Any Sigma Alpha Epsilon brothers in here? (1 Viewer)

[B-Deep]

now, if i am not mistaken they were chanting about lynching folks, so i think the university argument that this was beyond free speech and moved into the threat/intimidation area where they have more leeway. But that would be something both sides would have to argue about.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

But someone said the President of the University should not be speaking out against it or going to demonstrations, and that i vehemently disagree with. I believe his job should be to speak out against things like this, even if it is legally protected but morally reprehensible. I think it is admirable that he does this.

I agree with you completely here.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

QUESTION for all greek/frat people

you are new to the frat, went through all the normal pledge crap and got in...hooray!!!

then you hear everyone doing this chant at an event, there was nothing racist or biggoted up to this point..

what do you do?

complain?

say nothing?

quit?

just curious

Current me: Gone and reporting this to the proper authorities.

18 year old me in 2015: I think just silently quit the fraternity.

18 year old me in 1988: Would not sing along. Would likely complain to some people in authority. Avoid all situations where this song is likely to be sung. Perhaps leave the fraternity.

As an 18 year old, I knew mostly right from wrong and I certainly never used or would have used the n-word. I don't think I had the confidence in 1988 to stand up to a bunch of people who seem so comfortable in their racism.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

now, if i am not mistaken they were chanting about lynching folks, so i think the university argument that this was beyond free speech and moved into the threat/intimidation area where they have more leeway. But that would be something both sides would have to argue about.

I think that's pretty clearly reaching.

Would any reasonable black student who saw the video think that they were being threatened with lynching?

If your answer is yes, what are your thoughts on posters with the expression "By Any Means Necessary" alongside pictures of guns? (A great example I'm stealing from Volokh because those are still commonplace).

 

[B-Deep]

QUESTION for all greek/frat people

you are new to the frat, went through all the normal pledge crap and got in...hooray!!!

then you hear everyone doing this chant at an event, there was nothing racist or biggoted up to this point..

what do you do?

complain?

say nothing?

quit?

just curious

Current me: Gone and reporting this to the proper authorities.

18 year old me in 2015: I think just silently quit the fraternity.

18 year old me in 1988: Would not sing along. Would likely complain to some people in authority. Avoid all situations where this song is likely to be sung. Perhaps leave the fraternity.

As an 18 year old, I knew mostly right from wrong and I certainly never used or would have used the n-word. I don't think I had the confidence in 1988 to stand up to a bunch of people who seem so comfortable in their racism.

very reasonable

i hate the hell out of what they did,

but i am trying to figure out how many 18 year olds would stand up and do something about it

i think the answer is not many

and i think leaving the frat is "doing something' I was not in a Frat, but my outsider impression is that leaving a frat is not easy, because you worked to get in and you feel connected to the others.

 

[Keerock]

QUESTION for all greek/frat people

you are new to the frat, went through all the normal pledge crap and got in...hooray!!!

then you hear everyone doing this chant at an event, there was nothing racist or biggoted up to this point..

what do you do?

complain?

say nothing?

quit?

just curious

Current me: Gone and reporting this to the proper authorities.

18 year old me in 2015: I think just silently quit the fraternity.

18 year old me in 1988: Would not sing along. Would likely complain to some people in authority. Avoid all situations where this song is likely to be sung. Perhaps leave the fraternity.

As an 18 year old, I knew mostly right from wrong and I certainly never used or would have used the n-word. I don't think I had the confidence in 1988 to stand up to a bunch of people who seem so comfortable in their racism.

This is me exactly.

 

[Keerock]

QUESTION for all greek/frat people

you are new to the frat, went through all the normal pledge crap and got in...hooray!!!

then you hear everyone doing this chant at an event, there was nothing racist or biggoted up to this point..

what do you do?

complain?

say nothing?

quit?

just curious

Current me: Gone and reporting this to the proper authorities.

18 year old me in 2015: I think just silently quit the fraternity.

18 year old me in 1988: Would not sing along. Would likely complain to some people in authority. Avoid all situations where this song is likely to be sung. Perhaps leave the fraternity.

