Breaking a tie for the playoffs (1 Viewer)

[rockalum]

3 teams tied for 2 wild card spots. 2 of them are in the same division.

team a was 2-1 vs. the other 2.

team b was 1-1.

team c was 1-2.

i say team a gets in. then whoever won between team b and c.

what say you?

 

[kardplayer]

I disagree based on the information you presented. Not B's fault they have one less case.

I'm assuming that A&C are in the same division (since they have 3 games in your scenario).

I would break the tie between A&C first.

Then I would take the winner of that tiebreaker and face them off against B in a tiebreaker for the first spot.

I would then take the two remaining teams and face them off in the tiebreaker for the second spot.

 

[lloyd christmas]

I say most points.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I say most points.

I think this is always a good tie-breaker. The losers can't argue that the better team is missing out.

 

[OU#1]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).

The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

 

[rockalum]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

 

[fasteddie_21]

Settle the tie w/i the division first, then that team that remains matches up in total points vs the out-of-division team. Pretty straight forward and the one that makes the most sense, imo, if you have divisions.

 

[rockalum]

Settle the tie w/i the division first, then that team that remains matches up in total points vs the out-of-division team. Pretty straight forward and the one that makes the most sense, imo, if you have divisions.

if you do that, aren't you giving the two teams in the same division 2 ways to make the playoffs and the other team only 1? does that seem fair?

 

[lloyd christmas]

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

Three team ties make for a mess of head to head tiebreakers, total points is the way to go when this happens. Did team B beat team A? That would be a major issue. Why should B care what happened between A and C, he beat A. You are arguing for a team he beat to make the playoffs, which seems against the 'head to head record' tie breaker. The rules as written make no distinction for how head to head record is to be used when more than 2 teams are tied. Because it isn't clear, move on to the next tiebreaker, which luckily is objective. As far as the interdivision argument goes...this is a wildcard tie breaker right? Which team is in which division should have no impact.

 

[Bri]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

1 knocks out team C2. highest of two remaining5 is backwards BTW. Most points against=hardest schedule

 

[denver90]

Oklahoma

 

[Bronx Bombers]

We break ties like the NFL in my league. Break the tie for the teams within the same Division first. Who ever wins that tie breaker goes against the third team for the first wildcard. Then break the tie between the two remaining teams.

 

[houston]

you only break division ties first if a division title is involved.

if multiple teams are involved in a wild card tie, it makes no difference that teams are from the same division.

i like overall record in games played between the tied teams. yes, 2-1 is better than 1-1.

i don't know why there is such an urge to jump to points as a tiebreaker. why do we play in leagues with weekly head-to-head matchups if we like points so much? points can easily be skewed by one huge week, or one awful week.

 

[renesauz]

I loathe head to head tiebreakers. Bye weeks make the method unfair. The FIRST tiebreaker should always be total points scored on the season, since evrey player (sans the rare mid-season NFL trade) has the same # of byes on the season H2H should be right before coin flips.

I realize your rules aren't written that way, but it's even more ridiculous to use H2H when the teams did NOT play each other the same # of times. Why have H2H in the rules with unbalanced schedules? I think total points is the only fair answer here.

 

[renesauz]

you only break division ties first if a division title is involved.if multiple teams are involved in a wild card tie, it makes no difference that teams are from the same division.i like overall record in games played between the tied teams. yes, 2-1 is better than 1-1.i don't know why there is such an urge to jump to points as a tiebreaker. why do we play in leagues with weekly head-to-head matchups if we like points so much? points can easily be skewed by one huge week, or one awful week.

Or by having 2 studs on a bye when you played one of these teams who was at full strength?Seriously...overall record is the first tiebreak, so the H2H still has significant meaning...it's just not a good first tiebreaker because of byes. If you're going to use it first, you have to at least have the #of games even among the tiebreak participants.

