Class of 2012 Hall of Fame Finalists (1 Viewer)

[Evilgrin 72]

In before the Steeler homers get all silly with their shilling for Bettis.

The Steeler homers will shill for Dawson before Bettis. The guy was 1st team All-Pro six straight years at a position where only one guy gets that honor. IMO, if you're unquestionably the single best player at your position (non-kicker) for 6 consecutive seasons, you belong in the HOF.For all the people here that consistently argue peak value over "compiling", here is your guy. How many other players in NFL history can you say were the clear-cut best at their position for a 6-year span? The list is pretty short.

I'm not disagreeing with your assertion that Dawson deserves the HOF or the idea that he was the best C of his era. I agree with you there. But, there are very few things in these conversations that are "unquestionable" and I don't think AP selections necessarily make something "unquestionable".

True, but I think that was a virtually unanimous opinion during those years. The guy was head-and-shoulders above the pack for a while there. If you discuss "the best C of all-time", Dawson's name comes up relatively quickly. Most people seem to think Webster is the best, maybe Otto (never saw him play) and beyond those 2, you get to Dawson, Stephenson, and a few guys that played in the 40s and 50s. If you're on the short list of greatest of all-time at your position, I think you warrant a bust, even at a non-glamour position. Hell, Barry Sanders was only 1st team All-Pro 6 times, and they take 2 RBs to only 1 C on those teams.

 

[Tau837]

In before the Steeler homers get all silly with their shilling for Bettis.

The Steeler homers will shill for Dawson before Bettis. The guy was 1st team All-Pro six straight years at a position where only one guy gets that honor. IMO, if you're unquestionably the single best player at your position (non-kicker) for 6 consecutive seasons, you belong in the HOF.For all the people here that consistently argue peak value over "compiling", here is your guy. How many other players in NFL history can you say were the clear-cut best at their position for a 6-year span? The list is pretty short.

I'm not disagreeing with your assertion that Dawson deserves the HOF or the idea that he was the best C of his era. I agree with you there. But, there are very few things in these conversations that are "unquestionable" and I don't think AP selections necessarily make something "unquestionable".

True, but I think that was a virtually unanimous opinion during those years. The guy was head-and-shoulders above the pack for a while there. If you discuss "the best C of all-time", Dawson's name comes up relatively quickly. Most people seem to think Webster is the best, maybe Otto (never saw him play) and beyond those 2, you get to Dawson, Stephenson, and a few guys that played in the 40s and 50s. If you're on the short list of greatest of all-time at your position, I think you warrant a bust, even at a non-glamour position. Hell, Barry Sanders was only 1st team All-Pro 6 times, and they take 2 RBs to only 1 C on those teams.

I agree Dawson should make it this year, as I already posted.It's probably semantics, but I don't think anyone really argues that Dawson is the greatest center of all time. If you are instead saying he ranks high on the all time list of centers, I agree. Otto, Hein, and Webster are the top 3 IMO, but after that there is a group that is harder to rank, including Ringo, Langer, Stephenson, and Dawson. I think Matthews and Bednarik may deserve to be in that group, but their performances at center was overshadowed by their performances at other positions. And I probably missed someone. I certainly think it is arguable that Dawson is in the top 10, hard to say how high he should rank.

 

[Tau837]

This year IMOTim Brown – Cris Carter – Dermontti Dawson – Andre Reed – Aeneas Williams – as an Eagle fan I hated playing against this guy. He constantly came up with huge plays and I think was one of the 1st to be called a "shut-down" corner before moving to safety and playing very well there too.Should be in as well (ranked)Cortez Kennedy – seriously under-rated as all DTsChris Doleman – somehow he's been forgottenCharles Haley – headcase apparently doesn't helpBill Parcells – I don't think he's as great as he and everyone thinks he is but he'll get in and I wouldn't be surprised if its this year Willie Roaf –

I very seriously doubt that 2 WRs, much less 3, will be selected in the same class.

 

[Tau837]

I certainly think it is arguable that Dawson is in the top 10, hard to say how high he should rank.

If it is true that Dawson is a top 10 center, then we know that the top 10 centers of all time who are eligible for HOF induction are not in the HOF. That must also be true of safety, since only 9 safeties are inducted (counting Lott and Renfro as safeties and Woodson as CB). Not sure about other positions.Not including specialists, what eligible players who are not in the HOF were top 10 at their positions?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

In before the Steeler homers get all silly with their shilling for Bettis.

The Steeler homers will shill for Dawson before Bettis. The guy was 1st team All-Pro six straight years at a position where only one guy gets that honor. IMO, if you're unquestionably the single best player at your position (non-kicker) for 6 consecutive seasons, you belong in the HOF.For all the people here that consistently argue peak value over "compiling", here is your guy. How many other players in NFL history can you say were the clear-cut best at their position for a 6-year span? The list is pretty short.

I'm not disagreeing with your assertion that Dawson deserves the HOF or the idea that he was the best C of his era. I agree with you there. But, there are very few things in these conversations that are "unquestionable" and I don't think AP selections necessarily make something "unquestionable".

