Brady "obviosuly" on Decline? Masochists only... (1 Viewer)

[NE_REVIVAL]

In deference to the justified complaints of some, I am moving this discussion to it's own thread.

If you are not interested I completely understand, please just move on, there is absolutely no reason you need to even read, never mind post in this thread.

I am insane and the haters love them some hate, so this will likely not be pretty

A certain NE atogonist claims it is obvious that Brady is on the decline and I find the assertion to be rather absurd. I want to give this poster an oportunity to make a logical, rational arguement to support his assertion (he hasn't as of yet).

#2 ranked qb in the NFL

9 tds vs 2 Ints

Highest scoring offense in the NFL

3 Wins 1 loss and his last win made him the fastest QB in NFL history (modern day) to 100 wins.

I just don't see how anyone other than a totally biased hater can say Brady is "obviously" on the decline. 07 production? No, but how can anyone who has actually seen most of his play this year say he is "obviously" on the decline? The answer imo, is they can't and the assertion is nothing more than the wishfull thinking of a biased (Manning lover) Brady hater.

 

[CompetitiveEdgeFootball]

I think Switz logged out.

And I don't really feel like talking about this anymore either tbh.

 

[plyka]

Well, I don't consider myself a Brady hater, but comparing Brady to Manning is not really fair to Brady. Manning is in another league altogether. Football is not basketball, a sport where 1 individual can make a huge difference. Still 1 player cannot lead you to a championship even in basketball, just ask Mr. 5 championship rings, Kobe Bryant, who despite his brilliance could only get his horrible excuse for a team into the 1st round of the playoffs in the mid 2000's. Now with an actual team around him he is back to back champion. My point? The only area Brady has a win over Manning is the number of Super Bowls Brady has won. But no player by himself can even come close to winning a championship in basketball, no less a championship in football. So it is really unfair to use the number of superbowl rings against Manning. In a vacuum, it is rather obvious that Manning is by far the better player. BY FAR and it's not even close.

As for decline, I'm not sure why anyone would say that Brady is in decline. He is close to the peak of his career.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Well, I don't consider myself a Brady hater, but comparing Brady to Manning is not really fair to Brady. Manning is in another league altogether. Football is not basketball, a sport where 1 individual can make a huge difference. Still 1 player cannot lead you to a championship even in basketball, just ask Mr. 5 championship rings, Kobe Bryant, who despite his brilliance could only get his horrible excuse for a team into the 1st round of the playoffs in the mid 2000's. Now with an actual team around him he is back to back champion. My point? The only area Brady has a win over Manning is the number of Super Bowls Brady has won. But no player by himself can even come close to winning a championship in basketball, no less a championship in football. So it is really unfair to use the number of superbowl rings against Manning. In a vacuum, it is rather obvious that Manning is by far the better player. BY FAR and it's not even close.

As for decline, I'm not sure why anyone would say that Brady is in decline. He is close to the peak of his career.

On topic, you are correct. Prorate his numbers YTD and you get 36 TDs vs 8 INTS. As usual, Switz is blinded by his NE hatred and cant make a defensible and rational argument.

 

[Neofight]

Well, I don't consider myself a Brady hater, but comparing Brady to Manning is not really fair to Brady. Manning is in another league altogether. Football is not basketball, a sport where 1 individual can make a huge difference. Still 1 player cannot lead you to a championship even in basketball, just ask Mr. 5 championship rings, Kobe Bryant, who despite his brilliance could only get his horrible excuse for a team into the 1st round of the playoffs in the mid 2000's. Now with an actual team around him he is back to back champion. My point? The only area Brady has a win over Manning is the number of Super Bowls Brady has won. But no player by himself can even come close to winning a championship in basketball, no less a championship in football. So it is really unfair to use the number of superbowl rings against Manning. In a vacuum, it is rather obvious that Manning is by far the better player. BY FAR and it's not even close.

As for decline, I'm not sure why anyone would say that Brady is in decline. He is close to the peak of his career.

I'll bite, if only because it is rather interesting to me when people make claims they don't back up: how is Manning BY FAR better than Brady?Enter Switz in 3.2.1...

And no, Brady is not in decline. Moss appears to be though, based on the last years worth of his performance.

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

Just nitpicking here, but NE doesn't have the #1 scoring offense. Unless you are counting special team and defensive TDs.

 

[Max Power]

A certain NE atogonist claims it is obvious that Brady is on the decline and I find the assertion to be rather absurd. I want to give this poster an oportunity to make a logical, rational arguement to support his assertion (he hasn't as of yet).

I think Switz logged out.

And I don't really feel like talking about this anymore either tbh.

good luck with that...

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Well the Brady vs Manning argument is pretty old. Personally, if the goal is winning chamipionships I'd take Brady. I won't belabor that, all the arguments have been made (but in the end Brady has 3 SB wins by 3 points, vs how many playoff games has Manning lost where he supposedly had a superior team, does anyone have enough digits for that? Manning can be gameplanned for.). And Brady is not the only QB I would choose over Manning for that specific goal.

I don't think Brady is in decline at all.

Here's a test of Brady's ability:

{Yeah, yeah, I know, Brady did great before Moss, but...}

Will Moss going to MIN make Favre more productive?

Will Moss going to MIN make Brady, Welker, Hernandez and Tate more productive, or less? We know the running game is not like it was pre-Moss (there's no Dillon now...).

We'll see.

