Consensus Top 350 Albums of All-Time: 1. The Dark Side of the Moon – Pink Floyd (520 Viewers)

[Ghost Rider]

I don't have enough of an emotional connection to Zeppelin to demote them too much over their thievery. I mean, I have always liked them since first getting into classic rock in my later teens, but they have never been a favorite, and I have no special nostalgia associated with them about any time in my life. If I did, I suspect the thievery would be very bothersome to me.

I do think Jimmy Page is probably one of the more overrated classic rockers ever. He usually gets the most credit for LZ's greatness since he was the main producer/songwriter(stealer), but I think the fact that he has done jack squat that is worth a darn since Bonham died and LZ split up tells us how important Bonham, Jones and Plant were.

 

[Don Quixote]

I still love and listen to Physical Graffiti a fair amount, but what @rockaction is talking about above is a big reason I stopped respecting and listening to LZ so much. Between that and having a song on most albums that I dislike (Lemon Song, You Shook) to downright hate (Hot Dog, D'yer Mak'er, Battle of Evermore), it's just not a band I go back to that much at all.

Same here. I listened to LZ a decent amount in my early 20s or so. They served as a gateway to diving deeper into some of the early blues artists. If greatest hits-types were allowed, I mentioned earlier that I probably would have included the Chess 50th anniversary compilations of some of those. I can’t remember the last time that I listened to LZ now though.

 

[zamboni]

Muddy Waters - "You Need Love" from Willie Dixon's "You Need Love"

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In the most recent MAD countdown regarding Steve Marriott, I had the Small Faces’ cover of this in my top 31.

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Led Zep’s version was more closely tied to this version, kicking it into high gear.

 

[zamboni]

Re: Pink Floyd, I’m not surprised Animals was ranked. I’m quite surprised that it was ranked this highly, as I thought it wasn’t as strong as their top three. I wound up deciding between this one and Meddle, as I didn’t rank more than four albums for any artist, which is why this one and Physical Graffiti didn’t make my list. Both are clearly deserving, and at least I know that I helped get Meddle ranked.

When people talk Pink Floyd’s “big three”, I would think that included Animals but it seems to most, it does not.

When I've seen the big three referenced, it's mostly skipping Animals. I think at least part of the reason is that it had no big radio hits. I like Animals much better than one of the big three that I'm sure is coming.

I guess I’m thinking more among Pink Floyd fans - but I get it overall.

Most Floyd fans tend to lump Animals into a big four. At least I do, with The Wall being a notch below the other three.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Re: Pink Floyd, I’m not surprised Animals was ranked. I’m quite surprised that it was ranked this highly, as I thought it wasn’t as strong as their top three. I wound up deciding between this one and Meddle, as I didn’t rank more than four albums for any artist, which is why this one and Physical Graffiti didn’t make my list. Both are clearly deserving, and at least I know that I helped get Meddle ranked.

When people talk Pink Floyd’s “big three”, I would think that included Animals but it seems to most, it does not.

When I've seen the big three referenced, it's mostly skipping Animals. I think at least part of the reason is that it had no big radio hits. I like Animals much better than one of the big three that I'm sure is coming.

I guess I’m thinking more among Pink Floyd fans - but I get it overall.

Most Floyd fans probably lump Animals into a big four. At least I do, with The Wall being a notch below the rest of them.

That is pretty much my take. I have Animals/Dark/Wish then The Wall/Meddle on the next tier. I get that The Wall gets flipped with Animals for a lot of people though.

 

[rockaction]

Muddy Waters - "You Need Love" from Willie Dixon's "You Need Love"

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In the most recent MAD countdown regarding Steve Marriott, I had the Small Faces’ cover of this in my top 31.

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Led Zep’s version was more closely tied to this version, kicking it into high gear.

Yep. They cribbed the covers also.

This is what else I can infer and it might be wrong but I think I’m correct. I took Music Law (copyright applied to it) in law school. I actually got a miracle/high A (and award with dinner!) by correcting the multiple choice when it was wrong. So I used to know this stuff. That's not even a humblebrag—just a straight boast. I almost reported myself on accident which would have been appropriate here.

But yeah, over at Steve Hoffman the thread asserts that Zeppelin wouldn’t just cop old blues songs, but would also cop European versions of those blues songs. So I infer that since the copyright exists in the original, and since some originals were in the public domain or not defended, that meant the European embellishment wasn’t protected. So they could steal that also!

Neat trick. Until they blew up and the original holders that had copyrights got wind. Whoops. It’s awesome!

eta* I don't remember almost anything from the class, so I can't defend myself that way. I only remember certain things. It's been eighteen years. Oh my God. It feels like yesterday I was sitting there and our TA N___ gave me an Arcade Fire DVD and said they were going to revolutionize indie or something like that. Oh my, was she ever kinda on to something. I didn't care for them, but would later like them a touch. She (the TA) wrote the exam (or so I heard) and that's why she botched two questions (out of twenty-five or so and then we had two essays) and the prof had to clean it up. Funny. That's how that all happened.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I still love and listen to Physical Graffiti a fair amount, but what @rockaction is talking about above is a big reason I stopped respecting and listening to LZ so much. Between that and having a song on most albums that I dislike (Lemon Song, You Shook) to downright hate (Hot Dog, D'yer Mak'er, Battle of Evermore), it's just not a band I go back to that much at all.