True, but I think that was a virtually unanimous opinion during those years. The guy was head-and-shoulders above the pack for a while there. If you discuss "the best C of all-time", Dawson's name comes up relatively quickly. Most people seem to think Webster is the best, maybe Otto (never saw him play) and beyond those 2, you get to Dawson, Stephenson, and a few guys that played in the 40s and 50s. If you're on the short list of greatest of all-time at your position, I think you warrant a bust, even at a non-glamour position. Hell, Barry Sanders was only 1st team All-Pro 6 times, and they take 2 RBs to only 1 C on those teams.

I agree Dawson should make it this year, as I already posted.It's probably semantics, but I don't think anyone really argues that Dawson is the greatest center of all time. If you are instead saying he ranks high on the all time list of centers, I agree. Otto, Hein, and Webster are the top 3 IMO, but after that there is a group that is harder to rank, including Ringo, Langer, Stephenson, and Dawson. I think Matthews and Bednarik may deserve to be in that group, but their performances at center was overshadowed by their performances at other positions. And I probably missed someone. I certainly think it is arguable that Dawson is in the top 10, hard to say how high he should rank.

I'm simply saying his name comes up in a group to choose from. Otto, Hein, Ringo, Langer - these guys all played before most of us were even born, which is not to downplay what they did, but they played in a different era. In the last 40 or so years, I think Webster, Dawson, and Stephenson are the short list, and wherever you put Dawson on that list, I think any non-kicker who is frequently mentioned in the top 3 at his position in the Super Bowl era....that alone should be enough to be in the Hall of Fame, IMO.

 

[Sabertooth]

How is Leroy Butler not in the hall? He made several All-pro teams, invented the Lambeau Leap, won a Super Bowl, tons of picks, sacks, and tackles.

 

[Tau837]

How is Leroy Butler not in the hall? He made several All-pro teams, invented the Lambeau Leap, won a Super Bowl, tons of picks, sacks, and tackles.

I agree he should be in, as I have posted many times in HOF discussions on this forum. But he has gotten zero support from the voters as far as I know. Not sure why.

 

[Tau837]

In before the Steeler homers get all silly with their shilling for Bettis.

The Steeler homers will shill for Dawson before Bettis. The guy was 1st team All-Pro six straight years at a position where only one guy gets that honor. IMO, if you're unquestionably the single best player at your position (non-kicker) for 6 consecutive seasons, you belong in the HOF.For all the people here that consistently argue peak value over "compiling", here is your guy. How many other players in NFL history can you say were the clear-cut best at their position for a 6-year span? The list is pretty short.

I'm not disagreeing with your assertion that Dawson deserves the HOF or the idea that he was the best C of his era. I agree with you there. But, there are very few things in these conversations that are "unquestionable" and I don't think AP selections necessarily make something "unquestionable".

True, but I think that was a virtually unanimous opinion during those years. The guy was head-and-shoulders above the pack for a while there. If you discuss "the best C of all-time", Dawson's name comes up relatively quickly. Most people seem to think Webster is the best, maybe Otto (never saw him play) and beyond those 2, you get to Dawson, Stephenson, and a few guys that played in the 40s and 50s. If you're on the short list of greatest of all-time at your position, I think you warrant a bust, even at a non-glamour position. Hell, Barry Sanders was only 1st team All-Pro 6 times, and they take 2 RBs to only 1 C on those teams.

I agree Dawson should make it this year, as I already posted.It's probably semantics, but I don't think anyone really argues that Dawson is the greatest center of all time. If you are instead saying he ranks high on the all time list of centers, I agree. Otto, Hein, and Webster are the top 3 IMO, but after that there is a group that is harder to rank, including Ringo, Langer, Stephenson, and Dawson. I think Matthews and Bednarik may deserve to be in that group, but their performances at center was overshadowed by their performances at other positions. And I probably missed someone. I certainly think it is arguable that Dawson is in the top 10, hard to say how high he should rank.

I'm simply saying his name comes up in a group to choose from. Otto, Hein, Ringo, Langer - these guys all played before most of us were even born, which is not to downplay what they did, but they played in a different era. In the last 40 or so years, I think Webster, Dawson, and Stephenson are the short list, and wherever you put Dawson on that list, I think any non-kicker who is frequently mentioned in the top 3 at his position in the Super Bowl era....that alone should be enough to be in the Hall of Fame, IMO.

Yes, this is better stated, and I agree.

 

[Shane Falco]

This year IMOTim Brown – Cris Carter – Dermontti Dawson – Andre Reed – Aeneas Williams – as an Eagle fan I hated playing against this guy. He constantly came up with huge plays and I think was one of the 1st to be called a "shut-down" corner before moving to safety and playing very well there too.Should be in as well (ranked)Cortez Kennedy – seriously under-rated as all DTsChris Doleman – somehow he's been forgottenCharles Haley – headcase apparently doesn't helpBill Parcells – I don't think he's as great as he and everyone thinks he is but he'll get in and I wouldn't be surprised if its this year Willie Roaf –

I very seriously doubt that 2 WRs, much less 3, will be selected in the same class.

