PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
Ease up Bracie. I didn't say it irritated me. I was just saying it really shouldn't even be a point of debate given how much success TEs have had in the past with Chud, one of which Browns fans should remember well.
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Browns hire Rob Chudzinski as new HC (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Bracie Smathers
- Start date
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
Maybe, but if I'm laying money I'm going with Travis Benjamin.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Chose to just ignore my post the last time you brought this up about lucks ypa being the highest in the league and weeden below average i see.
MAC_32
Footballguy
In both college and the nfl the longer weeden holds onto the ball the worse the result. He thrived when in shotgun making quick reads.to my knowledge, the only thing weeden can do well is throw deep. if not, what would you say it the ideal system for him?'MAC_32 said:Accuracy and 5-7 step dropbacks are not good things for Weeden.'flc735 said:'Bracie Smathers said:sonds like norv is good for trent, gordon and weeden
bad for cameron/watson
and really bad for little
beer 302
Footballguy
You do not, liar liar!!!
pantherclub
Footballguy
lol wut?
zilladog
Footballguy
Of all the coaching candidates out there, this was by far the best hire the browns could've made. It's like they spent the last 2 years building personnel specifically suited to Chud's and Norv's strengths. Weeden actually has upside now. And Gordon? Stock is way way up in the Braylon Edwards role. A power run game is perfectly suited for TRich and add Norv into the mix and its hard not to put him in the running for rushing leader next year. Chud's has a good reputation around the nfl. I'm excited to see what he can do. By The way, everyone around here I talking like Norv is already the OC. Is that true? Has he officially been hired?
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Seems like the sentiment on here, where we are all very knowledgeable football guys, is that people are happy to see him go.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
In fairness I ignore everything you say about Weeden.
beer 302
Footballguy
Yea, um this. No one I know down here is losing sleep over losing Chudz. Matter of fact, lot of folks think Norv is coming here.
nxmehta
Footballguy
nxmehta
Footballguy
Most Browns fans are in "wait and see" mode with the hire; you're in the group jumping off the 480 bridge. I don't know what constitutes denial here.Let's all take a deep breath and just hope this works out. Clearly there are lots of strengths and weaknesses to this hire.
kurtrudder
Footballguy
'Bracie Smathers]SD struggled this past season? Was it because Norv Turner forgot to coach or could the injuries to Mathews and Vincent Brown and Antonio Gates or the continuing struggles of Phil Rivers and the fact that San Diego lost Vincent Jackson and no-one really stepped up have anything to do with it? Nah said:
NJDawgPound
Footballguy
This stood out for me from Jimmy Haslam. He pointed out that the Panthers scored 88 touchdowns to Cleveland's 48 the last two seasons. Granted, the personnel is different. 20 more TDs this year, and this team is still playing.
I love the delusional Browns fans. Yeah right the Browns would be still playing this weekend. You really believe that the Browns would be one of the top 8 teams left playing in the league? It is the same every off season.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Shorter drops means quicker throws so if a guy is in a WCO with 3 and 5 step drops he's quickly pulling the trigger.If he doesn't see what he wants, basically he wants the WR to break free of the DB or isn't quick to run thru his reads to terciary receivers he holds onto the ball.Routes that require 5 to 7 step drops typically DO NOT have a high degree of accuracy because they take longer to develop but the QB will typically be throwing to a spot, meaning he's not making multiple reads he's dropping back and letting it fly EVEN BEFORE the WR makes his break. Basically in this system it is a big strong armed QB dropping back and letting it fly DEEP and allowing the WR to make a play.Brandon Weeden and Josh Gordon are tailor made for this system as is Trent Richardson because it is essential to have a go-to stud RB to set up the deep throws. If the defense cheats, as it did MANY TIMES last year defending T-Rich by bringing up 8 or even 9 in the box because we were rarely going to 7 step drops during games and sometimes never tried going over the top is certain games unless we fell way behind and then it was feeding time at the zoo for pass rushers. If you only go deep when you are behind on low-percentage throws it is disaster and that is what we saw in Denver because Denver has Dumervil and Von Miller, two of the best edge pass rusher in the game who take the edge with power and speed at angles that nail deep drops.Reguardless of what you think Brandon Weeden is not a zone-read-option QB, he's not a WCO QB, he is a verticle-stretch QB. This system is his best fit without question. It fits Josh Gordon to a T. Our offensive line is a faaaaaaaaaar better fit for this sort of system than anything since their forte is pass protection and they would have gotten burned out in the Chip Kelly zone-read-option and we'd probably need two new starting guards, definitely would need to replace Lavauo because he wouldn't fit that system.I don't know what you want kid.Tell us. Go ahead.I doubt you have a clear idea of what you would like but if you do that capacity then make your case.I never considered Chud but have done the homework and it isn't my opinion but the opninion of many NFL talking heads that he's a valid candidate and has earned this opportunity. He's from the Northern Ohio area, he grew up a Browns fan. He isn't some retread or a guy like Chip Kelly who isn't serious. Don't tell us what you don't want. If you can, and I honestly doubt you can, tell us what you want.In both college and the nfl the longer weeden holds onto the ball the worse the result. He thrived when in shotgun making quick reads.to my knowledge, the only thing weeden can do well is throw deep. if not, what would you say it the ideal system for him?'MAC_32 said:Accuracy and 5-7 step dropbacks are not good things for Weeden.'flc735 said:
Tackling Dummies
Footballguy
Saints and Bucs twice might skew the totals, huh?