 

[Road Warriors]

Well the Brady vs Manning argument is pretty old. Personally, if the goal is winning chamipionships I'd take Brady. I won't belabor that, all the arguments have been made (but in the end Brady has 3 SB wins by 3 points, vs how many playoff games has Manning lost where he supposedly had a superior team, does anyone have enough digits for that? Manning can be gameplanned for.). And Brady is not the only QB I would choose over Manning for that specific goal.I don't think Brady is in decline at all.Here's a test of Brady's ability:{Yeah, yeah, I know, Brady did great before Moss, but...}Will Moss going to MIN make Favre more productive?Will Moss going to MIN make Brady, Welker, Hernandez and Tate more productive, or less? We know the running game is not like it was pre-Moss (there's no Dillon now...).We'll see.

Moss to MIN will make Favre more productive. I think there's almost no chance that doesn't happen, and the only way it doesn't is if Favre is done. One caveat... There are about 15 or 20 other receivers that MIN could have added to make Favre more productive. MIN receiving options were among the worst in the league. That said, I don't think that any other receiver coming to MIN would have as much of a positive impact on the overall offense as Moss.Moss to MIN will make Tate more productive, through opportunity if nothing else. I don't think it will make Brady or Welker more productive, and quite possibly will make Welker less productive than he has been, drawing more coverage. Hernandez will probably get an uptick as well. I think Brady's production in yards and TDs will drop from pre-season projections. I think his y/g will increase from his 1st 4 game average. I think his TD/gm will drop from his 1st 4 game average. In general, I expect that the NE passing offense will be more productive than it has been in the 1st 4 games, but for the most part that will not be due to Moss departing, but game situation. NE seems to have an opportunistic defense, but not a shutdown one. The Patriots will be in enough games over the next 12 that they will need to outscore the opponent, and in those games we'll see an increase in passing stats. So far this year, NE has had a 4 TD lead starting the 2nd v. CIN ( Brady 10/11/1 2nd half) and had one meaningful drive ( not counting the 2 play BJGE TD after the blocked punt ) in the 2nd half v. MIA (Brady 5/6/1 2nd half ) due to special teams. With a lead, NE will balance their offense and use a short passing attack to move the chains & run the clock. I believe this team will be able to compete in shoot-outs, if the situation demands it. And in those games I would expect a greater output from the passing game than we've seen. I don't think any decline in stats from Brady or NE passing attack is due to a Brady decline, but a change from the hi-flying '07 score every time attitude to a more balanced, controlled offense that adjusts to game situation. Kind of like the early championship Patriots philosophy.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

This thread is interesting. No, wait. The other thing.

switz is as rational with the Patriots as LHUCKS is with Leinart. Logic, facts, and reason have no bearing on the man so it's best if you just nod your head and ignore him.

I still like switz and think he's a good poster, just not when it comes to the Patriots or Felix Jones.

 

[identikit]

This thread is interesting. No, wait. The other thing. switz is as rational with the Patriots as LHUCKS is with Leinart. Logic, facts, and reason have no bearing on the man so it's best if you just nod your head and ignore him.I still like switz and think he's a good poster, just not when it comes to the Patriots or Felix Jones.

or Addai.

 

[The_U]

I still like switz and think he's a good poster, just not when it comes to the Patriots or Felix Jones.

Along with the Addai listing that followed this one I agree whole heartedly. On the issue of Brady in decline? No way, and I think we'll see why in coming weeks. I don't expect Tom to play any worse without Moss, and I actually expect him to play better.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

This thread is interesting. No, wait. The other thing.

switz is as rational with the Patriots as LHUCKS is with Leinart. Logic, facts, and reason have no bearing on the man so it's best if you just nod your head and ignore him.

I still like switz and think he's a good poster, just not when it comes to the Patriots or Felix Jones.

I don't know too much about Lhucks, but I couldn't agree more with everything else you said and I know I should ignore, but I am weak and I just can't help myself sometimes.

FTR, this is not Manning v Brady thread, Manning is better, lets just move on (make ur own thread if u want).

FTR2, The following is not related to the "obvious" decline assertion, (other than it put me in a foul mood), but I feel I should mention it. Hating and obsessively posting negatively on NE thread after NE thread is one thing, but hiding behind alias's (the Stingley stuff), where does that kind of hate come from?

Ok, back to our regularly scheduled programming:

Brady "obviously" in decline? Not logical or rational, just hate imo.

 

[Donnybrook]

Well the Brady vs Manning argument is pretty old. Personally, if the goal is winning chamipionships I'd take Brady. I won't belabor that, all the arguments have been made (but in the end Brady has 3 SB wins by 3 points, vs how many playoff games has Manning lost where he supposedly had a superior team, does anyone have enough digits for that? Manning can be gameplanned for.). And Brady is not the only QB I would choose over Manning for that specific goal.

I don't think Brady is in decline at all.

Here's a test of Brady's ability:

{Yeah, yeah, I know, Brady did great before Moss, but...}

Will Moss going to MIN make Favre more productive?

Will Moss going to MIN make Brady, Welker, Hernandez and Tate more productive, or less? We know the running game is not like it was pre-Moss (there's no Dillon now...).

We'll see.

Moss to MIN will make Favre more productive. I think there's almost no chance that doesn't happen, and the only way it doesn't is if Favre is done. One caveat... There are about 15 or 20 other receivers that MIN could have added to make Favre more productive. MIN receiving options were among the worst in the league. That said, I don't think that any other receiver coming to MIN would have as much of a positive impact on the overall offense as Moss.Moss to MIN will make Tate more productive, through opportunity if nothing else. I don't think it will make Brady or Welker more productive, and quite possibly will make Welker less productive than he has been, drawing more coverage. Hernandez will probably get an uptick as well. I think Brady's production in yards and TDs will drop from pre-season projections. I think his y/g will increase from his 1st 4 game average. I think his TD/gm will drop from his 1st 4 game average.

