Cam Bailing on that Fumble... (1 Viewer)

[Warrior]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

I think the Panthers and Packers had very similar situations. Both had their best WR lost for the season and had marginal back ups, except maybe Cobb. Both had a good RB even though Lacy ended up sucking. Both had an average OL if not below average. The biggest difference was that the Panthers had a fantastic defense and Cam performed better than Rodgers.

Who was the Tight End on both teams again?/story

Panthers had a better group of weapons and it showed.

I'm going to go back and watch more games on the all 22, but I'm fairly certain this was right. Rodgers WR's were NFL average this season, much like Newton's, but with lower PFF ratings in aggregate. And Olsen was just a stud this year.

Olsen is a stud, granted. but I'd say Hawkeye is right here, very similar situations. One team was able to rise above the situation. This is just QBR and not their whole game.

but really I'm just poking at sabertooth here. Green Bay made the playoffs in large part because of because of AR. Carolina made the super bowl in large part because of Cam.

Hawkeye? You'll have to help me out there.

Cam was a large part of the offense! That's a reasonable statement. QB's are always going to play a major role in an offense, realistically. But in the ultimate team sport it is not realistic nor accurate to say that X player was an entire offense, or that Y team knows they couldn't have won without Z QB: that's folly. Those are the type of hyperbolic comments brought on by our overhyped, sensationalizing media. It doesn't jibe with the facts.

The facts are Cam had three All Pros lining up with him on offense and a damn good offensive line (anchored by perhaps the best center in the NFL) protecting him. That O-line allowed him the time to find a group of WR's that was above NFL average and a TE who was an elite playmaker, plus the most versatile FB in the NFL. Stewart is still a well above average NFL RB. Taken together, there aren't many QB's that had as much to play with.

All I was really trying to say is that Cam did more with what he had to work with than any other player in the NFL and that's why he deserved the MVP. The Broncos proved just how important he was to that offense when they wouldn't allow him to run too much or give him time to make accurate passes. If he had better talent around him he would have had some help but his WRs dropped balls and his OL could block because the majority of them are average players.

I still don't think you're making that point though. Cam's passing numbers weren't great compared to other QB's. Brady, for one, had less to work with when Edleman was out and he had an abysmal line. Wilson lost his starting RB and TE for much of the season and also had a horrible line. Neither of those two had a pass catching FB who could also block. Wilson didn't even have a TE who excelled at blocking. I'd say both of those QB's did more with less.

The hype built around Cam largely due to the teams record (emphasis on team). But he wasn't the best QB in either half of the season, let alone overall. Also, if memory serves, Benjamin dropped more balls last season than any Panther WR dropped this year. Ginn had 10 this year, but I believe Kelvin had 12 last year. Again, perception trumps reality.

sure, if passing were the only thing he brought to the game he wouldn't be MVP. But he was a top 10 QB and a top 10 running threat. That adds a lot to the hype.

Ginn had the highest percentage of dropped passes of anyone with 40 receptions - except Demarco Murray.

KB had 10 dropped passes last year (same as Ginn this year) with more receptions. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2014/

So Carolina WRs perennially drop passes. Think that might have something to do with the quality of passes being thrown their way?

 

[Soulfly3]

Cam says he bailed and we're still making alternate excuses for it?

What is going on here?

 

[Warrior]

You know the more I look at that replay, the more it appears that Newton's intention was to scoop the ball and try and run with it.

And given that it was 3rd down and the Panthers needed badly to sustain the drive, that'd make a lot of sense.

Conversely, if he leaves his feet to dive for the ball, there's a decent-to-good chance he recovers it, but zero chance they pick up a first down.

I just think Ware getting a hand on the ball foiled the scoop-and-run plan.

That makes way more sense than this fear of injury.

You're wrong. Newton specifically stated recently that he didn't go for the ball to protect his leg. Quit making excuses.

 

[JamesTheScot]

Cam says he bailed and we're still making alternate excuses for it?

