Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (3 Viewers)

[TobiasFunke]

That's not the point.  The owners and league execs are.  They always will act in their self interest, and that's money.  So yeah, they do care when people don't show up to a game or quit watching because it's going to eventually come out of their pocket.

I'm not sure how much of it is really about the protests, though. It's been a rough couple of years for the NFL even before this. The CTE stuff is a much bigger problem.  This season the league's biggest and most recognizable star is over 40 and the guys you'd probably rank #2 and #3 are both out for the season with injuries. The next generation of QBs looks kinda promising but those guys haven't done enough to get recognition from casual fans yet. The Chargers situation is a total disaster that basically leaves the league down an entire fan base and also has to be kind of unsettling for fans of other teams in secondary markets. Not good times

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I'm not sure how much of it is really about the protests, though. It's been a rough couple of years for the NFL even before this. The CTE stuff is a much bigger problem.  This season the league's biggest and most recognizable star is over 40 and the guys you'd probably rank #2 and #3 are both out for the season with injuries. The next generation of QBs looks kinda promising but those guys haven't done enough to get recognition from casual fans yet. The Chargers situation is a total disaster that basically leaves the league down an entire fan base and also has to be kind of unsettling for fans of other teams in secondary markets. Not good times

I think the biggest factor is that a lot of people have become loathe to spend over three hours watching a single game (with seemingly an hour of it being commercial breaks) live or on TV when ample stats and highlights from every game are so freely and immediately available on every device.

Fantasy football has done a lot to broaden the NFL's appeal in recent years, but I think it's also gotten people used to paying attention to league-wide action on their phones rather than settling in to spend half a day watching just 1/16 of the week's action on a TV broadcast.

 

[Limp Ditka]

I think his point was that some like to use veterans as the main defense for why it's wrong, saying that they are offended but just like the general public not everyone of them is offended, so why specifically use them to make your argument stronger?  Their opinions seem to be just the same and as varied as every other person.

I'm guessing some would say that a veteran's opinion of the subject has more weight and I would agree but it works both ways.  The opinion of a veteran who is not offended has as much weight as the opinion of one who is offended.

I honestly feel that I understand why military personal, active and veterans alike, feel so strongly about the flag and the anthem. Its because they're conditioned too. I think that's the case because its much easier to rally the troops with the imagery of a flag and/or the sounds of an anthem than it is to sit them down and read the US Constitution. And while I respect their, and anyone else's, loyalty to those things, I do find that loyalty misguided when they put them in front of the rights granted to the citizens of this country. 

Now, as I've stated before, in my opinion the pecking order here is US Constitution >>> Flag >>>> Anthem. Its also in my opinion that there is purposely no mention of a flag or an anthem in the US Constitution.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I think the biggest factor is that a lot of people have become loathe to spend over three hours watching a single game (with seemingly an hour of it being commercial breaks) live or on TV when ample stats and highlights from every game are so freely and immediately available on every device.

Fantasy football has done a lot to broaden the NFL's appeal in recent years, but I think it's also gotten people used to paying attention to league-wide action on their phones rather than settling in to spend half a day watching just 1/16 of the week's action on a TV broadcast.

Good point. Red Zone channel is also more widely available these days, and I don't think that shows up in ratings.

 

[Hawkeye21]

I honestly feel that I understand why military personal, active and veterans alike, feel so strongly about the flag and the anthem. Its because they're conditioned too. I think that's the case because its much easier to rally the troops with the imagery of a flag and/or the sounds of an anthem than it is to sit them down and read the US Constitution. And while I respect their, and anyone else's, loyalty to those things, I do find that loyalty misguided when they put them in front of the rights granted to the citizens of this country. 

Now, as I've stated before, in my opinion the pecking order here is US Constitution >>> Flag >>>> Anthem. Its also in my opinion that there is purposely no mention of a flag or an anthem in the US Constitution.

I agree with what you said.  I feel that the flag and anthem have almost become too important.  I hate to say that because I still think they are very important but it's as if they have gained priority over everything else.  I feel some need to put things in perspective a little more.

 

[Shula-holic]

But that is the point.  If they want to continue making as much money as possible they will adapt to what's going on.  It's all part of running a business and they know this.  It's not possible to maintain the success they were having.  At some point it has to level off and usually if declines for a certain amount of time until changes are made.