MAC_32
Footballguy
Well, the only system weeden has been successful in is a shotgun quick read offense, so if we are going to use him that's the only fit i see. Given his weaknesses i don't see him being successful in anything else, so naturally I am going to be negative about any move made that has him under center. Not even sure he could be successful in that but I would give him more rope. After what you all saw this year it blows me away people are still optimistic about his prospects. He is what you saw.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Weeden was successful in college where he lined up five yards behind center and simply threw the ball as soon as he caught it. He wasn't making multiple reads, he already was five steps deep, he never took the handoff under center, never had to turn his back on the D, and he never had a playbook because it was free flowing street football.Could that system work in the NFL. Well it means the offensive line wouldn't be taxed much at all in terms of pass protection and the Browns O-line ranked top-3, top-5? In pass-pro last year? Ahh who cares about what five guys do best go all shot-gun all the time. Then in college did Weeden have a RB like Trent Richardson who should be fed 20 carries a game and have a couple of pass attempts per game? Because in Weeden's college system the QB is typically ran empty sets, meaning NO RB was even on the field. So take away the best aspect of the O-Line and significantly minimize T-Rich's impact.A shot gun offense runs stacked sets, meaning mutilpe WRs on one side of the field and right now we have G-Little who actually has stepped up and Gordon is coming along but we utterly lack a third wide-out let alone a fourth that you need for that sort of system.I do like the idea of mixing it up and catching the defense with its pants down and making them burn a time out or gassing them by quickly getting into that sort of matchup when they have the wrong defensive personnel on the field but honestly, you can't run that sort of offense in the NFL as a staple especially on a team like the Browns that actually has some very strong pieces already in place, strong pass protecting offensive line and a guy like Trent Richardson who you can build a power running game around. I luv the idea of catching the D off-guard with an up-tempo shotgun but if we ran that it means robbing the best aspects of the offense and trying to put out three-four WRs that we simply lack at this time.The WCO that we ran last year was a variation of that but Weeden lined up behind center, basically a quick drop ball control offense and in that shot gun attack Weeden was running a quick toss ball control offense.The biggest questions I had about Weeden last year were whether or not he'd fail just taking the snap under center and if he'd adjust in the pocket and step up to buy time. He passed both of those tests for me last year. He isn't a WCO QB IMHO. He does have issues related to getting the ball out QUICKLY after he makes his drop. In a WCO the WRs are running a lot of horizontal routes and it seemed to me that is one area that Weeden struggled with, trying to pull the trigger on those short horizontal routes. He looked his best on those deep drops where he'd step up into the throw and let it rip where the WR was running a VERTICLE route deep. Weeden's job was simple. Take snap under center, typically do a play-action to make the safety hesitate or take a false step and then make one simple read on the safety and adjust to pressure and step up into the throw and allow the WR to make the play.Both Gordon and Little have big bodies and can adjust to throws. Gordon is great going over the top. Little is actually great in the inter-mediate routes. Travis Benjamin has the speed to rip the top off any defense.Power running sets up the deep passing. Plain and simple and it does fit the best aspects of the Browns offensive personnel. I do like the idea of going up-tempo shot gun as a change up but we do need at least one other WR to effectively run that style of offense.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Fair question.Initial reports when Chud was hired was that he was expected to bring in Norv Turner as his OC.Turner was a HC the last few years and Chud worked under him in SD. In the initial reports they also mentioned that Chud wasn't only bringing in Norv but also was rumored to bring in Norv's son in some capacity. Seemed like an enticement by Chud and Chud had a working relationship with Norv, they both run a similiar offense. Seems logical and a good fit but Norv is 60 and he hasn't been only an OC for awhile. When a new HC doesn't immediately announce his staff during NFL playoff time, it typically means he's waiting for someone or the guys he wants to hire are waiting for the other NFL head coaching jobs to fill to see if they have other jobs waiting. The only coaches who have the sort of juice to play teams off of each other for larger contracts are guys like Norv Turner so its possible he's doing that or feels he has another job lined up or that he just needs time.Right now, no he's not already signed.