As an 18 year old, I knew mostly right from wrong and I certainly never used or would have used the n-word. I don't think I had the confidence in 1988 to stand up to a bunch of people who seem so comfortable in their racism.

very reasonable

i hate the hell out of what they did,

but i am trying to figure out how many 18 year olds would stand up and do something about it

i think the answer is not many

I think you're right. I just hope that I would have, and that my kids do have the stones to at a minimum "not go along with the crowd". Peer pressure is a #####...

 

[Idiot Boxer]

QUESTION for all greek/frat people

you are new to the frat, went through all the normal pledge crap and got in...hooray!!!

then you hear everyone doing this chant at an event, there was nothing racist or biggoted up to this point..

what do you do?

complain?

say nothing?

quit?

just curious

Current me: Gone and reporting this to the proper authorities.

18 year old me in 2015: I think just silently quit the fraternity.

18 year old me in 1988: Would not sing along. Would likely complain to some people in authority. Avoid all situations where this song is likely to be sung. Perhaps leave the fraternity.

As an 18 year old, I knew mostly right from wrong and I certainly never used or would have used the n-word. I don't think I had the confidence in 1988 to stand up to a bunch of people who seem so comfortable in their racism.

very reasonable

i hate the hell out of what they did,

but i am trying to figure out how many 18 year olds would stand up and do something about it

i think the answer is not many

While there is some complicity in not standing up and doing something about it, it is a far cry from singing along or even leading the chant.

This would have tortured me as an 18 year old, particularly if up until that point all the guys seemed like good dudes and I'd formed friendships.

 

[B-Deep]

QUESTION for all greek/frat people

you are new to the frat, went through all the normal pledge crap and got in...hooray!!!

then you hear everyone doing this chant at an event, there was nothing racist or biggoted up to this point..

what do you do?

complain?

say nothing?

quit?

just curious

Current me: Gone and reporting this to the proper authorities.

18 year old me in 2015: I think just silently quit the fraternity.

18 year old me in 1988: Would not sing along. Would likely complain to some people in authority. Avoid all situations where this song is likely to be sung. Perhaps leave the fraternity.

As an 18 year old, I knew mostly right from wrong and I certainly never used or would have used the n-word. I don't think I had the confidence in 1988 to stand up to a bunch of people who seem so comfortable in their racism.

very reasonable

i hate the hell out of what they did,

but i am trying to figure out how many 18 year olds would stand up and do something about it

i think the answer is not many

I think you're right. I just hope that I would have, and that my kids do have the stones to at a minimum "not go along with the crowd". Peer pressure is a #####...

well we now have another tool to use when teaching our kids. These days with anything you do potentially going viral, if you go along with the crowd on something that is wrong it is not nearly as anonymous as it used to be. This video is a good example.

 

[B-Deep]

QUESTION for all greek/frat people

you are new to the frat, went through all the normal pledge crap and got in...hooray!!!

then you hear everyone doing this chant at an event, there was nothing racist or biggoted up to this point..

what do you do?

complain?

say nothing?

quit?

just curious

Current me: Gone and reporting this to the proper authorities.

18 year old me in 2015: I think just silently quit the fraternity.

18 year old me in 1988: Would not sing along. Would likely complain to some people in authority. Avoid all situations where this song is likely to be sung. Perhaps leave the fraternity.

As an 18 year old, I knew mostly right from wrong and I certainly never used or would have used the n-word. I don't think I had the confidence in 1988 to stand up to a bunch of people who seem so comfortable in their racism.

very reasonable

i hate the hell out of what they did,

but i am trying to figure out how many 18 year olds would stand up and do something about it

i think the answer is not many

While there is some complicity in not standing up and doing something about it, it is a far cry from singing along or even leading the chant.

This would have tortured me as an 18 year old, particularly if up until that point all the guys seemed like good dudes and I'd formed friendships.

i agree all around, and that's kind of what i was thinking about today.

trying to balance how much i hate what each person did with the challenges of doing what is right in a situation like this.

 

[Foosball God]

QUESTION for all greek/frat people

you are new to the frat, went through all the normal pledge crap and got in...hooray!!!

then you hear everyone doing this chant at an event, there was nothing racist or biggoted up to this point..

what do you do?

complain?

say nothing?

quit?

just curious

Current me: Gone and reporting this to the proper authorities.

18 year old me in 2015: I think just silently quit the fraternity.

18 year old me in 1988: Would not sing along. Would likely complain to some people in authority. Avoid all situations where this song is likely to be sung. Perhaps leave the fraternity.

