Chi/NYG Hester's return off "block" or "miss" (1 Viewer)

[deacon14]

This is causing an issue in a league I commish. Quickly, we have seperate defense and special teams units. To make things easy, special teams only gets credit for kick and punt returns. The glitch, of course, is that we talked about a missed field goal returned for a touchdown (after that whacky Gould kick went sideways against San Fran.) Pretty much unanimously, we felt that if the ball was not blocked and not tipped or touched the return was "offensive" in nature and should go to special teams like a kick or punt return. Conversely, if the field goal was blocked, tipped, or touched the play became "defensive" or attacking in nature and should go to the defense. Finally, our rules page says clearly. "Blocked punts and field goals returned for a touchdown will be credited to the defense."

Anyways, both NFL.com and cbssportsline.com have (in the box score) "Devin Hester 108 yd. blocked field goal return." We are on rtsports and they have missed. Which is it? I watched the youtube clips fifty times and can't tell. I can hear a lineman yell out (almost like a basketball player would yell to the scorers table to signify he tipped one in) but can't be 100% certain.

Can anybody shed any definitive light? Is there another source I can go to for clarity? Thanks in advance for your time and assistance.

 

[painkiller]

Here's how I handle situations like this:

We have the official scoring listed as the gamebook at nfl.com (it's in the rules). If there are any disputes, that is the final source. Since the statistician recorded it as a blocked kick for TD, then that's how we would rule it in our league and it would get scored appropriately.

EDIT TO ADD - If your official scoring is RTSports, then that's what you have to go with.

If you start trying to watch the game and determine if a kick was blocked or tipped, then you open up a big can of worms for other disputes. Just go by the official stats.

I understand the desire to get things correct based on what actually happened, but as commish, I don't want to have to make judgement calls on what actually happened by watching YouTube, NFL Network, or my Tivo replay.

 

[dgreen]

What if a player jumps up, tips the kick, and then catches it before it hits the ground? A block, right? Now, imagine a player jumps up at the LOS and catches the ball cleanly, without a tip. Is that not a block just because he caught it?

 

[cracKer]

What if a player jumps up, tips the kick, and then catches it before it hits the ground? A block, right? Now, imagine a player jumps up at the LOS and catches the ball cleanly, without a tip. Is that not a block just because he caught it?

True. The Bears touched the ball before it went through the uprights. Their "block" just occurred a little further down the field than what we're used to.

 

[deacon14]

That's a good point. Devil's advocate here. Wouldn't a block, tip or touch have to interrupt the impetus of the ball and not just be a catch in the endzone? I dunno. Are you saying that these big timer sites are only calling this a block because Hester caught it and therefore there would never be such a thing as a missed field goal return? I need to know if a Bear lineman touched that freakin' ball.

FTR, we don't have an official source for stats...so it's not rtsports or nfl or cbs. We know what we want. All I need to know is if a Bear lineman actually touched Feelys ball. Ararar...That sounded funny.

 

[dgreen]

That's a good point. Devil's advocate here. Wouldn't a block, tip or touch have to interrupt the impetus of the ball and not just be a catch in the endzone? I dunno. Are you saying that these big timer sites are only calling this a block because Hester caught it and therefore there would never be such a thing as a missed field goal return?

As far as I know, there is no Field Goal Return stat. I doubt they are interested in creating a stat they will be used once every 5 years.

I need to know if a Bear lineman touched that freakin' ball.

No. Only Hester touched the ball.

 

[painkiller]

FTR, we don't have an official source for stats...so it's not rtsports or nfl or cbs. We know what we want. All I need to know is if a Bear lineman actually touched Feelys ball. Ararar...That sounded funny.

If this is the case, then here's your answer:

True. The Bears touched the ball before it went through the uprights. Their "block" just occurred a little further down the field than what we're used to.

The lineman did not touch the ball, since Hester is a DB. If a DB can block a kick, then you'd think this would be a block.

