BountyGate vs SpyGate (1 Viewer)

[E_Smith]

I hate the Patriots but I have to say Bounty Gate. This wasn't paying for "big plays" this was paying for INJURIES. I was sickened to read that one of the categories was "Cart offs." How anyone would pay extra to hurt another person so badly that they need to be carted off the field is disgusting. I'm all for hard hits and rattling people's cages but to go out with the intention to do such bodily harm that they can't move off under their own power is twisted.My two cents.

I'm not connecting the dots the same way you are. Wouldn't knocking the opposing QB out of a game (with a legal hit) be considered a "big play"? It would seem that until this story broke, defenses who legally knocked an opposing player out of the game were held in high regard (as were the players who were thought to be "physical". Getting paid a little extra because a guy got carted off does NOT mean the defender who hit him played dirty or broke the rules. It could mean that the defender (and his teammates) were very focused on playing physical, hitting hard, and finishing off their tackles. Maybe that motivation came from the coaching staff. But that in and of itself is not dirty, nor is it illegal. In fact, in today's NFL, it's encouraged. If you're a defensive coordinator and you feel you can get a better result from your players and influence them to play harder and more physical, but within the rules, by pushing certain buttons and motivating them in certain ways, I'm confident you'll end up doing it... and you'll likely be considered a very good coach. Despite what I'm saying above, I don't feel it's a good practice for a team or coach(es) to implement this "bounty system" that rewards a player when the opposition gets injured. Celebrating injury to that extent doesn't seem acceptable. Over the course of time the line will get blurry to players as to which hits should be avoided versus encouraged. And of course there's the legal ramifications for the team and league too.

For me it's all about INTENTION. I agree with everything you said and in my second post I tried to clarify what I was saying that I expect players to play fast and hard. It's the intention to hurt somebody so badly that they can't walk on their own that I think crosses that line. I have NO PROBLEM with a big play pool. Blocking punts, getting sacks etc. But telling players if you HURT someone you get a bonus is just ridiculous.

I agree with this. Paying players to injure other players creates an incentive for hits that are more harmful...helmet to helmet, or leg shots, etc. Regardless whether the refs can penalize illegal hits, you don't want to allow incentives to violate those on the field rules. With the new policy on safety its clear the NFL has to come down hard on this one. And its irrelevant how many other teams have bounty systems. And to those saying that it doesn't change anything on the field, I disagree. It increases the chances of injury by creating that incentive and intention. If a player is knocked out of the game because of the bounty, then that team has clearly gained illegal advantage...we can't be sure if the hit would have occurred anyway, but we do know that the chances of injury causing hits are increased (otherwise, why would they bother with the bounty system to begin with?).

 

[sharptongued1]

Spygate has become the Pats fans' Tuck Rule. How fantastic.

Bounty Gate is much worse. Bountys can lead to the end of careers, for Pete's sake.

You're arguing what could happen. Not what actually happened. With that in mind, how is this, "much worse" than Spygate?

Spygate was cheating. Happens, in some form, at every level of every sport. BountyGate was the encouraging of injuries. NFL players, that is their career. It is what they do for a living. To pay bonuses for actions that put other people's career in jeopardy is terrible.

To point out that no such injuries occurred, as if that somehow makes it not a big deal, is pretty freaking stupid, to be perfectly honest.

And getting up in arms about, well, nothing, is pretty freaking stupid. Again, you're saying that, "nothing" is much worse than, "something." Mmkay...

 

[Run It Up]

Spygate has become the Pats fans' Tuck Rule. How fantastic.

Bounty Gate is much worse. Bountys can lead to the end of careers, for Pete's sake.

You're arguing what could happen. Not what actually happened. With that in mind, how is this, "much worse" than Spygate?

Spygate was cheating. Happens, in some form, at every level of every sport. BountyGate was the encouraging of injuries.

This was my thought process, but im obviously biased.

 

[Kit Fisto]

As I posted in the other BountyGate thread, it amazes me that people still don't understand WHY the Patriots got fined like they did.

• They did NOT tape the Rams pre-game walkthrough in 2001.

• They DID tape opposing team's signals. A LEGAL tactic (still).

• They taped opposing team's signals FROM THE SIDELINES, an area specifically laid out by the Commish in his memo as illegal. Tape from the booth, sure. Sidelines, no.

• They got caught still taping from the sidelines, and got whacked for it.

