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Ataturk - Why Is He Not More Celebrated in the West? (1 Viewer)

RhymesMcJuice

Footballguy
I had only passing knowledge of Ataturk (Mustafa Kemal) until I watched the documentary Ataturk: Founder of Modern Turkey, but I was blown away by what he accomplished. He was not only able to take back the country after it was sliced up by Great Britain, Greece and France after WWI but he also secularized the country (got rid of the caliphate, changed the language from Arabic to Latin based), promoted the freedom of women and improved education.

The documentary, which you can

, is a must-see IMO. Really a fascinating figure in history and possibly the most impressive in what he was able to accomplish in the context of where he did it.
 
And now it's all getting taken away by the AKP.
Definitely concerning after I looked into it.
Turkey court finds AKP anti-secular

PM and key ruling party members guilty of exploiting religion for political gains.

Last Modified: 24 Oct 2008 17:52 GMT

The court has refused to bar Erdogan

from party activity [ EPA]

Turkey's constitutional court

has ruled that key members of the ruling AK Party, including Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, have been involved in anti-secular activities.

Friday's ruling was related to a case which sought to ban the party on charges it was seeking to throw out the country's secular system, in favour of an Islamist regime.

The judge said the AK Party carried out anti-secular activities and exploited religion for political gains.

However, he found no evidence that the AK Party was trying to incite violence and only fined the party for undermining Turkey's secular principles.

"It needs to be accepted that the party became a focus of anti-secular activities due to its move to change some articles of the Turkish constitution," the court said referring to an AK Party-driven attempt to lift a ban on the wearing of Muslim headscarves at universities.

In a setback to the AK Party, the constitutional court in June overturned an amendment to lift the restriction, saying it violated Turkey's secular constitution.

The court's unexpectedly harsh criticism against Erdogan, who remains Turkey's most popular politician according to recent opinion polls, is likely to renew tensions at a time when it is fighting to limit the impact of a global financial crisis.

The court dismissed in July the prosecutor's case to have the AK Party closed down and to bar Erdogan and other leading members from party activity for five years.

The AK Party has been locked in a battle with Turkey's powerful secularist establishment, including judges and army generals, since it first came to power in 2002.

Secularists say the party is seeking to bring back religion to public life, contrary to the constitution.

The AK Party, which won a sweeping re-election last year, denies it has any Islamist agenda.

Cengiz Aktar, a journalist from the English daily newspaper, the Turkish Daily News based in Istanbul, told Al Jazeera: "It is a very interesting 772 page report, because we see that ten out of eleven judges found that the AKP party, worked against the sacrosanct principle of secularism in this country.

"But they didn't go far enough to close the party down, because they found [the AKP] did not invoke any violence to change the regime.

"They preferred rather to give a penalty to the party ... they will pay back half of their treasury aid, something like $13 million, which is not very harmful to the party.

"But is had reignited the debate on the nature of the regime and the role of the constitutional court," he said.
 
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And now it's all getting taken away by the AKP.
I'm interested to know why you think that. I thought they were a mainstream conservative party and still promoted secularism.
In speech. But, they have a lot of money coming in from fundamentalist, and just recently started a massive wave of censorship of social networking and video sharing websites. Young people seem to be discontent. This all comes from my buddy's Turkish gf. Grain of salt.
 
Turkey's Military Resigns

by Austin Bay

August 2, 2011

In a democracy, when senior military officers can no longer support the policies of the elected civilian government they serve, they are supposed to resign their posts and retire -- not launch a coup.

This is one way to initially frame the complex circumstances surrounding last week's mass resignation by the most senior armed forces commanders in Turkey, the culturally Islamic nation bridging Europe and Asia and possessing NATO's second-largest military establishment.

It is a frame, however, with both encouragingly optimistic and oppressively pessimistic interpretations.

Let's start with the optimism. The Turkish military sees itself as the defender of Turkey's secular democracy. Ironically, in the process of defending democracy, on four occasions since 1960 the Turkish military has toppled an elected government, or threatened the government and precipitated its collapse. Coup leaders claimed they were protecting Turkey's political secularism and thereby ultimately defending democracy from the threat posed by Muslim recidivists and political extremists of the far left and right.

In the historical lens, the military insists it is forwarding the political and social modernization process begun by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the Republic of Turkey. Ataturk was a visionary, a dedicated secularist modernizer who pursued a socially transformational agenda. For example, between 1922 and his death in 1938, he emancipated Turkish women and liberalized and expanded public education.