 

[deacon14]

If I'm following you guys then...

There is no such thing as two different plays

"Missed field goal returned for a touchdown"

&

"Blocked field goal returned for a touchdown"

There is only one possibility "Blocked" and therefore there is a glitch in our notion that a "missed" return is offfensive in nature and should be classified as special teams and a "blocked" return is attacking and defensive in nature and should be classified as defense.

I think I get it and will fix it FOR NEXT YEAR. For now, I have a rule book that says "Blocked punts and field goals will be credited to the defense while the whole league sat and agreed that an untouched field goal returned for a touchdown seems like a punt or kickoff return and should be credited as such. I'm good to go next year, just effed to high heaven this year, unless I can get confirmation that Joe Blow on the Bears interrupted the impetus of that ball before Hester got his mitts on it. Hey, thanks for helping!!! I sure do appreciate it.

 

[heckmanm]

If I'm following you guys then...There is no such thing as two different plays"Missed field goal returned for a touchdown"&"Blocked field goal returned for a touchdown"There is only one possibility "Blocked" and therefore there is a glitch in our notion that a "missed" return is offfensive in nature and should be classified as special teams and a "blocked" return is attacking and defensive in nature and should be classified as defense.I think I get it and will fix it FOR NEXT YEAR. For now, I have a rule book that says "Blocked punts and field goals will be credited to the defense while the whole league sat and agreed that an untouched field goal returned for a touchdown seems like a punt or kickoff return and should be credited as such. I'm good to go next year, just effed to high heaven this year, unless I can get confirmation that Joe Blow on the Bears interrupted the impetus of that ball before Hester got his mitts on it. Hey, thanks for helping!!! I sure do appreciate it.

FWIW, my league also has separate DEF and ST positions. For us, anything that happens on a play where the ball is kicked goes to Special Teams - returns, blocks, fumbles.Now, if it's a fake punt/FG, I think our stats service would treat it as a normal offensive/defensive play.

 

[my man otis]

It absolutely was NOT blocked, tipped or whatever. He was short on a FG and it got returned. It's part of the NFL rules that a missed FG that doesn't leave the field of play can be returned.

A blocked kick is a different play altogether, though one can argue that the results are the same.

If you look on the GAMEBOOK, a more offical source, it's called "D.Hester 108 yd. field goal return (R.Gould kick)" (not BLOCKED FG).

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20061112_CHI@NYG

I believe the websites are showing blocked kick b/c they didn't know what else to put as the live scoring was going on. Plays are updated in the gamebook subsequent to the live scoring page, which AFAIK is not touched after gameday.

In fact, an exact same play from last year was termed "N.Vasher 108 yd. field goal return (R.Gould kick)", exactly the same thing.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20051113_SF@CHI

Not only that, but it's a Special Teams play, not offensive or defensive. It's the exact same thing as a punt or kickoff return.

Unless there is was a scoring setup error by your commish you need to let the hosting site do what it's supposed to do.

In my league we've got a rule that states the scores sportsline uses are 120% final unless the commish gets a personal call from the NFL commissioner himself.

 

[deacon14]

Good stuff Otis! I should let you know that our league does not want blocked punts returned for TD's to be credited to special teams. True, they are on the field but they are there for fake's too...that go for offensive TD's. No way I want to get into that one...opens too many cans of worms as they are hard to define with so many QB's holding. Our thought process is oft times a defense pins teams deep and the short drop causes the punt block and subsequent return. WE WANT ONLY punt and kickoff returns for special teams.

Thanks again...

 

[Big Score]

We are on rtsports and they have missed.

We're on RTS as well & on our RTS League Home Page, they clearly say;

ALERT: Notice from RealTime Fantasy Sports

The Chicago Bears 108-yard missed field goal TD return has been interpreted as an offensive special teams touchdown. This intepretation stems from the fact that during a field goal the kicking team is on offense until the ball passes the line of scrimmage. At that point the kicking team becomes the defensive unit (and hence cannot recover or advance the kick unless the opposing team touches it first.) If your league does not agree with this decision the commissioner may always manually adjust any teams score at any time.