JamesTheScot
Footballguy
No, I don't think injuries to the skill positions fully explains the decline, at least not in a way that defends Turner. I fail to see how the loss of Vincent Jackson hampered the Chargers in 2012 when it didn't in 2010. Not to mention that we've sat around since 2007 waiting for Jackson to explode in this offense and the best we've gotten is a 68/1167/9 stat line from him. Not bad, but not exactly killer considering the lofty expectations in this stretch offense.Vincent Brown showed some promise, but let's not act like he had established himself as a marquee WR (or even a top rookie prospect) that was expected to catch 100 balls or 1300 yards this season. Acting like he is an irreplaceable talent at this point is a bit off in my book. A 19/329/2 stat line in 14 games as rookie doesn't translate into a critical linchpin of the passing game for year 2.And apparently SD is wondering if Matthews just isn't that good. And if that is the case, then his absence couldn't be as big a factor by definition. Injury to mediocre backs don't hurt as much as does an injury to an elite back. But if he is really good, doesn't that mean that we should have seen more out of him when he is occasionally healthy? That's one that cuts both ways. Kinda like with Vincent Jackson, we've been waiting for him to explode, and he hasn't quite lived up to those expectations. So are we expecting too much of him, or are we expecting too much of this offense? Norv's first season in San Diego coincided with the decline of Tomlinson from his high water mark in 2006. To be fair, it's hard to say whether it was scheme or age. But Tomlinson declined ever year under Turner in both rushing and receiving yards from 2007 through 2009 and his best year was the year before Turner arrived. In fairness, his second best year was in Turner's first year.Rivers was off in 2012 (and 2011). I have to suspect it's an arm issue, but who knows? Maybe now the season is over and Norv won't have to strategically protect that information, it may come out. But Rivers was good enough to post great numbers in the recent past and now doesn't.Gates is not ever going to be the same, IMHO. And I think that's a loss. But having an all-world talent at TE shouldn't be the key to this offense. If this offense was so dependent on Gates to be at his best, isn't that actually a ***** in the armor? Norv has to have unique, elite talent at multiple positions to avoid having a bottom quarter offense? If that's the case, how does that bode in Cleveland when Watson v.2013 can't be anything like what Gates was in his prime? (I think the play is Cameron, BTW, not Watson.)I agree that the Brown's o-line should be better at running the ball than was San Diego last year. But asking them to protect Weeden taking a 7 step drop from under center is an unknown. That's the sort of thing that exposes o-lines. Short drops protect o-lines. Assuming that success with short drop backs will translate into equal success with deep drop backs is risky. I didn't say I hated the hires, I said it struck me as "meh". Turner had a good run in San Diego...with an elite TE and RB. And his QB picked up the slack when the RB dropped off. But both Gates and Tomlinson were established elites before Norv came to town. Am I going to be excited about a guy that apparently needs to have elite talent to keep from being in the bottom quarter in offense? Where's the elite talent on Cleveland's roster? I think Richardson probably qualifies, but beyond that? It sounds like many are expecting Turner to make Weedon/Gordon and Watson elite, when it may actually be the other way around. It may be that Turner needs elite talent to put a good product on the field.And what about Chud and Cam Newton? What about the seeming inability to muster a run game despite having two very good backs on the roster?There are serious questions here. I could see it working well or being another 2 year stint. That's why I say "meh".