They didn't gain any competitive advantage from the sidleines that they couldn't have gotten legally from the booth. Why Belichick still did it, who knows? Belichick essentially said "#### YOU" to the Commish; that's why the example was made of the Pats.

So I kinda sympathize with Saints fans here. The media and weak-minded children who like to throw out words like "cheaters" don't bother me, because it just shows me how ignorant they really are.

Saints fans, you can't win. Accept your punishment, and wait for the next team to get caught doing something illegal and enjoy all the self-righteous indignation that comes with it! Soon enough, it'll be someone else's team, rest assured...

 

[houndirish]

Especially in NY, major scandal, the Jets and Giants beat writers are going to be all over that.

Agree. I am talking about the way the league would potentially deal with it, not the media reaction.

Considering the other option in this poll is a team perceived to be one of the "jewel" franchises and they got stung by the NFL for their infractions I don't see how your theory of preferential treatment based on offending franchise holds any merit. Taking into account that the NFL is put in the crosshairs for legal action based on this story I tend to think Goodell and company would flex their muscles regardless of the offending team. This whole "woe is the Saints" and playing the victim card mentality is weak. Saints ownership got put on notice to stop this. Saints GM and Head Coach did nothing despite the message from the league. NFL became fully aware of this. Saints will get slapped. This is pretty simple stuff here. I don't see what the issue is. How are the Saints getting abused?

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

As I posted in the other BountyGate thread, it amazes me that people still don't understand WHY the Patriots got fined like they did.

• They did NOT tape the Rams pre-game walkthrough in 2001.

• They DID tape opposing team's signals. A LEGAL tactic (still).

• They taped opposing team's signals FROM THE SIDELINES, an area specifically laid out by the Commish in his memo as illegal. Tape from the booth, sure. Sidelines, no.

• They got caught still taping from the sidelines, and got whacked for it.

They didn't gain any competitive advantage from the sidleines that they couldn't have gotten legally from the booth. Why Belichick still did it, who knows? Belichick essentially said "#### YOU" to the Commish; that's why the example was made of the Pats.

So I kinda sympathize with Saints fans here. The media and weak-minded children who like to throw out words like "cheaters" don't bother me, because it just shows me how ignorant they really are.

Saints fans, you can't win. Accept your punishment, and wait for the next team to get caught doing something illegal and enjoy all the self-righteous indignation that comes with it! Soon enough, it'll be someone else's team, rest assured...

First of all let me make sure I point out that as a Steeler fan and a Patriots hater I understand that my opinion of spygate is surely clouded in a negative way towards the Patriots. That being said I feel that I have been able to be fairly subjective about it (especially the further removed we are from it occurring).

I have a hard time believing that the smartest coach in football (and I do believe Belichick is that) would do something that he was warned against or flat out asked to stop doing unless HE felt they were gaining any sort of competitive advantage from it. By taping it from the sidelines as opposed to the areas where they were legally allowed to do so he was TRYING to get an extra advantage and to think otherwise (in your words) just shows me how ignorant (you) really are.

What I remember in the years prior to spygate was how often I heard the talking heads on ESPN and elsewhere across the airwaves drone on and on about how well prepared the Patriots were from game to game and ESPECIALLY that NOBODY else in the league had been able to make in-game halftime adjustments like the Patriots seemed to make each and every week. I remember Whines Hard complaining after yet another Steeler loss to the Pats in the playoffs... Complaining that they knew everything that the Steelers were doing and that in the second half the Pats were even calling out the Steelers plays at times at the line of scrimmage.

I also remember them in the Super Bowl against the Eagles and Tom Brady was getting beat around early in the game with the Eagles blitzes. Suddenly in the second half their was a clear adjustment and every time the Eagles sent a blitz the Pats threw a screen right where the blitzes were coming from... Often times these screen plays were a result of Brady reading the D and calling a screen to counter it.

What does all that mean? Absolutely nothing on its own... Could the Pats players be so smart and talented to be able to make such incredible adjustments on their own without 'extra' help? Sure... Maybe..

But when spygate happened and the facts came out about that not being the first time that they had been caught it certainly got my attention. I mean don't you think that potentially knowing more of the answers would benefit any team in a league where the margins that separate winners and losers are often razor thin?

So let me pose it to you this way...

If you had to take a test and you knew that your career path was highly dependent on whether you passed this test, which method of preparation for that test would give you the BEST chance to pass it?