Same here. I listened to LZ a decent amount in my early 20s or so. They served as a gateway to diving deeper into some of the early blues artists. If greatest hits-types were allowed, I mentioned earlier that I probably would have included the Chess 50th anniversary compilations of some of those. I can’t remember the last time that I listened to LZ now though.

Fantastic way to put it. Because of the rockin' hits on the radio they were one of my first gateways to classic rock in general and branching out from there, and to more of a bluesy sound and going in that direction. For that I thank and appreciate them for that, but I can't remember the last time I wanted to listen to anything besides the one I voted for.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I lean towards @rockaction 's take on this in regards to Zep, and I love Zep. But you cannot lift whole verses from someone else's songs, turn the amps to 11, and change the name of the record to a fruit without acknowledging the originator (or, whoever owns the rights) so that they get paid.

 

[zamboni]

Muddy Waters - "You Need Love" from Willie Dixon's "You Need Love"

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In the most recent MAD countdown regarding Steve Marriott, I had the Small Faces’ cover of this in my top 31.

Your browser is deprecated. Please upgrade.

music.youtube.com

Led Zep’s version was more closely tied to this version, kicking it into high gear.

Yep. They cribbed the covers also.

This is what else I can infer and it might be wrong but I think I’m correct. I took Music Law (copyright applied to it) in law school. I actually got a miracle/high A (and award with dinner!) by correcting the multiple choice when it was wrong. So I used to know this stuff. not even a humblebrag—just a straight boast. I almost reported myself on accident which would have been appropriate here.

But yeah, over at Steve Hoffman the thread asserts that Zeppelin wouldn’t just cop old blues songs, but would also cop European versions of those blues songs. So I infer that since the copyright exists in the original, and since some originals were in the public domain or not defended, that meant the European embellishment wasn’t protected. So they could steal that also!

Neat trick. Until they blew up and the original holders that had copyrights got wind. Whoops. It’s awesome!

Interestingly enough, Willie Dixon, who wrote the lyrics of the original, went after Zep and not the Small Faces for copyright infringement in the mid-‘80s. Have to think it was due to the much deeper pockets of Zep at the time vis-à-vis The Small Faces.

 

[rockaction]

I used to listen to Zep at 26 or 27 all the time time and am actually one of the few that see no problem with a song (if properly attributed) like even “D’yer Ma’ker,” which is running through my head. I think there’s originality in updates. I just . . . I don’t see the comparison to those debuts finishing ahead of it.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Muddy Waters - "You Need Love" from Willie Dixon's "You Need Love"

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In the most recent MAD countdown regarding Steve Marriott, I had the Small Faces’ cover of this in my top 31.

Your browser is deprecated. Please upgrade.

music.youtube.com

Led Zep’s version was more closely tied to this version, kicking it into high gear.

Yep. They cribbed the covers also.

This is what else I can infer and it might be wrong but I think I’m correct. I took Music Law (copyright applied to it) in law school. I actually got a miracle/high A (and award with dinner!) by correcting the multiple choice when it was wrong. So I used to know this stuff. not even a humblebrag—just a straight boast. I almost reported myself on accident which would have been appropriate here.

But yeah, over at Steve Hoffman the thread asserts that Zeppelin wouldn’t just cop old blues songs, but would also cop European versions of those blues songs. So I infer that since the copyright exists in the original, and since some originals were in the public domain or not defended, that meant the European embellishment wasn’t protected. So they could steal that also!

Neat trick. Until they blew up and the original holders that had copyrights got wind. Whoops. It’s awesome!

Interestingly enough, Willie Dixon, who wrote the lyrics of the original, went after Zep and not the Small Faces for copyright infringement in the mid-‘80s. Have to think it was due to the much deeper pockets of Zep at the time vis-à-vis The Small Faces.

I don't blame Dixon a bit. I'd have gone after LZ, too, instead of the Small Faces.

 

[Dwayne_Castro]

Re: Pink Floyd, I’m not surprised Animals was ranked. I’m quite surprised that it was ranked this highly, as I thought it wasn’t as strong as their top three. I wound up deciding between this one and Meddle, as I didn’t rank more than four albums for any artist, which is why this one and Physical Graffiti didn’t make my list. Both are clearly deserving, and at least I know that I helped get Meddle ranked.

When people talk Pink Floyd’s “big three”, I would think that included Animals but it seems to most, it does not.

My understanding from what I read was that Animals was massively hyped as the follow-up to a not-yet-revealed album but at the time was considered a bit of a disappointment. In reality, the album is very good and certainly within the style that made Pink Floyd so popular. The longer songs on the album are outstanding, but both “Pigs on the Wing” entries simply annoyed me. (IMO, JMO)

 

[Ghost Rider]

Muddy Waters - "You Need Love" from Willie Dixon's "You Need Love"

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Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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In the most recent MAD countdown regarding Steve Marriott, I had the Small Faces’ cover of this in my top 31.

Your browser is deprecated. Please upgrade.

music.youtube.com

Led Zep’s version was more closely tied to this version, kicking it into high gear.

Yep. They cribbed the covers also.

