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Boeing 737 MAX (1 Viewer)

Terminalxylem

Terminalxylem

Footballguy
Just watched a brief documentary on the Smithsonian channel. Pretty horrific all the mistakes/intentional oversights made by Boeing.  Though an argument can be made they're the most safe aircraft after all the scrutiny, I'm still not interested in putting money in Boeing's pocket after what they've done.

While I realize this crusade may be futile, any other FBGs avoiding the MAX? How?

 
Terminalxylem said:
Just watched a brief documentary on the Smithsonian channel. Pretty horrific all the mistakes/intentional oversights made by Boeing.  Though an argument can be made they're the most safe aircraft after all the scrutiny, I'm still not interested in putting money in Boeing's pocket after what they've done.

While I realize this crusade may be futile, any other FBGs avoiding the MAX? How?
Click to expand...


The central issues with these planes is still not exactly solved. The weight imbalance can give you a stall while climbing.  To need to defeat this with electronics is concerning.  It seems overall how it was managed is reasonably ok, just not implemented well.

Most US carriers bought the option with 2 forward air speed sensors for redundancy.  You can fact check that on a carrier by carrier basis to get confidence you won't pancake if a Mylar balloon hangs on one or a canada goose impales itself.  Both of the crashes as far as have been noted were directly or indirectly due to a single air speed sensor getting clogged or simply failing.  

 
Terminalxylem said:
Just watched a brief documentary on the Smithsonian channel. Pretty horrific all the mistakes/intentional oversights made by Boeing.  Though an argument can be made they're the most safe aircraft after all the scrutiny, I'm still not interested in putting money in Boeing's pocket after what they've done.

While I realize this crusade may be futile, any other FBGs avoiding the MAX? How?
Click to expand...


Free flights and I would roll the dice.

 
culdeus said:
The central issues with these planes is still not exactly solved. The weight imbalance can give you a stall while climbing.  To need to defeat this with electronics is concerning.  It seems overall how it was managed is reasonably ok, just not implemented well.

Most US carriers bought the option with 2 forward air speed sensors for redundancy.  You can fact check that on a carrier by carrier basis to get confidence you won't pancake if a Mylar balloon hangs on one or a canada goose impales itself.  Both of the crashes as far as have been noted were directly or indirectly due to a single air speed sensor getting clogged or simply failing.  
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Yeah, they mentioned the non-redundant sensor in the doc. But there were many other factors, among which was not alerting pilots of the  faulty system, and how to correct it. Just a bunch of shady moves by Boeing.

 
I watched the same doc. I think. Not a good look for Boeing at all. My dad has always asked me what model plane I was flying on. Way before the max was around.  Always thought it was odd. Now I look. So far, I haven’t been on one.  Not sure what I’ll do, if/when it comes up. 

 
Terminalxylem said:
Yeah, they mentioned the non-redundant sensor in the doc. But there were many other factors, among which was not alerting pilots of the  faulty system, and how to correct it. Just a bunch of shady moves by Boeing.
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The Lion crash was worse, basically the system pushed the plane down harder than the pilots could physically respond to.   A lot of those situations are fixed, but it's still not the ideal situation to fly in a plane that can stall in a normal climb out.  Having dual sensors and limits on the MCAS seems fine.

 
culdeus said:
Having dual sensors and limits on the MCAS seems fine.
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The single sensor is such an amazing mistake.  That should never, ever happen in a man rated system.  On commercial systems like that every critical system should have a backup.  On the Shuttle every system had two backups.

I still shake my head over that.

 
DA RAIDERS said:
I watched the same doc. I think. Not a good look for Boeing at all. My dad has always asked me what model plane I was flying on. Way before the max was around.  Always thought it was odd. Now I look. So far, I haven’t been on one.  Not sure what I’ll do, if/when it comes up. 
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It sounds like most airlines have purchased their planes, though some don’t include the 737 MAX in their fleet atm.  Delta is one of the good guys, iirc.

I’m definitely never flying Lion, who allowed the plane which ultimately crashed almost immediately back in the air after it malfunctioned, without telling the pilots how the prior team prevented an accident.

 
Saw a 20/20 on this a couple months back. It was crazy to hear how Boeing got off with very little penalty in many people’s eyes.

 
Terminalxylem said:
It sounds like most airlines have purchased their planes, though some don’t include the 737 MAX in their fleet atm.  Delta is one of the good guys, iirc.

I’m definitely never flying Lion, who allowed the plane which ultimately crashed almost immediately back in the air after it malfunctioned, without telling the pilots how the prior team prevented an accident.
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Yes, the trim was basically running away and the procedures in place at the time were impossible to deal with in the timeframe alotted, because the trim was going to get to the runaway point prior to the checklist hitting the trim pull back. 

I think they were toast with or without the knowledge that it was funky, unless they I suppose declined boarding.

That Lion crash is much more serious as it really highlighted a complete safety breakdown in multiple elements, not just software.  Boeing really got away with one there.

 
eoMMan said:
Saw a 20/20 on this a couple months back. It was crazy to hear how Boeing got off with very little penalty in many people’s eyes.
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culdeus said:
Yes, the trim was basically running away and the procedures in place at the time were impossible to deal with in the timeframe alotted, because the trim was going to get to the runaway point prior to the checklist hitting the trim pull back. 