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
James, since you made a detailed post to explain your position I won't gloss over your response but I will state up front that we disagree on Norv Turner's abilities as an offensive coordinator but I to your specific points.- I fail to see how the loss of Vincent Jackson hampered the Chargers in 2012 when it didn't in 2010. Not to mention that we've sat around since 2007 waiting for Jackson to explode in this offense and the best we've gotten is a 68/1167/9 stat line from him. Not bad, but not exactly killer considering the lofty expectations in this stretch offense.'JamesTheScot said:
His loss had to be overcome in 2010 and the Bolts went to which player to fill those key missing receptions?
RB Darren Sproles, yet ANOTHER missing piece on last year's roster. So they NOT ONLY were missing WR Vincent Jackson, a player who had three one-thousand yard receiving seasons the last four years he was with the Bolts and the one year was the 2010 season when he got injured and SD didn't have anyone at WR to fill his shoes. They did have TE Antonio Gates who was on the decline but still viable that year who had the second most receptions (50 for 782 yards and 10 TDs) to RB Darren Sproles (59 for 520 and 2 TDs) Hardly what any NFL OC would want if they were trying to have the #1 offense in the NFL wouldn't you say? Not the sort of response you wanted but your point works against your attack on Norv Turner and the sort of offensive coordinator job he did that year.
- Vincent Brown showed some promise, but let's not act like he had established himself as a marquee WR (or even a top rookie prospect) that was expected to catch 100 balls or 1300 yards this season. Acting like he is an irreplaceable talent at this point is a bit off in my book. A 19/329/2 stat line in 14 games as rookie doesn't translate into a critical linchpin of the passing game for year 2.
Question. Why on earth did the Bolts let Vincent Jackson AND Darren Sproles walk if they weren't counting on WR Vincent Brown? Who WERE they counting on then? Malcolm Floyd? Antonio Gates???????? I mean how on earth can you deride Vincent Brown and then expect Norv Turner to put Antonio Gates into a time machine and overcome the loss of both Darren Sproles AND Vincent Jackson? If you discount the talent of Vincent Brown then tell me what talent did Norv Turner have to work with?
- And apparently SD is wondering if Matthews just isn't that good. And if that is the case, then his absence couldn't be as big a factor by definition. Injury to mediocre backs don't hurt as much as does an injury to an elite back. But if he is really good, doesn't that mean that we should have seen more out of him when he is occasionally healthy? That's one that cuts both ways. Kinda like with Vincent Jackson, we've been waiting for him to explode, and he hasn't quite lived up to those expectations. So are we expecting too much of him, or are we expecting too much of this offense? Norv's first season in San Diego coincided with the decline of Tomlinson from his high water mark in 2006. To be fair, it's hard to say whether it was scheme or age. But Tomlinson declined ever year under Turner in both rushing and receiving yards from 2007 through 2009 and his best year was the year before Turner arrived. In fairness, his second best year was in Turner's first year.
Um, you are all over the place in trying to have it both ways where if Mathews is good, its all him and if he's injured its all Norv. Once YOU figure out how you want to spin an injury to a starting RB or create some sort of case for a waiver wire RB like Ronnie Brown or some slub like Jackie Battle. I mean honestly, HONESTLY HOW CAN YOU BLAME NORV for anything THAT sort, sic, 'talent' produced? You can't make any sort of case to attack Norv Turner for the lack of RB talent that he had to work with.
- Rivers was off in 2012 (and 2011). I have to suspect it's an arm issue, but who knows? Maybe now the season is over and Norv won't have to strategically protect that information, it may come out. But Rivers was good enough to post great numbers in the recent past and now doesn't.
AGREED! If Phil Rivers has an arm issue how can you blame Norv Turner?
- Gates is not ever going to be the same, IMHO. And I think that's a loss. But having an all-world talent at TE shouldn't be the key to this offense. If this offense was so dependent on Gates to be at his best, isn't that actually a ***** in the armor? Norv has to have unique, elite talent at multiple positions to avoid having a bottom quarter offense? If that's the case, how does that bode in Cleveland when Watson v.2013 can't be anything like what Gates was in his prime? (I think the play is Cameron, BTW, not Watson.)