As a war-winning general, Ataturk used the military as the primary (though not sole) instrument in his modernization process. The army had prestige, organization and educated officers -- all valuable assets in a land devastated by its loss World War I and the subsequent carnage of its victory in the ugly little conflict known as the Greco-Turkish War. When Ataturk died, however, he left Turkey with a democratic structure, not a democracy.

The optimists now argue that the modernization process Ataturk initiated has succeeded. Twenty-first century Turkey now possesses a robust and resilient democracy supported by a free press, eclectic civil society and a middle class interested in expanding economic opportunities. It no longer needs military intervention in domestic politics.

Moreover, the 1980 coup tarnished Turkey's armed forces when it imposed a constitution that circumscribed democratic rights and enshrined military privileges -- a praetorian constitution is a phrase used by its many critics. Protection of democracy decayed to coups by a praetorian guard cadre intent on determining political outcomes. Democratic Turks don't want that.



The pessimists, however, see recidivist Islamists launching a systematic, stealthy coup to end democracy and create a religious tyranny. In the pessimists' interpretation, the late July military resignations signal that current Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his moderate Islamist Justice and Development Party (AKP) have succeeded in sidelining, arresting or retiring military secularists. Once Erdogan and his cronies have removed the military secularists, they will rapidly replace other secular institutions with Islamic organizations and "re-Islamize" Turkey.

Erdogan's opponents argue that the very curious Ergenekon investigation is one of several noxious examples of Erdogan's plan to slowly strangle secular institutions. Erdogan's government alleges Ergenekon is a plot by secularists to destabilize Turkey and set the stage for another military coup. The government has accused hundreds of people of being involved in the murky conspiracy, including senior military officers.

The pessimists say Ergenekon and the so-called Sledgehammer coup conspiracy are poppycock and paranoia that serve Erdogan's dark motives. In pursuing the investigations, they argue that Erdogan has used state powers to intimidate, smear and imprison his secular opponents. His electoral triumph this June, which gave the AKP a large parliamentary majority, have convinced him he cannot be stopped. The mass resignations are all that a weakened general staff can manage -- they no longer have the power to act to stop the Islamist threat Erdogan represents.

Erdogan's harshest critics, however, recognize his commitment to economic development. Arguably, he has tied his own political future to sustaining economic growth. The economic disaster in neighboring Islamic Iran serves as a reminder of the wages of dogma: ossification, corruption, poverty and violent repression.

Economic growth requires adaptation, creativity and agility -- traits the Ataturk-inspired Turkish democracy possesses. Mr. Erdogan, take note.
 
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Erdogan's harshest critics, however, recognize his commitment to economic development. Arguably, he has tied his own political future to sustaining economic growth. The economic disaster in neighboring Islamic Iran serves as a reminder of the wages of dogma: ossification, corruption, poverty and violent repression.

Economic growth requires adaptation, creativity and agility -- traits the Ataturk-inspired Turkish democracy possesses. Mr. Erdogan, take note.
The problem is that while Erdogan unravels Ataturk's secular policies, opponents of these positions don't have much traction because people seem pleased with Ergodan's stewardship of Turkey's incredible economic growth the past several years.As the global financial crisis has shaken many developed countries, Turkey managed to clinch a record-high growth figure. We have become the world's fastest growing economy, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said during a parliamentary group meeting. LINK

 
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I agree 100% with the OP. I visited the Ataturk Museum in Ankara about 5 or 6 years ago and was amazed at his accomplishments. A great man.

(By the way, just to be clear to other posters, the alphabet and written language was changed from Arabic style to a Latin-based alphabet. Apparently some Turkish sounds can't be written well with Arabic characters. :shrug: )

 
Interesting man. I wrote a paper and gave a presentation on him back in college. It was a history class called Modern World Leaders. In a class of about 25-30 people, I was one of the few who didn't choose an American. Got a lot of blank stares. :mellow:

 
When I visited Turkey there were a lot of places dedicated to him. IMO, Turkey (especially Istanbul's Golden Horn) is one of the most under-rated places to visit.

 
The reason he isn't celebrated in the West is because Turkey isn't really considered "West" and therefore doesn't really exist.

 
The reason he isn't celebrated in the West is because Turkey isn't really considered "West" and therefore doesn't really exist.
Correct. You still can't sell brown peoples' history to this country.
Really? What about Gandhi? We certainly celebrate the Mahatma, but we don't have the same regard for Ataturk. Both men are somewhat similar anti-colonial figures, and it could easily be argued that Ataturk accomplished much more. But Ataturk was not a "passive resistance" type, so perhaps that is the reason.
 
