Another school shooting (4 Viewers)

[General Malaise]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

I get what you are trying to say. The problem I have with any regulation, is that it needs to be effective. I don't want to see the same thing that happened with airport security after 9/11. The only people that that were effected by the legislation were law abiding citizens.

I've said before that I would give up all my guns tomorrow, if there was a guarantee it would stop the violence. Unfortunately, I get he feeling, the only thing that would change would be me owning guns.

There hasn't been another large scale attack since 9/11 due to a hijacked airline. Perhaps the changes to airport security have been a good thing. Sorry you've been inconvenienced trying to board your plane. We're trying to make our country safer.

Yeah, couldn't be that we actually lock the cockpit doors now, could it?

I think that's helped too. The point is, at least we did SOMETHING and those things have been effective, knock on wood. Meanwhile, children are dying at an alarming rate because unstable madmen have easy and plentiful access to guns and ammunition. And we've done NOTHING. Shameful.

We never had a 9/11 BEFORE 9/11. So who knows if it would have happened again if we didn't do "something." The TSA is an f'ing joke and ineffective. I'm glad they give you the warm fuzzies. That's what the gov't wants you to feel. As far as actual security, it's been demonstrated over and over that they don't do squat, except rupture passengers colostomy bags and fondle little girls in the name of "security.".

Gun nerds - this guy is on YOUR side. Embrace him. When I think of you, I think of him. That should scare you.

 

[timschochet]

1) What precisely do you hope to accomplish by requiring gun registration over the existing system and how do you plan to accomplish it?

I hope to make it more difficult for felons or mentally ill people to acquire guns. I also hope to help law enforcement by giving them the ability to trace guns. I think this will have an impact on gun crime in general, though NOT on school shootings.

2) What is a reasonable budget to achieve this system? Where does this money come from?

I have no idea, but the internet means that it will be a LOT cheaper than it once would have been, with very little paperwork necessary. Gun owners will pay for it through registration fees, but I don't believe these fees will be expensive: something like $25 per gun per year would take care of it.

3) What level of accuracy would you consider acceptable within this government run system?

I have no idea. What level of accuracy do we consider acceptable for the DMV? There will always be fraud of course. But as most people are law-abiding, it should be a workable system.

4) How do you plan to address inaccuracy in the system? (ie person is killed with gun that was reported stolen, former owner properly reported theft but wasn't accurate in database due to clerical/technical error and that individual is wrongly arrested/harassed) Who picks up the tab for resulting lawsuits?

Not sure what you mean by "harassed". If you report a gun as stolen, you get proof of that report at the time you make it. You show that report to the police and they leave you alone. Why is a lawsuit necessary?

5) How do you plan to enforce this requirement? (see CT registration failures)

Make it a law that if you're caught owning an unregistered gun, the police have the right to seize that gun and make you pay a huge fine to get it back. That should take care of it.

6) what does this do to curb the vast majority of crimes which are committed using weapons that, under this law, would not have been registered to the offender?

This seems to be a repeat of your first question. It's not going to necessarily "curb" all gun crimes. But it would make it more difficult I believe, for bad guys to get guns.

 

[General Malaise]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

I get what you are trying to say. The problem I have with any regulation, is that it needs to be effective. I don't want to see the same thing that happened with airport security after 9/11. The only people that that were effected by the legislation were law abiding citizens.

I've said before that I would give up all my guns tomorrow, if there was a guarantee it would stop the violence. Unfortunately, I get he feeling, the only thing that would change would be me owning guns.

There hasn't been another large scale attack since 9/11 due to a hijacked airline. Perhaps the changes to airport security have been a good thing. Sorry you've been inconvenienced trying to board your plane. We're trying to make our country safer.

yeah, that's all I was trying to say. I'm inconvenienced and I'm mad about it.

While there hasn't been another large scale attack, there have been cases where banned items have made its way onto a plane. So to question the overall effectiveness of airport security in regards to one incident, is fair.

Yes, but know EVERY single American KNOWS that it's going to take longer and be more of a PIA the get through airport security and perhaps that change in mindset has helped stave off another large scale attack. Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to make purchasing guns and bullets a longer, more difficult process that will involve screening.

I get what you are saying. But, I still stand by my statement that it only punishes the law abiding citizen. We've already seen that guns used in these mass shootings were purchased legally. So, the process would be ineffective. We also know that there is a large black market for guns and ammo. This again, won't be effected by the laws.

Instead of looking at the number of shootings. Look at where and how the weapons and ammo was acquired. More laws won't fix that problem.

If they were purchased legally, then the purchasing process needs to be fixed. Period. The end of this discussion.

 

[ATC1]

No, we'll use it to have registration.

To those calling for universal gun registration:

1) What precisely do you hope to accomplish by requiring gun registration over the existing system and how do you plan to accomplish it?

2) What is a reasonable budget to achieve this system? Where does this money come from?

3) What level of accuracy would you consider acceptable within this government run system?

4) How do you plan to address inaccuracy in the system? (ie person is killed with gun that was reported stolen, former owner properly reported theft but wasn't accurate in database due to clerical/technical error and that individual is wrongly arrested/harassed) Who picks up the tab for resulting lawsuits?

5) How do you plan to enforce this requirement? (see CT registration failures)

6) what does this do to curb the vast majority of crimes which are committed using weapons that, under this law, would not have been registered to the offender

Spoiler

• 39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member

• 39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source

• 0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show

• 1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market

• 3.8% of criminals purchased a gun from a pawn shop

• 8.3% of criminals actually bought their guns from retail outlets

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/11/where-criminals-get-their-guns/#ixzz34Lz2wT3n

Spoiler

Bump

The only pro argument I have heard on a registration is being able to see if current/newly felon criminals have guns. By law they should be jailed if they don't turn their guns in, correct?