AGREED! Gates is on his last legs. A ***** in the armor of whom? The HC or the GM?????????????? Hmmmmmmmmm I'm thinking that the guy responsible for the talent on the team holds the blame and that responsibility is solely on the general manager NOT the head coach.
Watson won't ever be anything like what Gates or Kellen Winslow junior OR senior were in their primes. I stated I'd take Ben Watson today over Antonio Gates TODAY and I would. In any case Watson is a FA and his status is up in the air but the TE was utilized in Cleveland and I'd even take a gamble on the unproven upside of TE Cameron Jordon over whatever Gates has left in the tank. My opinion and I'm not trying to be difficult, its my honest opinion.
- I agree that the Brown's o-line should be better at running the ball than was San Diego last year. But asking them to protect Weeden taking a 7 step drop from under center is an unknown. That's the sort of thing that exposes o-lines. Short drops protect o-lines. Assuming that success with short drop backs will translate into equal success with deep drop backs is risky.
If you question that without any sort of direct knowledge then do the homework or not but here is a snyapsis of the Browns offensive line.
The Browns are 'stacked' on the edges with the best OLT in the NFL in Joe Thomas and rookie Mitchell Schwartz who graded as the TOP RT in the NFL according to PFF grades over the final month of the season where they claimed he consistently got better as the season progressed. He's already a stud at RT. C Alex Mack has ALREADY been to the Pro Bowl and IS one of the best centers in the National Football League. OG Jason Pinkston was the best run blocking player on the team at the end of 2011 and great things were expected of him this season but he struggled and everyone was puzzled until he was rushed to the hospital with life threatening blot clots were discovered on his lungs. Report came out only a few days ago, he's 100% healthy and ready to go next year. He was replaced by OG Jon Grecco and Grecco did a capable job and should adds solid depth with experience. The other guard is Shawn Lavauo and I didn't like him but this past year he did improve and he is a huge OG with strength and is more of a power guard. He can't get out in space but he can maul in the power run game. The AFCN has some of the biggest/strongest and most talented interior defensive lineman in the league starting with Cincinatti's Geno Atkins and going over to Baltimore you have Haloti Ngata and Pittsburgh has the immovable Casey Hampton so a guy like Lavauo along with Jason Pinktson are recquired or you get crushed up front. That is the starters but I also love a rookie from last year, OT Ryan Miller.
Bottom line, the Browns have the best offensive line in the league, not just best right now, they are all young and outside of Joe Thomas and Alex Mack none of the others have reached their prime. They are already one of the best pass protecting lines in the league so I couldn't disagree more with you in questioning if they can protect on 5 and 7 step drops.
- I didn't say I hated the hires, I said it struck me as "meh". Turner had a good run in San Diego...with an elite TE and RB. And his QB picked up the slack when the RB dropped off. But both Gates and Tomlinson were established elites before Norv came to town. Am I going to be excited about a guy that apparently needs to have elite talent to keep from being in the bottom quarter in offense? Where's the elite talent on Cleveland's roster? I think Richardson probably qualifies, but beyond that? It sounds like many are expecting Turner to make Weedon/Gordon and Watson elite, when it may actually be the other way around. It may be that Turner needs elite talent to put a good product on the field.
A coach can only coach the players he has to work with. Norv didn't have any elite WRs when Phil Rivers threw for over 4,700 yards and 30 TDs when he coached that club to the #1 offense in the league in 2010.
- And what about Chud and Cam Newton? What about the seeming inability to muster a run game despite having two very good backs on the roster?
Hmnn. Cam Newton came into the league and in his first two games threw for over 400 yards. NEVER happened in the history of the NFL and I don't know off the top of my head if any veteran QB ever has thrown for over 400 yards in back-to-back games let alone a rookie in his first two games. Also Cam came into the league with serious questions hanging over his head concerning his work ethic. After working with Chudzinski he turned into a hard worker and no one questions his work ethic. They do question his maturity and with good reason but Cam Newton's maturity is his issue, its no coaching failure by Chudzinski. Chud has to get a lot of credit for the work he did with Newton. Also this past year Chud completely revamped and transformed Newton into more of a pocket passer when defenses started to shut down the things he did in his rookie season that made him successful. Lots of people around the league saw what he did with Newton and noted his coaching abilities. They said they hated going up against Chud because he hit them where they least expected.
