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Cuba - The Future (1 Viewer)

SaintsInDome2006

Footballguy
Raul Castro may or may not be quitting as leader of Cuba in 2018.

- And there are rumors his son may take over. And then again it's speculated that there may be elections. Right now we don't know. But I do know that there have been multiple good threads in the FFA over the years and we need one in TPF, even if it's just a placeholder for now.

- Personally I hope Cuba will be free and democratic one day, open to American travel and business, and a happy, prosperous place. Here's hoping it starts in 2018. ????

 
Obama banned wet foot dry foot policy - anti-Cuban

I'm not sure on Cuba travel bans etc, I've not heard anything. As I understand it, Cuba is like 40 years years frozen in time in many ways ... I think it'd be great for Cuban people to free themselves and turn Cuba into the #1 tourist destination in the world. I've read its gorgeous 

 
Some thoughts...

Cuba is very much frozen in time (the car I had was a 1951 Chevy and ran better than most of the cars I've owned in the US) . This isn't a resort type vacation destination, you go for the culture, the awe and the experience. I've traveled to many countries over the world and I tend to ask a lot of questions of the locals while I'm there as well as both of my tour guides. 

They love(d) Obama for many reasons when he opened things up here (and equally expressed some disdain for our current president for trying to roll the Obama policies back). They felt they were finally allowed to breath and come alive. None of the people I spoke to held any ill will at all toward Americans. They felt it was politics and only politics - I never experienced any sense of discrimination or danger based on being an American (I am fluent in Spanish which helped and always helps when I go to other countries and can speak their language, so your mileage may vary) . They were so happy to see Americans still risking the trip and lamented about a year prior to when things were completely open and American tourism was at an all time high. 

I went to tour the Ernest Hemingway house a few towns outside of Havana and arrived early. Saw an old man coaching a bunch of kids playing baseball in the lower yard of Hemingway's estate.. It wasn't a league, there was no official organization and all of their gear was at least 10 years old. I spoke to the coach a bit...all of the gear they received was from the US and given to them from the United States post Obama's visit. Supposedly, Michelle Obama had the same conversation with this coach and pledged some used baseball supplies from the US to keep the dream alive for this group of kids. Turns out they came through, but now it has stopped and they are back to doing their best with what they have. The coach was a volunteer, they had no uniforms, they were just out there loving baseball. It was a but depressing and also amazing at the same time. 

It was a really cool experience. I got to teach their best pitcher (a short 12 year old) how to throw a circle change and he taught me how to finally throw a knuckle ball. 

All these anecdotes sounds like praise Obama stuff, I know, and I don't really mean it to be. I disliked Obama too for most of his Presidency, I'm just relaying what I've seen and heard without our own propoganda clouding your judgment. This is a much better place under Obama's policies. It feels punitive that we and the Cubans got punished in the name of just reversing something because Obama had his name on it. 

The place is amazing. I hope we open things up. There is so much opportunity for growth there that it won't only be good for American business, but for good relations going forward. 

On the other side of the coin, for you capitalism loving Trump guys and Republicans, I was left with a strong impression as to why communism is not a good thing and can ruin a country. I saw it and heard it all first hand. 

First of all, one of my tour guides was a school teacher, and worked as tour guide as well. She still makes 40 dollars a month. Less than someone with little education or whom joined the military or worked in the government. She was very resentful of the style of government in Cuba. She was a hard worker and a very bright person but it just wasnt ever going to pay off for her. 

There seems to be less motivation to work here than anywhere I've been. On a Friday, there were more people out, drinking and smoking cigars than working in the middle of the day. Our tour guide commented on how construction projects in Cuba take years to complete and its very frustrating. During lunch I witnessed a gentleman painting a wall next to the restaurant we ate at. I've never seen someone paint slower. He spent the entire time BSing with people. He painted maybe 6 square inches over the course of an hour. This is indicative, I think of the worker motivation problem here. 

The sidewalks, streets, trash in the streets, trash on the beach, trash everywhere rivaled that of India. There seems to be a strong lack of motivation to "get stuff done". There's no one I encountered out of thousands of people that seemed like they were the type of people who hustled in life. The level of motivation was disappointing. I assume that's likely due to the fact that hustle and sweat don't get you any further in Cuba. Communism, in my opinion, kinda sucks. I think it could work if it adapted over the years to be an amalgam of the best things about capitalism and communism, but Cuba didn't do that and they suffered greatly I feel because of it. Their ideals are still straight out of  Russian 60s communism playboook. Where Russia adapted, Cuba did not. 

Anyway, just my impressions and opinions after spending time here and in lots of other places in the world. 

I hope our President comes to his senses on this. It could be really amazing for both countries. Also, if you get the opportunity to go to Cuba, go. 