 

[PosterNutBag]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

You definitely need to tell us who beat who with those records you gave us in the first post before we can decide whether or not tiebreaker #1 is conclusive. I don't think 2-1 record wins it without knowing who those wins/losses are against. I could see myself saying that tiebreaker #1 is inconclusive and that total points is what must decide this.Here is the way my league decides this. We also have the same tiebreaker #1, but we have it specifically written in the rules that when 3 or more teams are involved, head to head record only applies if either one team is undefeated against ALL other teams in the tiebreaker .... or .... one team is winless (and actually played) all other teams in the tiebreaker. Outside of either of those things happening, we viewed head to head as inconclusive.Another thing to consider is after you figure out who gets the first wild card spot is how you determine who gets the 2nd spot. In my league, we would do the entire tiebreaker process for the first spot and then start the entire process over for the 2nd spot with the two teams remaining. This differs perhaps from just going to total points and taking the top two of the three. I feel strongly that doing this tiebreaker process for each wild card spot is the way to go since it seems silly to still be considering the team who won the first spot while awarding the 2nd spot.Do us a favor and let us know who beat who for the records you posted in the first post of this thread.

 

[NYRAGE]

I say most points.

That's how we do it. It seems the fairest.

 

[glumpy]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).

The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:

1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied

my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

Ours is written the same way for our #1, and last season we had exactly this same discussion. The argument was that you couldn't have "head to head" among more than two teams. That is accounted for by the wording of this item--and that was the consensus last year as well. When the records between the three (or more) teams are distinct as the ones you mentioned, then your interpretation is correct. We also use the decimal points system suggested here and I highly recommend it.

 

[DrJamesAndrews Fan]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

Team A & B, rules state "record amongst all tied teams" C has the worst record.

 

[PosterNutBag]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).

The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:

1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied

my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

Ours is written the same way for our #1, and last season we had exactly this same discussion. The argument was that you couldn't have "head to head" among more than two teams. That is accounted for by the wording of this item--and that was the consensus last year as well. When the records between the three (or more) teams are distinct as the ones you mentioned, then your interpretation is correct.

I don't see how you can say his interpretation is correct without knowing who beat who. I realize the tiebreaker is worded as H2H record for all teams tied, but it is a reasonable interpretation to say that is inconclusive when you have one team playing more/less games then the other two.For example (since we have no idea who beat who), what if we found out that Team B lost to Team C and beat Team A. We also find out Team A beat Team C twice. There is no way you can tell me it's a fair interpretation to award Team A the first spot over Team B. I think the first spot would absolutely have to come down to the 2nd tiebreaker of total points in this case since H2H amongst all teams is inconclusive. Just my two cents, but I just wanted to point out that this is not as cut and dry as it may have seemed based on your last post.

 

[PosterNutBag]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

Team A & B, rules state "record amongst all tied teams" C has the worst record.

I already addressed my opinion in another post that it is very possible to say that "record amongst tied teams" is inconclusive, but consider this scenario. Say you award the first spot to Team A. Now you have one spot remaining and a two-team tiebreaker between Teams B & C. If C beat B in their only H2H meeting, then the answer could be that Teams A & C get in.IMO, this entire thread really has two issues. The first issue is the one everyone has been posting about. The 2nd issue is how to apply tiebreakers ... do you do it just once for both spots ... or do you do it like the NFL and determine it separately spot by spot. I say starting over from scratch to determine the last spot is the way to go (after you awarded the first spot to break the 3-way tie).

 

[glumpy]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).

The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:

1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied

my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

Ours is written the same way for our #1, and last season we had exactly this same discussion. The argument was that you couldn't have "head to head" among more than two teams. That is accounted for by the wording of this item--and that was the consensus last year as well. When the records between the three (or more) teams are distinct as the ones you mentioned, then your interpretation is correct.

I don't see how you can say his interpretation is correct without knowing who beat who. I realize the tiebreaker is worded as H2H record for all teams tied, but it is a reasonable interpretation to say that is inconclusive when you have one team playing more/less games then the other two.For example (since we have no idea who beat who), what if we found out that Team B lost to Team C and beat Team A. We also find out Team A beat Team C twice. There is no way you can tell me it's a fair interpretation to award Team A the first spot over Team B. I think the first spot would absolutely have to come down to the 2nd tiebreaker of total points in this case since H2H amongst all teams is inconclusive. Just my two cents, but I just wanted to point out that this is not as cut and dry as it may have seemed based on your last post.

That's the whole point of this thread! The problem is that "head to head" implies two teams, while the added "amongst all teams tied" changes the interpretation. It does need to be reworded for upcoming years in support of whichever way the ruling goes. As I said our league had this same issue last year, and in response added the phrase "winning percentage against all tied teams" to clarify the decision.

