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Democratic Debates (2 Viewers)

tonydead said:
Stop your trolling the Trump supporter in the thread crap and either offer your own opinions on the debate or GTFO. 
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Trolling?  I responded to his posts about the words in his posts.

You chimed in to attack me, call me trolling and tell me to GTFO?

Just stop man...not a good look.

 
Smack Tripper said:
I'm not making any endorsements or value judgements of him, I'm simply trying to ascertain what registers.  If its not authenticity, why does he connect with these people.  

These guys roll up their sleeves and take a nibble out of the corn dog at the Iowa State fair, do you think Mayor Pete is really at home with a big mac?  Do you think Biden has a sense of when McRib comes in and out of style?  I guarantee the people voting for Trump do and I guarantee you Trump does.  I'm sure Elizabeth Warren gets her info from the NY Times and Washington Post.  I also feel like Trump guides his perspective based on what he sees on TV, like most of these voters.  He's an everyman that doesn't have to fake things for a photo op.  A vulgarian, an oaf.  

Like most of your countrymen.
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Mayor Pete drives a Chevy Cruze :lmao:

I guarantee you Donald doesn’t 

 
Smack Tripper said:
Do you think Biden has a sense of when McRib comes in and out of style?  I guarantee the people voting for Trump do and I guarantee you Trump does.  I'm sure Elizabeth Warren gets her info from the NY Times and Washington Post.  I also feel like Trump guides his perspective based on what he sees on TV, like most of these voters.
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As an explanation of Trump's popularity, this is an accurate summary of what's wrong with modern American democracy.

 
AAABatteries said:
Smack Tripper said:
do you think Mayor Pete is really at home with a big mac?  Do you think Biden has a sense of when McRib comes in and out of style?  I guarantee the people voting for Trump do and I guarantee you Trump does.
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:mellow:  
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This is an excellent way to chose a world leader.   

"Hey, Carl!  You know when McRibs are back?" 

"I think sometime around Halloween.   Man, I love a McRib."

"You should run for President!"

 
Smack Tripper said:
I'm not making any endorsements or value judgements of him, I'm simply trying to ascertain what registers.  If its not authenticity, why does he connect with these people.  

These guys roll up their sleeves and take a nibble out of the corn dog at the Iowa State fair, do you think Mayor Pete is really at home with a big mac?  Do you think Biden has a sense of when McRib comes in and out of style?  I guarantee the people voting for Trump do and I guarantee you Trump does.  I'm sure Elizabeth Warren gets her info from the NY Times and Washington Post.  I also feel like Trump guides his perspective based on what he sees on TV, like most of these voters.  He's an everyman that doesn't have to fake things for a photo op.  A vulgarian, an oaf.  

Like most of your countrymen.
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Trump literally ####s in a golden toilet. Yeah, he understands the common voter. They connect with him because he's a snake oil salesman.

And yes, I fully believe Buttigieg knows what a Big Mac is. And when to get a McRib sandwich.

 
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-fish- said:
This is an excellent way to chose a world leader.   

"Hey, Carl!  You know when McRibs are back?" 

"I think sometime around Halloween.   Man, I love a McRib."

"You should run for President!"
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Or you could try the pretend drink a beer on Instagram. One of those is disingenuous. 

 
Smack Tripper said:
Trump won last time as a cartoon character buffoon.  An oaf.  

He's running now with an actual track record and a track record of success to the average american in terms of their number one consideration, their own life.  Employment is up and I don't think its not unfair to say that trend started under Obama.  It also is totally irrelevant in terms of this election, its a strong point to run on.  He gets to pick these guys apart on their advocacy of open borders while he's got a very clear contrasting opinion to that.  He's also an oaf and a slob who puts out white house spreads featuring three different kinds of fast food (3!).  Many of these people are abject phonies, but I think trump fits the old Bill Clinton line from George Carlin "he may be full of **** but at least he's honest about it"
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The economy is definitely good, but Trump doesn't get the "good economy" boost you'd expect because of his low approval ratings. Trump and the GOP presided over a great economy in 2017-18 and voters responded by kicking 40 GOP house members out of office, the biggest Dem gain since '74. That doesn't happen under normal circumstances. He definitely has a path to victory in 2020, but arguments like "the economy is good!" aren't as salient when the incumbent in question is so polarizing. 

 
sho nuff said:
He connects because he lies and tells them what they want to hear.  He has conned people for years and continues  to do so.  Its not authentic..any of it.
An every man?   :lmao:
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All I can tell you is, when you put Trump up against the leading candidate right now in Warren, who was a republican for most of her life, who paraded around as a blue eyed indian because her "mama" told her it was true, you think Americans aren't going to know who's snowing them and who's not?  