I think they were toast with or without the knowledge that it was funky, unless they I suppose declined boarding.

That Lion crash is much more serious as it really highlighted a complete safety breakdown in multiple elements, not just software.  Boeing really got away with one there.
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At the risk of being melodramatic, people at Boeing involved with these decisions aren’t far removed from murderers in my eyes. Although it’s arguably silly (and nearly impossible) at this point, I wish consumers could take a stand against airlines using their planes, especially the 737 MAX.

 
I flew on one with SWA before the crashes. Loved it. Smooth,roomy, quiet, and very comfortable. But not sure I'd get on one today.

 
Terminalxylem said:
It sounds like most airlines have purchased their planes, though some don’t include the 737 MAX in their fleet atm.  Delta is one of the good guys, iirc.

I’m definitely never flying Lion, who allowed the plane which ultimately crashed almost immediately back in the air after it malfunctioned, without telling the pilots how the prior team prevented an accident.
Click to expand...
I was going to mention Delta being Max-free. 

 
Ron Swanson said:
I flew on one with SWA before the crashes. Loved it. Smooth,roomy, quiet, and very comfortable. But not sure I'd get on one today.
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The FAA put Boeing through the ringer on this.  I'll bet the new software implemented is way, way more sophisticated in how it handles events.  I'd feel comfortable flying on one now ; kinda like the day that airports opened after 9/11 was likely the safest day to fly, ever.

 
Sand said:
The FAA put Boeing through the ringer on this.  I'll bet the new software implemented is way, way more sophisticated in how it handles events.  I'd feel comfortable flying on one now ; kinda like the day that airports opened after 9/11 was likely the safest day to fly, ever.
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I agree with this. The pilots are now trained to recognize when the system kicks in.  To me, that was the most appalling part of the story. 

 
Sand said:
The FAA put Boeing through the ringer on this.  I'll bet the new software implemented is way, way more sophisticated in how it handles events.  I'd feel comfortable flying on one now ; kinda like the day that airports opened after 9/11 was likely the safest day to fly, ever.
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As I said, I suspect the planes will be safe, probably safer than many others following this scrutiny. I'm more interested in not supporting Boeing, as they got off far too easy for intentional wrongdoing that ended up killing people.

9/11 is still a great day to fly.

 
E Street Brat said:
I agree with this. The pilots are now trained to recognize when the system kicks in.  To me, that was the most appalling part of the story. 
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That's not completely true, and was pushed by Boeing into the media.  The Egypt Air pilots followed the procedures as laid out by Boeing to which they were trained to do, and it was not enough.  As far as I know Boeing does not dispute the Egypt air crew failed to follow any outlined procedure, and the procedure they were trained to and used was overhauled.

Lion was a little more complex and had the extra element of the faulty AoA confusing the crew, and the maintenance items leading to the AoA.  That one was more a sequence of event type situation, that led to inaction on Boeing's part.  I am not confident the crew had a way out there, but I wouldn't let Lion completely off the hook for the sensor not being managed correctly.  They had less than a minute to figure out the AoA was bad, that the AoA was feeding #### data to MCAS was recognized too late stage.  That the whole thing was brushed off on the sensor here is where it gets criminal in my mind.  

You still have an airframe that can stall in a climb that the FAA was completely ok with pilots not training to understand how that can happen and will be managed.  

 
Jobber said:
I was going to mention Delta being Max-free. 
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As I was reading this thread I wondered the same thing.   Pretty pure Delta doesn't have any.  And with being in Detroit and Delta being primary, that's cool

Outside of that I wouldn't make any special effort to avoid one.

 
Just watched it last night. Brutal.

At some point someone at a corporation needs to go to jail instead of paying fines for death tolls due to negligence. Whether it's this case or Purdue Pharma or whatever. Ridiculous. 

 
Terminalxylem said:
As I said, I suspect the planes will be safe, probably safer than many others following this scrutiny. I'm more interested in not supporting Boeing, as they got off far too easy for intentional wrongdoing that ended up killing people.
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Over the long term the balance is probably positive for lives saved with safe air travel than if Boeing didn't exist.  They do deserve all the drubbings they deserve for this debacle, though.  Huge unforced error.

 
Sand said:
Over the long term the balance is probably positive for lives saved with safe air travel than if Boeing didn't exist.  They do deserve all the drubbings they deserve for this debacle, though.  Huge unforced error.
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I guess one can look at it that way, or compare them to other airlines - don’t know where they rank in the all-time sh!tty business standings. In my eyes, it’s one of the more egregious modern corporate scandals, worse than Volkswagen but probably better than some of the Big Pharma and tobacco stuff.

 
Terminalxylem said:
I guess one can look at it that way, or compare them to other airlines - don’t know where they rank in the all-time sh!tty business standings. In my eyes, it’s one of the more egregious modern corporate scandals, worse than Volkswagen but probably better than some of the Big Pharma and tobacco stuff.
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I'd put Purdue Pharma as the worst of the worst, but this is pretty bad, no doubt.