1.) Studying really really hard

2.) Studying really really hard plus doing a little extra (without cheating)

3.) Studying really really hard plus doing a little extra (without cheating) plus doing even a little more (by cheating)

the obvious answer is #3 gives you the best chance to pass the test but is it worth it? That's really the question...

I'm not sure anyone can really quantify how much or how little impact their decision to cheat actually had on the outcomes of games in the NFL but I think its pretty ignorant to blankly suggest that it had no impact at all.

...and just so we are clear they WERE "cheating" and thus could be called "cheaters" by anyone that so chooses to do so. I'm also not too naive to realize that they were probably not the only ones that had been caught but when you are caught in a public manner like they were then YES they had to pay the consequences.

also to clear the record... I voted for the bounties as being worse because of the extra element of gunning for injuries. They both suck.

and yeah I'm aware that the Steelers used steroids in the 70s so you can keep that one in your pocket.

 

[David Yudkin]

I'm not sure anyone can really quantify how much or how little impact their decision to cheat actually had on the outcomes of games in the NFL but I think its pretty ignorant to blankly suggest that it had no impact at all.

Here's the issue I have with most of the extracurricular activities that have gone on over the years. Technically, it's all cheating. And many teams have done things over the years that did not comply 100% with the rules. There are lots of things that beyond that went beyond the spirit of the rules. The question becomes, what impact did it have on the outcome of games. We will never know. My perception is that enough teams have done enough things over the years that they (in my mind) cancel each other out. I suspect if there really was an advantage to any of these things, it was psychological. Basically, teams felt that they had an advantage and that's what really helped them more than the act they were committing.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

To me this isn't so much about what we think, but about what the LEAGUE thinks.And I think that -- as we'll soon see when penalties are issued -- Goodell and his people consider this bounty situation a FAR more egregious problem.

To me that points to the bigger issue.Spygate had the potential to hurt the entire league. If the NFL acknowledged that the Patriots had "stolen" signals and won games or (gasp) championships because of it all hell breaks loose. The NFL as a whole loses credibility. Millions of fans and advertisers paid to watch and be involved with assumed fair competition, if the NFL acknowledges it wasn't that then the entire league is hurt and it opens the floodgates for dropped sponsors, lawsuits, etc. Goodell burned the tapes and basically said it was never to be discussed again. The Saints bounty gate is a great PR opportunity for the NFL to show that it is serious about protecting players safety, that improves the league image with fans and sponsors.

 

[Ron_Mexico]

102 -102

 

[Casting Couch]

I guess this question has been answered by the iron fist of Roger Goodell.

 

[Sinn Fein]

voted for both because i could.

/thread

 

[hines]

when I voted I expected it to be 90-10 in favor of BountyGate. simply stunning than people think the filming of plays can compare with inspiring intent to injure players. it's very lucky that there were no major injuries caused (though odds are some players got lasting brain damage from the cheap shots they got they just don't know about it yet).

SpyGate is cheating but this is a totally different level, the health and quality of life of every opponent was put more at risk every time someone played the Saints at the encouragement of their coaching staff

 

[Run It Up]

when I voted I expected it to be 90-10 in favor of BountyGate. simply stunning than people think the filming of plays can compare with inspiring intent to injure players. it's very lucky that there were no major injuries caused (though odds are some players got lasting brain damage from the cheap shots they got they just don't know about it yet). SpyGate is cheating but this is a totally different level, the health and quality of life of every opponent was put more at risk every time someone played the Saints at the encouragement of their coaching staff

A lot of butthurt people really hate the Pats and have a poor grasp on how hurting people for money is worse than cheating. Not to say its a 9:1 difference, but 1:1 is hilarious.

 

[encaitar]

It is without a doubt the Saints. Spygate pissed off fans of other teams. It could've caused some viewers to stop watching football if they felt that a team could cheat and the NFL wouldn't do anything about it. A fair and competitive balance is what the league always talks about and even the perception of that not being true would hurt the image of the league. Therefore, they had to be punished.

The Saints bounty program(and every other one in the league too) threatened the entirety of the NFL. Image that Brett Favre breaks his neck in that championship game and can't walk ever again. Then this news comes out. The NFL would be done. DONE. The amount the lawsuit would reach would cripple the league. Intentionally trying to hurt guys in a league that is fighting lawsuits by former injured players is a nightmare. Saints fans should be happy that Benson was actively trying to get rid of the program or the punishment could've been even worse. I wouldn't be surprised to see the players known to have participated in the program to also receive yearlong suspensions. Goodell has no choice but to go biblical with his punishments in this situation. Otherwise he can't claim to have the health of the players in his best interest and opens the NFL up to future lawsuits.