 

[Twilight]

Thankfully my local league uses Total Points as the tie-breaker. The games are essentially settled, so I just set up the playoffs in 5 minutes. Eliminates 99% of the whining, which is what makes me happiest as a commish.

 

[PosterNutBag]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).

The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:

1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied

my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

Ours is written the same way for our #1, and last season we had exactly this same discussion. The argument was that you couldn't have "head to head" among more than two teams. That is accounted for by the wording of this item--and that was the consensus last year as well. When the records between the three (or more) teams are distinct as the ones you mentioned, then your interpretation is correct.

I don't see how you can say his interpretation is correct without knowing who beat who. I realize the tiebreaker is worded as H2H record for all teams tied, but it is a reasonable interpretation to say that is inconclusive when you have one team playing more/less games then the other two.For example (since we have no idea who beat who), what if we found out that Team B lost to Team C and beat Team A. We also find out Team A beat Team C twice. There is no way you can tell me it's a fair interpretation to award Team A the first spot over Team B. I think the first spot would absolutely have to come down to the 2nd tiebreaker of total points in this case since H2H amongst all teams is inconclusive. Just my two cents, but I just wanted to point out that this is not as cut and dry as it may have seemed based on your last post.

That's the whole point of this thread! The problem is that "head to head" implies two teams, while the added "amongst all teams tied" changes the interpretation. It does need to be reworded for upcoming years in support of whichever way the ruling goes. As I said our league had this same issue last year, and in response added the phrase "winning percentage against all tied teams" to clarify the decision.

I understand the point of the thread. The question is how do we interpret "H2H amongst all teams tied". If A has 2 wins over C, B beat A & C beat B ... then I say tiebreaker #1 is inconclusive. You are saying it's not. I say in my scenario that you can't hold it against Team B that they only played 2 games against A/C. That would be absolutely silly to say that tiebreaker #1 is conclusive when it's not simply b/c the teams didn't play the same amount of games against each other. In my experience, the only way H2H is conclusive with 3 or more teams is only if one team is undefeated against all other teams in the tiebreaker.

 

[belljr]

3 teams tied for 2 wild card spots. 2 of them are in the same division. team a was 2-1 vs. the other 2.team b was 1-1.team c was 1-2.i say team a gets in. then whoever won between team b and c. what say you?

Break the tie between the division teams first. Using h2h, division record and whatever else you use Points most likely.Once you have your tie broken within division, then break for WC.eta: We mimic the actual NFL tie breaking rules here is ours

Division Tiebreaker:2 teams1. H2h2. Division Record3. Points4. Breakdown Record5. Point differntial6. COin Flip3 teams(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format).1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).2. Division Record3. Points4. Breakdown Record5. Point Differential6. Coin FlipWILDCARDTwo clubs1 H2H2. Total Points3. "Mercator" Projection (Winning percentage if team had played every other team every week).4. Point Differential5. Coin FlipThree or More Clubs(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.)1.Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants.2. H2H (applies only if one team beats or losses to all of the other teams).3 Most points scored.4. "Mercator" Projection (Winning percentage if team had played every other team every week).5. Point difference (points scored minus points allowed).6. Coin flip.OTHER TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURES1. Only one club advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied clubs revert to the first step of the applicable division or Wild-Card tie breakers. As an example, if two clubs remain tied in any tie-breaker step after all other clubs have been eliminated, the procedure reverts to step one of the two-club format to determine the winner. When one club wins the tie breaker, all other clubs revert to step 1 of the applicable two-club or three-club format.

 

[Mr.Pack]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

Pretty obvious the only and correct way to rule this is to go to total points scored.When 3 or more are tied in my league I use total points scored for the season.I take this back, your number one tie-breaker is H2H amongst the teams tied. So you have to use that first and it sounds liek there is a pretty clear cut victor.

 

[FlapJacks]

I say get rid of head to head as a tiebreaker.

It's an asinine tiebreaker in Fantasy.

 

[Mr.Pack]

I say get rid of head to head as a tiebreaker.It's an asinine tiebreaker in Fantasy.

I agree, but that doesn't help him here.He asked for help for this season. Not next season.

 

[puckalicious]

I say get rid of head to head as a tiebreaker.It's an asinine tiebreaker in Fantasy.