The Lina run game? Stewart has had injury problems his entire career and he was injured last year. I don't know what happened with DeAngelo Williams but the Pantherscred TWENTY ONE RUSHING TOUCHDOWNS last year. One thing Chud said in his press conference was he wanted to be a 'BALANCED' offense but he clarified that statement by saying that a 'balanced offense' doesn't mean you run 50% of the time and pass 50% of the time. He said it means WHEN YOU HAVE TO RUN you do so effectively. ANY NFL TEAM that scores TWENTY ONE RUSHING TOUCHDOWNS runs effectively WHEN IT HAS TO.
- There are serious questions here. I could see it working well or being another 2 year stint. That's why I say "meh".
You have your opinion and I respect anyone to hold an opinion that I don't agree with.
I love the hire of Rob Chudzinski as the Cleveland Browns head coach even if he doesn't bring in Norv Turner but if he does then I wholeheartedly approve of that hire for OC.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Thanks for the very well thought out post but draw your breaks a bit mon. I agree the Browns offensive line is a high quality group. If the RT continues to improve this could be a top 5 unit but it is a bit early to say they are the best in the league. There are some very high quality groups around the league that may be better. There is also FA and the draft ahead.I think the Browns line is one of the better groups in the league but I would not say they are the best, SF has a very good line across the board and the Bucs are very good as well with some great pieces coming back from injury this year.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Well, its my opinion and the primary reason I'm so high on the offensive line is OG Jason Pinkston who is 100% healthy and adds, size, strength, youth, to a big-strong-talented young offensive line.My opinion is its the overall best offensive line in the NFL and since it is soo young they should only get better and I can't wait to see Pinkston back blocking for T-Rich.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The FBGs, Cecil and Sigmond most recent podcast has them going over the recent class of NFL coaching hires and they weren't just complimentary of the Browns hiring of Rob Chudzinski and Norv Turner but they also were very complimentary of the hire of Mike Lombardi as GM and they said if we got Ray Horton as DC as they were hearing that we didn't hit a home run but we hit a grand slam of putting the right people in place.
You gotta hear this if you haven't.
My link
Footballguys Podcast@TheAudible
let's talk 2013 Coaching Carousel @cecillammey @SigmundBloom discuss the 8 new HCs in the #NFL http://podcast.footballguys.com/2013/Footballguys-Audible-2013-Vol7a.mp3 …
Retweeted by Cecil Lammey
You gotta hear this if you haven't.
My link
Footballguys Podcast@TheAudible
let's talk 2013 Coaching Carousel @cecillammey @SigmundBloom discuss the 8 new HCs in the #NFL http://podcast.footballguys.com/2013/Footballguys-Audible-2013-Vol7a.mp3 …
Retweeted by Cecil Lammey
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Completely forgot to add that Rob Chudzinski hired:
- Norv Turner as his offensive coordinator
- Ray Horton as his defensive coordinator
The front office was filled out with Mike Lombardi as director of player personnel.
If people actually question Norv Turner as an offensive coordinator then I'm sorry but they don't know anything about football so we'll go directly to the other two hires. Mike Lombardi and Ray Horton.
Bill Belichick:
“The foundation of our program in New England had its roots in Cleveland. Mike was instrumental in setting up the personnel structure of that program, which is the basis for our current system. Mike is one of the brightest football minds I have ever worked with. He has a strong understanding of every aspect of the game and the process of putting a team together. Mike’s strong work ethic combined with his extensive experience in the NFL will give the Cleveland Browns an exceptional man for this position.”
Colts Head Coach Chuck Pagano:
“I have known Mike for a long time. He is a football man through and through. He knows the game and personnel. I know he is back doing what he loves to do and will be a tremendous asset to the Browns organization. They got a good man. I am excited for Mike and his family and wish him well as he embarks on this new journey.”
Lions Head Coach Jim Schwartz:
“Michael is one of the hardest working people I've ever met in the NFL. He has an encyclopedia-type knowledge of NFL and college personnel and can speak on any player in the league without looking at notes. I first worked with Michael in Cleveland from 1993-95. Along with Coach (Bill) Belichick, Michael developed a system of evaluating and developing players that is still used by a number of teams. Michael has also shown a commitment in continuing to develop and improve that system over the years. I have confidence that Michael will be an important part of the management team that will make the Browns a winner.”