As an 18 year old, I knew mostly right from wrong and I certainly never used or would have used the n-word. I don't think I had the confidence in 1988 to stand up to a bunch of people who seem so comfortable in their racism.

very reasonable

i hate the hell out of what they did,

but i am trying to figure out how many 18 year olds would stand up and do something about it

i think the answer is not many

I think you're right. I just hope that I would have, and that my kids do have the stones to at a minimum "not go along with the crowd". Peer pressure is a #####...

well we now have another tool to use when teaching our kids. These days with anything you do potentially going viral, if you go along with the crowd on something that is wrong it is not nearly as anonymous as it used to be. This video is a good example.

Yeah, the talks we need to have with our kids now are so different. It used to just be don't do something dumb and get arrested. Now it is don't do anything dumb at all because somebody will be taking video with their cellphone and it might go viral and f up your life for a good while.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

I don't know that cameras change the message about how I want my kids to act.

Dumb I don't care about. Hateful, discriminatory, ignorant, misogynistic, bigoted...I hope they don't do any of those things, EVER. Regardless of cameras being around. Dumb. I can live with dumb.

 

[Foosball God]

I don't know that cameras change the message about how I want my kids to act.

Dumb I don't care about. Hateful, discriminatory, ignorant, misogynistic, bigoted...I hope they don't do any of those things, EVER. Regardless of cameras being around. Dumb. I can live with dumb.

Dumb can mean even being in the same place as people doing hateful, etc. acts. All you need to do now is be caught in the same frame and you'll get branded with the rest of them.

It is hard enough for kids stand up for themselves, as you said I don't think I would have had the balls to stand up and say something. I would have let it happen and then distanced myself from that group. Now, you pretty much have to get out right away. There isn't as much opportunity to do it quietly.

Maybe that is a good thing and it will make more kids leave or stand up at the moment and highlight the despicable acts, but peer pressure is hard to overcome.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

I don't know that cameras change the message about how I want my kids to act.

Dumb I don't care about. Hateful, discriminatory, ignorant, misogynistic, bigoted...I hope they don't do any of those things, EVER. Regardless of cameras being around. Dumb. I can live with dumb.

Dumb can mean even being in the same place as people doing hateful, etc. acts. All you need to do now is be caught in the same frame and you'll get branded with the rest of them.

It is hard enough for kids stand up for themselves, as you said I don't think I would have had the balls to stand up and say something. I would have let it happen and then distanced myself from that group. Now, you pretty much have to get out right away. There isn't as much opportunity to do it quietly.

Maybe that is a good thing and it will make more kids leave or stand up at the moment and highlight the despicable acts, but peer pressure is hard to overcome.

True. I suppose.

I think of dumb as gluing some googly eyes to a tube sock, sliding it over your bangers and mash and running around campus shouting I'm a pretty ostrich.

 

[Tom Servo]

Right.

Because of the first amendment, public universities can't, as a general principle, punish students for voicing unpopular opinions. They can expel you for bullying other people, making threats of violence, and stuff like that, and that's where a person might have a legitimate argument with regards to this particular song. (Since it was sung in a private setting and entered the public sphere only because it was recorded presumably without the group's knowledge or consent, I think any such argument faces an uphill battle, but you get the idea). "I don't like black people" is a highly unpopular opinion that deserves all the scorn and shaming that comes its way, but it's also constitutionally protected under any reasonable interpretation of the first amendment in my view.

The legality is a little beside the point though. A private university would be legally free to expel students over stuff like this. They still shouldn't. Broadly speaking, college-aged students are kind of stupid. They're pushing boundaries, playing around with their identities, and generally not thinking much beyond the next 24 hours. There's a good reason why nobody ever uses the adjective "adolescent" as a compliment. Institutions of higher learning should be comparatively tolerant when it comes to these kinds of things and not hand out the death penalty for infractions that would fix themselves with better education. If anybody is in need of a good liberal arts education, it's the guys on the SAE bus, kind of like how churches are built for sinners. This case is admittedly an extreme one, but that makes it useful for illustrating my position. I literally can't think of anything anybody could say or write -- other than something like "There's a bomb in Center Hall" -- that should trigger expulsion.

That's what makes these "speech codes" at some universities especially noxious.