I'm not sure I understand the argument.  Their adapting is trying to find a way out of this while alienating as few customers as they can.  If you run a business and want to accept a leveling off or decline in business I'd argue you aren't a very good businessman.  I can't think of one NFL owner who would be ok with a leveling off or a decline in revenue.  Most people I know who run a business lose sleep at night when there is a decline in business.   You don't just accept it or say oh well, you do what you can to mitigate or fix it.  That's why you see Goodell come out and say we want to honor the flag and we feel all should stand, yet leaving some wiggle room for some players in this.  The league isn't really all that interested in fixing any social issue, for God's sake we have people who beat the hell out of women playing every Sunday.  They see the potential financial fallout and are going to say or take whatever action needed to try and stop it.

 

[Hawkeye21]

I'm not sure I understand the argument.  Their adapting is trying to find a way out of this while alienating as few customers as they can.  If you run a business and want to accept a leveling off or decline in business I'd argue you aren't a very good businessman.  I can't think of one NFL owner who would be ok with a leveling off or a decline in revenue.  Most people I know who run a business lose sleep at night when there is a decline in business.   You don't just accept it or say oh well, you do what you can to mitigate or fix it.  That's why you see Goodell come out and say we want to honor the flag and we feel all should stand, yet leaving some wiggle room for some players in this.  The league isn't really all that interested in fixing any social issue, for God's sake we have people who beat the hell out of women playing every Sunday.  They see the potential financial fallout and are going to say or take whatever action needed to try and stop it.

You are actually explaining my point.  I said that a business must make changes and adapt.  When did I say they should accept it?  There are some things that businesses can't avoid so they must make changes in order to adapt and remain profitable.

Right now they have a major conflict.  They are losing viewers due to many factors and now they are losing the power they have had over the players.  They can not afford to lose their players yet they can not lose all of their viewers.  They are going to have to adapt to find new ways to keep viewers along with making their players happy.

 

[tonydead]

I think the biggest factor is that a lot of people have become loathe to spend over three hours watching a single game (with seemingly an hour of it being commercial breaks) live or on TV when ample stats and highlights from every game are so freely and immediately available on every device.

Fantasy football has done a lot to broaden the NFL's appeal in recent years, but I think it's also gotten people used to paying attention to league-wide action on their phones rather than settling in to spend half a day watching just 1/16 of the week's action on a TV broadcast.

I also thinks its going to be difficult to monopolize it anymore when the Directv contract expires with all the other streaming options competing in the television market now.

Not so sure the Thursday Night and London experiments are working out either.

 

[Shula-holic]

I'm not sure how much of it is really about the protests, though. It's been a rough couple of years for the NFL even before this. The CTE stuff is a much bigger problem.  This season the league's biggest and most recognizable star is over 40 and the guys you'd probably rank #2 and #3 are both out for the season with injuries. The next generation of QBs looks kinda promising but those guys haven't done enough to get recognition from casual fans yet. The Chargers situation is a total disaster that basically leaves the league down an entire fan base and also has to be kind of unsettling for fans of other teams in secondary markets. Not good times

No, you're right it's not totally about the protests.  There is an issue with how priced out of the market some fans are.  I could go into a lot of details, and you mentioned the Chargers which we could agree on, but one franchise as another example is the Atlanta Falcons.  Atlanta isn't the wealthiest of the NFL markets, yet with the new stadium not only did their prices go up for tickets, you had to buy PSL's for $500-$55,000 just to buy the right to keep your seats.  A lot of fans left.  Some of the void was filled with corporate folks, but not entirely.  They promised all the PSL holders they'd be sold out by opening day, a promise that keeps getting pushed back.  You'll see fewer and fewer kids go to the games now as families can't afford to go.  That very well may lead to a slow "leak" of fan support and eventual decline in the numbers of NFL fans.  However, I think the more sudden declines this year are largely related to the other issue. 

 

[Shula-holic]

You are actually explaining my point.  I said that a business must make changes and adapt.  When did I say they should accept it?  There are some things that businesses can't avoid so they must make changes in order to adapt and remain profitable.

Right now they have a major conflict.  They are losing viewers due to many factors and now they are losing the power they have had over the players.  They can not afford to lose their players yet they can not lose all of their viewers.  They are going to have to adapt to find new ways to keep viewers along with making their players happy.

But that is the point.  If they want to continue making as much money as possible they will adapt to what's going on.  It's all part of running a business and they know this.  It's not possible to maintain the success they were having.  At some point it has to level off and usually if declines for a certain amount of time until changes are made.