Those are only the NFL head coaches who have lined up behind Lombardi, too many others to post but if Belichick vouches for Lombardi then I'll give him time to prove himself one way or the other before I'll dump on him.
What about the new Defensive Coordinator Ray Horton?
Here ya go a relaxed in-depth video where he explains his aggresive defensive philosophy to Ron Wolfley when he was the Arizona Cardinal Defensive Coordinator.
My link
The above should provie more than enough evidence that Rob Chudzinski has hired two of the finest coordinators in all of the NFL. Extremely impressive from a rookie HC. Chud definitely got two of the best coordinators and the accolades for Lombardi are also encouraging.
- Norv Turner as his offensive coordinator
- Ray Horton as his defensive coordinator
The front office was filled out with Mike Lombardi as director of player personnel.
If people actually question Norv Turner as an offensive coordinator then I'm sorry but they don't know anything about football so we'll go directly to the other two hires. Mike Lombardi and Ray Horton.
Bill Belichick:
“The foundation of our program in New England had its roots in Cleveland. Mike was instrumental in setting up the personnel structure of that program, which is the basis for our current system. Mike is one of the brightest football minds I have ever worked with. He has a strong understanding of every aspect of the game and the process of putting a team together. Mike’s strong work ethic combined with his extensive experience in the NFL will give the Cleveland Browns an exceptional man for this position.”
Colts Head Coach Chuck Pagano:
“I have known Mike for a long time. He is a football man through and through. He knows the game and personnel. I know he is back doing what he loves to do and will be a tremendous asset to the Browns organization. They got a good man. I am excited for Mike and his family and wish him well as he embarks on this new journey.”
Lions Head Coach Jim Schwartz:
“Michael is one of the hardest working people I've ever met in the NFL. He has an encyclopedia-type knowledge of NFL and college personnel and can speak on any player in the league without looking at notes. I first worked with Michael in Cleveland from 1993-95. Along with Coach (Bill) Belichick, Michael developed a system of evaluating and developing players that is still used by a number of teams. Michael has also shown a commitment in continuing to develop and improve that system over the years. I have confidence that Michael will be an important part of the management team that will make the Browns a winner.”
Those are only the NFL head coaches who have lined up behind Lombardi, too many others to post but if Belichick vouches for Lombardi then I'll give him time to prove himself one way or the other before I'll dump on him.
What about the new Defensive Coordinator Ray Horton?
Here ya go a relaxed in-depth video where he explains his aggresive defensive philosophy to Ron Wolfley when he was the Arizona Cardinal Defensive Coordinator.
My link
The above should provie more than enough evidence that Rob Chudzinski has hired two of the finest coordinators in all of the NFL. Extremely impressive from a rookie HC. Chud definitely got two of the best coordinators and the accolades for Lombardi are also encouraging.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Unless you can blame all drafts that happened under Lombardi on guys like Belichick and Al Davis, you'll have a very, very hard time getting excited for his personnel work. Almost every draft pick he's ever been involved with as GM has been poor. It's not much of an exaggeration or overstatement, either, when you look at his complete body of work.So the biggest question becomes--how much say did he have? Can you really brush this off by attributing the picks to Al Davis and other FO people overriding his input? Is he really this gem whose brilliance with personnel evaluation went unnoticed for over a decade while he was the lead personnel guy in Cleveland and Oakland?How much blame does he hold for these drafts?http://www.theclevelandfan.com/images/stories/Lombardi.jpg
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
Apparently he only fetched coffee and kept pencils sharpened during those drafts and thus has no record at all. This is how folks know that he's a great talent evaluator and anyone who doesn't think so is an idiot with a personal agenda.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
No one knows but I highly doubt that Mike Lombardi poofed out his chest and wagged his finger at Al Davis and said, "I don't care WHAT you say old man, I'm going to take Jamarcus Russell because I say we are going to build the team around him Al. Who cares if YOU are the owner I'M the ... not the GM but ah well you never gave me a title but I'M CALLING THE SHOTS AROUND HERE. Now sit down and have some geritol and watch me and my super ego rule the world." (insert meniacal evil laugher here).I'm pretty sure that anyone with half a brain knows that Al had final say and in the case of Jam-Russel its been widely reported by Jim Nance that Lombardi had NOTHING to do with that pick and didn't want Russell but Mike gained leverage after that bust-a-roo by Al and had much more influence.I know people who