 

[Borat]

They are both pretty similar in that one team took the hit for something a whole bunch of other teams were obviously doing.

 

[delusional]

Spygate punishment was pure ####. Everyone knows the Pats got off pretty easy on that.

The Saints punishment is over the top though.

 

[GregR]

They are both pretty similar in that one team took the hit for twice getting caught doing something a whole bunch of other teams were obviously doing but never got caught at once, let alone twice.

Fixed.

 

[GregR]

I've already posted why I thought Bountygate was clearly worse. One aspect I really didn't think on enough though is the extent of the coverup involved.

I did mention that the Saints lied, and mentioned that Belichick tried to make excuses for what they did that the NFL said they didn't believe, but I was equating the two as similar.

But reading the NFL's statement, I think I was wrong to equate those. The Patriots may have lied that they thought it was legal, but as far as I know once an investigation began, they cooperated with the investigation fully and turned over everything they had.

The Saints lied throughout the investigation, it took a second one and a whistle blower to uncover all the details. A comparable offense by the Pats might have been denying they even taped anything but that one day, and destroying any tapes and records of team signals they had put together from them. Instead the Pats turned those over and cooperated.

The NFL went on at length about what was done by the individual Saints coaches to lie and cover it up. I think that was another big part why the punishment was more harsh.

 

[Bri]

what he said. Well done Greg.

Also, there's some famous articles of the great Tom Landry with binoculars in a hotel watching opponents practice and he'd supposedly diagram their plays and all. There's always been spying in the NFL. Offensive coordinators didn't start covering their mouths after spygate, they've been doing it a long time.

I believe there was an unwritten rule with spying and the NFL looking the other way and that BB and Co pushed the envelope in a blatant fashion forcing the NFL's hand.

Bounties have been done before and will probably happen again. Again though I think the Saints were blatant and forced the NFLs hand.

The NFL has done a lot for the Saints in the last so many years. I bet there's some backhandedness in this judgement as well.

 

[skedssays]

My guess is at least 10 other teams commited each infraction, and were not caught.

Were 10 other teams told to stop it and didn't?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I'm not sure anyone can really quantify how much or how little impact their decision to cheat actually had on the outcomes of games in the NFL but I think its pretty ignorant to blankly suggest that it had no impact at all.

Here's the issue I have with most of the extracurricular activities that have gone on over the years. Technically, it's all cheating. And many teams have done things over the years that did not comply 100% with the rules. There are lots of things that beyond that went beyond the spirit of the rules. The question becomes, what impact did it have on the outcome of games. We will never know. My perception is that enough teams have done enough things over the years that they (in my mind) cancel each other out. I suspect if there really was an advantage to any of these things, it was psychological. Basically, teams felt that they had an advantage and that's what really helped them more than the act they were committing.

The everybody does it excuse...When I was young, I smoked pot, most if not all of my friends smoked pot, I worked in an adults house one time when I was younger and saw he had a bong.. From that point on, I exclaimed, "everybody does it" Knowing full well, not everybody did.. But a lot of people did..Next example.. Throughout sports, there has been this unanimous (seemingly) tone that everybody is taking steroids.. Certainly there are enough players doing it that it seemed like they might all be doing it.. But for anyone with half a lick of common sense knows, that yes, maybe MANY players did.. But not all of them..My mother used to say, "if he(whoever) jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?".. And/Or "Two wrongs don't make a right"..No, not everybody was doing it... Maybe many, though you have no proof of that.. And no, the fact that someone else has cheated as well does not cancel out your cheating.. You are still a cheater...

 

[Carolina Hustler]

when I voted I expected it to be 90-10 in favor of BountyGate. simply stunning than people think the filming of plays can compare with inspiring intent to injure players. it's very lucky that there were no major injuries caused (though odds are some players got lasting brain damage from the cheap shots they got they just don't know about it yet). SpyGate is cheating but this is a totally different level, the health and quality of life of every opponent was put more at risk every time someone played the Saints at the encouragement of their coaching staff

A lot of butthurt people really hate the Pats and have a poor grasp on how hurting people for money is worse than cheating. Not to say its a 9:1 difference, but 1:1 is hilarious.

