radiohead417
Footballguy
If Belichick hadn't won Super Bowls, he wouldn't have a job.
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"Belichick has track record of classlessness" (1 Viewer)
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The Jerk
Footballguy
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Guess you didn't read the bolded part of the article. The Patriots were given a free-pass last year after they got caught. And ALL the teams were warned not to steal signal in this fashion again. The Patriots didn't listen. Stop being such aBreaking the rules: NFL
Information, paranoia rule thoughts of many in NFL
Posted: Wednesday July 25, 2007 12:07PM; Updated: Wednesday July 25, 2007 2:03PM
Cheating in the NFL isn't what it once was. The league's institution of the K-ball program in recent years addressed the doctoring of footballs that was a routine practice of kickers and punters everywhere. And the pregame pat-down the officiating crew now gives offensive and defensive linemen eliminated the ability to grease up one's jersey in order to become too slick to contain.
But there are still some more subtle examples of surreptitious behavior going on in Roger Goodell's kingdom, if you know where to look. In talking with league sources, here are several areas where teams tend to go just over the line that separates strategy from subterfuge in seeking a competitive advantage:
1. Pictures are worth a thousand words: The "stealing'' of signs -- both on offense and defense -- is the area that's most often cited as fertile ground for cheating. The most common practice is for a team to videotape an opponent's signal-givers on the sideline, and later marry up those indications to the game tape in order to identify tendencies or patterns.
Though no disciplinary action by the league ever resulted, the Patriots last year were reportedly the impetus of a sternly written letter from the league office to all teams, reminding them that it was illegal for an advance scout or personnel official to bring a video recording device of any kind into the press box for the purposes of taping a potential opponent's signals or play-calling gestures from the sideline.
Teams have also been chastised for having a second camera in the press box-area video box, with one camera shooting the game action and the other one being trained on the opposing team's signal-givers. On offense, that's why coaches have taken to holding their play-calling charts in front of their mouths when they're sending in the play to the quarterback via the radio headset system.
On defense, teams have gone to having two different signal callers, with one being a dummy signaler and other being responsible for the "hot,'' or real, call. Other teams use different color wrist bands during a game, with the defensive captain switching to a different color before each series, and the defensive signal-caller calling formations and blitzes from a list that corresponds with that color.
"That type of sign-stealing goes on a ton in the league,'' said one NFL source who was both a former coach and player in the league. "From a coaching standpoint, you know who's signaling in the personnel on the opposing sideline, and then there's another guy making the play calls on the headset. Defenses used to watch the play-caller, and if a guy spoke for a real long time, that was usually a pass, because the calls take longer. A run is always a shorter call. So coaches shield their mouths when they're calling plays now. If you make your calls out in the open, the other team will steal your signals and your tendencies.''
2. De-briefing the former enemy: With the advent of free agency and coaching tenures getting shorter all the time, the movement of players and coaches from team to team is more prevalent than ever. And that means more information about an opponent's tendencies and play-calling is readily available and waiting to be mined.
One way that insight can be helpful is in the identifying of an opponent's calls at the line of scrimmage, from a first-hand source who played or coached for that team in the recent past.
"You try to get those false calls that teams like to use at the line,'' said one former player. "Player X or coach X who has been with that team might stop by the offensive or defensive meetings and say, 'Look for this if they say that. Or when the quarterback does this, look for that.' It can be very useful in some cases.''
3. One man's trash is another man's treasure: Head coaches in the NFL are by nature paranoid beings. And they're often control freaks to boot. And when it comes to the potential of giving away a competitive edge of any sort, they're absolutely maniacal about keeping things in house.
One former coach and player told me that many coaches now have their trash segregated and shredded independent of everyone else's at the team complex. Everything that can be controlled, is controlled, from who gets to watch practice to who's cleaning the team's building at night.
"The more money that's at stake, the more it's like spy versus spy,'' a league source said. "Coaches are always looking out for moles. They want to know who's in the building at night, who can see the depth chart on the greaseboard and who's emptying the trash? And you can't just be a mid-level paper-pusher in an organization and expect to come out and watch practice. That guy might have grown up in D.C. and is a lifelong Redskins fan.''
It's not just in their home environments that coaches seek to control the flow of information.
"On road trips, let's say you're going to the west coast and have a walk-through practice at the stadium on Saturday afternoon,'' the source said. "You're told not to leave anything behind. From cheat sheets for the players, to the tests we give players about the game plan on the flight out, to anything that might be of use to the opponent. Because if anything gets dropped, you can expect it will eventually find its way to the other team.