In general, I expect that the NE passing offense will be more productive than it has been in the 1st 4 games, but for the most part that will not be due to Moss departing, but game situation. NE seems to have an opportunistic defense, but not a shutdown one. The Patriots will be in enough games over the next 12 that they will need to outscore the opponent, and in those games we'll see an increase in passing stats. So far this year, NE has had a 4 TD lead starting the 2nd v. CIN ( Brady 10/11/1 2nd half) and had one meaningful drive ( not counting the 2 play BJGE TD after the blocked punt ) in the 2nd half v. MIA (Brady 5/6/1 2nd half ) due to special teams. With a lead, NE will balance their offense and use a short passing attack to move the chains & run the clock.

I believe this team will be able to compete in shoot-outs, if the situation demands it. And in those games I would expect a greater output from the passing game than we've seen. I don't think any decline in stats from Brady or NE passing attack is due to a Brady decline, but a change from the hi-flying '07 score every time attitude to a more balanced, controlled offense that adjusts to game situation. Kind of like the early championship Patriots philosophy.

Thanks for starting with this. It saved me the trouble of reading the rest of your opinion.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

In deference to the justified complaints of some, I am moving this discussion to it's own thread. If you are not interested I completely understand, please just move on, there is absolutely no reason you need to even read, never mind post in this thread.I am insane and the haters love them some hate, so this will likely not be pretty A certain NE atogonist claims it is obvious that Brady is on the decline and I find the assertion to be rather absurd. I want to give this poster an oportunity to make a logical, rational arguement to support his assertion (he hasn't as of yet).#2 ranked qb in the NFL9 tds vs 2 IntsHighest scoring offense in the NFL3 Wins 1 loss and his last win made him the fastest QB in NFL history (modern day) to 100 wins. I just don't see how anyone other than a totally biased hater can say Brady is "obviously" on the decline. 07 production? No, but how can anyone who has actually seen most of his play this year say he is "obviously" on the decline? The answer imo, is they can't and the assertion is nothing more than the wishfull thinking of a biased (Manning lover) Brady hater.

wow u weren't kidding on that masochism thing...switz------->you

 

[Road Warriors]

Well the Brady vs Manning argument is pretty old. Personally, if the goal is winning chamipionships I'd take Brady. I won't belabor that, all the arguments have been made (but in the end Brady has 3 SB wins by 3 points, vs how many playoff games has Manning lost where he supposedly had a superior team, does anyone have enough digits for that? Manning can be gameplanned for.). And Brady is not the only QB I would choose over Manning for that specific goal.

I don't think Brady is in decline at all.

Here's a test of Brady's ability:

{Yeah, yeah, I know, Brady did great before Moss, but...}

Will Moss going to MIN make Favre more productive?

Will Moss going to MIN make Brady, Welker, Hernandez and Tate more productive, or less? We know the running game is not like it was pre-Moss (there's no Dillon now...).

We'll see.

Moss to MIN will make Favre more productive. I think there's almost no chance that doesn't happen, and the only way it doesn't is if Favre is done. One caveat... There are about 15 or 20 other receivers that MIN could have added to make Favre more productive. MIN receiving options were among the worst in the league. That said, I don't think that any other receiver coming to MIN would have as much of a positive impact on the overall offense as Moss.Moss to MIN will make Tate more productive, through opportunity if nothing else. I don't think it will make Brady or Welker more productive, and quite possibly will make Welker less productive than he has been, drawing more coverage. Hernandez will probably get an uptick as well. I think Brady's production in yards and TDs will drop from pre-season projections. I think his y/g will increase from his 1st 4 game average. I think his TD/gm will drop from his 1st 4 game average.

In general, I expect that the NE passing offense will be more productive than it has been in the 1st 4 games, but for the most part that will not be due to Moss departing, but game situation. NE seems to have an opportunistic defense, but not a shutdown one. The Patriots will be in enough games over the next 12 that they will need to outscore the opponent, and in those games we'll see an increase in passing stats. So far this year, NE has had a 4 TD lead starting the 2nd v. CIN ( Brady 10/11/1 2nd half) and had one meaningful drive ( not counting the 2 play BJGE TD after the blocked punt ) in the 2nd half v. MIA (Brady 5/6/1 2nd half ) due to special teams. With a lead, NE will balance their offense and use a short passing attack to move the chains & run the clock.

I believe this team will be able to compete in shoot-outs, if the situation demands it. And in those games I would expect a greater output from the passing game than we've seen. I don't think any decline in stats from Brady or NE passing attack is due to a Brady decline, but a change from the hi-flying '07 score every time attitude to a more balanced, controlled offense that adjusts to game situation. Kind of like the early championship Patriots philosophy.

Thanks for starting with this. It saved me the trouble of reading the rest of your opinion.

So you don't believe there are a number of receivers around the league that will help MIN offense? Berrian as the stretch the field option looks pretty poor. Shiancoe is a good receiver, but can be taken away with no deep threat ( see game 1, 2nd half ). I like Harvin, but again he'll be more productive with a deep threat so he can use his quicks out of the slot. The rest... Greg Lewis, Camarillo, Hank Baskett? This is not a good receiving corps. Last year, Rice provided that deep threat. This year, MIN offense doesn't look nearly as good, and I feel the lack of deep threat is the main reason. If you had continued to read, you'd note that I stated Moss would be the best addition to provide this deep threat that MIN lacks.

 

[CaptainHook]

I still like switz and think he's a good poster, just not when it comes to the Patriots or Felix Jones.