In essence, this is the same as a kickoff return TD, with the points awarded based on your rules for a kick return TD and subsequent length.

 

[my man otis]

Good stuff Otis! I should let you know that our league does not want blocked punts returned for TD's to be credited to special teams. True, they are on the field but they are there for fake's too...that go for offensive TD's. No way I want to get into that one...opens too many cans of worms as they are hard to define with so many QB's holding. Our thought process is oft times a defense pins teams deep and the short drop causes the punt block and subsequent return. WE WANT ONLY punt and kickoff returns for special teams.Thanks again...

It's my man otis...don't want to be taking Otis' name! I can appreciate your statement that a fake punt/FG for a TD would be considered offensive, but how is that any different from a team going for it on 4th down? It's the same thing IMO, just a different formation. Can of worms, true.I'm guessing your scoring system has separate field for punt return and kick return for TDs, so just fix it next year. That's a good way to go about it, just narrow down what you want and set the league up that way, don't use anything broad.

 

[CalBear]

Good stuff Otis! I should let you know that our league does not want blocked punts returned for TD's to be credited to special teams. True, they are on the field but they are there for fake's too...that go for offensive TD's. No way I want to get into that one...opens too many cans of worms as they are hard to define with so many QB's holding. Our thought process is oft times a defense pins teams deep and the short drop causes the punt block and subsequent return. WE WANT ONLY punt and kickoff returns for special teams.

A fake field goal is not a special teams play; it's not a special teams play until and unless the ball is kicked. All plays with kicks are special teams plays.Also, by NFL scoring rules, it's not a blocked kick if the ball makes it past the line of scrimmage.

 

[videoguy505]

From the other thread on this:

• Jay Feely (NYG) Missed a 52 yard Field Goal attempt, and Devin Hester (CHI) Returned it 108 yards for a TD. Since neither our stats provider nor our site has a separate scoring rule for “Missed Field Goal Return TD,” this TD has been scored as a “Blocked Field Goal Return TD” without any corresponding block.

 

[Liquid Tension]

This is causing an issue in a league I commish. Quickly, we have seperate defense and special teams units. To make things easy, special teams only gets credit for kick and punt returns. The glitch, of course, is that we talked about a missed field goal returned for a touchdown (after that whacky Gould kick went sideways against San Fran.) Pretty much unanimously, we felt that if the ball was not blocked and not tipped or touched the return was "offensive" in nature and should go to special teams like a kick or punt return. Conversely, if the field goal was blocked, tipped, or touched the play became "defensive" or attacking in nature and should go to the defense. Finally, our rules page says clearly. "Blocked punts and field goals returned for a touchdown will be credited to the defense."Anyways, both NFL.com and cbssportsline.com have (in the box score) "Devin Hester 108 yd. blocked field goal return." We are on rtsports and they have missed. Which is it? I watched the youtube clips fifty times and can't tell. I can hear a lineman yell out (almost like a basketball player would yell to the scorers table to signify he tipped one in) but can't be 100% certain.Can anybody shed any definitive light? Is there another source I can go to for clarity? Thanks in advance for your time and assistance.

That ball was NOT tipped in any way shape or form. I have the game Tivo'd in HD on a 65" TV and it was not touched until Hester caught it. RTSports, as usual, is correct.