Ps... All of this was typed from my phone, I'll go back later and edit the typos or anything over the top hyperbolic 

Pss... One thing that struck me, this country loves Che Guevera, more than Fidel I think. I personally have the opinion that, although he was a very bright guy who had some amazing ideas, he was a mass murdering dictator in the making. He lamented the Russians not firing off their missiles onto US soil and killing millions of people just for "progress". That said, I bought some books about him written from the Cuban perspective while I was there and will gladly change my mind post reading. I don't think he deserves the adoration he gets across the liberal movement. But that's for another thread 

 
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Some thoughts...

Cuba is very much frozen in time (the car I had was a 1951 Chevy and ran better than most of the cars I've owned in the US) . This isn't a resort type vacation destination, you go for the culture, the awe and the experience. I've traveled to many countries over the world and I tend to ask a lot of questions of the locals while I'm there as well as both of my tour guides. 

They love(d) Obama for many reasons when he opened things up here (and equally expressed some disdain for our current president for trying to roll the Obama policies back). They felt they were finally allowed to breath and come alive. None of the people I spoke to held any ill will at all toward Americans. They felt it was politics and only politics - I never experienced any sense of discrimination or danger based on being an American. They were so happy to see Americans still risking the trip and lamented about a year prior to when things were completely open and American tourism was at an all time high. 

I went to tour the Ernest Hemingway house a few towns outside of Havana and arrived early. Saw an old man coaching a bunch of kids playing baseball in the lower yard of Hemingway's estate.. It wasn't a league, there was no official organization and all of their gear was at least 10 years old. I spoke to the coach a bit...all of the gear they received was from the US and given to them from the United States post Obama's visit. Supposedly, Michelle Obama had the same conversation with this coach and pledged some used baseball supplies from the US to keep the dream alive for this group of kids. Turns out they came through, but now it has stopped and they are back to doing their best with what they have. The coach was a volunteer, they had no uniforms, they were just out there loving baseball. It was a but depressing and also amazing at the same time. 

It was a really cool experience. I got to teach their best pitcher (a short 12 year old) how to throw a circle change and he taught me how to finally throw a knuckle ball. 

All these anecdotes sounds like praise Obama stuff, I know, and I don't really mean it to be. I disliked Obama too for most of his Presidency, I'm just relaying what I've seen and heard without our own propoganda clouding your judgment. This is a much better place under Obama's policies. It feels punitive that we and the Cubans got punished in the name of just reversing something because Obama had his name on it. 

The place is amazing. I hope we open things up. There is so much opportunity for growth there that it won't only be good for American business, but for good relations going forward. 

On the other side of the coin, for you capitalism loving Trump guys and Republicans, I was left with a strong impression as to why communism is not a good thing and can ruin a country. I saw it and heard it all first hand. 

First of all, one of my tour guides was a school teacher, and worked as tour guide as well. She still makes 40 dollars a month. Less than someone with little education or whom joined the military or worked in the government. She was very resentful of the style of government in Cuba. She was a hard worker and a very bright person but it just wasnt ever going to pay off for her. 

There seems to be less motivation to work here than anywhere I've been. On a Friday, there were more people out, drinking and smoking cigars than working in the middle of the day. Our tour guide commented on how construction projects in Cuba take years to complete and its very frustrating. During lunch I witnessed a gentleman painting a wall next to the restaurant we ate at. I've never seen someone paint slower. He spent the entire time BSing with people. He painted maybe 6 square inches over the course of an hour. This is indicative, I think of the worker motivation problem here. 

The sidewalks, streets, trash in the streets, trash on the beach, trash everywhere rivaled that of India. There seems to be a strong lack of motivation to "get stuff done". There's no one I encountered out of thousands of people that seemed like they were the type of people who hustled in life. The level of motivation was disappointing. I assume that's likely due to the fact that hustle and sweat don't get you any further in Cuba. Communism, in my opinion, kinda sucks. I think it could work if it adapted over the years to be an amalgam of the best things about capitalism and communism, but Cuba didn't do that and they suffered greatly I feel because of it. Their ideals are still straight out of  Russian 60s communism playboook. Where Russia adapted, Cuba did not. 

Anyway, just my impressions and opinions after spending time here and in lots of other places in the world. 

I hope our President comes to his senses on this. It could be really amazing for both countries. Also, if you get the opportunity to go to Cuba, go. 

Ps... All of this was typed from my phone, I'll go back later and edit the typos or anything over the top hyperbolic 
Great stuff JB. Thanks. 

 
Some thoughts...

Cuba is very much frozen in time (the car I had was a 1951 Chevy and ran better than most of the cars I've owned in the US) . This isn't a resort type vacation destination, you go for the culture, the awe and the experience. I've traveled to many countries over the world and I tend to ask a lot of questions of the locals while I'm there as well as both of my tour guides. 