Along with the Addai listing that followed this one I agree whole heartedly. On the issue of Brady in decline? No way, and I think we'll see why in coming weeks. I don't expect Tom to play any worse without Moss, and I actually expect him to play better.

i guess it was just a coincidence that brady went from a career high of 28TDs before moss to 50 TDs with him?

 

[Road Warriors]

I still like switz and think he's a good poster, just not when it comes to the Patriots or Felix Jones.

Along with the Addai listing that followed this one I agree whole heartedly. On the issue of Brady in decline? No way, and I think we'll see why in coming weeks. I don't expect Tom to play any worse without Moss, and I actually expect him to play better.

i guess it was just a coincidence that brady went from a career high of 28TDs before moss to 50 TDs with him?

Nope, not coincidence at all. Brady got Moss and Welker, Belichick/McDaniel got far more aggressive in their playcalling, and the NFL had no film of that offense with those players running that system, so they ran wild for a season. A huge part of that was Moss running deep and Brady hitting him when open. Moss had, especially early in the year, more single coverage than he had seen in some time.Biggest shift from '07 to '10 is the defenses have now seen the film, and have devised schemes to better guard against what was so successful for NE in'07. NE '10 with Moss had lots of room underneath, giving Brady a very high completion % and lower Y/A by taking what the defense was giving. NE '10 without Moss... we'll see. Maybe the D floods the middle of the field, bracketing Welker and taking away the quick reads. Maybe that leaves Tate or Hernandez in single coverage downfield and creates new deep opportunities. Whether this is successful will depend on whether the young receivers can take advantage of single coverage and get seperation, and whether Brady can deliver the ball to the open receiver.

I'm pretty convinced the latter will happen. The open question is the former... can the NE recievers get open against what the Defense tries to take away?

 

[Warrior]

system qb

 

[switz]

FTR2, The following is not related to the "obvious" decline assertion, (other than it put me in a foul mood), but I feel I should mention it. Hating and obsessively posting negatively on NE thread after NE thread is one thing, but hiding behind alias's (the Stingley stuff), where does that kind of hate come from?

Are you accusing me of this? I'm pretty sure FBGs can check poster's IP addresses, and confirm I don't use aliases.

I posted why I think Brady is declining, more specifically in what areas of his game. I still think he's a good QB, I just don't forsee many great FF seasons for him moving forward. We'll let this season play out, but I expect his TD production to drop significantly without Moss. Perhaps not the game after their BYE, since it will be a "statement game" to prove they don't need Moss. But moving forward, yeah, I think you'll see his performance is not what it was.

 

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

Well, I don't consider myself a Brady hater, but comparing Brady to Manning is not really fair to Brady. Manning is in another league altogether. Football is not basketball, a sport where 1 individual can make a huge difference. Still 1 player cannot lead you to a championship even in basketball, just ask Mr. 5 championship rings, Kobe Bryant, who despite his brilliance could only get his horrible excuse for a team into the 1st round of the playoffs in the mid 2000's. Now with an actual team around him he is back to back champion. My point? The only area Brady has a win over Manning is the number of Super Bowls Brady has won. But no player by himself can even come close to winning a championship in basketball, no less a championship in football. So it is really unfair to use the number of superbowl rings against Manning. In a vacuum, it is rather obvious that Manning is by far the better player. BY FAR and it's not even close.

As for decline, I'm not sure why anyone would say that Brady is in decline. He is close to the peak of his career.

I'll bite, if only because it is rather interesting to me when people make claims they don't back up: how is Manning BY FAR better than Brady?Enter Switz in 3.2.1...

And no, Brady is not in decline. Moss appears to be though, based on the last years worth of his performance.

That article gets a huge FAIL from me, based on their understanding of coverages. Basically, they have no clue what they are talking about.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

FTR2, The following is not related to the "obvious" decline assertion, (other than it put me in a foul mood), but I feel I should mention it. Hating and obsessively posting negatively on NE thread after NE thread is one thing, but hiding behind alias's (the Stingley stuff), where does that kind of hate come from?

Are you accusing me of this? I'm pretty sure FBGs can check poster's IP addresses, and confirm I don't use aliases.

I posted why I think Brady is declining, more specifically in what areas of his game. I still think he's a good QB, I just don't forsee many great FF seasons for him moving forward. We'll let this season play out, but I expect his TD production to drop significantly without Moss. Perhaps not the game after their BYE, since it will be a "statement game" to prove they don't need Moss. But moving forward, yeah, I think you'll see his performance is not what it was.

Its reasonable to assume Brady going from 36-38 TDs with Moss to 30-32 without.What's of questionable logic and motivation is to take this scenario as evidence of a decline.

 

[faulkfan]

If I had to make a prediction I am guessing Brady gets hurt and misses some games because defenses will throw blitzes at him like there is no tomorrow, which could lead to him getting banged up. He doesn't have the horses with Moss to keep them honest. However, losing Moss may well turn Brady into Trent Edwards and Kevin Kolb in that he becomes the master of the check down. I could see him not throwing a pass over 25 yards the rest of the season on anything other than a trick play.

I think those who want to suggest he falls off the map are haters, but those who are trying to pitch the idea he will not suffer without Moss are most likely either blindly loyal or trying to trade him in one of their leagues....