 

[StrikeS2k]

I have to register my dog for reasons I don't understand. Not sure what good it is doing but it is a requirement. I don't really care if gun owners don't think this will help anything, welcome to the new normal, I don't feel bad for you if this happens. Something obviously needs to change at this point, may as well give it a try.

I get what you are trying to say. The problem I have with any regulation, is that it needs to be effective. I don't want to see the same thing that happened with airport security after 9/11. The only people that that were effected by the legislation were law abiding citizens.

I've said before that I would give up all my guns tomorrow, if there was a guarantee it would stop the violence. Unfortunately, I get he feeling, the only thing that would change would be me owning guns.

There hasn't been another large scale attack since 9/11 due to a hijacked airline. Perhaps the changes to airport security have been a good thing. Sorry you've been inconvenienced trying to board your plane. We're trying to make our country safer.

Yeah, couldn't be that we actually lock the cockpit doors now, could it?

I think that's helped too. The point is, at least we did SOMETHING and those things have been effective, knock on wood. Meanwhile, children are dying at an alarming rate because unstable madmen have easy and plentiful access to guns and ammunition. And we've done NOTHING. Shameful.

We never had a 9/11 BEFORE 9/11. So who knows if it would have happened again if we didn't do "something." The TSA is an f'ing joke and ineffective. I'm glad they give you the warm fuzzies. That's what the gov't wants you to feel. As far as actual security, it's been demonstrated over and over that they don't do squat, except rupture passengers colostomy bags and fondle little girls in the name of "security.".

Gun nerds - this guy is on YOUR side. Embrace him. When I think of you, I think of him. That should scare you.

1) I'm actual not a gun guy. Never owned one nor do I plan to. I do, however, realize that the knee jerk reactions you people keep throwing out there after each one of these incidents won't change a thing except make it more difficult and expensive for law abiding citizens to own a gun. Sorry, I'm that guy in the old "first they came for the jews mantra", except I'm willing to speak up before they come for something I actually covet.

2) The TSA is a joke. I'm glad they make you feel good though.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

What good does not registering them do? Is it so hard to fathom that tighter restrictions on guns might lessen the amount of these events? Will it completely eradicate them? Obviously, no. Will it help? Let's give it a shot, and find out. Just saying "What good will that do?" sure as #### aint helping.

Is it so hard to fathom that people using guns illegally will continue to use them illegally regardless of their registered status? The guns used in Sandy Hook were purchased legally and registered. That didn't stop ####.

So why have any laws at all? Why have traffic laws? People are just going to break them. Let's save everybody a lot of time and just do away with all traffic laws. Your argument is ignorant.

You must understand just how much political capital it would take to enact legislation like this. Wouldn't you rather save it for something that would be more effective in actually addressing the problem?

I understand. My point is we have officially moved past the point where we can continue to do nothing.

I agree, but the same point holds true- if we go through everything that it's going to take in order to just do "something", and it turns out to be ineffective (or worse), it's going to make it that much more difficult to pass something that actually could help.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying any particular idea would be ineffective, just that doing something for the sake of doing something isn't a good way to go about it.

I see your point, but please enlighten me as to how it can get worse.

There's a lot going on in this thread, but I'm not sure if "it" means gun violence in general or school specific, and I'm not sure which particular proposal to address.

In general though, as bad as things are, I think there's clearly room for them to be worse. You don't think there would be any pushback to legislation (see open carry TX or whatever it is)? I'm sure it would embolden the anti-government folk to stockpile and possibly go even crazier. Likewise there's a chance that having armed guards (or teachers) at schools would make things worse, not better. The black market would undoubtedly grow as well.

Oh, I know there would be pushback. There's pushback now. Which is why nothing happens. My point is "Why should I care that ammosexuals are inconvenienced?" The problem clearly isn't getting better by doing nothing, so who cares if there is pushback? Something needs to be done, whether everyone is on board, or not.

 

[[icon]]

Gun nerds> you can pretend to be army men on weekends by playing paintball. Same thing.

Watching the news conference on the shooting in Oregon just now, kid had an assault rifle described by the police as a AR-15 type weapon and a knife. He was wearing a bandolier carrying nine additional magazines full of ammunition amounting to hundreds of rounds.

He obtained the weapons from his family, the guns were apparently secured but was able to retrieve them anyway.

####### disgusting.

IT'S THEIR RIGHT, BRO

DON'T TREAD ON ME

And this guy is on the anti-gun side.

Embrace him.

 

[[icon]]

The only pro argument I have heard on a registration is being able to see if current/newly felon criminals have guns. By law they should be jailed if they don't turn their guns in, correct?

Perhaps.. and what on earth makes folks think that felons will comply with gun registration when history has shown that even law abiding citizens won't comply with gun registration (and law enforcement essentially refuses to waste resources trying to enforce it).

 

[Spanky267]

Pretty sure the 74 school shootings meme has been debunked.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/06/10/wow-journalist-attempts-to-debunk-anti-gun-groups-list-of-school-shootings-in-america-since-sandy-hook-heres-what-he-found/

Some of these shootings took place near a school or long after school hours. Many were gang related. Some were suicides by students or adults, there were no other victims in those cases. At least one invovled a gang member who accidentally shot herself. Some "school" shootings happened off campus, how that can be classified as a school shooting is beyond me. One was a case of self defense.

It appears that many of these so called school shootings were gang related events that began off campus and targeted speicific individuals on campus. Some were suicides in which only the person killing themself was the "victim". These are hardly the same a the Sandy Hook, Columbine or Virginia Tech tragedies. But the use of the term "school shooting" carries the conotation that this was a Sandy Hook like event.