Ataturk was visionary, diplomatically adept, handsome, and a natural leader. In every Turkish house, there's a picture of him up somewhere. My Turkish wife has a cardholder that has a picture of him on the front. Sometimes she kisses her fingers and puts her fingers on Ataturks face when we pass his photo. But for Westerners, he comes with some baggage, the most prominent probably was his role in the repatriation of Aremenians, which Armenia calls a genocide (I won't say what my position is on this but just know that Turks see this VERY differently than the majority of the rest of the world). He was reportedly a rampant womanizer and an alcoholic too but that's not a big deal IMO (seek JFK, Yeltsin).

The Armenian diaspora is a very powerful force in the U.S. Raising Ataturk as a model leader might not fly politically. In any case, this is one reason he may not get as much lip service as he probably deserves.

 
I agree 100% with the OP. I visited the Ataturk Museum in Ankara about 5 or 6 years ago and was amazed at his accomplishments. A great man. (By the way, just to be clear to other posters, the alphabet and written language was changed from Arabic style to a Latin-based alphabet. Apparently some Turkish sounds can't be written well with Arabic characters. :shrug: )
Did you see the mausaleum? It is an incredible monument. Unfortunately one of the few things to do in Ankara.
 
The reason he isn't celebrated in the West is because Turkey isn't really considered "West" and therefore doesn't really exist.
Correct. You still can't sell brown peoples' history to this country.
Turks don't consider themselves brown. I think Ataturk had blue eyes.
He was half Albanian and half Macedonian - although that doesn't stop the Turkish birthers from claiming he was actually an evil Jew.
 
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I agree 100% with the OP. I visited the Ataturk Museum in Ankara about 5 or 6 years ago and was amazed at his accomplishments. A great man. (By the way, just to be clear to other posters, the alphabet and written language was changed from Arabic style to a Latin-based alphabet. Apparently some Turkish sounds can't be written well with Arabic characters. :shrug: )
Did you see the mausaleum? It is an incredible monument. Unfortunately one of the few things to do in Ankara.
Yes. I was only in Ankara a few days. I knew someone who was working there. I then visited Istanbul and elsewhere in Turkey. Beautiful country.
 
Mustafa Kemal was also a major Turkish leader at Gallipoli. We only hear about Gallipoli from the ANZAC side, but the Turks suffered just as much as they did in that fiasco.

 
Lots of historic figures don't get mentioned in our history classes. Only so much time.

Even a figure like Saladin who reconquered the Levant after the Crusaders reconquered it after the Arabs conquered it after the Roman Empire collapsed after the Jews conquered it the first time doesn't get a whole lot of play in the west.

 
Mustafa Kemal was also a major Turkish leader at Gallipoli. We only hear about Gallipoli from the ANZAC side, but the Turks suffered just as much as they did in that fiasco.
This is actually a very good point which I had forgotten about. Much of our perceptions of the first half of the 20th century have been shaped by Winston Churchill, who wrote long volumes about the two world wars. For very good reasons, Churchill would not have wished to highlight any Turkish general at Gaillipoli. That whole expedition (the Dardanelles adventure) was his idea. It wasn't his fault that it went wrong, but he was the strategic mastermind.
 
Some great quotes from his as well:- At the battle of Gallipoli

Men, I am not ordering you to attack. I am ordering you to die. In the time that it takes us to die, other forces and commanders can come and take our place.
- In tribute to the soldiers who died at Gallipoli
Heroes who shed their blood and lost their lives! You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours. You, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.
- And the one most apt today
I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men.
 
- And the one most apt today

I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men.
He'd have my vote! :thumbup:
 
Nice call man, yeah I agree.

Sadly his legacy is being slowly torn away by Erdogan and the Islamists.

On the negative side were the genocide and slaughter of Armenians and Greeks.

Truth be told though we probably should have let the Ottomans be.

 
Ataturk was visionary, diplomatically adept, handsome, and a natural leader. In every Turkish house, there's a picture of him up somewhere. My Turkish wife has a cardholder that has a picture of him on the front. Sometimes she kisses her fingers and puts her fingers on Ataturks face when we pass his photo. But for Westerners, he comes with some baggage, the most prominent probably was his role in the repatriation of Aremenians, which Armenia calls a genocide (I won't say what my position is on this but just know that Turks see this VERY differently than the majority of the rest of the world). He was reportedly a rampant womanizer and an alcoholic too but that's not a big deal IMO (seek JFK, Yeltsin).

