Can you win a Superbowl with a mediocre QB? (1 Viewer)

[Chase Stuart]

I'm 49 yrs old and I know more about what the NFL was like in the 60s and 70s than most people. Yes, it was a different era and you can't compare the high scoring and passing game of today with those during Morrall's time, but saying "Morrall's numbers in 1972 were very good", is just wrong. How is 1300 yds 11 tds and 7 ints "very good"? He managed the games and ran the ball and the Dolphins played great defense with the "No Name" defense. I will admit that his mediocre was better than a lot of mediocre QBs

Managing a game is pretty important. And Griese showed that not any QB -- not even a HOF QB -- could easily put up good numbers on that team. He averaged over 9 yards per pass attempt. Sure, having a great running game helps, but 9 Y/A is still 9 Y/A. Sure, he didn't have a ton of attempts, but he had a very nice year in an era when not many QBs had very nice years. He had a 91 QBR when the league average was 63.5.

His career QB rating is 74.1. What is the league's QB rating avg for the 20 years from 1956 - 1976?

67.1.Note: Favre's career QB rating is 85.7, and the league average QB R from 1991-2007 was 78.6.

 

[dparker713]

Anyone that thinks that Phil Simms was mediocre, especially in 1986, is off his rocker.

 

[hephner]

Some of these discussions, in my eyes, are between whether a QB was "mediocre" or "good". Maybe the better question to ask for this thread would have been "Can you win a SB without a great QB?" That would narrow down some of the gray area I think.

Big Ben was good, not great. Phil Simms was good, not great. Hostetler, Rypien, etc were mediocre to good. I don't think anyone would argue that QBs like Namath, Montana, Aikman, Elway, Young, Favre, Brady, Peyton, etc. were/are great QBs. Looking at this list, I would say about half the QBs could be classified as great QBs, and close to 2/3 of the SBs won were by those great QBs. But it also shows us that yes, you can win with an average to good QB a decent percentage of the time.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I'm 49 yrs old and I know more about what the NFL was like in the 60s and 70s than most people. Yes, it was a different era and you can't compare the high scoring and passing game of today with those during Morrall's time, but saying "Morrall's numbers in 1972 were very good", is just wrong. How is 1300 yds 11 tds and 7 ints "very good"? He managed the games and ran the ball and the Dolphins played great defense with the "No Name" defense. I will admit that his mediocre was better than a lot of mediocre QBs

Managing a game is pretty important. And Griese showed that not any QB -- not even a HOF QB -- could easily put up good numbers on that team. He averaged over 9 yards per pass attempt. Sure, having a great running game helps, but 9 Y/A is still 9 Y/A. Sure, he didn't have a ton of attempts, but he had a very nice year in an era when not many QBs had very nice years. He had a 91 QBR when the league average was 63.5.

His career QB rating is 74.1. What is the league's QB rating avg for the 20 years from 1956 - 1976?

Chase, you can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by memory.When Roger Staubach retired in 1979, his career QB rating at the time was the highest career rating in history. 83.4

(Staubach recorded the highest passer rating in the NFL in 4 different seasons (1971, 1973, 1978, 1979), and led the league with 23 touchdown passes in 1973.)

Stunning, and certainly sheds light on the difference in eras.

ETA: Looked it up myself to confirm.

Close. At retirement, Staubach had the second highest career QB rating in history. The table below shows the all time career QB Rating leaders, as of 1979. Guys whose last season came after 1979 have an asterisk, since their current career rating is therefore different than it was in 1979. For every QB, their last season in the NFL is shown in the middle column.

86.6	1955	Otto Graham83.4	1979	Roger Staubach82.6	1974	Sonny Jurgensen82.6	1975	Len Dawson80.5	1971	Bart Starr80.4	1978	Fran Tarkenton80.3	1982	*Bert Jones80.2	1984	*Ken Stabler78.9	1986	*Ken Anderson78.2	1973	Johnny Unitas77.6	1970	Frank Ryan77.2	1975	Bob Berry76.8	1980	*Bob Griese75.1	1960	Norm Van Brocklin75.0	1950	Sid Luckman74.8	1968	Don Meredith74.3	1964	Y.A. Tittle74.3	1977	Roman Gabriel74.1	1976	Earl Morrall73.8	1984	*Greg Landry

 

[Chase Stuart]

I think you're vastly overrating a lot of QB's on that list when you're not calling them mediocre. Using just the Redskins' Super Bowl winning QB's, Doug Williams was definitely a mediocre QB, and Theismann and Rypien were little better simply by virtue of being at the peaks of their careers when they won.