What is going on here?

The only thing that surprises me more than Cam thinking that admitting and defending the fact that he bailed on the fumble was the smart play in that Tuesday interview is that his supporters are clamoring for the chance to sink right along with him.

I don't know. Maybe I'm the one out of touch with (this new) reality.

Maybe I need to stick to trying to keep the neighborhood kids off my lawn.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The fumble issue has become conflated with Newton's demeanor during and after the game. I'm ok with not diving after the ball, a teammate was flying in for the ball and Newton did go to the ground to try to get it.

His attitude during the game and after was awful and it's not going to change.

You're really ok with him not diving for a loose ball, in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl, with the game on the line? Not because he was looking for a ricochet, mind you, but because he was afraid to get hurt. You're good with that?

No, not if you put it that way, but I do recall a Panther diving in for the ball. Someone else had the angle. That's what I recall from the game.

When Cam exited stage right DeMarcus Ware had a hand on the ball. But check out the All 22 overhead view of Cam going after it: http://thebiglead.com/2016/02/09/cam-newton-fumble-jump-back-super-bowl/

I think I threw off a comment based on my recollection of the game, but I see I have stepped in it a bit.

I didn't hear about Cam's explanation either.

The first view especially I had not seen.

Really it's part and parcel of the end of the game for Carolina to me, and the way Newton acted overall during that last stretch. I especially did not understand Carolina punting the ball down two scores, yes 4th and long back inside the 10, but go for it, what the hell, try to win the game all the way through.

And when Carolina got the ball back yes down two scores but try something, anything, maybe hurl it deep with that monster arm. And instead it seemed like a lack of urgency and a ditch. I haven't been following the details post-mortum as I admit but it doesn't seem to me that there has been much discussion of that whole end game.

I've grown quite used to Drew Brees and his attitude, and I mostly recall him putting his career on the line way back when for the Chargers and people admire him for that and he's one of the best leaders of men on the field I've ever seen.

 

[FUBAR]

So Carolina WRs perennially drop passes. Think that might have something to do with the quality of passes being thrown their way?

maybe, except Ginn's worst two years (based on dropped percentage) were in Miami and Arizona.

 

[Neofight]

The fumble issue has become conflated with Newton's demeanor during and after the game. I'm ok with not diving after the ball, a teammate was flying in for the ball and Newton did go to the ground to try to get it.

His attitude during the game and after was awful and it's not going to change.

You're really ok with him not diving for a loose ball, in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl, with the game on the line? Not because he was looking for a ricochet, mind you, but because he was afraid to get hurt. You're good with that?

No, not if you put it that way, but I do recall a Panther diving in for the ball. Someone else had the angle. That's what I recall from the game.

When Cam exited stage right DeMarcus Ware had a hand on the ball. But check out the All 22 overhead view of Cam going after it: http://thebiglead.com/2016/02/09/cam-newton-fumble-jump-back-super-bowl/

I think I threw off a comment based on my recollection of the game, but I see I have stepped in it a bit.

I didn't hear about Cam's explanation either.

The first view especially I had not seen.

Really it's part and parcel of the end of the game for Carolina to me, and the way Newton acted overall during that last stretch. I especially did not understand Carolina punting the ball down two scores, yes 4th and long back inside the 10, but go for it, what the hell, try to win the game all the way through.

And when Carolina got the ball back yes down two scores but try something, anything, maybe hurl it deep with that monster arm. And instead it seemed like a lack of urgency and a ditch. I haven't been following the details post-mortum as I admit but it doesn't seem to me that there has been much discussion of that whole end game.

I've grown quite used to Drew Brees and his attitude, and I mostly recall him putting his career on the line way back when for the Chargers and people admire him for that and he's one of the best leaders of men on the field I've ever seen.