I agree but I would put them in over the other candidates

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

invented the Lambeau Leap

 

[Sabertooth]

invented the Lambeau Leap

 

[Bri]

I certainly think it is arguable that Dawson is in the top 10, hard to say how high he should rank.

If it is true that Dawson is a top 10 center, then we know that the top 10 centers of all time who are eligible for HOF induction are not in the HOF. That must also be true of safety, since only 9 safeties are inducted (counting Lott and Renfro as safeties and Woodson as CB). Not sure about other positions.Not including specialists, what eligible players who are not in the HOF were top 10 at their positions?

I don't like this tangent. If a C plays 10 years, then we're talking maybe 7 best of during those eras.

 

[Bri]

In before the Steeler homers get all silly with their shilling for Bettis.

The Steeler homers will shill for Dawson before Bettis. The guy was 1st team All-Pro six straight years at a position where only one guy gets that honor. IMO, if you're unquestionably the single best player at your position (non-kicker) for 6 consecutive seasons, you belong in the HOF.For all the people here that consistently argue peak value over "compiling", here is your guy. How many other players in NFL history can you say were the clear-cut best at their position for a 6-year span? The list is pretty short.

I'm not disagreeing with your assertion that Dawson deserves the HOF or the idea that he was the best C of his era. I agree with you there. But, there are very few things in these conversations that are "unquestionable" and I don't think AP selections necessarily make something "unquestionable".

True, but I think that was a virtually unanimous opinion during those years. The guy was head-and-shoulders above the pack for a while there. If you discuss "the best C of all-time", Dawson's name comes up relatively quickly. Most people seem to think Webster is the best, maybe Otto (never saw him play) and beyond those 2, you get to Dawson, Stephenson, and a few guys that played in the 40s and 50s. If you're on the short list of greatest of all-time at your position, I think you warrant a bust, even at a non-glamour position. Hell, Barry Sanders was only 1st team All-Pro 6 times, and they take 2 RBs to only 1 C on those teams.

No he wasn't. Most of the time, absolutely, but Kevin Mawae was a top C too and Seattle was in the AFC when Dawson played. Mawae was a great player stuck (in this context) behind an awesome player. On occasion, some did feel Mawae was better for a single season. By that I mean it was debatable on occasion. Mawae is going to be a tough guy to get into the hall and make for some fun debates.

 

[N Zone]

Shouldn't Eric Allen get consideration?

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Why no love for Chris Doleman?

Viking fan who loved Doleman but I am not sure he is hallworthy. Chris Carter is much more deserving. And I agree with previous poster that there are several OL types who deserve recognition this year--Roaf and Shields. I also like Curtis Martin, but don't know if this is his year. I don't think Parcels is a first ballot guy, but he will probably get it anyway. Seems like HC and owners who won a SB are automatics.Mine:Jack Butler (because you have to have one of the old timers)CarterRoafShieldsCurtis Martin

Not hall worthy?One of the top four players in sacks isn't HoF worthy?

 

[dgreen]

I certainly think it is arguable that Dawson is in the top 10, hard to say how high he should rank.

If it is true that Dawson is a top 10 center, then we know that the top 10 centers of all time who are eligible for HOF induction are not in the HOF. That must also be true of safety, since only 9 safeties are inducted (counting Lott and Renfro as safeties and Woodson as CB). Not sure about other positions.Not including specialists, what eligible players who are not in the HOF were top 10 at their positions?

I don't like this tangent. If a C plays 10 years, then we're talking maybe 7 best of during those eras.

Wat?

 

[Mentos]

He also likes Bettis over Martin. Besides winning a Super Bowl ring AS A BACKUP, Bettis has nothing over Martin. Check the stats. Check the film.

I like Martin better than Bettis, but the bolded statement is not true. Consider:All Pro selections (AP):

Bettis: 2 1st team, 1 2nd team

Martin: 1 1st team, 2 2nd team

Pro Bowls:

Bettis: 6

Martin: 5

Other Honors:

Bettis: 1993 NFL AP Offensive Rookie of the Year, 1996 NFL AP Comeback Player of the Year, 2001 NFL Walter Payton Man of the Year

Martin: 1995 NFL AP Offensive Rookie of the Year

Rushing TDs:

Bettis: 91

Martin: 90

Passing TDs:

Bettis: 3

Martin: 2

These are all small edges, but they are edges for Bettis nonetheless, to go along with the ring advantage.

I am not certain you have the correct All-Pro data. I have had this Martin-Bettis debate on other sites and incorrect pro-Bettis All-Pro data is often cited. I will post the actual info when I can. Right now I am posting from a phone and don't have my All-Pro stuff handy.I want you to look at games played and still tell me that Bettis actually has a TD edge. Yeah, he has a 91 to 90 edge in rushing TDs but Martin took less games to reach 90 than did Bettis. And Bettis was known as a great goal line runner!

That comeback award is not really that much of a positive. Bettis won it because he was putrid the prior year. Bettis had an awful season in his prime. Martin's only bad season was his final one when he played hurt for a bad team.