Not that it's important, but the bolded is what I was referring to.  I don't understand why this would be impossible.  Most businesses who are successful long term do maintain success over long periods.  They are proactive and they don't accept waiting for declines to make a change.  There's no doubt the NFL is in a bad spot, but that's what happens when you are trying to make a change after a decline has occurred.  As was stated earlier, it's not just this one issue. but this one right now is the raging fire they must put out before it gets even worse.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Not that it's important, but the bolded is what I was referring to.  I don't understand why this would be impossible.  Most businesses who are successful long term do maintain success over long periods.  They are proactive and they don't accept waiting for declines to make a change.  There's no doubt the NFL is in a bad spot, but that's what happens when you are trying to make a change after a decline has occurred.  As was stated earlier, it's not just this one issue. but this one right now is the raging fire they must put out before it gets even worse.

Maintaining that amount of increase year after year seems impossible.  At some point things level off or drop.

I feel like some think that the NFL is now losing money, they are not.  They are still incredibly profitable and will remain that way.  Just because they are making less profit does not mean they are failing.  A failing business is one that does not make profit.

 

[tonydead]

Maintaining that amount of increase year after year seems impossible.  At some point things level off or drop.

Seems?  There is going to be variance in most things, but, to make it a rule that all things level or drop off is not correct.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Seems?  There is going to be variance in most things, but, to make it a rule that all things level or drop off is not correct.

Rule?  I didn't say it was a rule, more like it just be the nature of things.  I'm not sure I can think of a business that was able to increase their profit by the same margin year after year for decades.

 

[squistion]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/49ers-owner-jed-york-nfl-national-anthem-policy-colin-kaepernick/kfx2o3b73ral1sfel5q87o0db

49ers' Jed York is voice of reason among NFL owners on protests, Kaepernick

Even in the moment, Jed York felt and sounded like the anti-Jerry Jones and the anti-Roger Goodell. Two days after the 49ers owner spoke his mind to reporters at the NFL owners-players meeting over protests, it seems even more so … especially once Goodell spoke and Jones notably did not.

York sounded as if he did not even belong at the same meeting or in the same group. So much talk about “socioeconomic (and) racial injustices," and respect for rights and freedoms, and partnerships with players and sacrificing the bottom line and (blasphemy!) how "courageous" Colin Kaepernick is.

He sounded like a voice of reason, possibly the voice of reason at a volatile time in NFL history.

"We need to take the message away from, 'Colin Kaepernick took a knee and that’s disrespectful to the flag,'" York said Tuesday in some of the more pointed remarks of a 20-minute session. "Now our players are protesting to get awareness. That's why they protested. They have awareness — when the president is tweeting about you, when you have the vice-president making comments, that's awareness.

"There's never been greater awareness for these issues than today, when you have, literally, 32 owners and the NFL commissioner coming together and saying, 'Alright how do we work on this, how do we move forward?' You have the awareness."

 

[Da Guru]

I think the biggest factor is that a lot of people have become loathe to spend over three hours watching a single game (with seemingly an hour of it being commercial breaks) live or on TV when ample stats and highlights from every game are so freely and immediately available on every device.

Fantasy football has done a lot to broaden the NFL's appeal in recent years, but I think it's also gotten people used to paying attention to league-wide action on their phones rather than settling in to spend half a day watching just 1/16 of the week's action on a TV broadcast.

Same reason golf is declining. People do not want to spend 5 hours playing 18 holes anymore. 

For me to go to a Lion game if I am not tailgating is a 6-7 hour ordeal.  I have to leave around 11 for a 1pm game.  Traffic will back up about 5 miles from Ford Field.  By the time I park and get in is 12:30 12:45.  Games last until 4:30 now.  Get out and fight the traffic to get home by 5:30-6.    This is when I am not tailgating..if tailgating I get there around 9-10am.  Plus being at the games with all the TV timeouts is annoying..you really don`t notice those at home because you will get up and do something.

I have not watched a full game this year on TV.  I watch football now like I do baseball.  The game will be on but I will always be doing something else, then if I hear a big play I come in and check it out.  I will watch the last 10-12 minutes if the game is close.  Otherwise it is easier just to check updates on my phone.

 

[tonydead]

Rule?  I didn't say it was a rule, more like it just be the nature of things.  I'm not sure I can think of a business that was able to increase their profit by the same margin year after year for decades.