This is what else I can infer and it might be wrong but I think I’m correct. I took Music Law (copyright applied to it) in law school. I actually got a miracle/high A (and award with dinner!) by correcting the multiple choice when it was wrong. So I used to know this stuff. not even a humblebrag—just a straight boast. I almost reported myself on accident which would have been appropriate here.

But yeah, over at Steve Hoffman the thread asserts that Zeppelin wouldn’t just cop old blues songs, but would also cop European versions of those blues songs. So I infer that since the copyright exists in the original, and since some originals were in the public domain or not defended, that meant the European embellishment wasn’t protected. So they could steal that also!

Neat trick. Until they blew up and the original holders that had copyrights got wind. Whoops. It’s awesome!

Interestingly enough, Willie Dixon, who wrote the lyrics of the original, went after Zep and not the Small Faces for copyright infringement in the mid-‘80s. Have to think it was due to the much deeper pockets of Zep at the time vis-à-vis The Small Faces.

Yep, I imagine it's not worth it to spend big money on litigation to go after the small dogs. The progressive metal band Dream Theater had a stretch where they were borrowing from influences pretty regularly (mid to late 00s), but I don't think anyone ever went after them. There was probably little to be won since they are so below the radar.

 

[rockaction]

Muddy Waters - "You Need Love" from Willie Dixon's "You Need Love"

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Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

In the most recent MAD countdown regarding Steve Marriott, I had the Small Faces’ cover of this in my top 31.

Your browser is deprecated. Please upgrade.

music.youtube.com

Led Zep’s version was more closely tied to this version, kicking it into high gear.

Yep. They cribbed the covers also.

This is what else I can infer and it might be wrong but I think I’m correct. I took Music Law (copyright applied to it) in law school. I actually got a miracle/high A (and award with dinner!) by correcting the multiple choice when it was wrong. So I used to know this stuff. not even a humblebrag—just a straight boast. I almost reported myself on accident which would have been appropriate here.

But yeah, over at Steve Hoffman the thread asserts that Zeppelin wouldn’t just cop old blues songs, but would also cop European versions of those blues songs. So I infer that since the copyright exists in the original, and since some originals were in the public domain or not defended, that meant the European embellishment wasn’t protected. So they could steal that also!

Neat trick. Until they blew up and the original holders that had copyrights got wind. Whoops. It’s awesome!

Interestingly enough, Willie Dixon, who wrote the lyrics of the original, went after Zep and not the Small Faces for copyright infringement in the mid-‘80s. Have to think it was due to the much deeper pockets of Zep at the time vis-à-vis The Small Faces.

They sure did do that. And it was fair to do so. The Small Faces had no recourse, sadly.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Quick AI search and then narrowed down to both make more sense and refocus the debate to their debut:

Off Led Zeppelin (1969), there are three songs from the settled list that were on the debut album:

1. Babe I’m Gonna Leave You – later credited to Anne Bredon after settlement.
2. Dazed and Confused – based on Jake Holmes’ song; settlement decades later.
3. Bring It on Home – uses Sonny Boy Williamson/Willie Dixon material; part of the 1970s Chess Records settlement.

Back to me:

Four of nine songs are co-written by people who wrote the songs at least two years before Zeppelin and a fifth is widely attributed to others and the artists that taught it to Page expressed massive frustration with not receiving any credit ("Black Mountain Side").

When people steal that often without credit that puts them into at least a "thief" category and possibly then some. When thieves steal, sometimes they need legal accountability and it seems Page got plenty on his debut. I think there are others off of the debut, but I don't want to even waste time.

Eh, one last, but this is on the high end: If you go back and take the six (there are six) disputed songs on the album, then nearly 80% of the album run time is borrowed or outright lifted and covered.

I know people are going to fire a bunch of reasons back, but I don't think any of those bands listed below have had the same issues. Not even close. Because they're also original in delivery and composition, whereas Zep is an electrified, heavy blues band, which is a genre that goes back to at least 1930 and isn't really original ca. 1969.

The Velvet Underground "borrowed" Hitch Hike by Marvin Gaye for sure. That's probably the only one out of these. It sort of speaks for itself just looking at it.

19. Boston – Boston (737 points)
24. Appetite For Destruction – Guns N' Roses (645 points)
26. The Cars – The Cars (614 points)
36. Van Halen – Van Halen (489 points)
39. Are You Experienced – Jimi Hendrix Experience (437 points)
53. Never Mind The Bollocks, Here's The Sex Pistols – Sex Pistols (373 points)
56 (tie). Rage Against The Machine– Rage Against The Machine (366 points)
59. Pronounced 'Lĕh-'Nérd 'Skin-'Nérd – Lynyrd Skynyrd (354 points)
64. The Velvet Underground & Nico – The Velvet Underground & Nico (340 points)
67. Bat out of Hell – Meatloaf (332 points)
69 (tie). The Doors – The Doors (328 points)
69 (tie). Violent Femmes – Violent Femmes (328 points)
72 (tie). Marquee Moon – Television (323 points)
77. Funeral – Arcade Fire (305 points)

No one ever accused that Boston album of being unoriginal. And Steinman is just Steinman and all others mearly pale imitations.

Not sure what you’re trying to say. I’m saying they’re all more original than LZ1.