 

[norgay]

Well, I don't consider myself a Brady hater, but comparing Brady to Manning is not really fair to Brady. Manning is in another league altogether. Football is not basketball, a sport where 1 individual can make a huge difference. Still 1 player cannot lead you to a championship even in basketball, just ask Mr. 5 championship rings, Kobe Bryant, who despite his brilliance could only get his horrible excuse for a team into the 1st round of the playoffs in the mid 2000's. Now with an actual team around him he is back to back champion. My point? The only area Brady has a win over Manning is the number of Super Bowls Brady has won. But no player by himself can even come close to winning a championship in basketball, no less a championship in football. So it is really unfair to use the number of superbowl rings against Manning. In a vacuum, it is rather obvious that Manning is by far the better player. BY FAR and it's not even close.

As for decline, I'm not sure why anyone would say that Brady is in decline. He is close to the peak of his career.

On topic, you are correct. Prorate his numbers YTD and you get 36 TDs vs 8 INTS. As usual, Switz is blinded by his NE hatred and cant make a defensible and rational argument.

I guess it depends if you are talking about FF or real football. From a FF standpoint, sure, those stats show he's not in decline, but it also fails to take into account the fact that his TD production will most likely drop after Moss leaves so his FF production likely will decline going forward.But from a real NFL perspective, those stats you posted, and the fact that his TD production will most likely drop after Moss leaves is irrelevant. Stats don't tell a QB's story. Brady reads defenses, buys himself time, motivates players, provides leadership, runs an offense, and is as accurate with his throws as I've ever seen him. From a real NFL perspective he most certainly is not on the decline. There's nothing he could do 2 years ago that he can't do today - statistical differences are due to team strategy, philosophy and playcalling -- that's it.

 

[Road Warriors]

Well, I don't consider myself a Brady hater, but comparing Brady to Manning is not really fair to Brady. Manning is in another league altogether. Football is not basketball, a sport where 1 individual can make a huge difference. Still 1 player cannot lead you to a championship even in basketball, just ask Mr. 5 championship rings, Kobe Bryant, who despite his brilliance could only get his horrible excuse for a team into the 1st round of the playoffs in the mid 2000's. Now with an actual team around him he is back to back champion. My point? The only area Brady has a win over Manning is the number of Super Bowls Brady has won. But no player by himself can even come close to winning a championship in basketball, no less a championship in football. So it is really unfair to use the number of superbowl rings against Manning. In a vacuum, it is rather obvious that Manning is by far the better player. BY FAR and it's not even close.

As for decline, I'm not sure why anyone would say that Brady is in decline. He is close to the peak of his career.

On topic, you are correct. Prorate his numbers YTD and you get 36 TDs vs 8 INTS. As usual, Switz is blinded by his NE hatred and cant make a defensible and rational argument.

I guess it depends if you are talking about FF or real football. From a FF standpoint, sure, those stats show he's not in decline, but it also fails to take into account the fact that his TD production will most likely drop after Moss leaves so his FF production likely will decline going forward.But from a real NFL perspective, those stats you posted, and the fact that his TD production will most likely drop after Moss leaves is irrelevant. Stats don't tell a QB's story. Brady reads defenses, buys himself time, motivates players, provides leadership, runs an offense, and is as accurate with his throws as I've ever seen him. From a real NFL perspective he most certainly is not on the decline. There's nothing he could do 2 years ago that he can't do today - statistical differences are due to team strategy, philosophy and playcalling -- that's it.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

FTR2, The following is not related to the "obvious" decline assertion, (other than it put me in a foul mood), but I feel I should mention it. Hating and obsessively posting negatively on NE thread after NE thread is one thing, but hiding behind alias's (the Stingley stuff), where does that kind of hate come from?

I posted why I think Brady is declining, more specifically in what areas of his game. I still think he's a good QB, I just don't forsee many great FF seasons for him moving forward. We'll let this season play out, but I expect his TD production to drop significantly without Moss. Perhaps not the game after their BYE, since it will be a "statement game" to prove they don't need Moss. But moving forward, yeah, I think you'll see his performance is not what it was.

I don't remember you qualifying any of your earlier statements with "FF"? But it is obvious why you would want to make it about that now since NE lost their #1 deep threat and they look like they will go to a shorter passging game. FTR, TD wise I don't see much difference.But I am not going to allow you to revise what you said and the context with wich you said it, since it is at the heart of your lack of credibility with regard to NE & Brady.

This is the original exchange:

QUOTE (Neofight @ Oct 8 2010, 10:22 AM)

I would have to disagree to an extent about who Moss' play is on thus far. While Brady has made some bad decisions his accuracy has been excellent in both the preseason and early regular season, when throwing to every other Patriot.

QUOTE (switz @ Oct 8 2010, 10:29 AM)

Maybe you just missed all the passes he threw to other players. It's pretty obvious that Brady's play has been in decline.

A. You specifically refer to Players other than Moss

B. It is HIGHLY unlikely you have seen more than 50% of Brady's plays this year and yet you speak like youv'e watched every snap.

The guy is the #2 rated QB in the league, and leading the #1 (or thereabouts) offense in the league.

You claimed that if one were to watch Bradys throws to players other than Moss, it would be obvious that Bradys play has been in decline. Well I have watched those plays (you haven't) and there is absolutely no rational basis (statistical or otherwise) in fact for your comments. What is "obvious" is you are a Manning lover who feels obligated to dis Brady whenever u can and your comments with regard to brady are highly biased, and have no credibility.

It's not personal, I don't think you are a bad guy and I know you are pretty knowledgeable on other subjects. I have seen you make well thought out posts on other subjects, but you have no cred with Brady. Apparently your love of manning compels you to dis brady and as in this case you often end up saying some pretty silly things.

 

[switz]

The guy is the #2 rated QB in the league, and leading the #1 (or thereabouts) offense in the league.