The Armenian diaspora is a very powerful force in the U.S. Raising Ataturk as a model leader might not fly politically. In any case, this is one reason he may not get as much lip service as he probably deserves.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial

 
 


RIP Turkey, 1921–2017


On Jan. 20, 1921, the Turkish Grand National Assembly passed the Teşkilât-ı Esasîye Kanunu, or the Law on Fundamental Organization. It would be almost three years until Mustafa Kemal — known more commonly as Ataturk, or “Father Turk” — proclaimed the Republic of Turkey, but the legislation was a critical marker of the new order taking shape in Anatolia.

The new country called Turkey, quite unlike the Ottoman Empire, was structured along modern lines. It was to be administered by executive and legislative branches, as well as a Council of Ministers composed of elected representatives of the parliament. What had once been the authority of the sultan, who ruled alone with political and ecclesiastic legitimacy, was placed in the hands of legislators who represented the sovereignty of the people.

More than any other reform, the Law on Fundamental Organization represented a path from dynastic rule to the modern era. And it was this change that was at stake in Turkey’s referendum over the weekend. Much of the attention on Sunday’s vote was focused on the fact that it was a referendum on the power of the Turkish presidency and the polarizing politician who occupies that office, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Yet it was actually much more.

Whether they understood it or not, when Turks voted “Yes”, they were registering their opposition to the Teşkilât-ı Esasîye Kanunu and the version of modernity that Ataturk imagined and represented. Though the opposition is still disputing the final vote tallies, the Turkish public seems to have given Erdogan and the AKP license to reorganize the Turkish state and in the process raze the values on which it was built. Even if they are demoralized in their defeat, Erdogan’s project will arouse significant resistance among the various “No” camps. The predictable result will be the continuation of the purge that has been going on since even before last July’s failed coup including more arrests and the additional delegitimization of Erdogan’s parliamentary opposition. All of this will further destabilize Turkish politics.

Turkey’s Islamists have long venerated the Ottoman period. In doing so, they implicitly expressed thinly veiled contempt for the Turkish Republic. For Necmettin Erbakan, who led the movement from the late 1960s to the emergence of the Justice and Development Party (AKP) in August 2001, the republic represented cultural abnegation and repressive secularism in service of what he believed was Ataturk’s misbegotten ideas that the country could be made Western and the West would accept it. Rather, he saw Turkey’s natural place not at NATO’s headquarters in Brussels but as a leader of the Muslim world, whose partners should be Pakistan, Malaysia, Egypt, Iran, and Indonesia.

When Erbakan’s protégés — among them Erdogan and former President Abdullah Gul — broke with him and created the AKP, they jettisoned the anti-Western rhetoric of the old guard, committed themselves to advancing Turkey’s European Union candidacy, and consciously crafted an image of themselves as the Muslim analogues to Europe’s Christian Democrats. Even so, they retained traditional Islamist ideas about the role of Turkey in the Middle East and the wider Muslim world.

Thinkers within the AKP — notably former Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu — harbored reservations about the compatibility of Western political and social institutions with their predominantly Muslim society. But the AKP leadership never acted upon this idea, choosing instead to undermine aspects of Ataturk’s legacy within the framework of the republic. That is no longer the case.

The AKP and supporters of the “yes” vote argue that the criticism of the constitutional amendments was unfair. They point out that the changes do not undermine a popularly elected parliament and president as well as an independent (at least formally) judiciary. This is all true, but it is also an exceedingly narrow description of the political system that Erdogan envisions. Rather, the powers that would be afforded to the executive presidency are vast, including the ability to appoint judges without input from parliament, issue decrees with the force of law, and dissolve parliament. The president would also have the sole prerogative over all senior appointments in the bureaucracy and exercise exclusive control of the armed forces. The amendments obviate the need for the post of prime minister, which would be abolished. The Grand National Assembly does retain some oversight and legislative powers, but if the president and the majority are from the same political party, the power of the presidency will be unconstrained. With massive imbalances and virtually no checks on the head of state, who will now also be the head of government, the constitutional amendments render the Law on Fundamental Organization and all subsequent efforts to emulate the organizational principles of a modern state moot. It turns out that Erdogan, who would wield power not vested in Turkish leaders since the sultans, is actually a neo-Ottoman.

Erdogan’s ambition helped propel Turkey to this point. But unlike the caricature of a man who seeks power for the sake of power, the Turkish leader actually has a vision for the transformation of Turkey in which the country is more prosperous, more powerful, and more Muslim, meaning conservative and religious values would shape the behavior and expectations of Turks as they make their way in life. The problem is that Erdogan is convinced that he is the only one with the political skills, moral suasion, and stature to carry it out. Consequently, he needs to command the state and the political arena in ways that Turkish presidents, who are supposed to be above the fray and by tradition are expected to carry out their limited but important powers in statesmanlike fashion, never have.