I think they’re all actually wildly more original than the ~50% (at least) of Led Zeppelin’s debut that is directly lifted from others.

I should make the least debatable claim. It’s at least ~44% and that’s if you’re in the most generous of moods.

Rock, I'm agreeing with you.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

14. London Calling – The Clash (775 points)

@kupcho1 #1
@Barry2 #1
Jeb #3
@Chaos34 #5
@timschochet #7
@Dr. Octopus #8
@Pip's Invitation #11
@Mister CIA #17
@titusbramble #23
@Nick Vermeil #23
@Don Quixote #28
@SayChowda #29
@rockaction #39
@Eephus #46
@ConstruxBoy #57
@landrys hat #63

London Calling is the third studio album by the English rock band the Clash. It was originally released as a double album in the United Kingdom on 14 December 1979 by CBS Records, and in the United States in January 1980 by Epic Records.

The Clash recorded the album with producer Guy Stevens at Wessex Sound Studios in London over a five- to six-week period starting in August 1979, following a change in management and a period of writer's block for songwriters Joe Strummer and Mick Jones. Bridging a traditional punk rock sound and a new wave aesthetic, London Calling reflects the band's growing interest in styles beyond their punk roots, including reggae, rockabilly, ska, New Orleans R&B, pop, lounge jazz, and hard rock. Lyrical themes include social displacement, unemployment, racial conflict, drug use, and the responsibilities of adulthood.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

14. London Calling – The Clash (775 points)

@kupcho1 #1
@Barry2 #1
Jeb #3
@Chaos34 #5
@timschochet #7
@Dr. Octopus #8
@Pip's Invitation #11
@Mister CIA #17
@titusbramble #23
@Nick Vermeil #23
@Don Quixote #28
@SayChowda #29
@rockaction #39
@Eephus #46
@ConstruxBoy #57
@landrys hat #63

London Calling is the third studio album by the English rock band the Clash. It was originally released as a double album in the United Kingdom on 14 December 1979 by CBS Records, and in the United States in January 1980 by Epic Records.

The Clash recorded the album with producer Guy Stevens at Wessex Sound Studios in London over a five- to six-week period starting in August 1979, following a change in management and a period of writer's block for songwriters Joe Strummer and Mick Jones. Bridging a traditional punk rock sound and a new wave aesthetic, London Calling reflects the band's growing interest in styles beyond their punk roots, including reggae, rockabilly, ska, New Orleans R&B, pop, lounge jazz, and hard rock. Lyrical themes include social displacement, unemployment, racial conflict, drug use, and the responsibilities of adulthood.

This was the album that grabbed the #1 overall slot for a lot of the early submissions building what seemed to be an insurmountable lead, until dropping and dropping and ending up at here.

 

[rockaction]

Quick AI search and then narrowed down to both make more sense and refocus the debate to their debut:

Off Led Zeppelin (1969), there are three songs from the settled list that were on the debut album:

1. Babe I’m Gonna Leave You – later credited to Anne Bredon after settlement.
2. Dazed and Confused – based on Jake Holmes’ song; settlement decades later.
3. Bring It on Home – uses Sonny Boy Williamson/Willie Dixon material; part of the 1970s Chess Records settlement.

Back to me:

Four of nine songs are co-written by people who wrote the songs at least two years before Zeppelin and a fifth is widely attributed to others and the artists that taught it to Page expressed massive frustration with not receiving any credit ("Black Mountain Side").

When people steal that often without credit that puts them into at least a "thief" category and possibly then some. When thieves steal, sometimes they need legal accountability and it seems Page got plenty on his debut. I think there are others off of the debut, but I don't want to even waste time.

Eh, one last, but this is on the high end: If you go back and take the six (there are six) disputed songs on the album, then nearly 80% of the album run time is borrowed or outright lifted and covered.

I know people are going to fire a bunch of reasons back, but I don't think any of those bands listed below have had the same issues. Not even close. Because they're also original in delivery and composition, whereas Zep is an electrified, heavy blues band, which is a genre that goes back to at least 1930 and isn't really original ca. 1969.

The Velvet Underground "borrowed" Hitch Hike by Marvin Gaye for sure. That's probably the only one out of these. It sort of speaks for itself just looking at it.

19. Boston – Boston (737 points)
24. Appetite For Destruction – Guns N' Roses (645 points)
26. The Cars – The Cars (614 points)
36. Van Halen – Van Halen (489 points)
39. Are You Experienced – Jimi Hendrix Experience (437 points)
53. Never Mind The Bollocks, Here's The Sex Pistols – Sex Pistols (373 points)
56 (tie). Rage Against The Machine– Rage Against The Machine (366 points)
59. Pronounced 'Lĕh-'Nérd 'Skin-'Nérd – Lynyrd Skynyrd (354 points)
64. The Velvet Underground & Nico – The Velvet Underground & Nico (340 points)
67. Bat out of Hell – Meatloaf (332 points)
69 (tie). The Doors – The Doors (328 points)
69 (tie). Violent Femmes – Violent Femmes (328 points)
72 (tie). Marquee Moon – Television (323 points)
77. Funeral – Arcade Fire (305 points)

No one ever accused that Boston album of being unoriginal. And Steinman is just Steinman and all others mearly pale imitations.

Not sure what you’re trying to say. I’m saying they’re all more original than LZ1.