You claimed that if one were to watch Bradys throws to players other than Moss, it would be obvious that Bradys play has been in decline. Well I have watched those plays (you haven't) and there is absolutely no rational basis (statistical or otherwise) in fact for your comments. What is "obvious" is you are a Manning lover who feels obligated to dis Brady whenever u can and your comments with regard to brady are highly biased, and have no credibility.

First, you really have no idea about me. You accuse me of using an alias (I don't), you say I havent seen much of Brady's play (I have seen about 80% of his snaps) and that I dis Brady due to some Manning thing (Manning and Brady are totally unrelated IMO)Second, there are statistics outside of passer rating. For instance, Brady's YPA is among the lowest in his career, the lowest since 2004 not counting the season he was injured. You don't think that could be related to missing on his long throws? And instead of admitting that might be the case, you insist Moss is on the decline.

So, basically you say I'm blind about Brady due to some hatred, but I'd say you are the one that's blind dud to your live of Brady and the Pats. You are farther from unbiased than I am.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

The guy is the #2 rated QB in the league, and leading the #1 (or thereabouts) offense in the league.

You claimed that if one were to watch Bradys throws to players other than Moss, it would be obvious that Bradys play has been in decline. Well I have watched those plays (you haven't) and there is absolutely no rational basis (statistical or otherwise) in fact for your comments. What is "obvious" is you are a Manning lover who feels obligated to dis Brady whenever u can and your comments with regard to brady are highly biased, and have no credibility.

First, you really have no idea about me. You accuse me of using an alias (I don't), you say I havent seen much of Brady's play (I have seen about 80% of his snaps) and that I dis Brady due to some Manning thing (Manning and Brady are totally unrelated IMO)

I know exactly who you (posting MO) are and I have been reading your brady/ne hate nonsense for years. Again, I don’t have anything against you, but your dogged determination to trash Brady and prop up Manning leads you to say some pretty ridiculous stuff.For just 1 instance (trust me when I tell you I have more, a lot more), here is what you wrote before the 2007 season.

It is a classic.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...50&hl=brady

First you start a thread provocatively titled

“Are Brady's excuses gone?, Team signing premier WR talent”

This was BEFORE NE signed Moss and few people actually believed Brady had many excuses to make in the 1rst place.

Your first post read:

Brady fans have always said "If only he had Manning's WRs, he'd have better stats than Manning." Well now the Pats have signed Stallworth and Washington, both premier talents at the receiver position. This is in addition to having Gaffney and Caldwell, no slouches at all. If Brady doesn't have better stats than Manning this season, who will the blame be put on?

Very few people (IE, no one but you) considered Kelley Washington to be a premier talent and when people read what you wrote, they laughed, you replied that Kelley Washington was as good or better than Reggie Wayne.

Switz:

Stallworth was indeed a bargain, at the 1-year deal. If they keep him longer, it'll be pricey.

Washington, I don't know the terms of the deal, but he is every bit as good, if not better than Reggie Wayne. All you Colts fans can hate me if you want, but it's true.

This was of course a ludicrous claim to make, but the thread has all the elements of your MO. Manning - Brady, trash Brady for no particular reason, cherry pick some stats and make some ridiculous comments. So stop with the “I am innocent” stuff; it is perfectly appropriate to call you a manning lover who is totally biased about all things Brady (U R!). That’s ok, but you can’t be that way and then try to pretend your not.

The utterly sublime irony of your “If Brady doesn't have better stats than Manning this season, who will the blame be put on?” themed thread is not only did Brady have a better year than Manning that year; he had as good if not better year than Manning EVER had.

So, basically you say I'm blind about Brady due to some hatred, but I'd say you are the one that's blind dud to your live of Brady and the Pats. You are farther from unbiased than I am.

You ARE blind about Brady and unlike you I freely admit I certainly am biased toward Brady. The difference is I don’t have to make ridiculous comments and assertions to support my position and I don’t feel compelled to go out of my way to trash manning (other than when I am responding in kind to haters like u and Johnny_U etc).Back to your original post - You specifically refer to Players other than Moss when you said “Maybe you just missed all the passes he threw to other players. It's pretty obvious that Brady's play has been in decline.”

Brady’s completion percentage to other players was posted and the numbers are terrific. They haven’t thrown many passes deep to anyone other than Moss, so I ask again, what passes are you talking about? Do you have some specifics on “all” these other passes you refer to?

 

[blake]

wow. exposed.

and wow. how could anyone possibly say brady is on the decline? guy might be one of the 5 most enjoyable players to watch in the NFL.

 

[switz]

You had to dig back 3 years to find a "provocatively titled thread" to try to prove your point.

Well, at least you admit you are biased. Too bad you can't admit that because of that your replies to things are as ludicrous as you claim my posts are...

This has been fun, but we're 4 games into the season - almost through 5 actually - and I'd prefer to wait through the rest to see what happens. You can black dot this if you want. Haha.

 

[switz]

Wow, you complain about me - at least I'm not starting "Tom Brady looks like Justin Beeber" threads.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

You had to dig back 3 years to find a "provocatively titled thread" to try to prove your point.

Well, at least you admit you are biased. Too bad you can't admit that because of that your replies to things are as ludicrous as you claim my posts are...

This has been fun, but we're 4 games into the season - almost through 5 actually - and I'd prefer to wait through the rest to see what happens. You can black dot this if you want. Haha.

A. No I don't have to dig back 3 years, it is but 1 of MANY examples.Here is an unsolicited post from a 2008 thread Topic on Brady being behind schedule from his knee injury:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...0218&st=100

QUOTE (bostonfred @ Dec 28 2008, 03:39 PM)

Like him or not, it'd be a shame for football fans to miss out on multiple years of Tom Brady's career.