"Coaches don't trust people at the hotel on the road, or the people who pick you up on the bus and take you to the hotel or the stadium. Everything is scrutinized. To some coaches, every little detail matters.''
The bent toward intrigue can be so prevalent at times teams will go to the lengths of leaving a fake game plan or play-calling script behind at times, in order to throw an opponent off the trail and cost it needless time trying to decode a useless document. Teams have been known to run as many meaningless blitzes as possible when they play Tampa Bay in the preseason, because they know ever-thorough Bucs head coach Jon Gruden will feel the need to catalog and prepare for the possibility of seeing every one of them in the future.
4. The playbook's the thing: Since the dawn of time, coaches have been reminding players to keep an eye on their playbooks at all times. But they still occasionally fall into enemy hands, and can sometimes yield a treasure trove of material used for nefarious purposes, at least competitively speaking.
I was told of one recent visiting NFL player who was downstairs at his team's hotel the night before a game in St. Louis, and put his playbook down for a moment to sign an autograph for a kid. He forgot to pick it back up, and it somehow found its way to the Rams before game time.
"The playbook is a big one,'' said one former NFL player. "We were told to not even leave them out in the open in the locker room during the week. You'd get fined big time over a lost playbook. You don't get a mulligan on that one. Coaches harp on that all the time.''
Other league sources I talked to were more dubious about the real value of a playbook should it find its way into an opponent's hands.
"Most good teams don't give out everything in their playbook at the same time, at least not to every player,'' a source said. "I'll bet you the Patriots don't. They give you just what you have to have. And even if you get the playbook, you've got to know the calls. You've got to know what's hot in any particular route. It doesn't really matter if you know the plays. You've got to know the calls. You can hear Peyton Manning's signals at the line, but he changes what they mean all the time.''
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Sooo.. everyone does it.... some teams even steal playbooks... the debreifing of former players is also viewed as "cheating" and is also commonplace.... yet we're going to crucify the Pats over this?
You guys need more hobbies.
.I'm pretty sure that he also doesn't like puppies, old people or young children either. I mean, he is an ogre. Some chide hiim for leaving the Jets, and others for him being irked at Mangini for leaving. He left the Jets, because he got total control in NE. The once in a lifetime job, after 20+ years as Parcells assistant. His irritation w/ Mangini likely came because before promoting Eric, he got a commitment that it wasn't a 1 year deal, after replacing both coordinators the prior year. If your wife is banging another man, your marriage is the problem, not the guy she's banging. Would I do it? Probably not, but to make out like he's a home wrecker is ridiculous. Happily married people don't have affairs. I love the bowling over of the cameraman. First, he wouldn't shake a hand, then he's a jerk for puching a cameraman out of the way to do so. Is that a double standard. Don't forget, he also wasn't friendly enough to Peyton Manning after last years AFC Championship. The arguments put forward are hilarious, sixth grade chick fodder.
High school coaches change their signals all the time. People are trying to steal your signals, no matter the sport.The Jerk said:
My understanding is that the camera was in plain view.
What I find to be so ironis is after Miami admitted to such a tape as this last year, complete w/ audio of Brady, it was no big deal to the league, or anybody. This will die down as well. And, maybe we'll get the whole story. I frankly think it's hilarious that people are appalled at this. They're the team to beat. Live with it.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
So it's ok for BB to leave the Jets to take a once in a lifetime job, but it's not ok for Mangini?
NO, I'm saying both sides have reasons to be irked, and both coaches had reason to take the opportunity. There is no right or wrong in either.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
First, the Colts are still the team to beat, and second, it's probably more appropriate to say, "NE fans, deal with your team's punishment".
If an when the punishment comes, we will. It's akin to any other penalty. It's not going to cripple the team. But, do notice that the same guy who frst reported the big punishment is MOrt, who also claimed Vick would face no charges? Maybe wait for the other side of the story?
corpcow
Footballguy
No, that's not a double standard by any stretch of the imagination. We are asking him to be professional and civilized, and civilized people don't push people out of the way to shake hands.
scoobygang
Footballguy
The only reason why I think some people are locking on this story is because Belichick has allowed other media members to construct their own ridiculous narrative of him. He's hardly unique in that respect. We imbue successful coaches with moral invented moral qualities all the time. It's a ridiculous form of hagiography.