I think they’re all actually wildly more original than the ~50% (at least) of Led Zeppelin’s debut that is directly lifted from others.

I should make the least debatable claim. It’s at least ~44% and that’s if you’re in the most generous of moods.

Rock, I'm agreeing with you.

I thought you were, Mrs. R. I was just a bit confused and wanted to make sure of what you were saying. It’s the phraseology. Usually one says (in idiom), “nobody ever accused them of being original,” which is generally a swipe at the act mentioned, but then you used Meat Loaf who I know you love. So I thought autocorrect or something.

I wasn’t mad if you disagreed. I appreciate the people here (you) enough to stomach disagreeing. I was just confused. No big deal unless my tone was off. Then my apologies.

 

[rockaction]

14. London Calling – The Clash (775 points)

@kupcho1 #1
@Barry2 #1
Jeb #3
@Chaos34 #5
@timschochet #7
@Dr. Octopus #8
@Pip's Invitation #11
@Mister CIA #17
@titusbramble #23
@Nick Vermeil #23
@Don Quixote #28
@SayChowda #29
@rockaction #39
@Eephus #46
@ConstruxBoy #57
@landrys hat #63

London Calling is the third studio album by the English rock band the Clash. It was originally released as a double album in the United Kingdom on 14 December 1979 by CBS Records, and in the United States in January 1980 by Epic Records.

The Clash recorded the album with producer Guy Stevens at Wessex Sound Studios in London over a five- to six-week period starting in August 1979, following a change in management and a period of writer's block for songwriters Joe Strummer and Mick Jones. Bridging a traditional punk rock sound and a new wave aesthetic, London Calling reflects the band's growing interest in styles beyond their punk roots, including reggae, rockabilly, ska, New Orleans R&B, pop, lounge jazz, and hard rock. Lyrical themes include social displacement, unemployment, racial conflict, drug use, and the responsibilities of adulthood.

Remarkably high. Nice to see something like this slip into the top fifteen.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

14. London Calling – The Clash (775 points)

@kupcho1 #1
@Barry2 #1
Jeb #3
@Chaos34 #5
@timschochet #7
@Dr. Octopus #8
@Pip's Invitation #11
@Mister CIA #17
@titusbramble #23
@Nick Vermeil #23
@Don Quixote #28
@SayChowda #29
@rockaction #39
@Eephus #46
@ConstruxBoy #57
@landrys hat #63

London Calling is the third studio album by the English rock band the Clash. It was originally released as a double album in the United Kingdom on 14 December 1979 by CBS Records, and in the United States in January 1980 by Epic Records.

The Clash recorded the album with producer Guy Stevens at Wessex Sound Studios in London over a five- to six-week period starting in August 1979, following a change in management and a period of writer's block for songwriters Joe Strummer and Mick Jones. Bridging a traditional punk rock sound and a new wave aesthetic, London Calling reflects the band's growing interest in styles beyond their punk roots, including reggae, rockabilly, ska, New Orleans R&B, pop, lounge jazz, and hard rock. Lyrical themes include social displacement, unemployment, racial conflict, drug use, and the responsibilities of adulthood.

This was the album that grabbed the #1 overall slot for a lot of the early submissions building what seemed to be an insurmountable lead, until dropping and dropping and ending up at here.

A few days ago, I started wondering - given the latest reveals at the time - what was gonna be #1. I thought this one might be it.

 

[Tau837]

I lean towards @rockaction 's take on this in regards to Zep, and I love Zep. But you cannot lift whole verses from someone else's songs, turn the amps to 11, and change the name of the record to a fruit without acknowledging the originator (or, whoever owns the rights) so that they get paid.

I don’t agree with them not crediting others where appropriate. But they obviously did much more than “turn the amps to 11 and change the name of the record.”

Sure, it is reasonable to say the other debuts were more original. That doesn’t mean the music was better.

 

[Juxtatarot]

I’m interested in what you guys think are the best deeper cuts on London Calling.

I listened to it the first time the other day. I’ve always liked the songs I’ve known from the radio and liked a Big Audio Dynamite album back in the day. They are a band that seem like they should be in my wheelhouse. However, the album didn’t click with me on first listen. I’d like give it another shot but a strategic skipping around might work better for me.

 

[rockaction]

I lean towards @rockaction 's take on this in regards to Zep, and I love Zep. But you cannot lift whole verses from someone else's songs, turn the amps to 11, and change the name of the record to a fruit without acknowledging the originator (or, whoever owns the rights) so that they get paid.

I don’t agree with them not crediting others where appropriate. But they obviously did much more than “turn the amps to 11 and change the name of the record.”

Sure, it is reasonable to say the other debuts were more original. That doesn’t mean the music was better.

You just managed to avoid the meat of the argument and give us a total straw man with revamped premises and goalpost shifting.

78% of the runtime (the total time of the tracks) on their debut is universally considered lifted.

It's not original in the least. And originality is certainly something to factor into one's decision about where to rank an album.

If you'd like to debate it, or keep at it—how about debating anything that I said in response?

Because you commented on my comment, and you have no answer for it, so you're going to take Uruk's hyperbole (who was making a sarcastic point not to be taken too literally), make it literal, shift the goalpost, and then make your counterargument???

