Are the colts copying the Patriots Offense? (1 Viewer)

[Shutout]

This kind of stems from bits and pieces I keep reading from Colts camp, beat writers, etc,

but I keep seeing this information that says the colts are going to be a "base 2TE" offense and it goes as far as to say that Dwayne Allen is operating a Hernandez-like role.

But then there are pieces where it says Bruce Arians is using Collie in the "Brown" role from Pitt, etc.

But it always comes back to specific mentions of a Base 2TE offense.

Was Pittsburgh, with Arians, considered a Base 2TE offense? It wasn't, was it?

Are there other similarities that might give this information some legs to it, such as the type of guys they have drafted this year being guys that look more likely to fill those Welker-like and TE roles Vs. drafting a WR that would be the typical big WR that a lot of teams use (but New England doesn't)?

Anyone have info that might support or debunk this info?

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

well, arians was more of a 3/4 wr set guy, as far as I know, but pagano is from baltimore, and all the rumors were that they were trying to get gronk/hernandez, but had to settle for a dickson/pitta after the pats sniped them -- maybe they relied too much on adp.

anyway, the hot story is that all these teams are moving to 2 te to emulate the pats, just like they have been moving to the 3-4 to emulate some of the more successful defenses.

there's probably some element of truth to it, but adopting a particular scheme doesn't mean you'll adopt a set of stats -- players still have to play.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Could be wrong but didnt the Colts use a lot of 2-TE offense in years past? I remember seeing Clark in the slot a lot of times

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Could be wrong but didnt the Colts use a lot of 2-TE offense in years past? I remember seeing Clark in the slot a lot of times

clark was definitely used as a receiver, and I think tamme said he was a blocker on maybe 60% of snaps, but the offense never really utilized 2 te outside of having a second guy in there to block, as far as I know.contrast this to the pats, where gronk had 124 targets and hernandez was a receiver on 70% of snaps.anyway, it's a whole new organization now.

 

[werdnoynek]

This kind of stems from bits and pieces I keep reading from Colts camp, beat writers, etc,

but I keep seeing this information that says the colts are going to be a "base 2TE" offense and it goes as far as to say that Dwayne Allen is operating a Hernandez-like role.

But then there are pieces where it says Bruce Arians is using Collie in the "Brown" role from Pitt, etc.

But it always comes back to specific mentions of a Base 2TE offense.

Was Pittsburgh, with Arians, considered a Base 2TE offense? It wasn't, was it?

Are there other similarities that might give this information some legs to it, such as the type of guys they have drafted this year being guys that look more likely to fill those Welker-like and TE roles Vs. drafting a WR that would be the typical big WR that a lot of teams use (but New England doesn't)?

Anyone have info that might support or debunk this info?

yes and no i guess. the base 2TE offense isn't anything new to the colts... however because pagano probably has nightmares of going up against gronk and hernandez from being in baltimore and some consider this a copy cat league, so it's probably somewhat true. not to mention i think pagano pretty much admitted to it after the draft. anyway, some could argue that in the late 90's the colts ran a base 2TE offense with marcus pollard and ken digler (see this article) and that continued on when they drafted dallas clark in '03 for a couple of years later. so like that article says they're actually going back to their roots and the base 2TE offense isn't really anything innovative or new, it's been around for a long time for NFL standards.

i don't think arians ran a base 2TE offense in pittsburgh. he's known for utilizing and getting the best out of what he has for players available to him... who knows if this was the colt's plan the whole time or if they were just drafting the best players available and they ended up with 2 TE's. other than having 2 TE's on the field i don't really see many other similarities in the personnel of the two teams... and since after the draft people have been saying this and pagano/arians haven't denied it.

it could go either way...

 

[BallparkFrank]

Probably more a case of building your offense around your most talented players than anything else.

 

[Shutout]

Probably more a case of building your offense around your most talented players than anything else.

That's part of why I brought this to the forums because the Colts were in a position to basically draft a lot of different types of talents and chose guys that seem to fit the Pats model. I mean, they could have been going after bigger WRs and moving aroudn, etc, and they ended up with two TEs very early, a bunch of shifty, smaller WRs, etc.Just interesting to me.

 

[-jb-]

It kind of speaks to the notion that the league at large is becoming more about speed. We're seeing smaller lineman, linebackers, receivers, etc., and this is an example of two new TEs that are fast. To your point, shutout, it is interesting that they are both TEs

 

[Vicktimized]

Yes and no.

I think a lot of what Luck's offense in Indy will do will look a lot like what NE does.

That said, I also think Belichick took a lot of the principles in his current offense from LUCK'S offense at Stanford. Or actually, Harbaugh's. Same principles of having TE's that can run out there to split out wide or move in tight, depending on personnel, and either toss it around or bash your brains in via the run if the defense goes to dime.