In the Halberstram book, Belichick was cast as the white knight who set out on a Quixotic quest and save football from the "me-first" athlete and somehow suceeded. The Patriots were the triumph of team over ego. What was annoying about the book is that it failed to realize that Belichick's philospophy, in it's own way, is a product of its own ego. The team concept implicitly credits the team's architect. So the perpetuation of the idea that the Patriots were about finding guys who could fit Belichick's "system" simply served to fetishize that system.
So I think its important to understand these things about Belichick. Particularly when, as other posters have noted, we demonize guys like Keyshawn Johnson or T.O. or whatever "me-first" athlete of the moment. We label those guys cancers (despite the fact that both have contributed to a lot of winning teams) because they have egos.
In the Halberstram book, Belichick was cast as the white knight who set out on a Quixotic quest and save football from the "me-first" athlete and somehow suceeded. The Patriots were the triumph of team over ego. What was annoying about the book is that it failed to realize that Belichick's philospophy, in it's own way, is a product of its own ego. The team concept implicitly credits the team's architect. So the perpetuation of the idea that the Patriots were about finding guys who could fit Belichick's "system" simply served to fetishize that system.
So I think its important to understand these things about Belichick. Particularly when, as other posters have noted, we demonize guys like Keyshawn Johnson or T.O. or whatever "me-first" athlete of the moment. We label those guys cancers (despite the fact that both have contributed to a lot of winning teams) because they have egos.
Brides Maids
Footballguy
I can't see the issue here, who cares if he's liked by the other coaches ?? His owner/owners probably don't.As long as he continues to get the job done no one should care.gump said:
This isn't an election or a beauty pageant, its a job and as long as his boss is happy that's all he needs to concern himself with!!!
corpcow
Footballguy
No, if I recall Miami listened to the television broadcast. They may or may not be "the team to beat", and that has absolutely NO bearing on whether or not they did anything wrong here. Being talented and having a good team doesn't justify illegal behavior. The rules are fair! The regulations are fair! The competitive balance WAS fair - and that's what they've upset.
corpcow
Footballguy
No one here said Bill wasn't a good coach. The criticism has been that he's a jerk, and this is simply evidence of that. You guys need to get your arguments straight...
corpcow
Footballguy
Best post in the thread. Dead on.
Yep, no need to push your way though the media throng on the field after a playoff game. When in a crowd, and working your way through, you must push. Maybe you can just meditate a path through, but others will push people to get through.
Kit Fisto
Footballguy
Let me clear up the Belichick/Mangini hate-fest:
It started not because Mangini left New England, but because Mangini broke the Parcells Family Tree rule... don't tamper with your former teams players when you leave that organization. That set Belichick off, and it has become a childish pissing match ever since.
Seriously, I suspect the Pats will get fined some cash and lose a mid-level draft pick. They are certainly liable for their actions, and no Patriot fan is denying that. They got caught, they will be made examples of, they will pay their penalty and we'll all move on.
I would also suspect that Goodell is gonna call Mangini AND Belichick to NYC to have a sit-down, and say "Children, knock it off!"
It started not because Mangini left New England, but because Mangini broke the Parcells Family Tree rule... don't tamper with your former teams players when you leave that organization. That set Belichick off, and it has become a childish pissing match ever since.
Seriously, I suspect the Pats will get fined some cash and lose a mid-level draft pick. They are certainly liable for their actions, and no Patriot fan is denying that. They got caught, they will be made examples of, they will pay their penalty and we'll all move on.
I would also suspect that Goodell is gonna call Mangini AND Belichick to NYC to have a sit-down, and say "Children, knock it off!"
The Jerk
Footballguy
This thread is about the stream of behaviors and actions that have been emanating out of New England now for the past 10 months or so. The camera/spying incident is only one element. I am willing to wait and see what more comes out on this story, but I don't need to wait in order to form an opinion on the other behaviors listed in the original post.Posters like me aren't making this stuff up. It's not just the article from the original post, either. Look what Jim Donaldson of the Providence Journal wrote:
Videotape allegations put Pats deeper into wayward path
There is no rush to judgment on the issue of Belichick and his lack of class, sportsmanship and professionalism. Patriots fans in this forum have reveled in it in the past, when most of the talk focused on his terse press conferences and his sense of "fashion". However, the episodes with Mangini, the photographer, his sore loser display after becoming the coach who lost the largest lead in a championship game, and now multiple instances of sign-stealing over at least two seasons make it clear there is another side to the "genius". If it makes you feel better, go ahead and pass it off as the jealousy of other fans, but explain to me how it works that Patriots fans can be objective on these matters while fans of all the other teams are biased and partisan. Maybe it's just me, but that sure seems like a double standard.