Dude, don't. Just Win Baby!

 

[rockaction]

I’m interested in what you guys think are the best deeper cuts on London Calling.

I listened to it the first time the other day. I’ve always liked the songs I’ve known from the radio and liked a Big Audio Dynamite album back in the day. They are a band that seem like they should be in my wheelhouse. However, the album didn’t click with me on first listen. I’d like give it another shot but a strategic skipping around might work better for me.

"Rudie Can't Fail" is probably the best. "Brand New Cadillac," "Clampdown" and others I'm probably forgetting.

eta* shoot. By best I mean "my favorite"

 

[Dr. Octopus]

liked a Big Audio Dynamite album back in the day

One of their albums was on my list at one point, but it ended up dropping out.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I’m interested in what you guys think are the best deeper cuts on London Calling.

I listened to it the first time the other day. I’ve always liked the songs I’ve known from the radio and liked a Big Audio Dynamite album back in the day. They are a band that seem like they should be in my wheelhouse. However, the album didn’t click with me on first listen. I’d like give it another shot but a strategic skipping around might work better for me.

"Rudie Can't Fail" is probably the best. "Brand New Cadillac," "Clampdown" and others I'm probably forgetting.

also "Wrong "Em Boyo"; "Lost in the Supermarket" (although that did get some radio airplay); and "Death or Glory"

 

[Don Quixote]

Opener/closing song discussion has to include the London Calling title track and Train in Vain.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

78% of the runtime tracks on their debut is universally considered lifted.

Did this continue on other albums? Not forgiving them for stealing on their debut, but they seemed to move past it and put out a lot of great (and original) music after their debut.

 

[rockaction]

78% of the runtime tracks on their debut is universally considered lifted.

Did this continue on other albums? Not forgiving them for stealing on their debut, but they seemed to move past it and put out a lot of great (and original) music after their debut.

Yeah, it did. There is a significant portion of their stuff that was. I'm not going to look up all of them and confirm this, but I'm not sure the burden of proof is on me at this point. My tone is actually one of sort of a deep breath and here goes.

But here goes.

How much of their whole discography?

ChatGPT said:​

Alright — I went through the studio albums (Led Zeppelin → In Through the Out Door) and flagged every song with:

1. Confirmed lawsuit/settlement (retroactive credit, publishing split, or damages)
2. Undisputed borrowing (directly adapted from a prior artist’s work, even if public domain or no lawsuit filed)

---

Whole Discography Breakdown​

• Total released studio tracks (excluding Coda outtakes) → 74
• Tracks with confirmed lawsuit/settlement → ~15 (~20%)
• Tracks with undisputed derivative borrowing (includes above) → ~34 (~46%)

---

Runtime Calculation​

• Total runtime of studio albums: ~8 hours 12 minutes (~492 minutes)
• Runtime from confirmed lawsuit/settlement songs: ~1 hr 52 min (~112 minutes) → ≈23%
• Runtime from all derivative borrowing: ~3 hr 21 min (~201 minutes) → ≈41% of their recorded output.

---

What counts as “derivative” here​

• Direct covers credited (e.g., You Shook Me — Willie Dixon) — counted.
• Traditional/public domain arrangements (e.g., Gallows Pole, Nobody’s Fault but Mine) — counted.
• Songs with clearly lifted riffs, verses, or melodies from earlier recordings (How Many More Times, The Lemon Song, Custard Pie) — counted.
• Minor stylistic inspiration (e.g., “in the style of” with no direct lift) — not counted.

---

Takeaway​

• Zeppelin’s lawsuit material: about 1 in every 5 songs by count, almost 1 in 4 minutes by runtime.
• If you include the non-litigated but obviously borrowed stuff, nearly half their career output is derivative in some form.
• That percentage is much higher on their first 3 albums, and drops off after Physical Graffiti as they leaned more on original jams and studio experimentation.

---

If you want, I can list every derivative track album-by-album so you can see exactly where the copying clusters are — the early records look like a patchwork quilt of lawsuits waiting to happen.

 

[Don Quixote]

I’m interested in what you guys think are the best deeper cuts on London Calling.

I listened to it the first time the other day. I’ve always liked the songs I’ve known from the radio and liked a Big Audio Dynamite album back in the day. They are a band that seem like they should be in my wheelhouse. However, the album didn’t click with me on first listen. I’d like give it another shot but a strategic skipping around might work better for me.

"Rudie Can't Fail" is probably the best. "Brand New Cadillac," "Clampdown" and others I'm probably forgetting.

also "Wrong "Em Boyo"; "Lost in the Supermarket" (although that did get some radio airplay); and "Death or Glory"

I’ll throw in “Spanish Bombs” too.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

London Calling was an album I came into late in life - my Uncle John who died of pancreatic cancer around 2003 left me a bunch of records and CDs (he was always my music guy in the family and was a manager, engineer and performer on a few albums, none no one would know) including London Calling. I immediately fell in love with it and made up for lost time playing it constantly.

Also, in that old school "All-time Rock Music" draft that I mentioned earlier, where tim dinged my "At Folsom Prison" pick for best live rock album, because it was "country and not rock" he also put me in last place in the best punk rock album slot where I chose this album because it was "ska not punk". Thank jeebus we stopped having judges for drafts here.