Hurting people for money or fame, seems to be a national sport, and a world wide sport for centuries... This holy-er then tho routine coming from a Pats fan is rather funny..This sport, since it's inception has always had an underlying, unwritten rule about hurting the opposition. The whole reason for the ferocious hits, and lack of fundamentally sound tackling is proof of it.. And if you deny that, you're crazy..Saints should have never formalized this in the form of anything that could be bad PR for the NFL.. But #### happens.. Now Goodell is forced to make a PR move..The severity of this penalty is tied to the potential damage to the league and the sport.. There are already mothers out there that don't want their kids playing football for fear of them getting hurt. This judgment is to appease the women, pansies, and patriots fans.. (yes that last one was just a little dig )

 

[simey]

This judgment is to appease the women, pansies, and patriots fans.. (yes that last one was just a little dig )

So all the people that are satisfied with the judgement are either women or pansies?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

This judgment is to appease the women, pansies, and patriots fans.. (yes that last one was just a little dig )

So all the people that are satisfied with the judgement are either women or pansies?

Were you satisfied?

 

[Run It Up]

when I voted I expected it to be 90-10 in favor of BountyGate. simply stunning than people think the filming of plays can compare with inspiring intent to injure players. it's very lucky that there were no major injuries caused (though odds are some players got lasting brain damage from the cheap shots they got they just don't know about it yet).

SpyGate is cheating but this is a totally different level, the health and quality of life of every opponent was put more at risk every time someone played the Saints at the encouragement of their coaching staff

A lot of butthurt people really hate the Pats and have a poor grasp on how hurting people for money is worse than cheating. Not to say its a 9:1 difference, but 1:1 is hilarious.

Hurting people for money or fame, seems to be a national sport, and a world wide sport for centuries... This holy-er then tho routine coming from a Pats fan is rather funny..

Do you think that this is an accurate depiction of what I said? Because if it is then my opinion of you hasnt changed, you still being a moron and all.And the difference is, everyone hounds the pats because of its hurting the "integrity of the game", like its suddenly an unwritten rule somewhere that just because there are people actively trying to hurt people that it doesnt have a direct negative impact on the "integrity of the game", especially not when people are profiting from it.

The depiction I was trying to draw was that football, integrity or not still takes 2nd fiddle to humanity.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

when I voted I expected it to be 90-10 in favor of BountyGate. simply stunning than people think the filming of plays can compare with inspiring intent to injure players. it's very lucky that there were no major injuries caused (though odds are some players got lasting brain damage from the cheap shots they got they just don't know about it yet).

SpyGate is cheating but this is a totally different level, the health and quality of life of every opponent was put more at risk every time someone played the Saints at the encouragement of their coaching staff

A lot of butthurt people really hate the Pats and have a poor grasp on how hurting people for money is worse than cheating. Not to say its a 9:1 difference, but 1:1 is hilarious.

Hurting people for money or fame, seems to be a national sport, and a world wide sport for centuries... This holy-er then tho routine coming from a Pats fan is rather funny..

Do you think that this is an accurate depiction of what I said? Because if it is then my opinion of you hasnt changed, you still being a moron and all.And the difference is, everyone hounds the pats because of its hurting the "integrity of the game", like its suddenly an unwritten rule somewhere that just because there are people actively trying to hurt people that it doesnt have a direct negative impact on the "integrity of the game", especially not when people are profiting from it.

The depiction I was trying to draw was that football, integrity or not still takes 2nd fiddle to humanity.

Would you say that there are regular season NFL games where there isn't at least one player on the field trying to hurt another?Note: I never said either side was right.. I'm pointing out the ridiculousness of some of the patriots fans. "The humanity"... "How disgusting.. someone intentionally trying to hurt another human being.."

 

[meanjoegreen]

This judgment is to appease the women, pansies, and patriots fans.. (yes that last one was just a little dig )

So all the people that are satisfied with the judgement are either women or pansies?

Were you satisfied?

I'm satisfied, and I'm a man. I guess that makes me a pansy in your book. Eh, being called a pansy by a loser doesn't bother me.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

This judgment is to appease the women, pansies, and patriots fans.. (yes that last one was just a little dig )

So all the people that are satisfied with the judgement are either women or pansies?

Were you satisfied?