 

[az_prof]

I think Shields is getting a little too much love here. Consider these guards:Matthews: 14 seasons, 7 1st team All Pro selections, 3 2nd team All Pro selections, 14 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsMcDaniel: 14 seasons, 7 1st team All Pro selections, 2 2nd team All Pro selections, 12 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsAllen: 14 seasons, 6 1st team All Pro selections, 1 2nd team All Pro selection, 11 Pro Bowl selections, 1 ringFaneca: 13 seasons, 6 1st team All Pro selections, 2 2nd team All Pro selections, 9 Pro Bowl selections, 1 ringHutchinson: 11 seasons, 5 1st team All Pro selections, 2 2nd team All Pro selections, 7 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsShields: 14 seasons, 2 1st team All Pro selections, 4 2nd team All Pro selections, 12 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsAnd consider these other OL contemporariesawson: 13 seasons, 6 1st team All Pro selections, 0 2nd team All Pro selections, 7 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsOgden: 12 seasons, 4 1st team All Pro selections, 5 2nd team All Pro selections, 11 Pro Bowl selections, 1 ringRoaf: 13 seasons, 3 1st team All Pro selections, 6 2nd team All Pro selections, 11 Pro Bowl selections, 0 ringsWalter Jones: 12 seasons, 4 1st team All Pro selections, 2 2nd team All Pro selections, 9 Pro Bowl selections, 1 ringPace: 13 seasons, 3 1st team All Pro selections, 1 2nd team All Pro selection, 7 Pro Bowl selections, 1 ringThere are some other relevant factors, like blocking for top offenses, MVPs, and 2000 yard seasons.Don't get me wrong, I think Shields will ultimately make it, and he should IMO. However, I think most of the other OL identified here, maybe all of them, are more deserving, including all of the other guards. In particular, I think it is fairly clear that both Dawson and Roaf are more deserving, which is enough IMO for Shields to wait another year.All that said, I think it is difficult to effectively compare offensive linemen. If there are counterpoints that help Shields, I'm interested in seeing them.

This is some good data. I would maybe change my rankings then, which included Shields, and swap him out for Dawson.

 

[az_prof]

Why no love for Chris Doleman?

Viking fan who loved Doleman but I am not sure he is hallworthy. Chris Carter is much more deserving. And I agree with previous poster that there are several OL types who deserve recognition this year--Roaf and Shields. I also like Curtis Martin, but don't know if this is his year. I don't think Parcels is a first ballot guy, but he will probably get it anyway. Seems like HC and owners who won a SB are automatics.Mine:Jack Butler (because you have to have one of the old timers)CarterRoafShieldsCurtis Martin

Not hall worthy?One of the top four players in sacks isn't HoF worthy?

That stat is just not very meaningful.

 

[Bri]

Why no love for Chris Doleman?

Viking fan who loved Doleman but I am not sure he is hallworthy. (snip)

Not hall worthy?One of the top four players in sacks isn't HoF worthy?

To me, he didn't seem as good as his contemporaries-Taylor, Bruce Smith, and Reggie White. I think Strahan was better too.I am not certain but soooo think it's him that has been the topic of two points-that DEs make too quick a jump and get out of position for running playsthat he was part of the outcry about tackle stats being subjective and teams just so overdoing it and making them bogus. At PFR, he's got 100+ one year, then 64, 68, and 26(looks like an injury year w 26) There's a good drop down there and he never crossed 50 the rest of his career...six more years. The guys I mentioned split the field in half. Teams did not run to that side and if they had to pass to that side it was real quick. Doleman didn't do that IMO. LT was quite possibly the most dominating football player ever. He created a blueprint that younger players wanted to be and DCs wanted to have. This supreme rushing OLB that could line up anywhere. Many of these "next LT" players turned out to be DEs. I thought there were plenty of flash in the pan type guys after LT that couldn't sustain a long career or do half of what LT did, nevertheless they'd put up an impressive year here N there. I think even some of them were better than Doleman for a year. Maybe not the next year or the year before, but for one season. I don't believe he belongs in the HOF. I do believe he was better than Charles Haley who many do seem to think belongs. For me, Haley got to play on teams with some great offenses. They gave him these big leads where he could just pin his ears back and go after the QB play after play. I don't remember him doing well against the run, nor playing noteworthy well in any close+big games. He was in a great spot to simply go after the QB so often, that's all.I'll want Doleman in if Haley goes, but I'm fine with only the initial four.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I certainly think it is arguable that Dawson is in the top 10, hard to say how high he should rank.

If it is true that Dawson is a top 10 center, then we know that the top 10 centers of all time who are eligible for HOF induction are not in the HOF. That must also be true of safety, since only 9 safeties are inducted (counting Lott and Renfro as safeties and Woodson as CB). Not sure about other positions.Not including specialists, what eligible players who are not in the HOF were top 10 at their positions?

:coughcoughTaskerSTcoughcough:

 

[AmosMoses]

Why no love for Chris Doleman?

Viking fan who loved Doleman but I am not sure he is hallworthy. (snip)

Not hall worthy?One of the top four players in sacks isn't HoF worthy?