 

[General Malaise]

So, the SAE Alumni have hired the same attorney that represented Timothy McVeigh.

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The alumni of a fraternity chapter at the University of Oklahoma shut down after members were caught engaging in a racist chant have hired a high-profile Oklahoma attorney to represent them and have severed communications with its national headquarters.


Attorney Stephen Jones, who gained national prominence as the attorney for convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, confirmed Friday that he was hired by alumni members who served on the board of the university's local Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter.

Jones said he does not represent two members of the fraternity who were expelled from the university after they were caught on video leading a racist chant that referenced lynching and said African-Americans would never be allowed as members.

He said he was planning to meet with his clients Friday, and he couldn't say whether he would represent current members of the fraternity who are being investigated by university officials for their role in the chant.

"Obviously there are issues about First Amendment rights, due process and real estate issues, but we're still gathering documents," said Jones, who has also represented several Oklahoma politicians in high-profile corruption cases.

A spokesman for the fraternity's national headquarters said Friday that officials with the Oklahoma chapter have stopped communicating with them

.

I don't know that hiring McVeigh's attorney is winning friends and influencing others.

 

[Tom Servo]

So, the SAE Alumni have hired the same attorney that represented Timothy McVeigh.

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The alumni of a fraternity chapter at the University of Oklahoma shut down after members were caught engaging in a racist chant have hired a high-profile Oklahoma attorney to represent them and have severed communications with its national headquarters.


Attorney Stephen Jones, who gained national prominence as the attorney for convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, confirmed Friday that he was hired by alumni members who served on the board of the university's local Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter.

Jones said he does not represent two members of the fraternity who were expelled from the university after they were caught on video leading a racist chant that referenced lynching and said African-Americans would never be allowed as members.

He said he was planning to meet with his clients Friday, and he couldn't say whether he would represent current members of the fraternity who are being investigated by university officials for their role in the chant.

"Obviously there are issues about First Amendment rights, due process and real estate issues, but we're still gathering documents," said Jones, who has also represented several Oklahoma politicians in high-profile corruption cases.

A spokesman for the fraternity's national headquarters said Friday that officials with the Oklahoma chapter have stopped communicating with them

.

I don't know that hiring McVeigh's attorney is winning friends and influencing others.

John Adams defended the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

So, the SAE Alumni have hired the same attorney that represented Timothy McVeigh.

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The alumni of a fraternity chapter at the University of Oklahoma shut down after members were caught engaging in a racist chant have hired a high-profile Oklahoma attorney to represent them and have severed communications with its national headquarters.


Attorney Stephen Jones, who gained national prominence as the attorney for convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, confirmed Friday that he was hired by alumni members who served on the board of the university's local Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter.

Jones said he does not represent two members of the fraternity who were expelled from the university after they were caught on video leading a racist chant that referenced lynching and said African-Americans would never be allowed as members.

He said he was planning to meet with his clients Friday, and he couldn't say whether he would represent current members of the fraternity who are being investigated by university officials for their role in the chant.

"Obviously there are issues about First Amendment rights, due process and real estate issues, but we're still gathering documents," said Jones, who has also represented several Oklahoma politicians in high-profile corruption cases.

A spokesman for the fraternity's national headquarters said Friday that officials with the Oklahoma chapter have stopped communicating with them

.

I don't know that hiring McVeigh's attorney is winning friends and influencing others.

John Adams defended the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre.

And did it very successfully.

 

[B-Deep]

What is odd is that Attorney does not represent the expelled students, and was hired by alumni.

I wonder what will come of this? The frat itself revoked their charter, i wonder if SAE OK is going to sue the whole Frat? I assume they'll sue the University as well.

 

[Lutherman2112]

Bad news for SAE National:

Speaking outside Evans Hall on OU's campus, Boren said an investigation into the SAE incident revealed that members learned the racist chant four years ago on a national SAE leadership cruise and brought it back to campus.
Boren said the chant had been taught to members and pledges at both formal and informal events at the university. He called the song "widely known and informally shared" among national SAE leadership.
As a result of the findings, Boren said he has written a letter to the executive director of the national SAE fraternity urging him to look into how many other chapters were taught the racist chant and to take steps to ensure that a similar event will never happen again.