 

[rockaction]

Take the lawsuit part and use that if you want a minimum.

That's 25%. That's a lot.

I think the last line of "the early records look like a patchwork quilt of lawsuits waiting to happen" is funny.

And I did not come across this from AI. This is—and was—known. I just asked for time approximations because it's good with music theory. In fact, it helped me answer a longstanding question I had about Socrates, The Republic, and banning music for the Guardians of the Republic. It was able to trace the music theory of the Greeks in actual practice and was able to argue with me or agree with me on certain songs and groups that I thought Socrates would ban that were surprising.

For a long time, I had had Socrates banning the Beach Boys but allowing Metallica. If you're interested you can plug that in and see where it takes you. It's not always correct and you ought use it with caution, but as far as addition and subtraction and known lawsuits, it's pretty spot-on.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

If you want, I can list every derivative track album-by-album so you can see exactly where the copying clusters are — the early records look like a patchwork quilt of lawsuits waiting to happen.

That's up to you.

 

[rockaction]

If you want, I can list every derivative track album-by-album so you can see exactly where the copying clusters are — the early records look like a patchwork quilt of lawsuits waiting to happen.

That's up to you.

That's the machine talking. Should I?

 

[rockaction]

And I'm limiting it to the debut. The rest of the stuff I'm not worried about and don't want to kill the thread.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

If you want, I can list every derivative track album-by-album so you can see exactly where the copying clusters are — the early records look like a patchwork quilt of lawsuits waiting to happen.

That's up to you.

That's the machine talking. Should I?

I'm not arguing against you, nor interested enough to make you do all that work, so that's why it's up to you.

I do like "Custard Pie" though so if you can see who they stole that from.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

If you want, I can list every derivative track album-by-album so you can see exactly where the copying clusters are — the early records look like a patchwork quilt of lawsuits waiting to happen.

That's up to you.

That's the machine talking. Should I?

Nevermind, misunderstood at first, You were saying AI wrote that part.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

13. The Beatles (The White Album) – The Beatles (797 points)

Jeb #1
@BroncoFreak_2K3 #5
@zamboni #6
@Snoopy #7
@timschochet #8
@New Binky the Doormat #9
@Atomic Punk #10
@Long Ball Larry #13
@Scoresman #19
@Idiot Boxer #19
@Dwayne_Castro #28
@ConstruxBoy #30
@Tau837 #35
@Ghost Rider #46
@Pip's Invitation #52
@simey #55
@turnjose7 #67

The Beatles, commonly referred to as the White Album, is the ninth studio album and only double album by the English rock band the Beatles, released on 22 November 1968. Featuring a plain white sleeve, the cover contains no graphics or text other than the band's name embossed. This was intended as a direct contrast to the vivid cover artwork of the band's previous LP, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (1967). The Beatles is recognized for its fragmentary style and diverse range of genres, including folk, country rock, British blues, ska, music hall, hard rock, psychedelia and avant-garde. It has since been viewed by some critics as a postmodern work, and is retrospectively widely regarded as one of the greatest albums of all time. The album was the band's first LP release on their then-recently founded Apple Records after previous albums were released on Parlophone in the United Kingdom and Capitol Records in the United States.

 

[rockaction]

If you want, I can list every derivative track album-by-album so you can see exactly where the copying clusters are — the early records look like a patchwork quilt of lawsuits waiting to happen.

That's up to you.

That's the machine talking. Should I?

I'm not arguing against you, nor interested enough to make you do all that work, so that's why it's up to you.

I do like "Custard Pie" though so if you can see who they stole that from.

Considered totally original.

eta* and hopefully we can end the debate and get back to these albums that are wonderful. Peace.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

So I thought autocorrect or something.

Autocorrect is the Devil's Workshop. And I'm on a PC. (And I can spell.)

 

[Tau837]

I lean towards @rockaction 's take on this in regards to Zep, and I love Zep. But you cannot lift whole verses from someone else's songs, turn the amps to 11, and change the name of the record to a fruit without acknowledging the originator (or, whoever owns the rights) so that they get paid.

I don’t agree with them not crediting others where appropriate. But they obviously did much more than “turn the amps to 11 and change the name of the record.”

Sure, it is reasonable to say the other debuts were more original. That doesn’t mean the music was better.

You just managed to avoid the meat of the argument and give us a total straw man with revamped premises and goalpost shifting.

78% of the runtime (the total time of the tracks) on their debut is universally considered lifted.

It's not original in the least. And originality is certainly something to factor into one's decision about where to rank an album.

If you'd like to debate it, or keep at it—how about debating anything that I said in response?

Because you commented on my comment, and you have no answer for it, so you're going to take Uruk's hyperbole (who was making a sarcastic point not to be taken too literally), make it literal, shift the goalpost, and then make your counterargument???

Dude, don't. Just Win Baby!

I made no strawman and shifted no goalpost.

I'm not interested in debating your argument, and I could not care less about "winning" it. I'm not disputing what you assert Led Zeppelin did. And I don't particularly desire a lecture.

Let me make this as clear as I can for you.

1. "I don’t agree with them not crediting others where appropriate."

2. I think the music on Led Zeppelin I is better than the music on most of the other debut albums. Where they reused other artists' material, IMO they made it better, mostly much better.