Trump, once again, a troglodyte, has more or less done what he's said he's going to do in terms of most of the substance, on a macro level.  I know there's no shortage of places where he did come up short, did the wall get built?  No but we get our video clips of segments of it or whatnot.  Did the economy improve, did he work out trade deals, did he bring any troops home?

Most people are not paying attention yet.  How many Americans know Elizabeth Warren, because they will.  Whats going to land with people?  I think one of the overriding governors of Joe SixPack is some sense of fairness so if the blonde chick was taking the spot of some American Indian or other minority at Harvard, and listen, she wrote that on her own application or transcript and she was lauded as their first professor of color, so these are still issues, once this turns into proper blue vs. red sport, Its not gonna go over strong.  

Again, no dog in this fight, I just think the Trump phenomenon is fascinating and he will define the rest of our lives as a figure where we say how did that happen.  So that question is what fascinates me, what was so stark in opposition that he was possible, that he was created.  

If you think I'm wrong, why am I wrong, why or how did he win with these people and what's going to be different this time?  Because what I'm presuming was your dislike and distaste in 2016 didn't change in 2020 but he actually has a record to go on this time

 
sho nuff said:
He connects because he lies and tells them what they want to hear.  He has conned people for years and continues  to do so.  Its not authentic..any of it.
An every man?
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I do think that Trump comes off as an everyman -- as in, a non-elitist. He can't spell. He's totally uninformed about everything. He's "one of us" if we are a significant portion of the American electorate.

I think there's a big cultural divide in this country between the elitist snobs and the unpretentious rubes. It's a divide that causes mutual resentment.

The elitists, with their fixation on proper grammar and accurate facts and whatnot, are condescending and smug and generally deserve to be punched.

About half the country feels that way, with some justification, and they correctly view Trump as just about the only presidential candidate who isn't guilty of that offense. I mean, he is condescending and smug, but he is condescending and smug to the elitists. So ... yay.

 
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caustic said:
The economy is definitely good, but Trump doesn't get the "good economy" boost you'd expect because of his low approval ratings. Trump and the GOP presided over a great economy in 2017-18 and voters responded by kicking 40 GOP house members out of office, the biggest Dem gain since '74. That doesn't happen under normal circumstances. He definitely has a path to victory in 2020, but arguments like "the economy is good!" aren't as salient when the incumbent in question is so polarizing. 
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I don't know, maybe.  I know he was not looking good in polls last time and he won.  Maybe he had a great team around him, he did some pretty shrewd last minute campaigning for a guy we considered a complete dolt last time, so maybe they're still in place or maybe they're gone.  I think you frequently get those midterm swings though, the opposition base is almost always more motivated as a reaction rather than the lack of urgency in the incumbency.  And now to that action, another reaction, where Trumps base doesn't like that result and they turn out in force.

 
Smack Tripper said:
I don't know, maybe.  I know he was not looking good in polls last time and he won.  Maybe he had a great team around him, he did some pretty shrewd last minute campaigning for a guy we considered a complete dolt last time, so maybe they're still in place or maybe they're gone.  I think you frequently get those midterm swings though, the opposition base is almost always more motivated as a reaction rather than the lack of urgency in the incumbency.  And now to that action, another reaction, where Trumps base doesn't like that result and they turn out in force.
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I've said it a million times. Tons of shenanigans going on on both sides. He came out of #####gate and crushed Hillary in the third debate. It was all over after that. 

 
Smack Tripper said:
All I can tell you is, when you put Trump up against the leading candidate right now in Warren, who was a republican for most of her life, who paraded around as a blue eyed indian because her "mama" told her it was true, you think Americans aren't going to know who's snowing them and who's not?  

Trump, once again, a troglodyte, has more or less done what he's said he's going to do in terms of most of the substance, on a macro level.  I know there's no shortage of places where he did come up short, did the wall get built?  No but we get our video clips of segments of it or whatnot.  Did the economy improve, did he work out trade deals, did he bring any troops home?

Most people are not paying attention yet.  How many Americans know Elizabeth Warren, because they will.  Whats going to land with people?  I think one of the overriding governors of Joe SixPack is some sense of fairness so if the blonde chick was taking the spot of some American Indian or other minority at Harvard, and listen, she wrote that on her own application or transcript and she was lauded as their first professor of color, so these are still issues, once this turns into proper blue vs. red sport, Its not gonna go over strong.  

Again, no dog in this fight, I just think the Trump phenomenon is fascinating and he will define the rest of our lives as a figure where we say how did that happen.  So that question is what fascinates me, what was so stark in opposition that he was possible, that he was created.  