To me, he didn't seem as good as his contemporaries-Taylor, Bruce Smith, and Reggie White. I think Strahan was better too.I am not certain but soooo think it's him that has been the topic of two points-that DEs make too quick a jump and get out of position for running playsthat he was part of the outcry about tackle stats being subjective and teams just so overdoing it and making them bogus. At PFR, he's got 100+ one year, then 64, 68, and 26(looks like an injury year w 26) There's a good drop down there and he never crossed 50 the rest of his career...six more years. The guys I mentioned split the field in half. Teams did not run to that side and if they had to pass to that side it was real quick. Doleman didn't do that IMO. LT was quite possibly the most dominating football player ever. He created a blueprint that younger players wanted to be and DCs wanted to have. This supreme rushing OLB that could line up anywhere. Many of these "next LT" players turned out to be DEs. I thought there were plenty of flash in the pan type guys after LT that couldn't sustain a long career or do half of what LT did, nevertheless they'd put up an impressive year here N there. I think even some of them were better than Doleman for a year. Maybe not the next year or the year before, but for one season. I don't believe he belongs in the HOF. I do believe he was better than Charles Haley who many do seem to think belongs. For me, Haley got to play on teams with some great offenses. They gave him these big leads where he could just pin his ears back and go after the QB play after play. I don't remember him doing well against the run, nor playing noteworthy well in any close+big games. He was in a great spot to simply go after the QB so often, that's all.I'll want Doleman in if Haley goes, but I'm fine with only the initial four.

How do you consider Strahan better than Doleman? Had Favre not given him that record, would Strahan be given as much credit as he is? They played the same number of years, yet Doleman exceeds him in sacks by 9 and forced fumbles by 20(!), INTs by 4. Do all of those playmaking statistics really get negated by his low tackle (the least dependable statistic in the NFL) values? I am too young to have seen his entire career live. So maybe you can fill me in. Where does Jason Taylor weigh in here? He seems to have had a very close career to Doleman.

 

[Tau837]

How do you consider Strahan better than Doleman? Had Favre not given him that record, would Strahan be given as much credit as he is? They played the same number of years, yet Doleman exceeds him in sacks by 9 and forced fumbles by 20(!), INTs by 4. Do all of those playmaking statistics really get negated by his low tackle (the least dependable statistic in the NFL) values? I am too young to have seen his entire career live. So maybe you can fill me in. Where does Jason Taylor weigh in here? He seems to have had a very close career to Doleman.

Strahan:1 DPOY4 1st team All Pro selections2 2nd team All Pro selections2000s All Decade team2 Super Bowls, 1 ringSingle season sack record2 Seasons as sack leader4 Seasons in top 3 in sacksDoleman:0 DPOY2 1st team All Pro selections2 2nd team All Pro selections1990s All Decade team0 Super Bowls, 0 ring1 Season as sack leader2 Seasons in top 3 in sacksAs good as Doleman is, Strahan is clearly more accomplished than Doleman.With regard to the statistics you posted, you failed to note that Doleman started 8 more games and played 16 more games; that is certainly a factor. And it is my impression that Strahan was much better against the run, but I don't know of any way to verify that.

 

[Bri]

Why no love for Chris Doleman?

Viking fan who loved Doleman but I am not sure he is hallworthy. (snip)

Not hall worthy?One of the top four players in sacks isn't HoF worthy?

To me, he didn't seem as good as his contemporaries-Taylor, Bruce Smith, and Reggie White. I think Strahan was better too.I am not certain but soooo think it's him that has been the topic of two points-that DEs make too quick a jump and get out of position for running playsthat he was part of the outcry about tackle stats being subjective and teams just so overdoing it and making them bogus. At PFR, he's got 100+ one year, then 64, 68, and 26(looks like an injury year w 26) There's a good drop down there and he never crossed 50 the rest of his career...six more years. The guys I mentioned split the field in half. Teams did not run to that side and if they had to pass to that side it was real quick. Doleman didn't do that IMO. LT was quite possibly the most dominating football player ever. He created a blueprint that younger players wanted to be and DCs wanted to have. This supreme rushing OLB that could line up anywhere. Many of these "next LT" players turned out to be DEs. I thought there were plenty of flash in the pan type guys after LT that couldn't sustain a long career or do half of what LT did, nevertheless they'd put up an impressive year here N there. I think even some of them were better than Doleman for a year. Maybe not the next year or the year before, but for one season. I don't believe he belongs in the HOF. I do believe he was better than Charles Haley who many do seem to think belongs. For me, Haley got to play on teams with some great offenses. They gave him these big leads where he could just pin his ears back and go after the QB play after play. I don't remember him doing well against the run, nor playing noteworthy well in any close+big games. He was in a great spot to simply go after the QB so often, that's all.I'll want Doleman in if Haley goes, but I'm fine with only the initial four.

How do you consider Strahan better than Doleman? Had Favre not given him that record, would Strahan be given as much credit as he is? They played the same number of years, yet Doleman exceeds him in sacks by 9 and forced fumbles by 20(!), INTs by 4. Do all of those playmaking statistics really get negated by his low tackle (the least dependable statistic in the NFL) values? I am too young to have seen his entire career live. So maybe you can fill me in. Where does Jason Taylor weigh in here? He seems to have had a very close career to Doleman.