 
Terminalxylem said:
I don’t know all the specifics of that case, but on the surface seems a little more indirect way to kill a lot of people.
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Purdue killed way, way more people.  They have a large slice of blame for the opioid issues we have now.  Boeing was amoral and greedy.  Purdue was evil.

 
Sand said:
Purdue killed way, way more people.  They have a large slice of blame for the opioid issues we have now.  Boeing was amoral and greedy.  Purdue was evil.
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Like I said, don’t know the details in the Purdue case. From what I know, it doesn’t seem as easy to pin the blame on a few people, and there are several steps between promoting addiction and death. 
 

I think both are terrible though.

 
Sand said:
Purdue killed way, way more people.  They have a large slice of blame for the opioid issues we have now.  Boeing was amoral and greedy.  Purdue was evil.
Click to expand...


  At the root of this they really wanted to squeeze new engines on an old airframes and use software to tie it together.  I've seen this type of thing a lot, the people that run the hardware department don't talk to the software department and so on.  The hardware team is able to de-risk the software which has no qualms about killing you and everyone on the plane, but I'm confident they weren't fully brought in.  Whether they were amoral is sort of who knew what and when.  

Purdue for sure knew they were selling straight dope.  There's some giant thread on that subject here though somewhere.  

 
Terminalxylem said:
Like I said, don’t know the details in the Purdue case. From what I know, it doesn’t seem as easy to pin the blame on a few people, and there are several steps between promoting addiction and death. 
 

I think both are terrible though.
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Nm. After reading more, Sackler definitely is evil, and clearly responsible for a bunch of nefarious marketing of OxyContin.

 
The MAX is a nice ride, and probably the most scrutinized airplane flying now.  I feel totally comfortable getting on one, and in fact, am happy when I get on one because it tends to have nicer amenities (bigger bins, quieter, LED-based lighting).  

As older airplanes get retired, and MAXes get delivered, it will be harder and harder to avoid them.  

 
Another 737 has crashed, I really think they need to scrap this plane and stick with the older models that are much more reliable.  

 
And I think a German pilot a few years back committed suicide by locking the copilot out of the cockpit and flying the plane into a mountain. 

 
Sand said:
I'd put Purdue Pharma as the worst of the worst, but this is pretty bad, no doubt.
Click to expand...


Oh it's Purdue, for sure.  They have gone to the line 55 times more than their opponents, in only their first two games.  Just check out what they've done to the people of Texas!

 
1 Purdue +34 vs. Texas 
2 Purdue +21 vs. Yale 
3 Michigan +15 vs. CSU 
3 Arkansas +15 vs. NMSU 
5 Kentucky +14 vs. St. Pete’s 
6 LSU +13 vs. Iowa State 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Harry Frogfish said:
Oh it's Purdue, for sure.  They have gone to the line 55 times MORE than their opponents in just their first two games.  Check out the biggest discrepancies thus far:

 
1 Purdue +34 vs. Texas 
2 Purdue +21 vs. Yale 
3 Michigan +15 vs. CSU 
3 Arkansas +15 vs. NMSU 
5 Kentucky +14 vs. St. Pete’s 
6 LSU +13 vs. Iowa State 
Click to expand...


lols

 
Harry Frogfish said:
Oh it's Purdue, for sure.  They have gone to the line 55 times more than their opponents, in only their first two games.  Just check out what they've done to the people of Texas!

 
1 Purdue +34 vs. Texas 
2 Purdue +21 vs. Yale 
3 Michigan +15 vs. CSU 
3 Arkansas +15 vs. NMSU 
5 Kentucky +14 vs. St. Pete’s 
6 LSU +13 vs. Iowa State 
Click to expand...
Definitely the worst. My family always chooses Tyson. 

 
I just flew one back from Colombia.  I noticed because they changed the flight TO the 737 MAX and I thought to myself "is that that plane...?" and then forgot about it until I saw the crash today and this thread.

 
Dez89 said:
I just flew one back from Colombia.  I noticed because they changed the flight TO the 737 MAX and I thought to myself "is that that plane...?" and then forgot about it until I saw the crash today and this thread.
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The China crash wasn't the MAX, but now that's the first thing you think when anything airline related happens.  That's what Boeing has done to itself.

 
Terminalxylem said:
Just watched a brief documentary on the Smithsonian channel. Pretty horrific all the mistakes/intentional oversights made by Boeing.  Though an argument can be made they're the most safe aircraft after all the scrutiny, I'm still not interested in putting money in Boeing's pocket after what they've done.

While I realize this crusade may be futile, any other FBGs avoiding the MAX? How?
Click to expand...
I agree, I haven't flown in a while but blaming pilots and withholding information should be punished more.  The most insightful thing to me was to see how great Boeing actually was and how greed killed a company that upheld the highest values.  There is no fix in our current environment that I know of but we should strive to have pre merger Boeing like companies especially in that industry.

 
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