Some of these events could have happened anywhere. For example the Feb 7 2013 shooting in Ft. Pierce. A criminal and police exchange shots in the parking lot of Indian River Community College. A student is caught in the cross fire and injured.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2013/feb/07/shooting-reported-indian-river-state-college/

There is no mention in the story of who accidentally shot the student, the gunman or police.

19 year old shot at 9pm in a field behind Hillside Elementary in San Leandro CA. This is listed as a School shooting? This from the story on the shooting is also interesting

"He was found on the school grounds, but again we don't want to assume for 100 percent that that is exactly where th crime occurred because he might have run to that spot," Sheriff's Department spokesperson J.D. Nelson said."

Student shot herself??? This is the same as Sandy Hook?

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/student-wounded-at-grady-high/nWbhG/

The April 13th shootng at Elizabeth City State University occurred during a Festival, open to the public, that was being held on Campus. My alma mater hosts public events on campus. If a shooting occurs during such an event should it be considered a school shooting even if the shooting was centered more around the event than the location of the event?

April 16th 2013 at Stillman College. A shooting of one man by another over an alleged gambling debt. Is it remarkable because it happened on a school campus?

Clarksville, TN August 15th 2013

A body found at 6am in a high school parking lot. Shooting believed to have occured aroung 2am. This is a school shooting?

http://www.wkrn.com/story/23144346/body-found-in-clarksville

I could go on. This "list" of school shootings was compiled for shock value only. Are there really school shootings? Absolutely. Do too many of them occur? Yes. Does hyperbole like that put forth by this group help solve the real problem? I dont think so.

I don't believe I said anywhere that it's "the same as Sandy Hook." It's a shooting at a school. Do "Sandy Hook" incidents concern me more than gang battles with guns, or gambling debt shootings? Yes. But that doesn't mean I'm unconcerned about kids getting caught in the crossfire. Are half of those on the list up to your criteria? A third? A quarter? Come up with a number.

I didnt look at every one of the shootings. But I will this evening. So far I have found 28 shootings that happened on or near a School, College or University campus that werent directly related to the school and were murders, suicides or gang related shootings that only made them remarkable because they happened on school grounds. Several occured when students were not on campus. There were 6 suicides and 4 gang related shootings. The other 18 shootings were not directly related to the school. In on case two teens fired a single shot on a school playground. In two others an adult was found dead on school property at a time when the school was closed. A couple of the incidents were attempted robberies that led to shootings. Some appear to be drug related. Several were murders. One of the murders was a stabbing and a shooting. One was a husband shooting the lover of his estranged wife in the school parking lot. Another was a man killing his fiance and attempting to make it look like a suicide. The body was found in the victims car in the University parking lot, but its possible the crime was commited elsewhere. Many of these incidents also centered on on campus college housing. 35 of the 74 shootings happened on college campuses, not elementary, middle or high schools. The dynamics of a college campus are very different from those of a high school, middle or elementary school.

Of the 33 shootings that I looked at 6 of them should be legitimately considered "school shootings" in the vein of Newtown, Columbine or primary or secondary school shootings. 6 were suicides that were remarkable only in that they occured on campus, but could have happened anywhere or could have been carried out by other means. 21 were crimes or gang related activities that also could have happened anywhere, the only thing that distinguishes these cases from other murders or robberies is the venue. It doesnt seem from the news reports that the school setting was crucial to the event. They could have happened in a park, the mall or any other gathering place.

 

[timschochet]

The only pro argument I have heard on a registration is being able to see if current/newly felon criminals have guns. By law they should be jailed if they don't turn their guns in, correct?

Perhaps.. and what on earth makes folks think that felons will comply with gun registration when history has shown that even law abiding citizens won't comply with gun registration (and law enforcement essentially refuses to waste resources trying to enforce it).

Is this question #7? What evidence do you have that law abiding people won't comply with registration? In Israel, nearly everyone owns a gun, and all guns are registered. Why should it be any different?

Your first point also makes no sense: nobody is suggesting that felons would comply with gun registration- the point is to make it more difficult for them to break the law- and also to restrict the mentally ill.

As to your last point- it is not necessary for law enforcement to enforce registration. All you need is the THREAT that if the police catch you possessing a gun that is not registered, it can be seized, you can be subject to fines,etc. That will be enough for most people.

 

[humpback]

What good does not registering them do? Is it so hard to fathom that tighter restrictions on guns might lessen the amount of these events? Will it completely eradicate them? Obviously, no. Will it help? Let's give it a shot, and find out. Just saying "What good will that do?" sure as #### aint helping.

Is it so hard to fathom that people using guns illegally will continue to use them illegally regardless of their registered status? The guns used in Sandy Hook were purchased legally and registered. That didn't stop ####.

So why have any laws at all? Why have traffic laws? People are just going to break them. Let's save everybody a lot of time and just do away with all traffic laws. Your argument is ignorant.

You must understand just how much political capital it would take to enact legislation like this. Wouldn't you rather save it for something that would be more effective in actually addressing the problem?

I understand. My point is we have officially moved past the point where we can continue to do nothing.

I agree, but the same point holds true- if we go through everything that it's going to take in order to just do "something", and it turns out to be ineffective (or worse), it's going to make it that much more difficult to pass something that actually could help.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying any particular idea would be ineffective, just that doing something for the sake of doing something isn't a good way to go about it.

I see your point, but please enlighten me as to how it can get worse.

There's a lot going on in this thread, but I'm not sure if "it" means gun violence in general or school specific, and I'm not sure which particular proposal to address.

In general though, as bad as things are, I think there's clearly room for them to be worse. You don't think there would be any pushback to legislation (see open carry TX or whatever it is)? I'm sure it would embolden the anti-government folk to stockpile and possibly go even crazier. Likewise there's a chance that having armed guards (or teachers) at schools would make things worse, not better. The black market would undoubtedly grow as well.