They love(d) Obama for many reasons when he opened things up here (and equally expressed some disdain for our current president for trying to roll the Obama policies back). They felt they were finally allowed to breath and come alive. None of the people I spoke to held any ill will at all toward Americans. They felt it was politics and only politics - I never experienced any sense of discrimination or danger based on being an American (I am fluent in Spanish which helped and always helps when I go to other countries and can speak their language, so your mileage may vary) . They were so happy to see Americans still risking the trip and lamented about a year prior to when things were completely open and American tourism was at an all time high. 

I went to tour the Ernest Hemingway house a few towns outside of Havana and arrived early. Saw an old man coaching a bunch of kids playing baseball in the lower yard of Hemingway's estate.. It wasn't a league, there was no official organization and all of their gear was at least 10 years old. I spoke to the coach a bit...all of the gear they received was from the US and given to them from the United States post Obama's visit. Supposedly, Michelle Obama had the same conversation with this coach and pledged some used baseball supplies from the US to keep the dream alive for this group of kids. Turns out they came through, but now it has stopped and they are back to doing their best with what they have. The coach was a volunteer, they had no uniforms, they were just out there loving baseball. It was a but depressing and also amazing at the same time. 

It was a really cool experience. I got to teach their best pitcher (a short 12 year old) how to throw a circle change and he taught me how to finally throw a knuckle ball. 

All these anecdotes sounds like praise Obama stuff, I know, and I don't really mean it to be. I disliked Obama too for most of his Presidency, I'm just relaying what I've seen and heard without our own propoganda clouding your judgment. This is a much better place under Obama's policies. It feels punitive that we and the Cubans got punished in the name of just reversing something because Obama had his name on it. 

The place is amazing. I hope we open things up. There is so much opportunity for growth there that it won't only be good for American business, but for good relations going forward. 

On the other side of the coin, for you capitalism loving Trump guys and Republicans, I was left with a strong impression as to why communism is not a good thing and can ruin a country. I saw it and heard it all first hand. 

First of all, one of my tour guides was a school teacher, and worked as tour guide as well. She still makes 40 dollars a month. Less than someone with little education or whom joined the military or worked in the government. She was very resentful of the style of government in Cuba. She was a hard worker and a very bright person but it just wasnt ever going to pay off for her. 

There seems to be less motivation to work here than anywhere I've been. On a Friday, there were more people out, drinking and smoking cigars than working in the middle of the day. Our tour guide commented on how construction projects in Cuba take years to complete and its very frustrating. During lunch I witnessed a gentleman painting a wall next to the restaurant we ate at. I've never seen someone paint slower. He spent the entire time BSing with people. He painted maybe 6 square inches over the course of an hour. This is indicative, I think of the worker motivation problem here. 

The sidewalks, streets, trash in the streets, trash on the beach, trash everywhere rivaled that of India. There seems to be a strong lack of motivation to "get stuff done". There's no one I encountered out of thousands of people that seemed like they were the type of people who hustled in life. The level of motivation was disappointing. I assume that's likely due to the fact that hustle and sweat don't get you any further in Cuba. Communism, in my opinion, kinda sucks. I think it could work if it adapted over the years to be an amalgam of the best things about capitalism and communism, but Cuba didn't do that and they suffered greatly I feel because of it. Their ideals are still straight out of  Russian 60s communism playboook. Where Russia adapted, Cuba did not. 

Anyway, just my impressions and opinions after spending time here and in lots of other places in the world. 

I hope our President comes to his senses on this. It could be really amazing for both countries. Also, if you get the opportunity to go to Cuba, go. 

Ps... All of this was typed from my phone, I'll go back later and edit the typos or anything over the top hyperbolic 

Pss... One thing that struck me, this country loves Che Guevera, more than Fidel I think. I personally have the opinion that, although he was a very bright guy who had some amazing ideas, he was a mass murdering dictator in the making. He lamented the Russians not firing off their missiles onto US soil and killing millions of people just for "progress". That said, I bought some books about him written from the Cuban perspective while I was there and will gladly change my mind post reading. I don't think he deserves the adoration he gets across the liberal movement. But that's for another thread 
Sorry for the hippling - just to say I was there in '98 and had roughly the same experience - except for the detente brought about by Obama's policy change. Back then the old people (50+ so too young to have participated in the revolution) were very likely to refer to the US as 'el inimigo'.

I hope you didn't change your opinion about Che - he was a true believer in violence as a path to something communist hegemony.

One day I'll brew a hoppy red ale with him, stalin and pol pot on the label called "Red *******" 

 
Sorry for the hippling - just to say I was there in '98 and had roughly the same experience - except for the detente brought about by Obama's policy change. Back then the old people (50+ so too young to have participated in the revolution) were very likely to refer to the US as 'el inimigo'.