That is merely your opinion. My opinion is don't play H2H if you don't think it is a valid tiebreak.In a league with divisions, ties must be settled within them first before you can break the tie with a team outside them. If this is not desirable then there is no point in having a division in the first place. Also, a H2H tiebreak among more than 2 teams must have played the same number of games against the tied opponents, otherwise it is not valid.

 

[I am a genius]

I don't care for how the rules are worded personally, but it was the rule when the season started so it's the rule now. You can't go and change it now. Our league uses H2H then pts, but if 3 or more teams are involved then it goes to pts unless there is a sweep (team A beat both team B and C)

So, going by your current rules, it's a messy H2H between 3 teams, doesn't matter who beat who.

Team A 2-1 (.666)

Team B 1-1 (.500)

Team C 1-2 (.333)

I not saying this is the right way to do tiebreakers, but under your current rules this is the fair way.

 

[PosterNutBag]

I take this back, your number one tie-breaker is H2H amongst the teams tied. So you have to use that first and it sounds liek there is a pretty clear cut victor.

How is there a clear cut victor? We have no idea who beat who. If B beat A and lost to C, combined with A sweeping C, then how is H2H conclusive? You certainly can't hold it against B that they played one less game. The original poster needs to tell us who beat who for us to truly decide if H2H is conclusive "amongst all teams." Right now we are comparing apples to oranges and I am thinking that the first tiebreaker ends up being ruled as inconclusive with total points likely deciding the first of the two spots.

 

[PosterNutBag]

I don't care for how the rules are worded personally, but it was the rule when the season started so it's the rule now. You can't go and change it now. Our league uses H2H then pts, but if 3 or more teams are involved then it goes to pts unless there is a sweep (team A beat both team B and C)So, going by your current rules, it's a messy H2H between 3 teams, doesn't matter who beat who.Team A 2-1 (.666)Team B 1-1 (.500)Team C 1-2 (.333)I not saying this is the right way to do tiebreakers, but under your current rules this is the fair way.

How would you decide the two spots? Would your league decide the first wild card slot as a 3-team tiebreaker and award it to one of the 3 teams ... and then after that was done, start the process over to determine the last wild card spot as a 2-team tiebreaker b/w the two remaining teams that did not get the first spot?

 

[Yenrub]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).

The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:

1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied

2. Total points scored

3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams

4. Total Bench Scoring

5. Total points against (lowest to highest)

my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

Does your league have this statement as part of the rules?Only one team advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied teams revert to the first step of the applicable tie-breaker

If so then team A gets the 1st wildcard spot according to your rules

Then you would start over with B vs. C in the tiebreaking process

 

[PosterNutBag]

Does your league have this statement as part of the rules?

Only one team advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied teams revert to the first step of the applicable tie-breaker

If so then team A gets the 1st wildcard spot according to your rules

Then you would start over with B vs. C in the tiebreaking process

Why do you view H2H as conclusive in giving it to A over B? In doing so, you are basically penalizing B for not having a 3rd game played among the teams. That's just silly and unfair to B.Also, if the league does not specify how to award spots, then you could assume it could be either one spot at a time or the two spots in one step. It seems like you are saying that the only way it could be one tiebreaking step at a time is if the rules explicitly say it. To me, it is open to interpretation of the league does not specify it either way. I think doing it one spot at a time makes the most sense since in addition to award playoff spots, you also have to seed the teams. So, if this were a league with 6 playoff teams and we are talking about the 5/6 seeds here then you first determine the 5 seed and next determine the 6 seed among the two teams that aren't already in the playoffs as the 1-5 seeds. That just seems the fairest way to me unless the league explicitly says one way over the other in the rules and I think this is closer to the way the NFL would do things.

 

[hove]

Whatever you do, don't use these rules... Just Plain Awful Tie-Breaking Rules

Total failure.

 

[Refbuz]

Settle the tie w/i the division first, then that team that remains matches up in total points vs the out-of-division team. Pretty straight forward and the one that makes the most sense, imo, if you have divisions.

if you do that, aren't you giving the two teams in the same division 2 ways to make the playoffs and the other team only 1? does that seem fair?

How do you figure? The team that is not in the division has one less tie breaker step to go through. and they are not completely eliminated if there are multiple berths available. For wild card berths, the NFL will break a division tie first and that is the formula that I always used. Break the tie in the division 1st, then go to the conference. How does a team that finished 3rd in a division making the playoffs over the team that finished 2nd make any sense?Why bother playing in divisions if you are just lumping everyone else together after the division winners?