I did try to explain it above.You can google and find a quote by Bellichick where he watched an entire game and not one play went Strahan's side. (He was actually speaking of years ago and how the Giants were so much better on the DL at the time, but...)There have been few total package DEs like him. I don't think a defender can get a bigger compliment(albeit inadvertent) than the offense choosing not to go his way. For FF we focus on CBs in a similar regard, partly because it's FF but also because few DEs have that affect. LT was beyond ridiculous. It wasn't just that teams didn't go his way, but he actually caught famous RBs, with famous speed, from behind AT the line of scrimmage. Jason Taylor is probably similar to Doleman IMO. He did not cut the field in half.

 

[Bri]

How do you consider Strahan better than Doleman? Had Favre not given him that record, would Strahan be given as much credit as he is? They played the same number of years, yet Doleman exceeds him in sacks by 9 and forced fumbles by 20(!), INTs by 4. Do all of those playmaking statistics really get negated by his low tackle (the least dependable statistic in the NFL) values? I am too young to have seen his entire career live. So maybe you can fill me in. Where does Jason Taylor weigh in here? He seems to have had a very close career to Doleman.

Strahan:1 DPOY4 1st team All Pro selections2 2nd team All Pro selections2000s All Decade team2 Super Bowls, 1 ringSingle season sack record2 Seasons as sack leader4 Seasons in top 3 in sacksDoleman:0 DPOY2 1st team All Pro selections2 2nd team All Pro selections1990s All Decade team0 Super Bowls, 0 ring1 Season as sack leader2 Seasons in top 3 in sacksAs good as Doleman is, Strahan is clearly more accomplished than Doleman.With regard to the statistics you posted, you failed to note that Doleman started 8 more games and played 16 more games; that is certainly a factor. And it is my impression that Strahan was much better against the run, but I don't know of any way to verify that.

I gotta get to bed. If you look those up, I think you'll find Strahan replacing Doleman on the All Pro teams and a clear trend.

 

[AmosMoses]

How do you consider Strahan better than Doleman? Had Favre not given him that record, would Strahan be given as much credit as he is? They played the same number of years, yet Doleman exceeds him in sacks by 9 and forced fumbles by 20(!), INTs by 4. Do all of those playmaking statistics really get negated by his low tackle (the least dependable statistic in the NFL) values? I am too young to have seen his entire career live. So maybe you can fill me in. Where does Jason Taylor weigh in here? He seems to have had a very close career to Doleman.

Strahan:1 DPOY4 1st team All Pro selections2 2nd team All Pro selections2000s All Decade team2 Super Bowls, 1 ringSingle season sack record2 Seasons as sack leader4 Seasons in top 3 in sacksDoleman:0 DPOY2 1st team All Pro selections2 2nd team All Pro selections1990s All Decade team0 Super Bowls, 0 ring1 Season as sack leader2 Seasons in top 3 in sacksAs good as Doleman is, Strahan is clearly more accomplished than Doleman.With regard to the statistics you posted, you failed to note that Doleman started 8 more games and played 16 more games; that is certainly a factor. And it is my impression that Strahan was much better against the run, but I don't know of any way to verify that.

I'm sure Strahan was a better run defender than Doleman.I don't buy that DPOY, it was given to him because of the sack record, which we know was BS anyway. Ray Lewis had a better season that year than when he won it, but he didn't get it.Those are really the only disagreements I have. It's clear that you listed some very different reasons for Strahan than I did.

 

[wildbill]

PFT says Shields, DeBartolo, Bettis, Brown and Greene did not make the cut from fifteen to ten.

That leaves

Cris Carter

Dermontti Dawson

Chris Doleman

Charles Haley

Cortez Kennedy

Curtis Martin

Bill Parcells

Andre Reed

Willie Roaf

Aeneas Williams

 

[hammerva]

And Cris Carter and Andre Reed gets ####ed again. Starting to become a running joke that not only aren't they inducted they can't sniff the top 5

Steelers fans better look at this when Hines Ward retires. The wait for him is going to be a long one

 

[J-Dawg]

Cris Carter got robbed as far as I'm concerned, stunned that he didn't get in.

Super excited for Cortez Kennedy though who I was able to watch a lot during his career. I honestly didn't expect him to make it, glad to be proved wrong.

 

[wildbill]

Butler, Dawson, Doleman, Kennedy, Martin, Roaf are Hall of Famers

Six new members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame were selected today in Indianapolis: Jack Butler, Dermontti Dawson, Chris Doleman, Cortez Kennedy, Curtis Martin and Willie Roaf.

What will it take for Cris Carter to make it into the Hall of Fame?

 

[cobalt_27]

And Cris Carter and Andre Reed gets ####ed again. Starting to become a running joke that not only aren't they inducted they can't sniff the top 5Steelers fans better look at this when Hines Ward retires. The wait for him is going to be a long one

Never is a long time, indeed.