 

[deacon14]

This is causing an issue in a league I commish. Quickly, we have seperate defense and special teams units. To make things easy, special teams only gets credit for kick and punt returns. The glitch, of course, is that we talked about a missed field goal returned for a touchdown (after that whacky Gould kick went sideways against San Fran.) Pretty much unanimously, we felt that if the ball was not blocked and not tipped or touched the return was "offensive" in nature and should go to special teams like a kick or punt return. Conversely, if the field goal was blocked, tipped, or touched the play became "defensive" or attacking in nature and should go to the defense. Finally, our rules page says clearly. "Blocked punts and field goals returned for a touchdown will be credited to the defense."Anyways, both NFL.com and cbssportsline.com have (in the box score) "Devin Hester 108 yd. blocked field goal return." We are on rtsports and they have missed. Which is it? I watched the youtube clips fifty times and can't tell. I can hear a lineman yell out (almost like a basketball player would yell to the scorers table to signify he tipped one in) but can't be 100% certain.Can anybody shed any definitive light? Is there another source I can go to for clarity? Thanks in advance for your time and assistance.

That ball was NOT tipped in any way shape or form. I have the game Tivo'd in HD on a 65" TV and it was not touched until Hester caught it. RTSports, as usual, is correct.

Thanks for the bit about high def and Tivo, I sure do appreciate knowing that. I dunno about that RTSports comment though. Do you own stock? Kidding. I'll tell yah this, one of my leagues is moving to MFL next year because of RTSports patheticness on the free agent process. Presently, they (admittedly) have no ability to handle conditional bidding. When you try, it ranks your bids in order of dollar value. Boo!

 

[There it is]

Bears | Hester close to tying special teams record

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:42:19 -0800

Larry Mayer, of ChicagoBears.com, reports Chicago Bears rookie CB/PR Devin Hester has three kick returns for touchdowns this season, one short of the NFL record that is shared by nine players in NFL history.

I'll be interested to see how Mike Herman scores this later today in his Returner Guys.

 

[There it is]

My commish gave me credit for a PR for a Td. But, no bonus for the yards as if it was a PR???

Maybe Mike Herman will explain his decision.

 

[cracKer]

You know what would solve this problem?

 

[Liquid Tension]

This is causing an issue in a league I commish. Quickly, we have seperate defense and special teams units. To make things easy, special teams only gets credit for kick and punt returns. The glitch, of course, is that we talked about a missed field goal returned for a touchdown (after that whacky Gould kick went sideways against San Fran.) Pretty much unanimously, we felt that if the ball was not blocked and not tipped or touched the return was "offensive" in nature and should go to special teams like a kick or punt return. Conversely, if the field goal was blocked, tipped, or touched the play became "defensive" or attacking in nature and should go to the defense. Finally, our rules page says clearly. "Blocked punts and field goals returned for a touchdown will be credited to the defense."Anyways, both NFL.com and cbssportsline.com have (in the box score) "Devin Hester 108 yd. blocked field goal return." We are on rtsports and they have missed. Which is it? I watched the youtube clips fifty times and can't tell. I can hear a lineman yell out (almost like a basketball player would yell to the scorers table to signify he tipped one in) but can't be 100% certain.Can anybody shed any definitive light? Is there another source I can go to for clarity? Thanks in advance for your time and assistance.

That ball was NOT tipped in any way shape or form. I have the game Tivo'd in HD on a 65" TV and it was not touched until Hester caught it. RTSports, as usual, is correct.

Thanks for the bit about high def and Tivo, I sure do appreciate knowing that. I dunno about that RTSports comment though. Do you own stock? Kidding. I'll tell yah this, one of my leagues is moving to MFL next year because of RTSports patheticness on the free agent process. Presently, they (admittedly) have no ability to handle conditional bidding. When you try, it ranks your bids in order of dollar value. Boo!

We don't use bidding and I like everything else about RTSports better than any site I have used. If I bid I might have that same issue though and go elsewhere. I would be surprised though if RT didn't get that in for next year. RT also has a great archiving feature on the site so if you have a league that is 3 years old you can always look back at past years.

 

[BowlBound]

This is what was left as system notes on the site we use talking about the missed FG.

System News

NOTE: Since we do not have a "Missed FG Return TD" scoring category, the Chicago TD on the missed field goal has been marked as a "Blocked Field Goal TD".