Drew Brees is an all time great with character to spare. I thought about that play where he tore his labrum, effectively ending his run in San Diego, as well. Russell Wilson reminds me a lot of Brees, more in character than in style of play. Both are great QB's to watch for their leadership and ability on the field though. I think we've had conversations about that comparison previously...Cam could learn from a guy like Brees, but I think his issues go a bit deeper than just wanting to do things his way or being true to himself. Those are just excuses for his behavior, not the cause of it.

 

[Neofight]

So Carolina WRs perennially drop passes. Think that might have something to do with the quality of passes being thrown their way?

maybe, except Ginn's worst two years (based on dropped percentage) were in Miami and Arizona.

Football Outsiders tracks a stat they call "uncatchable %", if memory serves. I'd be curious to see where Panther WR's fall on that list over the past few years. One criticism that you consistently hear about Cam is accuracy, but another issue is that he doesn't throw it with much touch. He's a bit like Kaepernick in that regard.

 

[FUBAR]

So Carolina WRs perennially drop passes. Think that might have something to do with the quality of passes being thrown their way?

maybe, except Ginn's worst two years (based on dropped percentage) were in Miami and Arizona.

Football Outsiders tracks a stat they call "uncatchable %", if memory serves. I'd be curious to see where Panther WR's fall on that list over the past few years. One criticism that you consistently hear about Cam is accuracy, but another issue is that he doesn't throw it with much touch. He's a bit like Kaepernick in that regard.

I'd guess Cam is pretty high on that list. But the uncatchable passes wouldn't be considered drops, would they?

 

[Neofight]

So Carolina WRs perennially drop passes. Think that might have something to do with the quality of passes being thrown their way?

maybe, except Ginn's worst two years (based on dropped percentage) were in Miami and Arizona.

Football Outsiders tracks a stat they call "uncatchable %", if memory serves. I'd be curious to see where Panther WR's fall on that list over the past few years. One criticism that you consistently hear about Cam is accuracy, but another issue is that he doesn't throw it with much touch. He's a bit like Kaepernick in that regard.

I'd guess Cam is pretty high on that list. But the uncatchable passes wouldn't be considered drops, would they?

No, I believe it looks at under-throws, over-throws, tips at the LOS, throw aways and stuff like that.

 

[Chaka]

So Carolina WRs perennially drop passes. Think that might have something to do with the quality of passes being thrown their way?

It has to be that, after all Ginn is an elite #1 WR with the history and draft pedigree to prove it.

 

[FUBAR]

So Carolina WRs perennially drop passes. Think that might have something to do with the quality of passes being thrown their way?

It has to be that, after all Ginn is an elite #1 WR with the history and draft pedigree to prove it.

Ever wonder if the Fins regret taking him over Patrick Willis or Darrelle Revis?

 

[Franknbeans]

I liken him to Sidney Crosby except without a title

 

[Neofight]

This reminds of some of the issues Cam was struggling with in 2012, and may explain his decision not to dive on the ball:

http://www.fox46charlotte.com/sports/86838828-story

 

[Slapdash]

Whatever. Cam #### the bed when it counted. He's still among the Kirk Cousins' and Carson Palmers of the league.

and yet his QB rating this year was better than Aaron Rodgers. With worse receivers (not that AR had his best, but they're collectively better than the Panthers group).

I think the Panthers and Packers had very similar situations. Both had their best WR lost for the season and had marginal back ups, except maybe Cobb. Both had a good RB even though Lacy ended up sucking. Both had an average OL if not below average. The biggest difference was that the Panthers had a fantastic defense and Cam performed better than Rodgers.

Who was the Tight End on both teams again?

/story

Panthers had a better group of weapons and it showed.

I'm going to go back and watch more games on the all 22, but I'm fairly certain this was right. Rodgers WR's were NFL average this season, much like Newton's, but with lower PFF ratings in aggregate. And Olsen was just a stud this year.