 

[Txns8]

Butler, Dawson, Doleman, Kennedy, Martin, Roaf are Hall of Famers

Six new members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame were selected today in Indianapolis: Jack Butler, Dermontti Dawson, Chris Doleman, Cortez Kennedy, Curtis Martin and Willie Roaf.

What will it take for Cris Carter to make it into the Hall of Fame?

Totally baffling. The only negative was no Super Bowls, but he was the best at his position when he played. I don't understand why he's not in, but at least he made it to the final 10 this year.

 

[dcgangstas]

I'm happy that Dermontii Dawson finally got his due. Other than Dwight Stephenson, I think he's the best center that I've ever seen. And this is coming from a Raider fan that watched Jim Otto play.

Willie Roaf was a great, great player. Truly HOF worthy. Surprised that Strahan didn't get in before Chris Doleman.

It's ridiculous that Cris Carter didn't get in. Honestly, I thought he should have gotten in before Art Monk got in, though I know that there was a huge push from John Clayton and others to get Monk in. Only going to get harder for Carter with Isaac Bruce and Marvin Harrison fast approaching HOF eligiblity.

 

[CalBear]

And Cris Carter and Andre Reed gets ####ed again. Starting to become a running joke that not only aren't they inducted they can't sniff the top 5Steelers fans better look at this when Hines Ward retires. The wait for him is going to be a long one

Andre Reed has no place in the Hall. Carter will get in.

 

[AmosMoses]

And Cris Carter and Andre Reed gets ####ed again. Starting to become a running joke that not only aren't they inducted they can't sniff the top 5Steelers fans better look at this when Hines Ward retires. The wait for him is going to be a long one

Andre Reed has no place in the Hall. Carter will get in.

Dont' be dumb. EVERYONE has a place in the hall. Even your mom.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Ridiculous. If Harrison or Bruce go in before Carter and Reed, they might as well shut the HOF down. The current electors are making themselves look like fools.

 

[AmosMoses]

Ridiculous. If Harrison or Bruce go in before Carter and Reed, they might as well shut the HOF down. The current electors are making themselves look like fools.

Shhhh. I have a feeling next year we are going to be reading this:GroveDiesel - HOF

 

[CalBear]

Ridiculous. If Harrison or Bruce go in before Carter and Reed, they might as well shut the HOF down. The current electors are making themselves look like fools.

Bruce is going to have problems similar to Carter, in that there were a lot of years when he wasn't clearly the best WR on his own team. He does have a Super Bowl, but I think Carter gets in before Bruce.If Carter hasn't made it by the time Harrison is eligible, Harrison will deservedly be selected before Carter. But I think Carter will be in before then.

 

[Steed]

Butler, Dawson, Doleman, Kennedy, Martin, Roaf are Hall of Famers

Six new members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame were selected today in Indianapolis: Jack Butler, Dermontti Dawson, Chris Doleman, Cortez Kennedy, Curtis Martin and Willie Roaf.

What will it take for Cris Carter to make it into the Hall of Fame?

Being an arrogant know-it-all that actually doesn't know much doesn't help him. The biggest travesty is Charles Haley not getting in. Sure he used to chase the little white reporters around the locker room with his python hanging out, but there was few better DEs than him. He was the defensive catalyst for champions.

 

[cobalt_27]

Ridiculous. If Harrison or Bruce go in before Carter and Reed, they might as well shut the HOF down. The current electors are making themselves look like fools.

Who would pay a dime to get into Canton to see the exhibits of mediocrity cloaked as greatness The pro HOF is a joke. If you had a pulse, you get in.

 

[Mentos]

I'm happy that Dermontii Dawson finally got his due. Other than Dwight Stephenson, I think he's the best center that I've ever seen. And this is coming from a Raider fan that watched Jim Otto play. Willie Roaf was a great, great player. Truly HOF worthy. Surprised that Strahan didn't get in before Chris Doleman. It's ridiculous that Cris Carter didn't get in. Honestly, I thought he should have gotten in before Art Monk got in, though I know that there was a huge push from John Clayton and others to get Monk in. Only going to get harder for Carter with Isaac Bruce and Marvin Harrison fast approaching HOF eligiblity.

Strahan will not be eligible till next year.

 

[Mentos]

Ridiculous. If Harrison or Bruce go in before Carter and Reed, they might as well shut the HOF down. The current electors are making themselves look like fools.

Who would pay a dime to get into Canton to see the exhibits of mediocrity cloaked as greatness The pro HOF is a joke. If you had a pulse, you get in.

Hornung, Swann, Millner, Woijiecowicz (spelling could be off there, but heck with it, I am not getting off the couch to look it up), Slater and Darrell Green are a few Hall members who I do not believe were consistently excellent but every Hall of Fame has guys like that. Nobody in the PFHOF was mediocre. What you wrote is just silly.

 

[AmosMoses]

Ridiculous. If Harrison or Bruce go in before Carter and Reed, they might as well shut the HOF down. The current electors are making themselves look like fools.

Who would pay a dime to get into Canton to see the exhibits of mediocrity cloaked as greatness The pro HOF is a joke. If you had a pulse, you get in.