Jim Plunkett was the Robert Horry of football, who came alive twice during Super Bowl runs, but his career was nothing of note other than those two postseasons. Ditto Jeff Hostetler. Dilfer obviously. I'd also add Brad Johnson to that list.

You can also argue that, while certainly a product of the era that they played in, Bart Starr and Bob Griese benefitted more from the teams they played on than from anything that they themselves contributed to the championships they won.

Theismann's another guy whose career has been underrated. He was definitely an above average QB. He's not great, but he's one of the best 60 or so QBs of all time. Not shoddy by any stretch. Hostetler was a level below Theisman, but still above average. Johnson had a long and good career. Starr was a top 15-20 QB if you don't want to reward compilers too much, and Griese was just a notch below him.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Anyone that thinks that Phil Simms was mediocre, especially in 1986, is off his rocker.

Simms was pretty bad early in his career, but I can understand if people want to discount that (they do it for Aikman). But '86 was one of Simms' worst seasons. '93 was definitely his best year. But I agree that Simms is certainly not mediocre, and he's probably one of the 30-40 best QBs to ever play the game.

 

[T Bell]

I think you're vastly overrating a lot of QB's on that list when you're not calling them mediocre. Using just the Redskins' Super Bowl winning QB's, Doug Williams was definitely a mediocre QB, and Theismann and Rypien were little better simply by virtue of being at the peaks of their careers when they won.

Jim Plunkett was the Robert Horry of football, who came alive twice during Super Bowl runs, but his career was nothing of note other than those two postseasons. Ditto Jeff Hostetler. Dilfer obviously. I'd also add Brad Johnson to that list.

You can also argue that, while certainly a product of the era that they played in, Bart Starr and Bob Griese benefitted more from the teams they played on than from anything that they themselves contributed to the championships they won.

You had me right until the end.

No kidding.Starr(twice), Namath and Dawson were all SB MVP's. So was Plunkett.

So was Mark Rypien and Doug Williams. I already said they were mediocre. The question is whether a mediocre QB can win a Super Bowl. If you're going to say that a guy is not mediocre based upon one game, then you have to say also that he can be based upon one game, right? What will that do to Big Ben's advocates?

I'm looking past what they did in the Super Bowl (beyond winning it) to determine whether they're "mediocre".

 

[dparker713]

Anyone that thinks that Phil Simms was mediocre, especially in 1986, is off his rocker.

Simms was pretty bad early in his career, but I can understand if people want to discount that (they do it for Aikman). But '86 was one of Simms' worst seasons. '93 was definitely his best year. But I agree that Simms is certainly not mediocre, and he's probably one of the 30-40 best QBs to ever play the game.

I was specifically referring to his play in the playoffs in 1986, when he and the Giants were just unstoppable.

 

[dparker713]

Some of these discussions, in my eyes, are between whether a QB was "mediocre" or "good". Maybe the better question to ask for this thread would have been "Can you win a SB without a great QB?" That would narrow down some of the gray area I think.Big Ben was good, not great. Phil Simms was good, not great. Hostetler, Rypien, etc were mediocre to good. I don't think anyone would argue that QBs like Namath, Montana, Aikman, Elway, Young, Favre, Brady, Peyton, etc. were/are great QBs. Looking at this list, I would say about half the QBs could be classified as great QBs, and close to 2/3 of the SBs won were by those great QBs. But it also shows us that yes, you can win with an average to good QB a decent percentage of the time.

Actually, there is plenty of argument to be made as to your classification of great QBs. Especially Namath.

 

[Brownsfan07]

let me think of three that did win it that sucked. make it 5!

1. trent dilfer - same bum who hated the browns

2. joe namath - yeah i'll get chewed for this but he, other than the guarantee, sucked!

3. terry bradshaw - look at his stats and tell me otherwise!