 

[Yenrub]

Does your league have this statement as part of the rules?

Only one team advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied teams revert to the first step of the applicable tie-breaker

If so then team A gets the 1st wildcard spot according to your rules

Then you would start over with B vs. C in the tiebreaking process

Why do you view H2H as conclusive in giving it to A over B? In doing so, you are basically penalizing B for not having a 3rd game played among the teams. That's just silly and unfair to B.Also, if the league does not specify how to award spots, then you could assume it could be either one spot at a time or the two spots in one step. It seems like you are saying that the only way it could be one tiebreaking step at a time is if the rules explicitly say it. To me, it is open to interpretation of the league does not specify it either way. I think doing it one spot at a time makes the most sense since in addition to award playoff spots, you also have to seed the teams. So, if this were a league with 6 playoff teams and we are talking about the 5/6 seeds here then you first determine the 5 seed and next determine the 6 seed among the two teams that aren't already in the playoffs as the 1-5 seeds. That just seems the fairest way to me unless the league explicitly says one way over the other in the rules and I think this is closer to the way the NFL would do things.

I agree that it may not be fair but their rule says"Head to head record amongst all teams tied"

My league rule says

"head to head sweep (applicable only if one team has defeated each of the others or if a team has loss to the others)"

then

most points for the season

 

[PosterNutBag]

Does your league have this statement as part of the rules?

Only one team advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied teams revert to the first step of the applicable tie-breaker

If so then team A gets the 1st wildcard spot according to your rules

Then you would start over with B vs. C in the tiebreaking process

Why do you view H2H as conclusive in giving it to A over B? In doing so, you are basically penalizing B for not having a 3rd game played among the teams. That's just silly and unfair to B.Also, if the league does not specify how to award spots, then you could assume it could be either one spot at a time or the two spots in one step. It seems like you are saying that the only way it could be one tiebreaking step at a time is if the rules explicitly say it. To me, it is open to interpretation of the league does not specify it either way. I think doing it one spot at a time makes the most sense since in addition to award playoff spots, you also have to seed the teams. So, if this were a league with 6 playoff teams and we are talking about the 5/6 seeds here then you first determine the 5 seed and next determine the 6 seed among the two teams that aren't already in the playoffs as the 1-5 seeds. That just seems the fairest way to me unless the league explicitly says one way over the other in the rules and I think this is closer to the way the NFL would do things.

I agree that it may not be fair but their rule says"Head to head record amongst all teams tied"

My league rule says

"head to head sweep (applicable only if one team has defeated each of the others or if a team has loss to the others)"

then

most points for the season

It looks like we both read their rule correctly, but you are interpreting it as "choose the best winning percentage" while I am interpreting it as "look at the head to head records amongst all teams tied and see if one of the teams has conclusively proven their superiority over the other two simply based on H2H regular season results." In my case, I say that H2H among these teams is inconclusive.So, my point here is that I think the way this guy's league rule is written is so vague (it doesn't tell you exactly how to enforce it) that it could reasonably be viewed to be interpreting it exactly how your league has written the rule.

 

[MOAT]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

Team A & B, rules state "record amongst all tied teams" C has the worst record.

I agree that your rules dictate that A & B should get the 2 spots.

 

[GregR_2]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

I agree with your interpretation.If it was the NFL Wildcard, they would break the tie between the division teams first. However, your rule states it is the head to head record "amongst all teams tied". Using the NFL's method of H2H only amongst teams in a division first would not be using H2H "amongst all tied teams", so I don't think the rules support the NFL's method.So it should go as follows:1st Wildcard: Tiebreak between teams A, B and C. A has the best record with 2-1, and gets the Wildcard.2nd Wildcard: Tiebreak between teams B and C. You need to determine the record of these two teams vs each other in head to head. Team A is not involved in this tiebreak, so the H2H records need to be for B vs C only.