Oh, I know there would be pushback. There's pushback now. Which is why nothing happens. My point is "Why should I care that ammosexuals are inconvenienced?" The problem clearly isn't getting better by doing nothing, so who cares if there is pushback? Something needs to be done, whether everyone is on board, or not.

I meant pushback in terms of doing things that could make things worse, like having people stockpile guns and ammo and protesting in the streets, public places, or even schools with them. You don't think doing something like this could rally up the crazies?

You only addressed one part of the post as well- I'll say again that "doing nothing hasn't worked so let's just do something" isn't a good argument IMO.

 

[Wrigley]

The only pro argument I have heard on a registration is being able to see if current/newly felon criminals have guns. By law they should be jailed if they don't turn their guns in, correct?

Perhaps.. and what on earth makes folks think that felons will comply with gun registration when history has shown that even law abiding citizens won't comply with gun registration (and law enforcement essentially refuses to waste resources trying to enforce it).

Is this question #7? What evidence do you have that law abiding people won't comply with registration? In Israel, nearly everyone owns a gun, and all guns are registered. Why should it be any different?

Israel: 7.3 guns per 100 people

US: 89

 

[Sarnoff]

The only pro argument I have heard on a registration is being able to see if current/newly felon criminals have guns. By law they should be jailed if they don't turn their guns in, correct?

Perhaps.. and what on earth makes folks think that felons will comply with gun registration when history has shown that even law abiding citizens won't comply with gun registration (and law enforcement essentially refuses to waste resources trying to enforce it).

Is this question #7? What evidence do you have that law abiding people won't comply with registration? In Israel, nearly everyone owns a gun, and all guns are registered. Why should it be any different?

Israel: 7.3 guns per 100 people

US: 89

Please don't bother Tim with real facts when he can make up his own much more efficiently.

 

[[icon]]

The only pro argument I have heard on a registration is being able to see if current/newly felon criminals have guns. By law they should be jailed if they don't turn their guns in, correct?

Perhaps.. and what on earth makes folks think that felons will comply with gun registration when history has shown that even law abiding citizens won't comply with gun registration (and law enforcement essentially refuses to waste resources trying to enforce it).

Is this question #7? What evidence do you have that law abiding people won't comply with registration?

How would you rate the compliance of CT's gun registration mandate?

How would you rate law enforcement's compliance in enforcing this registration mandate?

 

[timschochet]

The only pro argument I have heard on a registration is being able to see if current/newly felon criminals have guns. By law they should be jailed if they don't turn their guns in, correct?

Perhaps.. and what on earth makes folks think that felons will comply with gun registration when history has shown that even law abiding citizens won't comply with gun registration (and law enforcement essentially refuses to waste resources trying to enforce it).

Is this question #7? What evidence do you have that law abiding people won't comply with registration? In Israel, nearly everyone owns a gun, and all guns are registered. Why should it be any different?

Israel: 7.3 guns per 100 people

US: 89

Really? LOL. I was told everyone owns one, but I never checked it out myself. It doesn't have any real bearing on my argument though. Most countries that have gun ownership also have some sort of registration, so Icon's argument that history shows that law-abiding people won't comply; I don't know where he's getting that from.

 

[timschochet]

The only pro argument I have heard on a registration is being able to see if current/newly felon criminals have guns. By law they should be jailed if they don't turn their guns in, correct?

Perhaps.. and what on earth makes folks think that felons will comply with gun registration when history has shown that even law abiding citizens won't comply with gun registration (and law enforcement essentially refuses to waste resources trying to enforce it).

Is this question #7? What evidence do you have that law abiding people won't comply with registration?

How would you rate the compliance of CT's gun registration mandate?

How would you rate law enforcement's compliance in enforcing this registration mandate?

I have no idea. I answered your question about enforcement though- if the law is written correctly, enforcement won't be necessary in most instances- you'll have voluntary compliance.

 

[[icon]]

How would you rate the compliance of CT's gun registration mandate?

How would you rate law enforcement's compliance in enforcing this registration mandate?

I have no idea. I answered your question about enforcement though- if the law is written correctly, enforcement won't be necessary in most instances- you'll have voluntary compliance.

That's my point... No... you won't. Look into CT's registration compliance.

Tens of thousands of gun owners are saying "F off"

All but 2 sheriffs departments have stated they refuse to enforcement

It's a flop... and a foreshadowing of what to expect on a national level. You thing the nice well mannered folks in CT are being uncooperative? Wait till you try to pass this in the south and midwest

It's a non starter... EVEN IF You can get the political capital to make it law on a national level, It will never be complied with or enforced.

 

[Doug B]

Interesting article on the subject

http://www.sott.net/article/279716-Nearly-every-mass-shooting-in-the-last-20-years-shares-one-thing-in-common-and-it-isnt-weapons

That article is way too simplisitic -- a long collection of anedotes impugning a dozen different medications with little background or nuance. Throws he baby out with the bathwater.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

How would you rate the compliance of CT's gun registration mandate?

How would you rate law enforcement's compliance in enforcing this registration mandate?

I have no idea. I answered your question about enforcement though- if the law is written correctly, enforcement won't be necessary in most instances- you'll have voluntary compliance.

That's my point... No... you won't. Look into CT's registration compliance.

So, if compliance can't be voluntary..............we shouldn't worry about legislation? The problem will solve itself?

Good to know.

 

[StrikeS2k]

How would you rate the compliance of CT's gun registration mandate?

How would you rate law enforcement's compliance in enforcing this registration mandate?

I have no idea. I answered your question about enforcement though- if the law is written correctly, enforcement won't be necessary in most instances- you'll have voluntary compliance.

That's my point... No... you won't. Look into CT's registration compliance.