4. eli manning - until playoffs

5. phil simms - giants sucky qb of the 80's. but they had a ferocious steel curtain killing defense!

i bet there are even more!

what about the top 3 corniest losers!

1. steve mcnair - what a fat bum!

2. whoever that falcons qb was in 1998 - what the hell was that?

3. matt hasselbeck - should have won that game, but failed, even against a pathetic big ben's play!

 

[Andy Herron]

I'm 49 yrs old and I know more about what the NFL was like in the 60s and 70s than most people. Yes, it was a different era and you can't compare the high scoring and passing game of today with those during Morrall's time, but saying "Morrall's numbers in 1972 were very good", is just wrong. How is 1300 yds 11 tds and 7 ints "very good"? He managed the games and ran the ball and the Dolphins played great defense with the "No Name" defense. I will admit that his mediocre was better than a lot of mediocre QBs

Managing a game is pretty important. And Griese showed that not any QB -- not even a HOF QB -- could easily put up good numbers on that team. He averaged over 9 yards per pass attempt. Sure, having a great running game helps, but 9 Y/A is still 9 Y/A. Sure, he didn't have a ton of attempts, but he had a very nice year in an era when not many QBs had very nice years. He had a 91 QBR when the league average was 63.5.

His career QB rating is 74.1. What is the league's QB rating avg for the 20 years from 1956 - 1976?

Chase, you can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by memory.When Roger Staubach retired in 1979, his career QB rating at the time was the highest career rating in history. 83.4

(Staubach recorded the highest passer rating in the NFL in 4 different seasons (1971, 1973, 1978, 1979), and led the league with 23 touchdown passes in 1973.)

Stunning, and certainly sheds light on the difference in eras.

ETA: Looked it up myself to confirm.

Close. At retirement, Staubach had the second highest career QB rating in history. The table below shows the all time career QB Rating leaders, as of 1979. Guys whose last season came after 1979 have an asterisk, since their current career rating is therefore different than it was in 1979. For every QB, their last season in the NFL is shown in the middle column.
86.6 1955 Otto Graham83.4 1979 Roger Staubach82.6 1974 Sonny Jurgensen82.6 1975 Len Dawson80.5 1971 Bart Starr80.4 1978 Fran Tarkenton80.3 1982 *Bert Jones80.2 1984 *Ken Stabler78.9 1986 *Ken Anderson78.2 1973 Johnny Unitas77.6 1970 Frank Ryan77.2 1975 Bob Berry76.8 1980 *Bob Griese75.1 1960 Norm Van Brocklin75.0 1950 Sid Luckman74.8 1968 Don Meredith74.3 1964 Y.A. Tittle74.3 1977 Roman Gabriel74.1 1976 Earl Morrall73.8 1984 *Greg Landry

Hm. My sources had him at #1, but maybe it was in regards to the "modern era."In any case, it certainly indicates the difference in "eras" of today's NFL and years ago.

Obviously, there were no Super Bowls in the Otto Graham years.

 

[dgreen]

I'm 49 yrs old and I know more about what the NFL was like in the 60s and 70s than most people. Yes, it was a different era and you can't compare the high scoring and passing game of today with those during Morrall's time, but saying "Morrall's numbers in 1972 were very good", is just wrong. How is 1300 yds 11 tds and 7 ints "very good"? He managed the games and ran the ball and the Dolphins played great defense with the "No Name" defense. I will admit that his mediocre was better than a lot of mediocre QBs

Managing a game is pretty important. And Griese showed that not any QB -- not even a HOF QB -- could easily put up good numbers on that team. He averaged over 9 yards per pass attempt. Sure, having a great running game helps, but 9 Y/A is still 9 Y/A. Sure, he didn't have a ton of attempts, but he had a very nice year in an era when not many QBs had very nice years. He had a 91 QBR when the league average was 63.5.

His career QB rating is 74.1. What is the league's QB rating avg for the 20 years from 1956 - 1976?

Chase, you can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by memory.When Roger Staubach retired in 1979, his career QB rating at the time was the highest career rating in history. 83.4

(Staubach recorded the highest passer rating in the NFL in 4 different seasons (1971, 1973, 1978, 1979), and led the league with 23 touchdown passes in 1973.)

Stunning, and certainly sheds light on the difference in eras.