Nature of things <> Rule.  Plenty of business increase their profit margin for decades, the company I work for has been doing it for over 200 years.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Nature of things <> Rule.  Plenty of business increase their profit margin for decades, the company I work for has been doing it for over 200 years.

That's impressive.  They've never had a drop off in over 200 years?  They weren't even affected by the recession?

I suppose it could depend on the nature of the business.  I'm in the agriculture business so it changes a lot over the years, like a roller coaster.

 

[Don't Noonan]

:sigh:

Donald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump 3h3 hours ago

The NFL has decided that it will not force players to stand for the playing of our National Anthem.

Total disrespect for our great country!

He just doesn't get it.

Just to be clear, you are talking about Squissy right?

 

[Hawkeye21]

Just to be clear, you are talking about Squissy right?

Nope.  Our moron of a President.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Just to be clear, you are talking about Squissy right?

Just to be clear, you think forcing people to stand for the national anthem is what this country is all about? 

I think most people would say that's pretty much the exact opposite of what this country is all about.  Compulsory gestures of nationalism are really more of a North Korea, Nazi Germany type thing.

 

[tonydead]

That's impressive.  They've never had a drop off in over 200 years?  They weren't even affected by the recession?

I suppose it could depend on the nature of the business.  I'm in the agriculture business so it changes a lot over the years, like a roller coaster.

Seems?  There is going to be variance in most things, but, to make it a rule that all things level or drop off is not correct.

The NFL has recently dominated the American sports market, but, they are far from dominating the world's sports market.  Why do you think they are playing more games in London and have preseason games in Mexico?  Imposing some arbitrary cap to their potential level of growth at this point in their history is wrong.  If they are loosing revenue it's a failure of adapting to market conditions or external factors.  It's crazy talk to say their potential market is tapped out and we certainly aren't in a recession.

 

[Don't Noonan]

Just to be clear, you think forcing people to stand for the national anthem is what this country is all about? 

I think most people would say that's pretty much the exact opposite of what this country is all about.  Compulsory gestures of nationalism are really more of a North Korea, Nazi Germany type thing.

Have you ever been to a sporting event?  Literally they announce "please stand" before the anthem.   Keeping your hat on used to be looked at as disrespectful but K Stink has taken it to another level.

 

[Hawkeye21]

The NFL has recently dominated the American sports market, but, they are far from dominating the world's sports market.  Why do you think they are playing more games in London and have preseason games in Mexico?  Imposing some arbitrary cap to their potential level of growth at this point in their history is wrong.  If they are loosing revenue it's a failure of adapting to market conditions or external factors.  It's crazy talk to say their potential market is tapped out and we certainly aren't in a recession.

They are still the most profitable sport in the world.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Have you ever been to a sporting event?  Literally they announce "please stand" before the anthem.   Keeping your hat on used to be looked at as disrespectful but K Stink has taken it to another level.

Yep, they ask you to stand.  There is no demanding that you must stand.  It has always been an option and should always remain an option.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Have you ever been to a sporting event?  Literally they announce "please stand" before the anthem.   Keeping your hat on used to be looked at as disrespectful but K Stink has taken it to another level.

I have. And the NFL has made a similar request of its players, loud and clear, over and over. The question is about forcing people to stand, not asking them to stand. That's what the NFL decided it wouldn't do, and that decision is what Trump took issue with in his tweets in his latest thinly veiled effort to distract us from his mind-boggling incompetence.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/49ers-owner-jed-york-nfl-national-anthem-policy-colin-kaepernick/kfx2o3b73ral1sfel5q87o0db

49ers' Jed York is voice of reason among NFL owners on protests, Kaepernick

Even in the moment, Jed York felt and sounded like the anti-Jerry Jones and the anti-Roger Goodell. Two days after the 49ers owner spoke his mind to reporters at the NFL owners-players meeting over protests, it seems even more so … especially once Goodell spoke and Jones notably did not.

York sounded as if he did not even belong at the same meeting or in the same group. So much talk about “socioeconomic (and) racial injustices," and respect for rights and freedoms, and partnerships with players and sacrificing the bottom line and (blasphemy!) how "courageous" Colin Kaepernick is.

He sounded like a voice of reason, possibly the voice of reason at a volatile time in NFL history.

So people aren't allowed to tell protesters what they are protesting but York thinks he can tell people what the message is?  Sorry but when these guys decided to use the anthem/flag others  get to decide the message that sends to them.  They lost their own message when they did that.