Tens of thousands of gun owners are saying "F off"

All but 2 sheriffs departments have stated they refuse to enforcement

It's a flop... and a foreshadowing of what to expect on a national level. You thing the nice well mannered folks in CT are being uncooperative? Wait till you try to pass this in the south and midwest

It's a non starter... EVEN IF You can get the political capital to make it law on a national level, It will never be complied with or enforced.

Why would Tim want to actually be informed on an issue?

 

[timschochet]

I believe that most gun owners are law abiding, and that if the federal government tells them to register their guns, they will. I don't know anything about the CT example, but if it didn't work it's probably for reasons other than a simple refusal to abide by the law.

Although they can be plenty loud, only a very small minority of gun owners are paranoid about registration. Polls continually show otherwise. It astonishes me, Icon, that I seem to have a higher opinion of most gun owners than you do. I don't think they will knowingly disobey the law.

 

[Henry Ford]

Pretty sure the 74 school shootings meme has been debunked.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/06/10/wow-journalist-attempts-to-debunk-anti-gun-groups-list-of-school-shootings-in-america-since-sandy-hook-heres-what-he-found/

Some of these shootings took place near a school or long after school hours. Many were gang related. Some were suicides by students or adults, there were no other victims in those cases. At least one invovled a gang member who accidentally shot herself. Some "school" shootings happened off campus, how that can be classified as a school shooting is beyond me. One was a case of self defense.

It appears that many of these so called school shootings were gang related events that began off campus and targeted speicific individuals on campus. Some were suicides in which only the person killing themself was the "victim". These are hardly the same a the Sandy Hook, Columbine or Virginia Tech tragedies. But the use of the term "school shooting" carries the conotation that this was a Sandy Hook like event.

Some of these events could have happened anywhere. For example the Feb 7 2013 shooting in Ft. Pierce. A criminal and police exchange shots in the parking lot of Indian River Community College. A student is caught in the cross fire and injured.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2013/feb/07/shooting-reported-indian-river-state-college/

There is no mention in the story of who accidentally shot the student, the gunman or police.

19 year old shot at 9pm in a field behind Hillside Elementary in San Leandro CA. This is listed as a School shooting? This from the story on the shooting is also interesting

"He was found on the school grounds, but again we don't want to assume for 100 percent that that is exactly where th crime occurred because he might have run to that spot," Sheriff's Department spokesperson J.D. Nelson said."

Student shot herself??? This is the same as Sandy Hook?

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/student-wounded-at-grady-high/nWbhG/

The April 13th shootng at Elizabeth City State University occurred during a Festival, open to the public, that was being held on Campus. My alma mater hosts public events on campus. If a shooting occurs during such an event should it be considered a school shooting even if the shooting was centered more around the event than the location of the event?

April 16th 2013 at Stillman College. A shooting of one man by another over an alleged gambling debt. Is it remarkable because it happened on a school campus?

Clarksville, TN August 15th 2013

A body found at 6am in a high school parking lot. Shooting believed to have occured aroung 2am. This is a school shooting?

http://www.wkrn.com/story/23144346/body-found-in-clarksville

I could go on. This "list" of school shootings was compiled for shock value only. Are there really school shootings? Absolutely. Do too many of them occur? Yes. Does hyperbole like that put forth by this group help solve the real problem? I dont think so.

I don't believe I said anywhere that it's "the same as Sandy Hook." It's a shooting at a school. Do "Sandy Hook" incidents concern me more than gang battles with guns, or gambling debt shootings? Yes. But that doesn't mean I'm unconcerned about kids getting caught in the crossfire. Are half of those on the list up to your criteria? A third? A quarter? Come up with a number.

If you're concerned about "kids getting caught in the crossfire", the list should be reduced to the kinds of incidents in which that could happen. Shootings, on school property, during school hours, in the proximity of students. So, 'gunman comes on to campus, starts shooting the place up' counts, but 'teacher commits suicide with gun in parking lot at 2 AM' doesn't. Both get the "Another School Shooting!" media label but only one is of concern.

Then, if you're worried about averages, you should also examine other parcels of land of similar size. Like, is a 20-acre campus more dangerous than any 20 acres of land in the surrounding city over the same period of time? Upthread the stat was "1 out of 163 schools" will have some kind of gunfire incident over a student's 12-year career, but, is that high or low? Let's say in the suburbs, there are 4 homes per acre. So 80 homes could fit in the area of one 20-acre campus. 1 in 163 schools would then be like 1 in 13,000 homes. Will 1 in 13,000 homes be the location of a gun-related crime in the same 12-year period?

That's great, but we're explicitly saying we don't want to take away guns from people's homes, right? I mean, isn't that the whole thing?

Whereas there aren't supposed to be any guns on a campus, other than those carried by a police officer?

Aren't we then comparing apples to carburetors?

 

[timschochet]

But again, I really really hate discussing gun registration in this thread, because it implies that I believe it would have an impact on school shootings and it WILL NOT. And President Obama is being disingenuous by suggesting that it will.

It depresses me that reasonable people can never seem to have a reasonable discussion or debate about this issue. We always have to react emotionally to horrific scenes. I believe in gun registration, but if and when it finally happens it will probably be for all of the wrong reasons- an emotional response by the public to some REALLY horrible event, and a hopeless belief that this will solve the problem once and for all.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

But again, I really really hate discussing gun registration in this thread, because it implies that I believe it would have an impact on school shootings and it WILL NOT. And President Obama is being disingenuous by suggesting that it will.

It depresses me that reasonable people can never seem to have a reasonable discussion or debate about this issue. We always have to react emotionally to horrific scenes. I believe in gun registration, but if and when it finally happens it will probably be for all of the wrong reasons- an emotional response by the public to some REALLY horrible event, and a hopeless belief that this will solve the problem once and for all.