 

[PosterNutBag]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

I agree with your interpretation.If it was the NFL Wildcard, they would break the tie between the division teams first. However, your rule states it is the head to head record "amongst all teams tied". Using the NFL's method of H2H only amongst teams in a division first would not be using H2H "amongst all tied teams", so I don't think the rules support the NFL's method.So it should go as follows:1st Wildcard: Tiebreak between teams A, B and C. A has the best record with 2-1, and gets the Wildcard.2nd Wildcard: Tiebreak between teams B and C. You need to determine the record of these two teams vs each other in head to head. Team A is not involved in this tiebreak, so the H2H records need to be for B vs C only.

I like how you view this as a two-step process in that you decide the 2nd WC from scratch in a completely new step once the 1st WC has been decided, but tell me how you can say that A gets the 1st WC over B if, for example, B beat A. How can you hold it against B that they played one less game than the other 2 teams? I just don't see how the 1st WC doesn't get decided on Total Pts after if it determined that the H2H "amongst all tied teams" is inconclusive.

 

[GoRaiders]

HTH first, but with the records you show, it seems you have to go with the next best which is total pts. You can't look at HTH record in total, but rather team-to-team. If A beat C 2x, but lost to B, A has HTH over C but not B. If B beat A but lost to C, B has HTH over A but not C. If C lost to A 2x, but beat B, then C has HTH over B but not A. This is a circular problem, so you have to move to total pts scored.

 

[The Future Champs]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

You can't really ask people what they would do, and use any input on what other leagues do. Your rules are what they are. Period. And it seems pretty clear in your rules. Your league rules tie-breaking order has "head to head record amongst all teams tied" first. And you can compare records even if they don't have the same number of games played. Team A is .667, Team B is .500, and Team C is .333. A&B get in. If there isn't any verbage about numbers of games in the rules, then you shouldn't read that into the interpretation of them. And clear that rule up for next year in the off-season.

 

[puckalicious]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied2. Total points scored3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams4. Total Bench Scoring5. Total points against (lowest to highest)my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

You can't really ask people what they would do, and use any input on what other leagues do. Your rules are what they are. Period. And it seems pretty clear in your rules. Your league rules tie-breaking order has "head to head record amongst all teams tied" first. And you can compare records even if they don't have the same number of games played. Team A is .667, Team B is .500, and Team C is .333. A&B get in. If there isn't any verbage about numbers of games in the rules, then you shouldn't read that into the interpretation of them. And clear that rule up for next year in the off-season.

You are adding in a step comparing win%. Nowhere in the rules does it say to use win%. H2H record is not the same, and can only be used when the tied teams all played each other the same number of times. So in this case, total points must be used.I completely disagree with the rules stated, the ties within division should be settled first otherwise there is no point in having separate divisions.So for this season, use total points. Next season, change the rules!!!

 

[Yenrub]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).

The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:

1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied

2. Total points scored

3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams

4. Total Bench Scoring

5. Total points against (lowest to highest)

my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

You can't really ask people what they would do, and use any input on what other leagues do. Your rules are what they are. Period. And it seems pretty clear in your rules. Your league rules tie-breaking order has "head to head record amongst all teams tied" first. And you can compare records even if they don't have the same number of games played. Team A is .667, Team B is .500, and Team C is .333. A&B get in. If there isn't any verbage about numbers of games in the rules, then you shouldn't read that into the interpretation of them. And clear that rule up for next year in the off-season.

You are adding in a step comparing win%. Nowhere in the rules does it say to use win%. H2H record is not the same, and can only be used when the tied teams all played each other the same number of times. So in this case, total points must be used.I completely disagree with the rules stated, the ties within division should be settled first otherwise there is no point in having separate divisions.

So for this season, use total points. Next season, change the rules!!!

I don't see that in the rules provided to us by the OPThe rules simply state 'Head to head record amongst all teams tied'

Well the head to head record of the 3 tied teams are;

A = 2-1

B = 1-1

C = 1-2

 

[daveandken]

Interesting question. What are the total points scored for each team? And who did each team lose to in HTH?

 

[DrJamesAndrews Fan]

We used the same exact rules and have 3 teams vying for 2 spots.

Ours went like this -

Team A beat team B & team C 2x's (3-0)

Team B beat team C & lost to team A (1-1)

Team C lost to team A 2x's and team A (0-3)

It was an easy decision and no one disputed. Team A & B moving on.

 

[ChromeWeasel]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).