 

[Raider Nation]

Could be wrong but didnt the Colts use a lot of 2-TE offense in years past? I remember seeing Clark in the slot a lot of times

Yep. Check Pro Football Reference. Every year since 2004, they had two TEs getting significant action. There is really nothing "new" in the NFL anymore. 2 TE sets have been used forever. It's just that New England does it better than anyone else has.

 

[Shutout]

Could be wrong but didnt the Colts use a lot of 2-TE offense in years past? I remember seeing Clark in the slot a lot of times

Yep. Check Pro Football Reference. Every year since 2004, they had two TEs getting significant action. There is really nothing "new" in the NFL anymore. 2 TE sets have been used forever. It's just that New England does it better than anyone else has.

Granted, we know that the Colts LINED up in 2TE, but I'm talking more about actually Utilizing them both. The Colts in the past were about Clark and the outside Wrs and some of the slot action as coverage dictated but they used that 2nd TE as a blocker more than anything. I'm referring more to a team that actually focusses on using the two TEs like New England does, with both seeing significant targets, and working the field from the inside out, more on the inside receivers than the big outside WRS.

 

[Raider Nation]

Could be wrong but didnt the Colts use a lot of 2-TE offense in years past? I remember seeing Clark in the slot a lot of times

Yep. Check Pro Football Reference. Every year since 2004, they had two TEs getting significant action. There is really nothing "new" in the NFL anymore. 2 TE sets have been used forever. It's just that New England does it better than anyone else has.

Granted, we know that the Colts LINED up in 2TE, but I'm talking more about actually Utilizing them both. The Colts in the past were about Clark and the outside Wrs and some of the slot action as coverage dictated but they used that 2nd TE as a blocker more than anything. I'm referring more to a team that actually focusses on using the two TEs like New England does, with both seeing significant targets, and working the field from the inside out, more on the inside receivers than the big outside WRS.

Go all the way back to 2004, before anyone ever heard of Gronk or Hernandez.Clark and Pollard each started 13 games and each had at least 5 TDs. Again, New England has taken this to a whole new level because both guys are such amazing weapons, but having two TEs on the field at the same time - either of whom is capable of being an effective pass catcher - is not a new concept.

 

[DawnBTVS]

One thing to remember is that just because a team utilizes a 2 TE offense isn't necessarily indicative that they'll be used the same way that New England uses a 2 TE offense.

New England may use a "2 TE" set with a conventional 3 WR look but have the 2nd TE split wide as the slot WR instead. They may also use a Singleback look with Hernandez in the backfield which would be a "2 TE" personnel package simply because Hernandez is listed as a TE.

Most teams primarily run their 2 TE looks with both TEs on the LOS in a three point stance. One of the reasons that NE is so successful is that they use "2 TE" personnel but more often than not they mirror a variety of different formations as opposed to conventional 2 TE looks.

 

[Shutout]

One thing to remember is that just because a team utilizes a 2 TE offense isn't necessarily indicative that they'll be used the same way that New England uses a 2 TE offense.New England may use a "2 TE" set with a conventional 3 WR look but have the 2nd TE split wide as the slot WR instead. They may also use a Singleback look with Hernandez in the backfield which would be a "2 TE" personnel package simply because Hernandez is listed as a TE.Most teams primarily run their 2 TE looks with both TEs on the LOS in a three point stance. One of the reasons that NE is so successful is that they use "2 TE" personnel but more often than not they mirror a variety of different formations as opposed to conventional 2 TE looks.

This is much more of what I'm asking (I think Raider and I are missing the boat...I know guys have lined up on the field...I'm talking more about the intended USE, e.g., are the Colts COPYING the Pats).That is what is interesting to me in the Colts case, because they have these guys, like Allen, that are specifically being reported as being used "just like hernandez"...maybe that is on line, or in a backfield, or motions out...But I don't remember Pitt ever doing these things like this when Arians was there..And how odd is it that you can't find a Pitt fan to comment on something around here?

 

[Buffaloes]

Luck worked in A LOT of 2 TE sets at Stanford. More teams are running w/ 2 TE sets in light of NE's recent success, but I wouldn't say the Colts are 'copying' NE. Probably has a bit to do with what Luck is familiar with too.

ETA: Luck's TEs at Stanford lined up in the more traditional tight sets as opposed to lining up in the slot IIRC.

 

[Chazzhawk]

Everyone is, once something works everyone copies it until it doesn't work. Remember the Tampa 2 defense. The Ravens, Lions, Houston, Panthers, 49ers, all used the 2TE sets last year and sent 2 good passing tight ends out of routes. This year you can probably add the Colts, Broncos, Redskins, Vikings, Chiefs to the list too.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I don't get this vibe at all. A lot of what Pagano has been preaching is run the football and stop the run, and I think the 2 TE sets reflect that. Stanford's offense utilized multiple tight ends but couldn't have been any more different than what the Patriots run. Stanford was extremely run-heavy while the Pats are extremely pass-heavy. I don't expect the Colts offense to look like New England's at all this year.