For all of Erdogan’s political successes, forging the “executive presidency” that he seeks has been an exercise in frustration until now. In October 2011, he announced that Turkey would have a new constitution within a year. By 2013, the interparty parliamentary committee charged with writing the new document was deadlocked, so Erdogan set his sights on a constitution written by the AKP. In order to get it passed, however, he needed to reinforce his parliamentary majority. When, in two general elections in 2015, he did not get the 367 seats (out of 550) needed to write and ratify a constitution without the public’s input, the Turkish president was forced to settle for constitutional amendments and Sunday’s referendum.

In order to bolster support for the executive presidency, Erdogan has raised the specter of the political and economic instability of the 1990s and early 2000s, when a series of coalition governments proved too incompetent and corrupt to manage Turkey’s challenges. Many Turks quite rightly regard that era as one of lost opportunities and would prefer not to repeat it. The wave of terror attacks by Kurdish insurgents that killed scores between the summer of 2015 and late 2016 added urgency to Erdogan’s message about the wisdom of a purely presidential system.

Turkey’s domineering president has also sought to clear the field of real and perceived opponents, driving and deepening Turkey’s authoritarianism. The bureaucracy has been purged, a process that began even before last July’s failed coup; the Gulen movement has been dismantled; journalists have been silenced through jail time and other threats to their livelihood; and campaigners for a “no” vote hounded. To build support for a “yes” vote, Erdogan played on nationalist sentiment and manufactured crises with the Dutch and German governments over pro-AKP rallies planned in their countries.

It should come as no surprise that Erdogan pulled out all the stops in pursuit of the constitutional amendments. After all, they alter the organization of the Turkish state in fundamental ways and in the process do away with the checks and balances in the system. Those constraints on executive power were never strong to begin with, and Erdogan has already upended them in practice. Now, he seeks to legitimize this change in constitutional principles. Why?

Besides the fact that authoritarians like to situate their nondemocratic practices in legal systems so they can claim “rule of law,” Erdogan needs the legal cover to pursue his broader transformative agenda. And the only way it seems that he can accomplish that is by making himself something akin to a sultan.

Erdogan is an authoritarian, like those found throughout the world. But he is also inspired by Ottoman history, and there are aspects of his rule that echo that era. As the Turkish president has come to rely on a smaller and smaller group of advisors, including members of his family, his “White Palace” — the presidential palace in Ankara he built on land once owned by Ataturk — has come to resemble, not merely in grandeur, the palaces of the Ottoman sultans. Yet his effort to secure the executive presidency goes much deeper than that. Erdogan wants to tear down the republic because both he and the people he represents have suffered at the hands of those who have led and defended it. It would be impractical and impossible to re-create the governing structures of the Ottoman state, but in the Turkish-Islamist imagination, the age of the Ottomans was not only the apotheosis of Turkish culture and power, but a tolerant and progressive era. For Erdogan’s core constituency, in particular, the AKP era has been a golden era, a modern day analogue to this manufactured past. These predominantly pious and middle class Turks enjoy personal and political freedoms that they were once denied. They have also enjoyed upward economic and social mobility. By granting Erdogan the executive presidency he has so coveted, they are looking forward to even greater achievements. Of course, there are the millions of Turks who voted No and fear the consolidation of authoritarianism and who regard the state and the Kemalist ideas it represents as sacrosanct.

The Turkish Republic has an undeniably complicated history. It is an enormous achievement. In the space of almost a century, a largely agrarian society that had been devastated by war was transformed into a prosperous power that wielded influence in its own region and well beyond. At the same time, modern Turkey’s history has also been nondemocratic, repressive, and sometimes violent. It thus makes perfect political sense for Erdogan to seek the transformation of Turkey by empowering the presidency and thereby closing off the possibility once and for all that people like him will be victims of the republic.

At the end of the day, Erdogan is simply replacing one form of authoritarianism with another. The Law on Fundamental Organization and the republic that followed were expressions of modernity. The Turkish Republic has always been flawed, but it always contained the aspiration that — against the backdrop of the principles to which successive constitutions claimed fidelity — it could become a democracy. Erdogan’s new Turkey closes off that prospect.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/16/rip-turkey-1921-2017/

- I'm seriously concerned for the modern world and all the blood and toil and treasure expended in WW1, WW2, Cold War and elsewhere.

 

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