 

[wilked]

I can say 100% I never heard it or anything close within the fraternity, or others I visited in the northeast

 

[Henry Ford]

So, the SAE Alumni have hired the same attorney that represented Timothy McVeigh.

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The alumni of a fraternity chapter at the University of Oklahoma shut down after members were caught engaging in a racist chant have hired a high-profile Oklahoma attorney to represent them and have severed communications with its national headquarters.


Attorney Stephen Jones, who gained national prominence as the attorney for convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, confirmed Friday that he was hired by alumni members who served on the board of the university's local Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter.

Jones said he does not represent two members of the fraternity who were expelled from the university after they were caught on video leading a racist chant that referenced lynching and said African-Americans would never be allowed as members.

He said he was planning to meet with his clients Friday, and he couldn't say whether he would represent current members of the fraternity who are being investigated by university officials for their role in the chant.

"Obviously there are issues about First Amendment rights, due process and real estate issues, but we're still gathering documents," said Jones, who has also represented several Oklahoma politicians in high-profile corruption cases.

A spokesman for the fraternity's national headquarters said Friday that officials with the Oklahoma chapter have stopped communicating with them

.

I don't know that hiring McVeigh's attorney is winning friends and influencing others.

Well, it sure worked out well for McVeigh. Sounds like a great hire.

 

[Two Deep]

She apparently still has a job.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/black-professor-regrets-comments-critical-of-white-students/ar-BBjGH7v?ocid=DELLDHP

Black professor regrets comments critical of white students

In other recent tweets, she said, "Deal with your white (expletive), white people. slavery is a (asterisk)YALL(asterisk) thing," and "Every MLK week I commit myself to not spending a dime in white-owned businesses. And every year I find it nearly impossible."

 

[Zegras11]

Very cool story from UCLA

http://www.littlethings.com/frat-brothers-surprise-lexi-vts/?utm_source=LTts&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=inspiring

 

[Keerock]

My son just pledged SAE

 

[Mr.Pack]

Very cool story from UCLA

http://www.littlethings.com/frat-brothers-surprise-lexi-vts/?utm_source=LTts&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=inspiring

I personally know a few SAE's that my daughter went to College with a couple years ago, and these guys would have done the same thing.

It's not the frat that's bad, it's the clowns that can make it bad.

 

[PIK95]

Chi Phi was mine. And PIK....

 

[General Malaise]

SAE racist kid from my HS. Not surprising to me at all.

 

[cstu]

I'd be more surprised if OU students didn't engage in racist chants.

 

[Nemesis]

I can say 100% I never heard it or anything close within the fraternity, or others I visited in the northeast

I never heard anything like this song or any racist sentiment when I was at college around 1990 (SAE in the state of Florida)

But, recently, I went back to the campus for a football game and some SAE alumni had a get together before the game and was invited back to the house after the game. After the game, I went and there was a large party going on being attended by fraternity members, girls, and non-fraternity members (imagine that). While there, I did notice that the current house has a couple of black members, which I was encouraged to see............but I was more uncomfortable with the music that was being played as almost every song had elements of a demeaning nature. I feel this is moreso an attack we've all read about certain parts of the music industry having Black on black name calling in every other verse, very demeaning themes to women, drug references that aren't even subtle, and general "shock value" songs. I'm not a prude or naïve to think this is an isolated event as I feel this music is probably played at parties all across this campus and other campuses and sometimes it is just played "because it is the popular thing right now" or has a decent beat to it.

Needless to say, we didn't stay very long. But it does make me wonder if this part of the popular music culture today has made some people feel it is ok to also make the same type of statements that they hear. (don't get me wrong as I don't condone or give anyone a pass as an excuse that makes racist statements)

 

[flapgreen]

frat guys

 

[Zegras11]

Very cool story from UCLA

http://www.littlethings.com/frat-brothers-surprise-lexi-vts/?utm_source=LTts&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=inspiring

I personally know a few SAE's that my daughter went to College with a couple years ago, and these guys would have done the same thing.

It's not the frat that's bad, it's the clowns that can make it bad.

Like I said from the start, what happened at OU this wasn't a frat thing, it's a cultural thing in that part of the country.

 

[Zegras11]

My son just pledged SAE

Where at?

 

[Keerock]

My son just pledged SAE

Where at?

Sparty