The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:

1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied

my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

Ours is written the same way for our #1, and last season we had exactly this same discussion. The argument was that you couldn't have "head to head" among more than two teams. That is accounted for by the wording of this item--and that was the consensus last year as well. When the records between the three (or more) teams are distinct as the ones you mentioned, then your interpretation is correct.

I don't see how you can say his interpretation is correct without knowing who beat who. I realize the tiebreaker is worded as H2H record for all teams tied, but it is a reasonable interpretation to say that is inconclusive when you have one team playing more/less games then the other two.For example (since we have no idea who beat who), what if we found out that Team B lost to Team C and beat Team A. We also find out Team A beat Team C twice. There is no way you can tell me it's a fair interpretation to award Team A the first spot over Team B. I think the first spot would absolutely have to come down to the 2nd tiebreaker of total points in this case since H2H amongst all teams is inconclusive. Just my two cents, but I just wanted to point out that this is not as cut and dry as it may have seemed based on your last post.

This was the best post of the thread. The rules don't actually say that winning percentage would be used. They are, in fact, very poorly thought out. Hope you guys change this to straight-up points for next year.

 

[PosterNutBag]

My league goes by record then total points scored as a tiebreaker. Using a decimal system there's no way in hell there's going to be a tie in total points. .1/RuRecYd and .04/.05 PaYd usually takes care of any ties (including weekly scoring ties).

The owners in your league are going to have issue with whatever method you choose because this should have been discussed and laid out BEFORE the season began. It's called league rules or a constitution...

here is how the rule is written:If 2 or more teams from different divisions are tied for a wildcard spot the following Tie-breaker will be used:

1. Head to head record amongst all teams tied

2. Total points scored

3. Head to head record amongst all playoff teams

4. Total Bench Scoring

5. Total points against (lowest to highest)

my problem is, what does that mean to you? i interpret it as i said in my OP. but i have a feeling the commish will overrule me.

You can't really ask people what they would do, and use any input on what other leagues do. Your rules are what they are. Period. And it seems pretty clear in your rules. Your league rules tie-breaking order has "head to head record amongst all teams tied" first. And you can compare records even if they don't have the same number of games played. Team A is .667, Team B is .500, and Team C is .333. A&B get in. If there isn't any verbage about numbers of games in the rules, then you shouldn't read that into the interpretation of them. And clear that rule up for next year in the off-season.

You are adding in a step comparing win%. Nowhere in the rules does it say to use win%. H2H record is not the same, and can only be used when the tied teams all played each other the same number of times. So in this case, total points must be used.I completely disagree with the rules stated, the ties within division should be settled first otherwise there is no point in having separate divisions.

So for this season, use total points. Next season, change the rules!!!

I don't see that in the rules provided to us by the OPThe rules simply state 'Head to head record amongst all teams tied'

Well the head to head record of the 3 tied teams are;

A = 2-1

B = 1-1

C = 1-2

I agree that the rules provided in the OP do not say that "can only be used when the tied teams all played each other the same number of times", but like puckalicious says it doesn't say to use win% either. All it says is "Head to head record amongst all teams tied," which leaves something up to interpretation. I agree with puckalicious here that unless there is additional clarification in the league rules, it is most reasonable to conclude that the H2H step of the league's tiebreaker procedures are indeed inconclusive and it's the most reasonable interpretation to move onto step 2 and use total points as the ultimate tiebreaker for deciding the first WC spot. So, you are doing H2H first, but it is inconclusive.Anyone not agreeing with what I just said obviously thinks that the most reasonable interpretation is to use win% and potentially screw over Team B simply b/c Team B doesn't have a 3rd game played. That's just unfair, especially if B beat A.

 

[PosterNutBag]

We used the same exact rules and have 3 teams vying for 2 spots.

Ours went like this -

Team A beat team B & team C 2x's (3-0)

Team B beat team C & lost to team A (1-1)

Team C lost to team A 2x's and team B (0-3)

It was an easy decision and no one disputed. Team A & B moving on.

This is very different than what was state in the OP. In this scenario, things are very cut and clear, so I can see how nobody disputed it (there was nothing to debate in your case). Team A gets the first spot since it is undefeated H2H over the other two teams. Team B gets the 2nd spot in the two-team tiebreaker with Team C since it beat Team C H2H. Your league was lucky it was so cut and dry. You should use some of the thoughts in this thread to refine your rules for next year in case the above situation is just like the example in the OP.