You know what also won't have any effect on reducing school shootings? Doing nothing.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Watching the news conference on the shooting in Oregon just now, kid had an assault rifle described by the police as a AR-15 type weapon and a knife. He was wearing a bandolier carrying nine additional magazines full of ammunition amounting to hundreds of rounds.

He obtained the weapons from his family, the guns were apparently secured but was able to retrieve them anyway.

####### disgusting.

Apparently they were not secured.

 

[shader]

There is no reason to own an assault rifle. None.

 

[[icon]]

I believe that most gun owners are law abiding, and that if the federal government tells them to register their guns, they will. I don't know anything about the CT example, but if it didn't work it's probably for reasons other than a simple refusal to abide by the law.

Although they can be plenty loud, only a very small minority of gun owners are paranoid about registration. Polls continually show otherwise. It astonishes me, Icon, that I seem to have a higher opinion of most gun owners than you do. I don't think they will knowingly disobey the law.

Dude.... go look at CT situation. Instead you've dropped another 10k words and half dozen posts effectively wallowing in your own ignorance of the situation while still hand-wringing about it.

Educate yourself. Please.

 

[[icon]]

There is no reason to own an assault rifle. None.

Define "assault rifle".

I enjoy sport shooting with my Colt LE 6900. Currently training at 200yds for recreational/competitive purposes.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

There is no reason to own an assault rifle. None.

There is no reason to own a Ferrari. None.

There is no reason to drink alcohol. None.

There is no reason to have a TV. None.

 

[timschochet]

I believe that most gun owners are law abiding, and that if the federal government tells them to register their guns, they will. I don't know anything about the CT example, but if it didn't work it's probably for reasons other than a simple refusal to abide by the law.

Although they can be plenty loud, only a very small minority of gun owners are paranoid about registration. Polls continually show otherwise. It astonishes me, Icon, that I seem to have a higher opinion of most gun owners than you do. I don't think they will knowingly disobey the law.

Dude.... go look at CT situation. Instead you've dropped another 10k words and half dozen posts effectively wallowing in your own ignorance of the situation while still hand-wringing about it.

Educate yourself. Please.

I will, thanks. But I doubt I will ever be convinced that somehow Americans are too immature or too paranoid to obey the law. We'll see though.

 

[timschochet]

But again, I really really hate discussing gun registration in this thread, because it implies that I believe it would have an impact on school shootings and it WILL NOT. And President Obama is being disingenuous by suggesting that it will.

It depresses me that reasonable people can never seem to have a reasonable discussion or debate about this issue. We always have to react emotionally to horrific scenes. I believe in gun registration, but if and when it finally happens it will probably be for all of the wrong reasons- an emotional response by the public to some REALLY horrible event, and a hopeless belief that this will solve the problem once and for all.

You know what also won't have any effect on reducing school shootings? Doing nothing.

You keep repeating this. What do you suggest will help with this problem? I want to do something, but I don't know what. Do you?

 

[johnnycakes]

There is no reason to own an assault rifle. None.

I disagree.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

But again, I really really hate discussing gun registration in this thread, because it implies that I believe it would have an impact on school shootings and it WILL NOT. And President Obama is being disingenuous by suggesting that it will.

It depresses me that reasonable people can never seem to have a reasonable discussion or debate about this issue. We always have to react emotionally to horrific scenes. I believe in gun registration, but if and when it finally happens it will probably be for all of the wrong reasons- an emotional response by the public to some REALLY horrible event, and a hopeless belief that this will solve the problem once and for all.

You know what also won't have any effect on reducing school shootings? Doing nothing.

You keep repeating this. What do you suggest will help with this problem? I want to do something, but I don't know what. Do you?

Let's start with a gun registry, and go from there. If it stopped one person from going on a rampage, that would be better than doing nothing, would it not?

 

[timschochet]

But again, I really really hate discussing gun registration in this thread, because it implies that I believe it would have an impact on school shootings and it WILL NOT. And President Obama is being disingenuous by suggesting that it will.

It depresses me that reasonable people can never seem to have a reasonable discussion or debate about this issue. We always have to react emotionally to horrific scenes. I believe in gun registration, but if and when it finally happens it will probably be for all of the wrong reasons- an emotional response by the public to some REALLY horrible event, and a hopeless belief that this will solve the problem once and for all.

You know what also won't have any effect on reducing school shootings? Doing nothing.

You keep repeating this. What do you suggest will help with this problem? I want to do something, but I don't know what. Do you?

Let's start with a gun registry, and go from there. If it stopped one person from going on a rampage, that would be better than doing nothing, would it not?

I'm in favor. However, I don't think it will stop that one person. But that doesn't matter, I agree with you anyhow.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

But again, I really really hate discussing gun registration in this thread, because it implies that I believe it would have an impact on school shootings and it WILL NOT. And President Obama is being disingenuous by suggesting that it will.

It depresses me that reasonable people can never seem to have a reasonable discussion or debate about this issue. We always have to react emotionally to horrific scenes. I believe in gun registration, but if and when it finally happens it will probably be for all of the wrong reasons- an emotional response by the public to some REALLY horrible event, and a hopeless belief that this will solve the problem once and for all.

You know what also won't have any effect on reducing school shootings? Doing nothing.

You keep repeating this. What do you suggest will help with this problem? I want to do something, but I don't know what. Do you?

Let's start with a gun registry, and go from there. If it stopped one person from going on a rampage, that would be better than doing nothing, would it not?

I'm in favor. However, I don't think it will stop that one person. But that doesn't matter, I agree with you anyhow.

I'm not saying that it will. I'm saying that it has a higher percentage chance of stopping someone than doing nothing does.

 

[Run It Up]

Watching the news conference on the shooting in Oregon just now, kid had an assault rifle described by the police as a AR-15 type weapon and a knife. He was wearing a bandolier carrying nine additional magazines full of ammunition amounting to hundreds of rounds.