I'm satisfied, and I'm a man. I guess that makes me a pansy in your book. Eh, being called a pansy by a loser doesn't bother me.

case closed..

 

[meanjoegreen]

This judgment is to appease the women, pansies, and patriots fans.. (yes that last one was just a little dig )

So all the people that are satisfied with the judgement are either women or pansies?

Were you satisfied?

I'm satisfied, and I'm a man. I guess that makes me a pansy in your book. Eh, being called a pansy by a loser doesn't bother me.

case closed..

What does bother me is that we both are Carolina Panther fans, and I find you to be an embarrassment to the fan base.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

This judgment is to appease the women, pansies, and patriots fans.. (yes that last one was just a little dig )

So all the people that are satisfied with the judgement are either women or pansies?

Were you satisfied?

I'm satisfied, and I'm a man. I guess that makes me a pansy in your book. Eh, being called a pansy by a loser doesn't bother me.

case closed..

What does bother me is that we both are Carolina Panther fans, and I find you to be an embarrassment to the fan base.

 

[Borat]

I just wish people would stop calling things "...gate" when something goes wrong.

 

[PatsFanCT]

The patriots by far. Their 2001 title should be stripped and vacated. They cost mike Martz a legacy and Kurt Warner the hall of fame

Yep.

I said this once already in this thread. What the heck does this mean? The Patriots were never found to do anything at all involving the Ramd game.

Not that I should be putting words in people's mouths here so I'll give you my interpretation which I can see making sense in a way.Just because the Patriots were not caught taping the game there was a report that stemmed from it. Rams players talked about how the Patriots were perfectly prepared for a goal line stand on a play the Rams had not run once during the regular season. They had practiced it during the walk-through which was purportedly taped and this led to speculation that the Patriots may have had information they shouldn't have.Going forward, it remains to be seen if the team gets as many hometown discounts and cheap veteran signings if they don't win that Superbowl.Now the counter argument is pretty simple: great plays get stopped every game--why was this one destined to work? What proof outside of the tapes from years later is there that this had happened in previous seasons? The conspiracy theorists say this is the reason Goodell destroyed all of the tapes--to remove the tarnish of the Pats Superbowl wins. I'm not sure I buy that though.I will say that once a team wins a Superbowl other players want to go there, especially players who desire or feel they deserve a ring on top of their career.

None of this is true.The only time any mention of the Pats taping the Rams walk through came out seven years later, the week before the Pats Giants Super Bowl. And they quickly found out that the story was made up.At that time Mike Martz was asked his opinion of the allegations. His response was that the only thing they could have taped was their Red Zone walk through... The Rams entered the Red Zone exactly one time during that Super Bowl. And they scored.I understand people love to hate, and that's ok. I find the ignorance comical, actually.

 

[PatsFanCT]

As I posted in the other BountyGate thread, it amazes me that people still don't understand WHY the Patriots got fined like they did.

• They did NOT tape the Rams pre-game walkthrough in 2001.

• They DID tape opposing team's signals. A LEGAL tactic (still).

• They taped opposing team's signals FROM THE SIDELINES, an area specifically laid out by the Commish in his memo as illegal. Tape from the booth, sure. Sidelines, no.

• They got caught still taping from the sidelines, and got whacked for it.

They didn't gain any competitive advantage from the sidleines that they couldn't have gotten legally from the booth. Why Belichick still did it, who knows? Belichick essentially said "#### YOU" to the Commish; that's why the example was made of the Pats.

So I kinda sympathize with Saints fans here. The media and weak-minded children who like to throw out words like "cheaters" don't bother me, because it just shows me how ignorant they really are.

Saints fans, you can't win. Accept your punishment, and wait for the next team to get caught doing something illegal and enjoy all the self-righteous indignation that comes with it! Soon enough, it'll be someone else's team, rest assured...

First of all let me make sure I point out that as a Steeler fan and a Patriots hater I understand that my opinion of spygate is surely clouded in a negative way towards the Patriots. That being said I feel that I have been able to be fairly subjective about it (especially the further removed we are from it occurring).

I have a hard time believing that the smartest coach in football (and I do believe Belichick is that) would do something that he was warned against or flat out asked to stop doing unless HE felt they were gaining any sort of competitive advantage from it. By taping it from the sidelines as opposed to the areas where they were legally allowed to do so he was TRYING to get an extra advantage and to think otherwise (in your words) just shows me how ignorant (you) really are.