I hope you didn't change your opinion about Che - he was a true believer in violence as a path to something communist hegemony.

One day I'll brew a hoppy red ale with him, stalin and pol pot on the label called "Red *******" 
Yeah I did NOT change my mind about him. I think he was true in his beliefs and that some were actually for good but yeah - he, like I said, was a murderous dictator in the making.  That said, I will say, you could clearly tell he didn't want power.  He wanted to travel the world bringing about revolution and his act must have gotten a little old for the Bolivians.  I read a lot about his time in Africa as well, he was so pissed off that none of the people were violent - he had trouble finding people who wanted to fight.  At some point, there's a foreigner coming into your country trying to get people riled up to possibly lose their lives in order to overthrow the government.  I thought that was karma to an extent.

One last note, I kinda slammed communism above and I'm going to do it again - in a respectful way.  

Free Health Care!  Free Education!  Obviously can be great things, but I read and heard that since they make so little money, a LOT of the good doctors and good teachers move out of the country to make better money and follow dreams.  So the education and healthcare, while free, is not on par with that in a capitalist nation.  It's good in that it applies to EVERYONE, but the pool of good doctors is very small and the best usually work directly and only for the heads of the government.

Could be a good thing, but like I said above - they needed to adapt the system over the years.

 
i usually post pictures of my crazy trips here, but going to keep them on facebook.  If any long term members here who I know pretty well want to sync up there - send me a PM

I have pictures there from Argentina, Chile, The Falklands, The Azores, Spain and Mallorca, Russia and all of Scandinavia

(just booked my next trip for Italy, Croatia and the Greek Islands)

 
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Free Health Care!  Free Education!  Obviously can be great things, but I read and heard that since they make so little money, a LOT of the good doctors and good teachers move out of the country to make better money and follow dreams. 
Our tour guides last year quit their jobs as attorney and engineer to become tour guides because they could make so much more money. It seems like one of the best options for jobs there were as tour guides, taxi drivers and other gigs where foreigners used cash for services/provided tips because the government can't really keep track of that as much.  

 
Our tour guides last year quit their jobs as attorney and engineer to become tour guides because they could make so much more money. It seems like one of the best options for jobs there were as tour guides, taxi drivers and other gigs where foreigners used cash for services/provided tips because the government can't really keep track of that as much.  
Yup ours was a teacher and she does the tour on the side to make some extra money

 
Yup ours was a teacher and she does the tour on the side to make some extra money
I met some young ladies who were doing a little on the side as well, if you know what I mean

ETA And everybody's uncle works in a cigar factory

 
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Fidel stayed and Cubans had to live under him. Che got to go away and die early, forever romanticized. 

 
I hope the Cuban people will be strong enough to get out from underneath the Castro reign .... they could commercialize Cuba and American's would pump hundreds of millions into that gorgeous island 

 
My wife works with a lady from Havana and she is very interesting to talk to about Cuba.  Most Cubans lead a very slow mundane life and really do not know any better as she explains it.  Keeping the masses dumbed down was necessary for Castro to stay in power forever. To be close allies with the USA would expose too many Cubans to a very different lifestyle, but one that could be in their grasp with new progressive leadership. So that will never happen.

 
This will hurt the 4 cruise lines out of Miami that travel to Cuba. And it will likely have little effect on Cuban policy toward Maduro. The 60 year embargo has failed to accomplish much except give the Cuban government excuses for their economic failures.
The 4 cruise lines that operated cruises to Mexico are:

Carnival

MSC

Royal Caribbean

Norwegian

Those 4 are not being "hurt"     :rolleyes:

 
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This will hurt the 4 cruise lines out of Miami that travel to Cuba. And it will likely have little effect on Cuban policy toward Maduro. The 60 year embargo has failed to accomplish much except give the Cuban government excuses for their economic failures.
The 4 cruise lines that operated cruises to Mexico are:

Carnival

MSC

Royal Caribbean

Norwegian

Those 4 are not being "hurt"     :rolleyes:
Just because they're not being bankrupted, that doesn't mean that they're not being hurt.

 
Just because they're not being bankrupted, that doesn't mean that they're not being hurt.
What a silly thing to say.  I agree that being bankrupt is not the only way to define hurt.

Their profitability will not be affected.  So not hurt.  Better?  Jesus

 
Just because they're not being bankrupted, that doesn't mean that they're not being hurt.
What a silly thing to say.  I agree that being bankrupt is not the only way to define hurt.

Their profitability will not be affected.  So not hurt.  Better?  Jesus
Of course their profitability will be affected.

Government should not be capriciously interfering with the free market.

 

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