corpcow
Footballguy
Again with the blind defense of him. There's a difference between "pushing through a crowd" and what he did.Watch it again. It was an ####### move and completely unnecessary.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GwDJ_7L8zi0
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Kiddnets
Footballguy
Karma is a b%$^% - hope he finally pays the piper for the crap he has pulled!
blue&silver
Footballguy
We'll take him in Detroit if no one wants him. I don't care how classless this guy MAY be, in the NFL you are paid to do one thing: WIN and he does it year after year. And you can't tell me that every team doesn't have someone sitting somewhere in the stadium trying to pick up the plays. Hell, the coordinators hide their mouths when they're calling the plays because they know teams have employed people to read lips. Screwing with other teams is part of the Belichick aura. Please explain to me why every team tries to sign the Belichick disciples, like they did with the Bill Walsh disciples. One reason; WINNING.
Plus, he's much better than our D-line coach Joe Cullen who got pi$$ed up and drove around naked.
Plus, he's much better than our D-line coach Joe Cullen who got pi$$ed up and drove around naked.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
BB took $1M and had a iron clad contract with a dying Leon Hess that he would be the "HC of the NYJ" - he humiliated the franchise and fu%$#% over Hess in the process Mangini had no such contract and had every right to accept the promotion! BB is finally getting his and payback is a b%$!
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Taking $1M and breaking a contract with a dying man who had faith in you; treating your protege as if he was Benedict Arnold for accepting a legit position; participating in infidelity; physically pushing people; and cheating at his job are not six grade chick fodder in my book.Maybe intimidating Brad Childress (who couldn't do that!) was chick fodder but the rest is clear - BB is a scumbag!
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
phthalatemagic said:
Kiddnets
Footballguy
LOL at "secret consultation" - it was in the papers! 100% legit vs outright cheating!phthalatemagic said:
No team has done a better job of finding good to great players in mid to late rounds the last few seasons. The Pats have made a habit of mining gold in the mid to late rounds of their drafts. They find playable players. I cannot say the same for my Lions or many other teams in the NFL. If there is any truth to the story that the Pats could lose draft picks, then, yes, it will cripple the team. Not this season but it will catch up to them at some point in 2008 and hit home in 2009.Draft picks are like gold in the NFL especially anything on Day One. I don't care who the GM, Director of Player Personnel or the coach of a team is. That team and or brain trust will temporarily be hampered by not having draft picks and that includes the New England Patriots.
I remain unphased by the moving of a photographer who is in Manginis face. Can you hear if BB is saying anything, like telling the jackass to let him shake hands? No, you can't, nor can I. Tell me, what is the proper way to get through there, after you've just walked through a mob to get to that point? He has to move one of the guys. Or, is he supposed to wait another 10 minutes for the photogs to finish? I don't say I'm being objective. I just think you people are taking a bunch of non-issues and pretending their issues.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
As I understand things, Goodell told everybody not to do this anymore, and BB is not a good person. Oh yeah, and he pushed a photographer.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Sorry but your wrong - BB had an iron clad clause in his contract and was paid $1M for it - he was the HC of the NYJ and he quit/broke his contract to go to the Pats. Mangini received a legit job offer and took it within the full rules of the game. BTW - before anyone calls me a hypocrite - Parcells is a slimeball too for doing the same thing to the Pats!
redman
Footballguy
Is any team any less "hard-nosed, take no prisoners" if they opt not to break the rules and blatantly violate restrictions handed down by the commissioner?
thehornet
Footballguy
sorry, you misunderstood. I am not trying to point out the Pats are tougher than others. Just the NFL in general. There is a history of this stuff happening in the nfl and the pats got caught. I am not saying they shouldnt be punished, but lets cut the crap with "classy coach" thing. Nobody said (or cares) if BB is a freaking alter boy. I know I sure dont care.
corpcow
Footballguy
You're ridiculous. In his face? The guy is a good 5-6 feet away from him. No, you're not being objective. Far from it. We're saying he's an #######, and here are a series of events where he's behaved like an #######. Nothing less, nothing more. No one is questioning his coaching ability, only his ability to act like a civilized human being.Where there's smoke there's fire... but clearly rational discourse is not going to be effective with you.
corpcow
Footballguy
Yes, it's much different. The Dolphins watched TV broadcast to the world, the Pats illegally videotaped on the sidelines.http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patr...en_intercepted/
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