Olsen is a stud, granted. but I'd say Hawkeye is right here, very similar situations. One team was able to rise above the situation. This is just QBR and not their whole game.

but really I'm just poking at sabertooth here. Green Bay made the playoffs in large part because of because of AR. Carolina made the super bowl in large part because of Cam.

Hawkeye? You'll have to help me out there.

Cam was a large part of the offense! That's a reasonable statement. QB's are always going to play a major role in an offense, realistically. But in the ultimate team sport it is not realistic nor accurate to say that X player was an entire offense, or that Y team knows they couldn't have won without Z QB: that's folly. Those are the type of hyperbolic comments brought on by our overhyped, sensationalizing media. It doesn't jibe with the facts.

The facts are Cam had three All Pros lining up with him on offense and a damn good offensive line (anchored by perhaps the best center in the NFL) protecting him. That O-line allowed him the time to find a group of WR's that was above NFL average and a TE who was an elite playmaker, plus the most versatile FB in the NFL. Stewart is still a well above average NFL RB. Taken together, there aren't many QB's that had as much to play with.

All I was really trying to say is that Cam did more with what he had to work with than any other player in the NFL and that's why he deserved the MVP. The Broncos proved just how important he was to that offense when they wouldn't allow him to run too much or give him time to make accurate passes. If he had better talent around him he would have had some help but his WRs dropped balls and his OL could block because the majority of them are average players.

I still don't think you're making that point though. Cam's passing numbers weren't great compared to other QB's. Brady, for one, had less to work with when Edleman was out and he had an abysmal line. Wilson lost his starting RB and TE for much of the season and also had a horrible line. Neither of those two had a pass catching FB who could also block. Wilson didn't even have a TE who excelled at blocking. I'd say both of those QB's did more with less.

The hype built around Cam largely due to the teams record (emphasis on team). But he wasn't the best QB in either half of the season, let alone overall. Also, if memory serves, Benjamin dropped more balls last season than any Panther WR dropped this year. Ginn had 10 this year, but I believe Kelvin had 12 last year. Again, perception trumps reality.

sure, if passing were the only thing he brought to the game he wouldn't be MVP. But he was a top 10 QB and a top 10 running threat. That adds a lot to the hype.

Ginn had the highest percentage of dropped passes of anyone with 40 receptions - except Demarco Murray.

KB had 10 dropped passes last year (same as Ginn this year) with more receptions. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2014/

So Carolina WRs perennially drop passes. Think that might have something to do with the quality of passes being thrown their way?

Didn't watch a lot of Panthers games, I take it

 

[davearm]

You know the more I look at that replay, the more it appears that Newton's intention was to scoop the ball and try and run with it.

And given that it was 3rd down and the Panthers needed badly to sustain the drive, that'd make a lot of sense.

Conversely, if he leaves his feet to dive for the ball, there's a decent-to-good chance he recovers it, but zero chance they pick up a first down.

I just think Ware getting a hand on the ball foiled the scoop-and-run plan.

That makes way more sense than this fear of injury.

You're wrong. Newton specifically stated recently that he didn't go for the ball to protect his leg. Quit making excuses.

I'm wrong about what? That he looked to me like he was trying to scoop and run?

I'm not making any excuses. I'm opining on what I observed.

 

[Chaka]

You know the more I look at that replay, the more it appears that Newton's intention was to scoop the ball and try and run with it.

And given that it was 3rd down and the Panthers needed badly to sustain the drive, that'd make a lot of sense.

Conversely, if he leaves his feet to dive for the ball, there's a decent-to-good chance he recovers it, but zero chance they pick up a first down.

I just think Ware getting a hand on the ball foiled the scoop-and-run plan.

That makes way more sense than this fear of injury.

You're wrong. Newton specifically stated recently that he didn't go for the ball to protect his leg. Quit making excuses.

I'm wrong about what? That he looked to me like he was trying to scoop and run?

I'm not making any excuses. I'm opining on what I observed.

Be that as it may your observation at the time turned out to be wrong. Cam made a public statement that he avoided the ball intentionally because he didn't want to risk injury.