He obtained the weapons from his family, the guns were apparently secured but was able to retrieve them anyway.

####### disgusting.

Apparently they were not secured.

The police said they were, which just suggests to me that the current suggestions for securing your guns are irresponsible at best and criminally negligent at worst. This entire discussion is pant####ting ######ed.

 

[GoFishTN]

Oh oh, I know I know -- I've got the answer to all this!

MORE GUNS!

Apparently it's more paperwork. That'll stop'em!

 

[SmoovySmoov]

Oh oh, I know I know -- I've got the answer to all this!

MORE GUNS!

Apparently it's more paperwork. That'll stop'em!

Well, we certainly can't have more paperwork. Let's just do nothing. I'm sure it will go away on it's own.

 

[[icon]]

Let's start with a gun registry, and go from there. If it stopped one person from going on a rampage, that would be better than doing nothing, would it not?

No, I personally don't think spending billions of dollars and adding to existing beaurocratic bloat while inconveniencing (and potentially harassing) millions of law abiding citizens. Not when there are much lower hanging fruit in countless other areas that hold much higher chances of success of saving lives... at a much lower cost and inconvenience to citizens.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

Let's start with a gun registry, and go from there. If it stopped one person from going on a rampage, that would be better than doing nothing, would it not?

No, I personally don't think spending billions of dollars and adding to existing beaurocratic bloat while inconveniencing (and potentially harassing) millions of law abiding citizens. Not when there are much lower hanging fruit in countless other areas that hold much higher chances of success of saving lives... at a much lower cost and inconvenience to citizens.

You know what's an inconvenience to me? Gun violence.

Also, I really could give two ####s about whether or not it's an inconvenience to you.

 

[GoFishTN]

Oh oh, I know I know -- I've got the answer to all this!

MORE GUNS!

Apparently it's more paperwork. That'll stop'em!

Well, we certainly can't have more paperwork. Let's just do nothing. I'm sure it will go away on it's own.

This is a mental health and socioeconomic issue. I'm sorry if that fact runs contrary to your apparent hoplophobia.

 

[Courtjester]

But again, I really really hate discussing gun registration in this thread, because it implies that I believe it would have an impact on school shootings and it WILL NOT. And President Obama is being disingenuous by suggesting that it will.

It depresses me that reasonable people can never seem to have a reasonable discussion or debate about this issue. We always have to react emotionally to horrific scenes. I believe in gun registration, but if and when it finally happens it will probably be for all of the wrong reasons- an emotional response by the public to some REALLY horrible event, and a hopeless belief that this will solve the problem once and for all.

You know what also won't have any effect on reducing school shootings? Doing nothing.

You keep repeating this. What do you suggest will help with this problem? I want to do something, but I don't know what. Do you?

Let's start with a gun registry, and go from there. If it stopped one person from going on a rampage, that would be better than doing nothing, would it not?

No, it would not.

If it takes a billion dollar (and that is probably on the low end of the cost scale) National Registry program and at the end of the year all it saves is 3 lives--that is not a good return on your investment.

I don't own a gun-probably never will, but think about it this way, approximately 250 kids die every year in bicycle accidents. So we are going to create a billion dollar program that when you purchase a kids bike, you get a personal human representative that goes along with it. Every time your kid rides that bike, this person goes along and just hovers over them. Makes sure their helmet is on, pads on. Just makes sure they never crash or go out into traffic. Well, guess what, we just stopped all those kids from dying in bike accidents and it only took 10 billion dollars. Would that be a worthwhile expense? I mean we saved 250 kids.

 

[Run It Up]

Let's start with a gun registry, and go from there. If it stopped one person from going on a rampage, that would be better than doing nothing, would it not?

No, I personally don't think spending billions of dollars and adding to existing beaurocratic bloat while inconveniencing (and potentially harassing) millions of law abiding citizens. Not when there are much lower hanging fruit in countless other areas that hold much higher chances of success of saving lives... at a much lower cost and inconvenience to citizens.

I think being dead is pretty inconvenient to most citizens.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

Oh oh, I know I know -- I've got the answer to all this!

MORE GUNS!

Apparently it's more paperwork. That'll stop'em!

Well, we certainly can't have more paperwork. Let's just do nothing. I'm sure it will go away on it's own.

This is a mental health and socioeconomic issue. I'm sorry if that fact runs contrary to your apparent hoplophobia.

That's part of it. But you know what else is part of it? The ease with which mentally ill people can get guns, and the lack of any legislation whatsoever. I'm sorry if that runs contrary to your papyrophobia.

 

[General Malaise]

Let's start with a gun registry, and go from there. If it stopped one person from going on a rampage, that would be better than doing nothing, would it not?

No, I personally don't think spending billions of dollars and adding to existing beaurocratic bloat while inconveniencing (and potentially harassing) millions of law abiding citizens. Not when there are much lower hanging fruit in countless other areas that hold much higher chances of success of saving lives... at a much lower cost and inconvenience to citizens.

Not going to read this entire thread (the fact that a thread on school shootings is 43 pages alone should be alarming alone) but do you suggest we do NOTHING to change the current culture?

Would you tell a parent of a school shooting to his/her face that your reticence to change gun laws is grounded in a foundation of not wanting to be inconvenienced? I don't think you would, but think about it for a second and let me know.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

But again, I really really hate discussing gun registration in this thread, because it implies that I believe it would have an impact on school shootings and it WILL NOT. And President Obama is being disingenuous by suggesting that it will.

It depresses me that reasonable people can never seem to have a reasonable discussion or debate about this issue. We always have to react emotionally to horrific scenes. I believe in gun registration, but if and when it finally happens it will probably be for all of the wrong reasons- an emotional response by the public to some REALLY horrible event, and a hopeless belief that this will solve the problem once and for all.