3. Everyone is free to use whatever criteria they prefer to rank albums. For me, Led Zeppelin I ranks high. For you it doesn't. That's fine. We're all just posting our individual opinions here.

ETA:

Looking back, I responded to this statement by @rockaction : "I don’t think LZ1 beats any of these. Maybe Meat Loaf and Arcade Fire, but I don’t think necessarily so. LZ got plenty of love here for a hard rock band that borrowed so liberally from others that came before."

I responded with this: "Couldn't disagree more. I like many of these other albums, some quite a lot, but very few warrant being rated in the company of LZI. It's all opinions, so I'll just leave it at that."

I can see that I wasn't clear, which led to this entire tangent. I couldn't disagree more with your first sentence, which is your opinion. That's why I concluded with itls all opinions. As a long time Led Zeppelin fan, I'm aware of all the history you proceeded to post, and it's not something I would disagree with or characterize as opinion.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

13. The Beatles (The White Album) – The Beatles (797 points)

Jeb #1
@BroncoFreak_2K3 #5
@zamboni #6
@Snoopy #7
@timschochet #8
@New Binky the Doormat #9
@Atomic Punk #10
@Long Ball Larry #13
@Scoresman #19
@Idiot Boxer #19
@Dwayne_Castro #28
@ConstruxBoy #30
@Tau837 #35
@Ghost Rider #46
@Pip's Invitation #52
@simey #55
@turnjose7 #67

The Beatles, commonly referred to as the White Album, is the ninth studio album and only double album by the English rock band the Beatles, released on 22 November 1968. Featuring a plain white sleeve, the cover contains no graphics or text other than the band's name embossed. This was intended as a direct contrast to the vivid cover artwork of the band's previous LP, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (1967). The Beatles is recognized for its fragmentary style and diverse range of genres, including folk, country rock, British blues, ska, music hall, hard rock, psychedelia and avant-garde. It has since been viewed by some critics as a postmodern work, and is retrospectively widely regarded as one of the greatest albums of all time. The album was the band's first LP release on their then-recently founded Apple Records after previous albums were released on Parlophone in the United Kingdom and Capitol Records in the United States.

My kitchen wall:

https://imgur.com/a/Kd6vxPE

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I lean towards @rockaction 's take on this in regards to Zep, and I love Zep. But you cannot lift whole verses from someone else's songs, turn the amps to 11, and change the name of the record to a fruit without acknowledging the originator (or, whoever owns the rights) so that they get paid.

I don’t agree with them not crediting others where appropriate. But they obviously did much more than “turn the amps to 11 and change the name of the record.”

Sure, it is reasonable to say the other debuts were more original. That doesn’t mean the music was better.

They got SUED by others for over a dozen songs for not correctly crediting the sources. They were over the line in what they did and, in some cases (not enough), got penalized as they should have.

I never said a word about the quality of the music they made. In fact, I said I love their music in the very post you rolled your eyes at.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Also, in that old school "All-time Rock Music" draft that I mentioned earlier, where tim dinged my "At Folsom Prison" pick for best live rock album, because it was "country and not rock" he also put me in last place in the best punk rock album slot where I chose this album because it was "ska not punk". Thank jeebus we stopped having judges for drafts here.

I still remember the DIsney song draft. Bet Krista does, too.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

I lean towards @rockaction 's take on this in regards to Zep, and I love Zep. But you cannot lift whole verses from someone else's songs, turn the amps to 11, and change the name of the record to a fruit without acknowledging the originator (or, whoever owns the rights) so that they get paid.

I don’t agree with them not crediting others where appropriate. But they obviously did much more than “turn the amps to 11 and change the name of the record.”

Sure, it is reasonable to say the other debuts were more original. That doesn’t mean the music was better.

They got SUED by others for over a dozen songs for not correctly crediting the sources. They were over the line in what they did and, in some cases (not enough), got penalized as they should have.

I never said a word about the quality of the music they made. In fact, I said I love their music in the very post you rolled your eyes at.

Hence the strawman comment.

 

[kupcho1]

14. London Calling – The Clash (775 points)

I’m interested in what you guys think are the best deeper cuts on London Calling.

I listened to it the first time the other day. I’ve always liked the songs I’ve known from the radio and liked a Big Audio Dynamite album back in the day. They are a band that seem like they should be in my wheelhouse. However, the album didn’t click with me on first listen. I’d like give it another shot but a strategic skipping around might work better for me.

"Rudie Can't Fail" is probably the best. "Brand New Cadillac," "Clampdown" and others I'm probably forgetting.

eta* shoot. By best I mean "my favorite"

So many good songs it's hard to pick just one. So I think I'll go with side 3 (Clampdown, The Guns of Brixton, Wrong 'Em Boyo and Death or Glory) for the playlist as I think that's the strongest run on the album.

 

[Mister CIA]

Guessing a certain Irish band will grab the №1 ranking.

 

[Don Quixote]

Guessing a certain Irish band will grab the №1 ranking.

I’ve been waiting for The Cranberries to show up.

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Guessing a certain Irish band will grab the №1 ranking.

I will riot

 

[Mt. Man]

Guessing a certain Irish band will grab the №1 ranking.

So you're saying that there IS still hope for Thin Lizzy?