What I remember in the years prior to spygate was how often I heard the talking heads on ESPN and elsewhere across the airwaves drone on and on about how well prepared the Patriots were from game to game and ESPECIALLY that NOBODY else in the league had been able to make in-game halftime adjustments like the Patriots seemed to make each and every week. I remember Whines Hard complaining after yet another Steeler loss to the Pats in the playoffs... Complaining that they knew everything that the Steelers were doing and that in the second half the Pats were even calling out the Steelers plays at times at the line of scrimmage.

I also remember them in the Super Bowl against the Eagles and Tom Brady was getting beat around early in the game with the Eagles blitzes. Suddenly in the second half their was a clear adjustment and every time the Eagles sent a blitz the Pats threw a screen right where the blitzes were coming from... Often times these screen plays were a result of Brady reading the D and calling a screen to counter it.

What does all that mean? Absolutely nothing on its own... Could the Pats players be so smart and talented to be able to make such incredible adjustments on their own without 'extra' help? Sure... Maybe..

But when spygate happened and the facts came out about that not being the first time that they had been caught it certainly got my attention. I mean don't you think that potentially knowing more of the answers would benefit any team in a league where the margins that separate winners and losers are often razor thin?

So let me pose it to you this way...

If you had to take a test and you knew that your career path was highly dependent on whether you passed this test, which method of preparation for that test would give you the BEST chance to pass it?

1.) Studying really really hard

2.) Studying really really hard plus doing a little extra (without cheating)

3.) Studying really really hard plus doing a little extra (without cheating) plus doing even a little more (by cheating)

the obvious answer is #3 gives you the best chance to pass the test but is it worth it? That's really the question...

I'm not sure anyone can really quantify how much or how little impact their decision to cheat actually had on the outcomes of games in the NFL but I think its pretty ignorant to blankly suggest that it had no impact at all.

...and just so we are clear they WERE "cheating" and thus could be called "cheaters" by anyone that so chooses to do so. I'm also not too naive to realize that they were probably not the only ones that had been caught but when you are caught in a public manner like they were then YES they had to pay the consequences.

also to clear the record... I voted for the bounties as being worse because of the extra element of gunning for injuries. They both suck.

and yeah I'm aware that the Steelers used steroids in the 70s so you can keep that one in your pocket.

So Brady and Belichick realized what everyone else knows about screen passing on blitzes, and that throws up a red flag?

Also, I hate to blow the air out of everyone's tires, but taping from the sidelines was not only legal that year, but the Pats weren't the only team to figure out the advantages of it.

 

[DropKick]

My guess is at least 10 other teams commited each infraction, and were not caught.

I agree with this... There is a "holier than thou" attitude among many fans who just don't look at the entire sports landscape with the same lens they look at the teams they hate.I have real heartburn with intentional injury and the rise in cheap shots that led to recent rule changes. But, in recent years, we've also seen numerous scandals including (but not limited to) tampering, salary cap violation, performance enhancing drugs of various flavors, video taping, a coach actually tripping a player, corrupt basketball officials, point shaving, and general thuggery (I may have invented that word - it applies to players who shoot other people including pregnant girl friends and themselves). I don't know who is "clean" anymore... Except for the Dolphins as they continue to suck.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

My guess is at least 10 other teams commited each infraction, and were not caught.

I agree with this... There is a "holier than thou" attitude among many fans who just don't look at the entire sports landscape with the same lens they look at the teams they hate.I have real heartburn with intentional injury and the rise in cheap shots that led to recent rule changes. But, in recent years, we've also seen numerous scandals including (but not limited to) tampering, salary cap violation, performance enhancing drugs of various flavors, video taping, a coach actually tripping a player, corrupt basketball officials, point shaving, and general thuggery (I may have invented that word - it applies to players who shoot other people including pregnant girl friends and themselves). I don't know who is "clean" anymore... Except for the Dolphins as they continue to suck.

O' look,.. The "every body is doing it" excuse again.. Does it ever get old?Thousands of people drink and drive.. Does that make it ok? Does that mean everybody is doing it?

 

[The Comedian]

I just wish people would stop calling things "...gate" when something goes wrong.

GateGate!

 

[griff321]

So for a whole lot of people a trophy>people. This country is fcked.

 

[DoubleG]

I just wish people would stop calling things "...gate" when something goes wrong.

Nah - they only call it "...gate" when someone gets caught.