Well, you better pay to get in. How else will they afford to pay for the expansion of the building to let in the rest of the league if people don't pay to expand it?

 

[mad sweeney]

Cris Carter got robbed as far as I'm concerned, stunned that he didn't get in.

Super excited for Cortez Kennedy though who I was able to watch a lot during his career. I honestly didn't expect him to make it, glad to be proved wrong.

After last year I didn't expect him to ever get in. There was so little exposure for Seattle back then. When the induction rolls around, I think a lot of people are going to be shocked when they see the footage of him crashing through double teams nearly every play. One of the first 300+lb speedy DLs. First jersey I ever bought as well. Congrats to Cortez the King on being only the 2nd Seahawk in Canton (until Big Walt gets in in four years).

BTW, whoever listed OT stats in an earlier post had Jones listed as having 1 ring. I wish it were true.

 

[CalBear]

Ridiculous. If Harrison or Bruce go in before Carter and Reed, they might as well shut the HOF down. The current electors are making themselves look like fools.

Who would pay a dime to get into Canton to see the exhibits of mediocrity cloaked as greatness The pro HOF is a joke. If you had a pulse, you get in.

By what measure do you call Harrison mediocre? 8 Pro Bowls, 3 first-team All-Pros. Led the league in receiving yards twice, #2 twice. Still holds the NFL season record for receptions, and the #4 and #7 yardage seasons (only player with two seasons in the top 10 ever--not even Rice has that).

 

[cobalt_27]

Ridiculous. If Harrison or Bruce go in before Carter and Reed, they might as well shut the HOF down. The current electors are making themselves look like fools.

Who would pay a dime to get into Canton to see the exhibits of mediocrity cloaked as greatness The pro HOF is a joke. If you had a pulse, you get in.

By what measure do you call Harrison mediocre? 8 Pro Bowls, 3 first-team All-Pros. Led the league in receiving yards twice, #2 twice. Still holds the NFL season record for receptions, and the #4 and #7 yardage seasons (only player with two seasons in the top 10 ever--not even Rice has that).

I was not responding to Harrison. He was not mediocre at all. Certainly a HOFer on the field.Was speaking more generally to what buffoons the writers are in the selection process.

 

[cobalt_27]

Ridiculous. If Harrison or Bruce go in before Carter and Reed, they might as well shut the HOF down. The current electors are making themselves look like fools.

Who would pay a dime to get into Canton to see the exhibits of mediocrity cloaked as greatness The pro HOF is a joke. If you had a pulse, you get in.

Hornung, Swann, Millner, Woijiecowicz (spelling could be off there, but heck with it, I am not getting off the couch to look it up), Slater and Darrell Green are a few Hall members who I do not believe were consistently excellent but every Hall of Fame has guys like that. Nobody in the PFHOF was mediocre. What you wrote is just silly.

You're right. The Hall has a few mediocre players and a lot of very good players who were not great and/or distinguished. Off the top of my head...

Mediocre

Joe Namath.

Bob Griese.

John Riggins.

Larry Csonka.



Very Good

Lynn Swann

Art Monk.

Franco Harris.

Curtis Martin.

To name a few.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

My opinion of the last 10 guys who didn't get in:

Should be in:

Shields

Carter

Haley

Parcells

Borderline:

Bettis

DeBartolo

Reed

Not Deserving:

Brown

Green

Williams

I can see the sentiment that Parcells may not be done. But I'd put Martin in Borderline and Doleman in Should Be In. Would have voted for Carter and Shields over Doleman and Martin this year though. From the small number of comments coming out about the meeting yesterday, it sounded like the WR hang up was Carter or Reed. I think both may get in some day, but I would think Brown might be in trouble.

 

[Tau837]

My opinion of the last 10 guys who didn't get in:Should be in:ShieldsCarterHaleyParcellsBorderline:BettisDeBartoloReedNot Deserving:BrownGreenWilliamsI can see the sentiment that Parcells may not be done. But I'd put Martin in Borderline and Doleman in Should Be In. Would have voted for Carter and Shields over Doleman and Martin this year though. From the small number of comments coming out about the meeting yesterday, it sounded like the WR hang up was Carter or Reed. I think both may get in some day, but I would think Brown might be in trouble.

To say Tim Brown and Aeneas Williams are not deserving is ridiculous. Both are more deserving than most of the other names listed.

 

[AmosMoses]

My opinion of the last 10 guys who didn't get in:Should be in:ShieldsCarterHaleyParcellsBorderline:BettisDeBartoloReedNot Deserving:BrownGreenWilliamsI can see the sentiment that Parcells may not be done. But I'd put Martin in Borderline and Doleman in Should Be In. Would have voted for Carter and Shields over Doleman and Martin this year though. From the small number of comments coming out about the meeting yesterday, it sounded like the WR hang up was Carter or Reed. I think both may get in some day, but I would think Brown might be in trouble.

To say Tim Brown and Aeneas Williams are not deserving is ridiculous. Both are more deserving than most of the other names listed.

Sorry, ConstruxboyzOMG has never heard of you. Pls delete post.