Complete Games v Pitch Count (1 Viewer)

[Knocks]

I am a Tiger fan and a buddy of mine and I were discussing Scherzer. Both of us agree he is good and had a great year. Deserves the Cy Young.

BUT...my buddy commented that he was angry when Scherzer reportedly left the Boston playoff game after 7 innings saying "Im done". Given the Tigers bullpen, an old school manager (Mayo Smith?) would have said "you are better after 7 than anyone else I have, get your ### back out there".

He also told me Scherzer has NEVER pitched a complete game in the majors.

Mickey Lolich pitched 3 CG in the 68 series and the clinching game 7 was on 2 days rest. I looked a bit deeper and Lolich had 195 CG in his 16 year career.

So, do pitch counts really matter or are this era's pitchers soft?

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I'd rather have a guy who gets pulled "too early" than to blow out his arm trying for a personal stat that may hurt his team in the long run.

 

[Eephus]

Silver King, Old Hoss Radbourn and Pud Galvin send their regards.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Old Hoss Radbourn

Went 59-12 with 678.2 innings pitched in 1884.

Surprised they couldn't squeeze in one more start so he could finish with 60 wins.

 

[Bogart]

Silver King, Old Hoss Radbourn and Pud Galvin send their regards.

That's your starting rotation and bullpen right there. And probably your 4th outfielder.

 

[Knocks]

I'd rather have a guy who gets pulled "too early" than to blow out his arm trying for a personal stat that may hurt his team in the long run.

I understand what you are saying to a point, but this is not about personal stats. It is actaully more about why 'giving it all I got' = 7 to 8 innings now and 30 years ago it meant a complete game. I really doubt there is any great instance of pitchers who blew out their arms. The Hall of Fame is full of guy who dominated over may innings and lengthy careers and never blew out their arms.

Silver King, Old Hoss Radbourn and Pud Galvin send their regards.

No need to go back that far...Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Jack Morris...etc.

I guess I do wonder a bit about a guy who just says "Im done" in a playoff game. If he is hurting sure, leave, waive the flag...but thats not what appeared to happen with Scherzer. He has NEVER pitched a CG.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

If you look at Max's manager in Detroit you will see a guy who rarely let anybody pitch a complete game unless they had a no-hitter going (Verlander & Sanchez I believe). I'm not sure about Max's managers in his previous stops.

 

[DropKick]

I am a Tiger fan and a buddy of mine and I were discussing Scherzer. Both of us agree he is good and had a great year. Deserves the Cy Young.

BUT...my buddy commented that he was angry when Scherzer reportedly left the Boston playoff game after 7 innings saying "Im done". Given the Tigers bullpen, an old school manager (Mayo Smith?) would have said "you are better after 7 than anyone else I have, get your ### back out there".

He also told me Scherzer has NEVER pitched a complete game in the majors.

Mickey Lolich pitched 3 CG in the 68 series and the clinching game 7 was on 2 days rest. I looked a bit deeper and Lolich had 195 CG in his 16 year career.

So, do pitch counts really matter or are this era's pitchers soft?

Did he really cry "no mas"? What was his pitch count? Big difference between 80 and 120.

I remember seeing a study that correlated pitches thrown at an early age with longevity. Basically, the more pitches thrown early resulted in shorter careers. Some guys, that lost early years to war, pitched well into their later years. When I was a kid, you played baseball in the spring - now it seems like they play year round (AAU, etc.)

I'm not sure what drove the modern thinking on pitch counts. Exorbitant contracts? But, in any case, some of these guys don't seemed conditioned (mentally or physically) to throw a ton of pitches.

 

[jon_mx]

Imho, Max covered for Leyland a bit. m

 

[Da Guru]

I have never heard of a competitive pitcher come in after 7 innings in such an important game and say "I`m done" when the inning before Max still had great stuff and hitting 96 on his fastball. There in no way in hell Verlander would come in after 7 and say I`m done. Lackey fought tooth and nail to stay in those games.

I kind of agree that Leyland had already made his mind up and Max was just going along that he had enough. That loss probably cost the Tigers going to the World Series.

Tom Seaver commented that he never would say that he was done, keep battling and let the manager decide. Max had 4 months to rest.

 

[dparker713]

Sure, there are some great pitchers that could handle the old workloads. But what everyone forgets when they bring this up is all the guys that blew their arms out in the attempt to find that few that could handle the load. Plus, there are just a lot more innings now. 8 more games and many more teams. Plus, there have been concerns in the past concerning Scherzer's mechanics in particular - it was supposedly a significant motivation for AZ in trading him.