 

[Henry Ford]

Is the Veterans Weekend boycott something that is still being proposed? That will be very interesting. 

If there's one thing the right is terrible at, it's a boycott.

 

[TobiasFunke]

If there's one thing the right is terrible at, it's a boycott.

They're pretty bad at symbolic protests too.

 

[Don't Noonan]

I have. And the NFL has made a similar request of its players, loud and clear, over and over. The question is about forcing people to stand, not asking them to stand. That's what the NFL decided it wouldn't do, and that decision is what Trump took issue with in his tweets in his latest thinly veiled effort to distract us from his mind-boggling incompetence.

OK I misunderstood you my apologies.   I agree you can't force people to stand.  They just look like an ###### if they do not stand unless they are physically unable to.

 

[Dickies]

Have you ever been to a sporting event?  Literally they announce "please stand" before the anthem.   Keeping your hat on used to be looked at as disrespectful but K Stink has taken it to another level.

I refuse to participate because I think it's stupid to have the national anthem at sporting events.  If it's the Olympics or World Cup it's a bit different.  

 

[fantasycurse42]

I think the biggest factor is that a lot of people have become loathe to spend over three hours watching a single game (with seemingly an hour of it being commercial breaks) live or on TV when ample stats and highlights from every game are so freely and immediately available on every device.

Fantasy football has done a lot to broaden the NFL's appeal in recent years, but I think it's also gotten people used to paying attention to league-wide action on their phones rather than settling in to spend half a day watching just 1/16 of the week's action on a TV broadcast.

I think this is partially correct, but interest in fantasy football has also peaked and begun to decline IMO. 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/761119-vote-please-finish-this-sentence-my-interest-in-the-nfl/?page=2

So far 268 respondents to this poll, I really wanted 500 people because at that point (while still tiny) you can start to say you have some data to form opinions. I also polled here bc this audience is very fantasy focused, but also more than a casual viewer (IMO). 

14% of respondents cited politics as the key reason they stopped watching, while almost 26% said it was a one of a few reasons. Only 2.75% of respondents said it was due to a drop in the quality of play. 

57% said their level of interest is down YoY, that is a big number. 

At 270 votes, def not enough to make any assumptions, but if that poll could get up to 500, worth noting, especially considering the audience being polled. 

 

[squistion]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21069553/michael-bennett-seattle-seahawks-says-job-colin-kaepernick-first-step-moving-ahead-owners

Michael Bennett says Colin Kaepernick resolution needed before more talks with owners

RENTON, Wash. -- Seattle Seahawks defensive lineman Michael Bennett said that before NFL players and the league can move forward with their conversations about working together on social causes, the issue of Colin Kaepernick's unemployment must be addressed.

"I think the first step to even being able to even have a conversation is making sure that Colin Kaepernick gets an opportunity to play in the NFL," Bennett said Wednesday. "I think before we even negotiate anything about whether we sit, whether we stand [during the national anthem], it should be a negotiation about opening up the doors for Colin Kaepernick and giving him an opportunity again, because I feel like through everything, that's been lost.

"All of us are having an opportunity to be able to speak to our employers, but to think about the guy who started everything not to be able to have a voice at this moment, it just doesn't seem very right to me."

Bennett said he spoke with some of the players who attended the NFL meetings on Tuesday in New York; he was unable to be there because the Seahawks were practicing that day. Kaepernick was brought up during the meetings, according to Bennett, but there wasn't much discussion about him.

"I don't think we can work alongside of them until we address that issue," Bennett said. "I think the issue with Kaepernick is the start to a conversation. If they want us to be open to what they want, the dialogue, then that's something that needs to be on the table right there."

[...]

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Bennett thinks he can dictate who goes on the rosters now.  That guy has zero credibility after his LV nonsense.  My prediction is he's out of the league pretty soon.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I think this is partially correct, but interest in fantasy football has also peaked and begun to decline IMO. 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/761119-vote-please-finish-this-sentence-my-interest-in-the-nfl/?page=2

So far 268 respondents to this poll, I really wanted 500 people because at that point (while still tiny) you can start to say you have some data to form opinions. I also polled here bc this audience is very fantasy focused, but also more than a casual viewer (IMO). 

14% of respondents cited politics as the key reason they stopped watching, while almost 26% said it was a one of a few reasons. Only 2.75% of respondents said it was due to a drop in the quality of play. 