 

[Neofight]

You know the more I look at that replay, the more it appears that Newton's intention was to scoop the ball and try and run with it.

And given that it was 3rd down and the Panthers needed badly to sustain the drive, that'd make a lot of sense.

Conversely, if he leaves his feet to dive for the ball, there's a decent-to-good chance he recovers it, but zero chance they pick up a first down.

I just think Ware getting a hand on the ball foiled the scoop-and-run plan.

That makes way more sense than this fear of injury.

You're wrong. Newton specifically stated recently that he didn't go for the ball to protect his leg. Quit making excuses.

I'm wrong about what? That he looked to me like he was trying to scoop and run?

I'm not making any excuses. I'm opining on what I observed.

Be that as it may your observation at the time turned out to be wrong. Cam made a public statement that he avoided the ball intentionally because he didn't want to risk injury.

Cam could have easily spinning it or, as Brandon Marshall said, speaking "politics". I don't really buy his excuse, but who knows. There's plenty of plausible explanations out there. Davearms makes as much sense as any, given the bizarreness of the play.

 

[davearm]

What's pretty fascinating is that we've got this whole Cam-should-act-more-like-Peyton narrative going on here surrounding the postgame stuff, but yet we've seen Peyton shy away from contact plenty of times to avoid injury, and nobody ever seemed bothered about it.

If a dude with the ball came his way after an INT, Peyton wanted no part of trying to make a tackle. Heck he got to the point this year of curling up in the fetal position if he saw a pass rusher closing in.

 

[Neofight]

It's an undeniable truism that the media is goiing to try to create controversy when framing their arguments. They're great at controversy; not so much at analysis.

 

[Hawkeye21]

What's pretty fascinating is that we've got this whole Cam-should-act-more-like-Peyton narrative going on here surrounding the postgame stuff, but yet we've seen Peyton shy away from contact plenty of times to avoid injury, and nobody ever seemed bothered about it.

If a dude with the ball came his way after an INT, Peyton wanted no part of trying to make a tackle. Heck he got to the point this year of curling up in the fetal position if he saw a pass rusher closing in.

I don't think anyone expects Peyton too. We've all seen his style of play and we know his mobility. Cam is a mobile, physical guy. It takes huge hits and isn't afraid to dive for a first down or TD, it just so happens that those two things give him lots of good attention and he celebrates it. He's cocky and celebrates a lot. He talks a big game but couldn't back it up in the SB.

Peyton does none of the above and I don't think anyone expects him too.

 

[humpback]

You know the more I look at that replay, the more it appears that Newton's intention was to scoop the ball and try and run with it.

And given that it was 3rd down and the Panthers needed badly to sustain the drive, that'd make a lot of sense.

Conversely, if he leaves his feet to dive for the ball, there's a decent-to-good chance he recovers it, but zero chance they pick up a first down.

I just think Ware getting a hand on the ball foiled the scoop-and-run plan.

That makes way more sense than this fear of injury.

You're wrong. Newton specifically stated recently that he didn't go for the ball to protect his leg. Quit making excuses.

I'm wrong about what? That he looked to me like he was trying to scoop and run?

I'm not making any excuses. I'm opining on what I observed.

Be that as it may your observation at the time turned out to be wrong. Cam made a public statement that he avoided the ball intentionally because he didn't want to risk injury.

Cam could have easily spinning it or, as Brandon Marshall said, speaking "politics". I don't really buy his excuse, but who knows. There's plenty of plausible explanations out there. Davearms makes as much sense as any, given the bizarreness of the play.

Anything is possible I guess, but why on earth would he want to spin it that way? He has to realize that it's going to sound much worse to say that he didn't go for the fumble because he didn't want to get hurt than because he wanted to pick it up and try to get a 1st down.

 

[davearm]

It's an undeniable truism that the media is goiing to try to create controversy when framing their arguments. They're great at controversy; not so much at analysis.