hate the hire will be tempted to take the low road and lay every bad player at his doorstep and those who like the hire will say he was more responsible for the good players.I actually hated the firing of Tom Heckertt and couldn't believe Lombardi was the first choice. I certainly did not like every move by Heckertt but loved his overall talent acquisition and feel the FIRST PICK is going to place a TON of pressure on Lombardi to not only come in and start immediately as have all of the top three picks by Heckertt in his three drafts, but also Heckert's second and sometimes third picks in each of his drafts have come in and started from game-one. TONS of pressure on Lombardi's first pick to at the very least come in and start from game-one. That is a lot of pressure.I went back and did some research on Lombardi and instead of looking at vids of his analyst role at NFL station I went to his Twitter page to see his stream-of-conciousness thought patterns and I came away impressed. Very few posts so he isn't a bird brain and he also had many tweets about leadership, I mean lots and lots of tweets about leadership and how to manage people and working together. Very business-like. Very proffessional. Just a small snapshot example of that is how quickly he got back to thank Cecil for his congratulatory text when the Browns hired him. That floored Cecil and that sort of going-out-of-the-way to make a personal touch on a very-very busy day shows this guy gets how to manage people.The research I did on how he set up his scouting deptartment impressed me. It is HIS blueprint that many NFL teams incorporated after his early work back in the 1980s with Belichick that is in use TODAY. How impressive is that?I do NOT know how he is in actually picking the right players. Personnel decisions is ART not SCIENCE so as impressive as he is in a business and proffessional manner he still needs to prove himself as a pure personnel guy in my eyes but I have done the research and I'm willing to give him the chance he deserves. He's certainly earned it IMHO.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The guy who hired Mike Lombardi has stated this every time as the reason why he hired Mike.
My link
I get what he's saying but the proof is in the puddin'. Basically Mike is still going to acquire good players and a huge part of that is selecting good players in the draft.
I don't think its easy even if you have all of your ducks huddled in a row.
I am not high on Lombardi and I'm not down on him.
I am going to evaluate him on what he does rather on what some who have no idea of his influence on past personnel decisions state one way or another.
One crucial aspect for everyone interested in Lombardi's decisions should know is this:
"Perhaps the most important piece of information from the press conference: No one has "final say" over the Browns roster. Banner said that the team will reach decisions by consensus. If there is disagreement among decisions makers (Presumably Lombardi, Banner, and coach Rob Chudzinski), then the team will simply move on to another player."
Mike doesn't have final say but neither does Banner or Chud.
I don't know what to mae of that power structure it is seems a guy who is good at making consensus would is essential for that sort of decision making to be effective.
I'm very interested to see how this works.
My link
I think I know what Banner is talking about but I still can't quite shake my misgivings over the firing of Heckertt but this is the reasoning of Joe Banner as to why he hired Michael Lombardi.Banner feels that Lombardi has a team-building philosophy where players would compliment each other. It appears Banner felt that Heckertt was more focused on picking good players to give the personnel guys a platform to look good.
I get what he's saying but the proof is in the puddin'. Basically Mike is still going to acquire good players and a huge part of that is selecting good players in the draft.
I don't think its easy even if you have all of your ducks huddled in a row.
I am not high on Lombardi and I'm not down on him.
I am going to evaluate him on what he does rather on what some who have no idea of his influence on past personnel decisions state one way or another.
One crucial aspect for everyone interested in Lombardi's decisions should know is this:
"Perhaps the most important piece of information from the press conference: No one has "final say" over the Browns roster. Banner said that the team will reach decisions by consensus. If there is disagreement among decisions makers (Presumably Lombardi, Banner, and coach Rob Chudzinski), then the team will simply move on to another player."
Mike doesn't have final say but neither does Banner or Chud.
I don't know what to mae of that power structure it is seems a guy who is good at making consensus would is essential for that sort of decision making to be effective.
I'm very interested to see how this works.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
That's how low the bar is in Cleveland.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
You're talking about a HC moving to OC and an OC moving to HC. It's not really inconceivable that these guys could be better at their new jobs than their old jobs. In fact, with Turner it's pretty much a lock.