Switz:

Why?

After this season, I don't think anyone could convince me Brady was anything special as a QB. Sure, he had a GREAT season, playing the Bills, Jets, and Miami twice each, last year with Randy Moss, arguably the best WR talent-wise in the history of the game to throw to.

.................

I don't think the Pats are really pressed to have Brady return, or to franchise Cassel. They could bring in any QB and he'd flourish in that system.

Later in the same thread you go on to say:

QUOTE (switz @ Dec 31 2008, 04:10 PM)

If Brady s so great, why didn't Moss have his best season with him?

Your first post in that thread again really demonstrates your obsession with knocking Brady down (alternatively propping manning up).

2009 - http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...0&start=150

2010- http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=533219

2007 - http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...58698&st=50

There is more......

I don't make things up; I use your own quotes and they clearly speak for themselves.

Fair criticism is one thing, but when you say “Maybe you just missed all the passes he threw to other players. It's pretty obvious that Brady's play has been in decline.” you ought to be prepared to back it up, and you can't (at least not rationally or statistically).

I think we are done here; lets move on.

 

[cvnpoka]

The guy is the #2 rated QB in the league, and leading the #1 (or thereabouts) offense in the league.

You claimed that if one were to watch Bradys throws to players other than Moss, it would be obvious that Bradys play has been in decline. Well I have watched those plays (you haven't) and there is absolutely no rational basis (statistical or otherwise) in fact for your comments. What is "obvious" is you are a Manning lover who feels obligated to dis Brady whenever u can and your comments with regard to brady are highly biased, and have no credibility.

First, you really have no idea about me. You accuse me of using an alias (I don't), you say I havent seen much of Brady's play (I have seen about 80% of his snaps) and that I dis Brady due to some Manning thing (Manning and Brady are totally unrelated IMO)Second, there are statistics outside of passer rating. For instance, Brady's YPA is among the lowest in his career, the lowest since 2004 not counting the season he was injured. You don't think that could be related to missing on his long throws? And instead of admitting that might be the case, you insist Moss is on the decline.

So, basically you say I'm blind about Brady due to some hatred, but I'd say you are the one that's blind dud to your live of Brady and the Pats. You are farther from unbiased than I am.

his y/a is 7.5. it was 6.8 in 2006. so you only missed by 2 yrs. anyway, 7.5 isnt really far off from the 7.8 he put up in 04 05 and last yr, and its higher than his career avg of 7.3.ypa isnt a great stat bc it doesnt take into acct sacks, ints or tds. his any/a (which takes into acct all of those things) is the 2nd highest of his career, obv only the only higher season was his record breaking 07.

anyway, from a stat standpoint, brady has not declined at all. its possible that there are indeed visual indications of his decline. i kinda doubt it tho.

 

[ROBOPUNTER]

I don't think it's obvious he's in decline, but he is 33 years old. It's about that time.

Dan Fouts had a career season at 32. Played until 35.

Ken Anderson had a career season at 32. Played until 37, but ceased being a regular starter at 35. (yeah, he's not a HOF, but he should be)

Joe Montana had a career season at 33. Played until 38.

Dan Marino had a career season early in his career. He last had a pro-bowl season at the age of 35. Played until 38.

John Elway's play inclined until he retired at 38.

Warren Moon had a great season at the age of 38. He ceased being a regular starter at the age of 42. (eat your heart out Brett Favre)

Jim Kelly's last great season was at the age of 31. He retired at 36.

Troy Aikman's play started degrading at the age of 32.

I think it's probable that we've seen the best from both Brady and Manning, and both of their careers are on the back end now. That doesn't mean they aren't good, but even the greats' play falls off eventually. They probably have 5 or so years left as competent QBs at most.

 

[Road Warriors]

I don't think it's obvious he's in decline, but he is 33 years old. It's about that time.Dan Fouts had a career season at 32. Played until 35.Ken Anderson had a career season at 32. Played until 37, but ceased being a regular starter at 35. (yeah, he's not a HOF, but he should be)Joe Montana had a career season at 33. Played until 38.Dan Marino had a career season early in his career. He last had a pro-bowl season at the age of 35. Played until 38.John Elway's play inclined until he retired at 38.Warren Moon had a great season at the age of 38. He ceased being a regular starter at the age of 42. (eat your heart out Brett Favre)Jim Kelly's last great season was at the age of 31. He retired at 36.Troy Aikman's play started degrading at the age of 32.I think it's probable that we've seen the best from both Brady and Manning, and both of their careers are on the back end now. That doesn't mean they aren't good, but even the greats' play falls off eventually. They probably have 5 or so years left as competent QBs at most.

Fair point, based on age & longevity, to expect that Brady ( and other early/mid 30s QBs ) will decline. Manning is 1 year older, but also has not shown any decline in his level of play at this point.Using a combination of stats and the eyeball test, I have not seen evidence that Brady's decline has started. He looks better, to me, than last year. Outside of the '07 year, he looks as good or better than he has over the rest of his career. Using his record setting season as the measuring stick of "decline" is probably not the best measure.

 

[ROBOPUNTER]

Using his record setting season as the measuring stick of "decline" is probably not the best measure.

Why? Put the records beside. Didn't he look unstoppable that year? Why wouldn't you say that was his best year ever?

 

[Road Warriors]

Using his record setting season as the measuring stick of "decline" is probably not the best measure.

Why? Put the records beside. Didn't he look unstoppable that year? Why wouldn't you say that was his best year ever?