57% said their level of interest is down YoY, that is a big number. 

At 270 votes, def not enough to make any assumptions, but if that poll could get up to 500, worth noting, especially considering the audience being polled. 

Interesting. I like the idea of doing a poll on this, but no matter how many responses are given, I wouldn't trust the results. Partially because people often answer polls to make a point or to advance a narrative rather than to give sincerely honest feedback, and partially because even if they were trying to give sincerely honest feedback, most people aren't really consciously aware of their own motives about stuff like this a lot of the time. That said, a poll with a lot of responses is way better than speculation without empirical data.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Bennett thinks he can dictate who goes on the rosters now.  That guy has zero credibility after his LV nonsense.  My prediction is he's out of the league pretty soon.

In a league where the average career spans 3.3 years and the average age is 25, you think a 31 year old, 9 year vet is going to be out of the league pretty soon?

Pretty bold prediction there.

 

[Yenrub]

Bennett thinks he can dictate who goes on the rosters now.  That guy has zero credibility after his LV nonsense.  My prediction is he's out of the league pretty soon.

Well the guy is 32 so I'm sure he'll be out of the league soon too

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Well the guy is 32 so I'm sure he'll be out of the league soon too

You think because of his skills?  Or his wanna-be GM protests?

 

[Da Guru]

Bennett thinks he can dictate who goes on the rosters now.  That guy has zero credibility after his LV nonsense.  My prediction is he's out of the league pretty soon.

What happened to Bennett's lawsuit he was filing against the LVPD??

 

[Yenrub]

You think because of his skills?  Or his wanna-be GM protests?

Injuries and father time. He is still a very good player but he is starting to break down a little bit. He missed 5 or 6 games due to injury last season and I think he is banged up a bit this season though I don’t think he has missed any time yet. He will be 32 next month. 

 

[Dizzy]

Do other countries have this issue? I watch Formula 1 and the anthem of the winning country plays, and everyone listens (some sing along)... but it's at the end of the event, at the podium (similar to the Olympics), but there is no mention of past wars fought/won, sacrifices made, etc. It just seems like a song - a proud song, yes - but still a song... no flyover, no "and as a salute to our troops" announcement, etc.

On Kaep... I never hear him speak about all this stuff. I hear "statements" that are released by his team that say he wants to play in the NFL, but no message as far as whether he would be willing to accept a back-up role, or how much $$$ he's looking for. To me, he's like looking for a location to build a new prison... "publicly" everyone agrees that we need one, but off the record nobody wants it in their backyard.

 

[zftcg]

The problem is that you are calling it just a song. As I stated earlier, it's a reminder that no matter who we are and where we come from we are all Americans first and it's a brief time out during an otherwise typically go-go-go kind of lifestyle to remind us of that and bring us all together. I take my hat off and put my hand over my heart because I was raised to respect our flag. I never served and I feel it's at least my duty to appreciate those who have to give me the benefits I have today. I feel very honored to have known personally and closely a WWII vet who played extremely significant roles in WWII including the landing at Normandy and Battle of the Bulge. Personally, I think of those people when the anthem plays. 

I love my country, and was raised to stand at attention and remove my hat whenever the anthem plays. But until this whole Kaepernick controversy, it literally never occurred to me that the anthem was honoring the military. If you had asked me before Aug. 2016, I would have said that the SSB honors our country. Compare it to holidays: while Memorial Day and Veterans' Day are specifically meant to honor those who have served in the military, July 4 has a far broader focus on honoring the country as a whole. The military is a component of that, but it's not the sole focus. I've always viewed the SSB as being like July 4. And based on the statements Kaepernick made at the start of this controversy, that's how he viewed it as well.

I'm not saying anyone who views it differently than me is wrong, just sharing how I've always seen it.

 

[Chaka]

I love my country, and was raised to stand at attention and remove my hat whenever the anthem plays. But until this whole Kaepernick controversy, it literally never occurred to me that the anthem was honoring the military. If you had asked me before Aug. 2016, I would have said that the SSB honors our country. Compare it to holidays: while Memorial Day and Veterans' Day are specifically meant to honor those who have served in the military, July 4 has a far broader focus on honoring the country as a whole. The military is a component of that, but it's not the sole focus. I've always viewed the SSB as being like July 4. And based on the statements Kaepernick made at the start of this controversy, that's how he viewed it as well.