ETA: Looked it up myself to confirm.

Close. At retirement, Staubach had the second highest career QB rating in history. The table below shows the all time career QB Rating leaders, as of 1979. Guys whose last season came after 1979 have an asterisk, since their current career rating is therefore different than it was in 1979. For every QB, their last season in the NFL is shown in the middle column.
86.6 1955 Otto Graham83.4 1979 Roger Staubach82.6 1974 Sonny Jurgensen82.6 1975 Len Dawson80.5 1971 Bart Starr80.4 1978 Fran Tarkenton80.3 1982 *Bert Jones80.2 1984 *Ken Stabler78.9 1986 *Ken Anderson78.2 1973 Johnny Unitas77.6 1970 Frank Ryan77.2 1975 Bob Berry76.8 1980 *Bob Griese75.1 1960 Norm Van Brocklin75.0 1950 Sid Luckman74.8 1968 Don Meredith74.3 1964 Y.A. Tittle74.3 1977 Roman Gabriel74.1 1976 Earl Morrall73.8 1984 *Greg Landry

Hm. My sources had him at #1, but maybe it was in regards to the "modern era."In any case, it certainly indicates the difference in "eras" of today's NFL and years ago.

Obviously, there were no Super Bowls in the Otto Graham years.

Graham's includes his AAFC stats. His NFL passer rating was 78.2.

 

[Andy Herron]

I'm 49 yrs old and I know more about what the NFL was like in the 60s and 70s than most people. Yes, it was a different era and you can't compare the high scoring and passing game of today with those during Morrall's time, but saying "Morrall's numbers in 1972 were very good", is just wrong. How is 1300 yds 11 tds and 7 ints "very good"? He managed the games and ran the ball and the Dolphins played great defense with the "No Name" defense. I will admit that his mediocre was better than a lot of mediocre QBs

Managing a game is pretty important. And Griese showed that not any QB -- not even a HOF QB -- could easily put up good numbers on that team. He averaged over 9 yards per pass attempt. Sure, having a great running game helps, but 9 Y/A is still 9 Y/A. Sure, he didn't have a ton of attempts, but he had a very nice year in an era when not many QBs had very nice years. He had a 91 QBR when the league average was 63.5.

His career QB rating is 74.1. What is the league's QB rating avg for the 20 years from 1956 - 1976?

Chase, you can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by memory.When Roger Staubach retired in 1979, his career QB rating at the time was the highest career rating in history. 83.4

(Staubach recorded the highest passer rating in the NFL in 4 different seasons (1971, 1973, 1978, 1979), and led the league with 23 touchdown passes in 1973.)

Stunning, and certainly sheds light on the difference in eras.

ETA: Looked it up myself to confirm.

Close. At retirement, Staubach had the second highest career QB rating in history. The table below shows the all time career QB Rating leaders, as of 1979. Guys whose last season came after 1979 have an asterisk, since their current career rating is therefore different than it was in 1979. For every QB, their last season in the NFL is shown in the middle column.
86.6 1955 Otto Graham83.4 1979 Roger Staubach82.6 1974 Sonny Jurgensen82.6 1975 Len Dawson80.5 1971 Bart Starr80.4 1978 Fran Tarkenton80.3 1982 *Bert Jones80.2 1984 *Ken Stabler78.9 1986 *Ken Anderson78.2 1973 Johnny Unitas77.6 1970 Frank Ryan77.2 1975 Bob Berry76.8 1980 *Bob Griese75.1 1960 Norm Van Brocklin75.0 1950 Sid Luckman74.8 1968 Don Meredith74.3 1964 Y.A. Tittle74.3 1977 Roman Gabriel74.1 1976 Earl Morrall73.8 1984 *Greg Landry

Hm. My sources had him at #1, but maybe it was in regards to the "modern era."In any case, it certainly indicates the difference in "eras" of today's NFL and years ago.

Obviously, there were no Super Bowls in the Otto Graham years.

Graham's includes his AAFC stats. His NFL passer rating was 78.2.

Ah!! Thank you!I'm pretty good when it comes to Cowboy lore, I was stunned to think I had that wrong.

Not that I'm always right, but when it comes to the Cowboys I'll go up against anybody.

Sigh. I feel better now. Thanks again.