It might be most accurate to say they're great at supplying what's demanded. Controversy apparently attracts readership moreso than analysis does (though to be fair, they're not mutually exclusive and there's an audience for both).

 

[Neofight]

It's an undeniable truism that the media is goiing to try to create controversy when framing their arguments. They're great at controversy; not so much at analysis.

It might be most accurate to say they're great at supplying what's demanded. Controversy apparently attracts readership moreso than analysis does (though to be fair, they're not mutually exclusive and there's an audience for both).

I'm not certain controversy is so much demanded as people tend to be like moths to a flame. Whether it's things like playing the race card, over-the-top hype or ridiculous comparisons that lack context, the media spits it out and people can't help but notice the car crash clickbait headlines. But then, I stopped watching ESPN in the 90's, so what do I know?

 

[Chaka]

You know the more I look at that replay, the more it appears that Newton's intention was to scoop the ball and try and run with it.

And given that it was 3rd down and the Panthers needed badly to sustain the drive, that'd make a lot of sense.

Conversely, if he leaves his feet to dive for the ball, there's a decent-to-good chance he recovers it, but zero chance they pick up a first down.

I just think Ware getting a hand on the ball foiled the scoop-and-run plan.

That makes way more sense than this fear of injury.

You're wrong. Newton specifically stated recently that he didn't go for the ball to protect his leg. Quit making excuses.

I'm wrong about what? That he looked to me like he was trying to scoop and run?

I'm not making any excuses. I'm opining on what I observed.

Be that as it may your observation at the time turned out to be wrong. Cam made a public statement that he avoided the ball intentionally because he didn't want to risk injury.

Cam could have easily spinning it or, as Brandon Marshall said, speaking "politics". I don't really buy his excuse, but who knows. There's plenty of plausible explanations out there. Davearms makes as much sense as any, given the bizarreness of the play.

Anything is possible I guess, but why on earth would he want to spin it that way? He has to realize that it's going to sound much worse to say that he didn't go for the fumble because he didn't want to get hurt than because he wanted to pick it up and try to get a 1st down.

Yup. Considering the explanation he went with it is hard to view it as being anything but completely honest.

 

[Neofight]

You know the more I look at that replay, the more it appears that Newton's intention was to scoop the ball and try and run with it.

And given that it was 3rd down and the Panthers needed badly to sustain the drive, that'd make a lot of sense.

Conversely, if he leaves his feet to dive for the ball, there's a decent-to-good chance he recovers it, but zero chance they pick up a first down.

I just think Ware getting a hand on the ball foiled the scoop-and-run plan.

That makes way more sense than this fear of injury.

You're wrong. Newton specifically stated recently that he didn't go for the ball to protect his leg. Quit making excuses.

I'm wrong about what? That he looked to me like he was trying to scoop and run?

I'm not making any excuses. I'm opining on what I observed.

Be that as it may your observation at the time turned out to be wrong. Cam made a public statement that he avoided the ball intentionally because he didn't want to risk injury.

Cam could have easily spinning it or, as Brandon Marshall said, speaking "politics". I don't really buy his excuse, but who knows. There's plenty of plausible explanations out there. Davearms makes as much sense as any, given the bizarreness of the play.

Anything is possible I guess, but why on earth would he want to spin it that way? He has to realize that it's going to sound much worse to say that he didn't go for the fumble because he didn't want to get hurt than because he wanted to pick it up and try to get a 1st down.

Yup. Considering the explanation he went with it is hard to view it as being anything but completely honest.

I considered that, but Cam has made up stories in the past about things that did/did not transpire. Quite frankly, there's plenty of people that are fine with him not wanting to risk injury, so it could've been a calculated risk on his part.I find it interesting that he wouldn't just follow Rivera's lead and say that he was playing the rebound, which Rivera claimed while talking to Florio, post exit interview. That would've been the obvious call. Still, that doesn't prove Cam isn't being calculating.