You know what also won't have any effect on reducing school shootings? Doing nothing.

You keep repeating this. What do you suggest will help with this problem? I want to do something, but I don't know what. Do you?

Let's start with a gun registry, and go from there. If it stopped one person from going on a rampage, that would be better than doing nothing, would it not?

No, it would not.

If it takes a billion dollar (and that is probably on the low end of the cost scale) National Registry program and at the end of the year all it saves is 3 lives--that is not a good return on your investment.

I don't own a gun-probably never will, but think about it this way, approximately 250 kids die every year in bicycle accidents. So we are going to create a billion dollar program that when you purchase a kids bike, you get a personal human representative that goes along with it. Every time your kid rides that bike, this person goes along and just hovers over them. Makes sure their helmet is on, pads on. Just makes sure they never crash or go out into traffic. Well, guess what, we just stopped all those kids from dying in bike accidents and it only took 10 billion dollars. Would that be a worthwhile expense? I mean we saved 250 kids.

Can you give me a figure on how much a human life is worth to you, then?

 

[joffer]

The next person that creates another horrible analogy for registering guns should be perma-banned.

 

[General Malaise]

But again, I really really hate discussing gun registration in this thread, because it implies that I believe it would have an impact on school shootings and it WILL NOT. And President Obama is being disingenuous by suggesting that it will.

It depresses me that reasonable people can never seem to have a reasonable discussion or debate about this issue. We always have to react emotionally to horrific scenes. I believe in gun registration, but if and when it finally happens it will probably be for all of the wrong reasons- an emotional response by the public to some REALLY horrible event, and a hopeless belief that this will solve the problem once and for all.

You know what also won't have any effect on reducing school shootings? Doing nothing.

You keep repeating this. What do you suggest will help with this problem? I want to do something, but I don't know what. Do you?

Let's start with a gun registry, and go from there. If it stopped one person from going on a rampage, that would be better than doing nothing, would it not?

No, it would not.

If it takes a billion dollar (and that is probably on the low end of the cost scale) National Registry program and at the end of the year all it saves is 3 lives--that is not a good return on your investment.

I don't own a gun-probably never will, but think about it this way, approximately 250 kids die every year in bicycle accidents. So we are going to create a billion dollar program that when you purchase a kids bike, you get a personal human representative that goes along with it. Every time your kid rides that bike, this person goes along and just hovers over them. Makes sure their helmet is on, pads on. Just makes sure they never crash or go out into traffic. Well, guess what, we just stopped all those kids from dying in bike accidents and it only took 10 billion dollars. Would that be a worthwhile expense? I mean we saved 250 kids.

How many kids would die each year if we didn't mandate helmet usage? When we were growing up, nobody used them. Not kids, not grown ups. Seems to me something changed in America along the way to make helmet usage - especially for kids - the norm in society. There was a change in culture and a change in thought. Helmets save lives. Not all lives, but I would bet they are the reason why your figure isn't higher.

If bike guy can change, so can gun guy.

 

[Courtjester]

But again, I really really hate discussing gun registration in this thread, because it implies that I believe it would have an impact on school shootings and it WILL NOT. And President Obama is being disingenuous by suggesting that it will.

It depresses me that reasonable people can never seem to have a reasonable discussion or debate about this issue. We always have to react emotionally to horrific scenes. I believe in gun registration, but if and when it finally happens it will probably be for all of the wrong reasons- an emotional response by the public to some REALLY horrible event, and a hopeless belief that this will solve the problem once and for all.

You know what also won't have any effect on reducing school shootings? Doing nothing.

You keep repeating this. What do you suggest will help with this problem? I want to do something, but I don't know what. Do you?

Let's start with a gun registry, and go from there. If it stopped one person from going on a rampage, that would be better than doing nothing, would it not?

No, it would not.

If it takes a billion dollar (and that is probably on the low end of the cost scale) National Registry program and at the end of the year all it saves is 3 lives--that is not a good return on your investment.

I don't own a gun-probably never will, but think about it this way, approximately 250 kids die every year in bicycle accidents. So we are going to create a billion dollar program that when you purchase a kids bike, you get a personal human representative that goes along with it. Every time your kid rides that bike, this person goes along and just hovers over them. Makes sure their helmet is on, pads on. Just makes sure they never crash or go out into traffic. Well, guess what, we just stopped all those kids from dying in bike accidents and it only took 10 billion dollars. Would that be a worthwhile expense? I mean we saved 250 kids.

Can you give me a figure on how much a human life is worth to you, then?

This isn't a matter of what a human life is worth. It is a matter of what is realistic. We live in a scary place. We have a planet that at any given moment could be crushed by a comet and it is game over. We drive to work and could be killed by a distracted person. We come into work and could be stabbed to death by a co-worker. We could have a heart attack because we were too addicted to donuts. Sometimes we can't control everything. I am a father and like i said, I don't own a gun, but I understand there are certain things in this life beyond our control. Just doing something to say, we did something is not productive and just throwing money at something is not the answer.

I mean again another example, a recent study showed that between 210,000 and 400,000 people die each year due to preventable medical mistakes in hospitals. So in just 10 days more people die due to this than in all the gun related homicides in a year. 10 days!! Do we see a screaming headline at CNN "Breaking news--another 1,100 killed today due to doctor mistakes?" No, because it doesn't advance an agenda and get ratings. I mean why not spend billions and billions on a project to fix this? It would save millions of lives (which would include way more children that are ever shot) in just a couple years vs. a few 10s of thousand. IMO, this would be a good cause to spend billions and billions of dollars on.

 

[General Malaise]

The next person that creates another horrible analogy for registering guns should be perma-banned.

I very much enjoyed the reference to Nazis coming for the Jews. That one has to be the winner here.