Of course it was his best year ever. He, and the entire offense, looked unstoppable that year. I don't expect that ( 4800/50 ) is his new baseline, however. Any more than I believe Manning is in decline because he hasn't come close to his record setting 2004 campaign. Exceptional statistical years do not define a new baseline for expected performance, IMO.

 

[ROBOPUNTER]

Using his record setting season as the measuring stick of "decline" is probably not the best measure.

Why? Put the records beside. Didn't he look unstoppable that year? Why wouldn't you say that was his best year ever?

Of course it was his best year ever. He, and the entire offense, looked unstoppable that year.

So he peaked.

 

[Neofight]

Well, I don't consider myself a Brady hater, but comparing Brady to Manning is not really fair to Brady. Manning is in another league altogether. Football is not basketball, a sport where 1 individual can make a huge difference. Still 1 player cannot lead you to a championship even in basketball, just ask Mr. 5 championship rings, Kobe Bryant, who despite his brilliance could only get his horrible excuse for a team into the 1st round of the playoffs in the mid 2000's. Now with an actual team around him he is back to back champion. My point? The only area Brady has a win over Manning is the number of Super Bowls Brady has won. But no player by himself can even come close to winning a championship in basketball, no less a championship in football. So it is really unfair to use the number of superbowl rings against Manning. In a vacuum, it is rather obvious that Manning is by far the better player. BY FAR and it's not even close.

As for decline, I'm not sure why anyone would say that Brady is in decline. He is close to the peak of his career.

I'll bite, if only because it is rather interesting to me when people make claims they don't back up: how is Manning BY FAR better than Brady?Enter Switz in 3.2.1...

And no, Brady is not in decline. Moss appears to be though, based on the last years worth of his performance.

That article gets a huge FAIL from me, based on their understanding of coverages. Basically, they have no clue what they are talking about.

Care to expand? You didn't even address their metrics...And as far as cover two & four go, they are right on.

 

[Neofight]

Using his record setting season as the measuring stick of "decline" is probably not the best measure.

Why? Put the records beside. Didn't he look unstoppable that year? Why wouldn't you say that was his best year ever?

Of course it was his best year ever. He, and the entire offense, looked unstoppable that year.

So he peaked.

Just like Manning peaked in '04. Don't even get me started on how bad he was in '08 with only 27 TD's, or last year with 16 pics. Did you see the game yesterday? The end is nigh!

 

[ROBOPUNTER]

Using his record setting season as the measuring stick of "decline" is probably not the best measure.

Why? Put the records beside. Didn't he look unstoppable that year? Why wouldn't you say that was his best year ever?

Of course it was his best year ever. He, and the entire offense, looked unstoppable that year.

So he peaked.

Just like Manning peaked in '04. Don't even get me started on how bad he was in '08 with only 27 TD's, or last year with 16 pics. Did you see the game yesterday? The end is nigh!

You remind me of WEEI. That radio station spends more time talking #### about the Yankees than talking about the Red Sox. I don't give a crap if Manning has peaked or not. But yeah sure, he peaked too. Does this satisfy you?

 

[Neofight]

Why? Put the records beside. Didn't he look unstoppable that year? Why wouldn't you say that was his best year ever?

Of course it was his best year ever. He, and the entire offense, looked unstoppable that year.

So he peaked.

Just like Manning peaked in '04. Don't even get me started on how bad he was in '08 with only 27 TD's, or last year with 16 pics. Did you see the game yesterday? The end is nigh!

You remind me of WEEI. That radio station spends more time talking #### about the Yankees than talking about the Red Sox. I don't give a crap if Manning has peaked or not. But yeah sure, he peaked too. Does this satisfy you?

Did I forget to add the sarcasm smiley? My apologies. You should look before you dive.

 

[David Yudkin]

I think statistically Brady is doing about the same as he has for any year except 2007. He's generally a Top 10 fantasy QB and remains so today. In real football, Brady is more about winning games and trying to win titles than he is in terms of simply inflating his stats (obviously 07 was the exception).

Without Moss, I still think Brady will be a Bottom 10 fantasy QB and have some big games, but I suspect he will have a couple ho hum outings and/or games in the cold that won't help his numbers.

 

[thehornet]

tom brady is one of the best qb's in football. what's the matter with some of you?

 

[TWP]

I dont think Brady is 'on the decline' at all. I think that he has had two years since his injury which have been more inconsistent than he was prior to his injury. I think he is showing improvement this year over last year (although still too inconsistent for my preferences, of course). So I think it was more like:

- Steep trajectory pre-injury

- Step function down post-injury

- Relatively steep trajectory now

I see him on the incline, just not nearly at the same level he was at in 2007, hence fueling the 'decline' fires. In any case, I'd rather have him on my team than Manning, but I expect Manning to appear more times in the record books. Statistically, Manning will probably end up as the greatest QB of all time. In the HOF, I think Brady will be more prominent, though. Kinda a Montana/Marino type of thing (spare me the obvious differences).

 

[Ghost Rider]

Its reasonable to assume Brady going from 36-38 TDs with Moss to 30-32 without.

I don't think it is. Brady has only thrown 30 touchdowns or more in a season once. Once. In 2007. Aside from his incomplete 2001 season and missing almost all of 2008, he has landed in the 23-28 in every season except for '07 (six times). Given that, it is very reasonable to expect that he will finish in that range once again.

 

[pizzatyme]

I think his center part of his hair will get him to 30 TDs.

I think the loss of Moss will tighten defenses down unless Tate can show to be a consistent deep threat.

He'll be out of the league and walking the runway in 4 years.