I'm not saying anyone who views it differently than me is wrong, just sharing how I've always seen it.

I agree.  I find it sad that people are trying to conflate the Anthem and Flag with the military and Patriotism, particularly when the make false claims to score political points.  The NFL has been instrumental in making this connection between Anthem, Flag & Military in the general population with the color guards and fly byes before seemingly every single game now.  For them it was a business decision as the DoD paid a ton of money for that, which created it's own mini-#### storm in 2014 (IIRC), which is forever ago in news time.

It may be too late to roll back that idea but I really wish it would happen.  The Anthem and Flag stand for so much more, including principles that allow people to burn our Flag or not stand during our Anthem without fear of reprecussion.

 

[zftcg]

I agree.  I find it sad that people are trying to conflate the Anthem and Flag with the military and Patriotism, particularly when the make false claims to score political points.  The NFL has been instrumental in making this connection between Anthem, Flag & Military in the general population with the color guards and fly byes before seemingly every single game now.  For them it was a business decision as the DoD paid a ton of money for that, which created it's own mini-#### storm in 2014 (IIRC), which is forever ago in news time.

It may be too late to roll back that idea but I really wish it would happen.  The Anthem and Flag stand for so much more, including principles that allow people to burn our Flag or not stand during our Anthem without fear of reprecussion.

I agree with you, although I'm sure there are plenty of Kaep critics out there who find it equally, if not more, offensive that he was criticizing the country as a whole rather than just the military. Which is a totally legitimate position to take, BTW, just as it's also legitimate for any individual to associate the anthem with the military. What's not OK is to assume that, because you make that association, you can therefore impute an anti-military message to Kaepernick's anthem protest when there is zero evidence that he is anti-military.

 

[Chaka]

I agree with you, although I'm sure there are plenty of Kaep critics out there who find it equally, if not more, offensive that he was criticizing the country as a whole rather than just the military. Which is a totally legitimate position to take, BTW, just as it's also legitimate for any individual to associate the anthem with the military. What's not OK is to assume that, because you make that association, you can therefore impute an anti-military message to Kaepernick's anthem protest when there is zero evidence that he is anti-military.

I'm sorry but did I miss something? I always thought his protests were clearly stated as being about disproportionate police violence in minority communities and social inequality in minority communities.  Those are not stances against the country as a whole.  Was there something else?

ETA: Because I agree that if he just said "America sucks, I ain't standing!" I would think much less of him. I would still defend his right to protest but still, that would be uncool.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Just wanted to say F... Colin Kaepernick, he has ruined football... Ok continue with your discussion

 

[zftcg]

I'm sorry but did I miss something? I always thought his protests were clearly stated as being about disproportionate police violence in minority communities and social inequality in minority communities.  Those are not stances against the country as a whole.  Was there something else?

ETA: Because I agree that if he just said "America sucks, I ain't standing!" I would think much less of him. I would still defend his right to protest but still, that would be uncool.

I was thinking of his initial quote when reporters first noticed he was sitting: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." So yes, he was motivated by the issue of racism and police brutality (he mentioned "bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder") but he specifically said his protest was against the flag and the country.

 

[Chaka]

I was thinking of his initial quote when reporters first noticed he was sitting: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." So yes, he was motivated by the issue of racism and police brutality (he mentioned "bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder") but he specifically said his protest was against the flag and the country.

I won't quibble over the interpretation but anti-Country wasn't my takeaway at the time and is even less so now with the year of clarification on the issue.

 

[Shula-holic]

What happened to Bennett's lawsuit he was filing against the LVPD??

Gone like a fart in the wind

 

[Don't Noonan]

What happened to Stealthycat did he get banned?

 

[zftcg]

I won't quibble over the interpretation but anti-Country wasn't my takeaway at the time and is even less so now with the year of clarification on the issue.

I mean, it doesn't matter to me personally if someone says "I oppose the way police in this country treat African Americans" or "I am protesting this country until it lives up to its ideals regarding equality" (which is basically what Kaep said) or even "This country is irredeemably racist" (which, incidentally, is the position MLK was inching toward by the final year of his life).  IMO, all could be argued with at least some validity, and really just come down to a question of what you choose to emphasize.

The only point I was trying to make is that I'm sure there are people who will look at that Kaep quote and say, "OK, so he wasn't dissing the military. He was saying the country itself is not worthy of showing pride in, which IMO is even worse."