If you think I'm wrong, why am I wrong, why or how did he win with these people and what's going to be different this time?  Because what I'm presuming was your dislike and distaste in 2016 didn't change in 2020 but he actually has a record to go on this time
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Yes. I think Americans understand that Trump is more dishonest and fake than even Warren.  Why I think you are wrong is his approval rating...the 2018 elections and that I have faith in the people of this country understanding the mistake made in 2016

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I do think that Trump comes off as an everyman -- as in, a non-elitist. He can't spell. He's totally uninformed about everything. He's "one of us" if we are a significant portion of the American electorate.

I do think there's a big cultural divide in this country between the elitist snobs and the unpretentious rubes. It's a divide that causes mutual resentment.

The elitists, with their fixation on proper grammar and accurate facts and whatnot, are condescending and smug and generally deserve to be punched.

About half the country feels that way, with some justification, and they correctly view Trump as just about the only presidential candidate who isn't guilty of that offense. I mean, he is condescending and smug, but he is condescending and smug to the elitists. So ... yay.
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Oh i think he has convinced people of that...he is great at marketing.  But he has always been an elite and projected as a  symbol of elite.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
As an explanation of Trump's popularity, this is an accurate summary of what's wrong with modern American democracy.
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I don't disagree.  But I don't know how modern a phenomenon this is.  Really why would JFK have won after Ike's time, but we can allow there was a superficial quality that manifest past policy?   Thats one example off the top of my head.  I don't know when this golden age of an informed electorate in america was

 
sho nuff said:
Yes. I think Americans understand that Trump is more dishonest and fake than even Warren.  Why I think you are wrong is his approval rating...the 2018 elections and that I have faith in the people of this country understanding the mistake made in 2016
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If Americans understand the mistake made in 2016 why is Hillary 2.0 the top Dem candidate right now?  :lmao:

 
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tonydead said:
If Americans understand the mistake made in 2016 why is Hillary 2.0 the top Dem candidate right now? 
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Partially because she got millions more votes than Trump.   With some actual attention to the electoral college, they think they can run the same campaign with some money spent differently and get a different result.

 
Smack Tripper said:
You think these people are tearing into policy?  These decisions are made on hairstyles and teeth and height and the dumbest crap you can imagine.  Trump came through 11 republicans and a massive Clinton machine and you think one of these people is going to put a dent in whatever it is he does?  I don't dispute that he can be out-wonk'ed but no one is registering like he will, again now with a track record.
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Yeah- there's like this tv entertainer intangible Trump has that 99% of politicians don't.  They like that he's an insult comic.  They like that he's flippant about white house decorum.  They like that he rails against the media and his political enemies.  He's not a Rhodes scholar, and they're ok with that.  Dems underestimate him at their own risk.  

 
Smack Tripper said:
I don't disagree.  But I don't know how modern a phenomenon this is.  Really why would JFK have won after Ike's time, but we can allow there was a superficial quality that manifest past policy?   Thats one example off the top of my head.  I don't know when this golden age of an informed electorate in america was
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I think it's pretty modern. A few decades ago, people didn't have up-to-the-minute information about which candidates ate McRibs (or put mustard on their burgers, or donned tan suits, etc.). They also didn't have up-to-the-minute misinformation courtesy of facebook memes and the like. I think the informational landscape has changed relatively recently in a way that made it possible for Trump to get elected. A candidate like Trump wouldn't have had a chance back in JFK's time, I don't think.

 
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-fish- said:
Partially because she got millions more votes than Trump.   With some actual attention to the electoral college, they think they can run the same campaign with some money spent differently and get a different result.
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That's a thin hook to hang your hat on. Explains all the desperation I guess. 

 
I think the big winner tonight was Sanders because he looked healthy and energetic after his heart attack. That will allay some fears about his ability to serve.

After that, Buttigieg because his answers were clear, sensible, intelligent.

The big loser was probably Warren because she didn't stand out the way a front-runner might be expected to.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I think the big winner tonight was Sanders because he looked healthy and energetic after his heart attack. That will allay some fears about his ability to serve.

After that, Buttigieg because his answers were clear, sensible, intelligent.

The big loser was probably Warren because she didn't stand out the way a front-runner might be expected to.
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I don't know where to put Bernie.  Agree that he seemed no worse for the wear whatsoever.  But what is the precedent for people with health conditions running?  I cant think of anyone who had any sort of issue getting far.  I do think it probably hurt Hilary to have her fainting.  So I'll put him off on her own.

I think Pete and Klobuchar were the only ones who moved forward and I think both did so markedly.  Pete was way above Amy at that.  

Tulsi flopped after gaining some kind of traction these past few weeks, she is toast.  Ditto Beto, Yang, Castro and this choad who bought his way in.   I think if we are to believe Booker, he's done too based on the fundraising drive, but who knows.  Warren was fine, I think he did well handling the shots, but she didn't exactly move forward.  But sometimes just not moving backwards is a win.   

 
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Smack Tripper said:
I don't know, maybe.  I know he was not looking good in polls last time and he won.  Maybe he had a great team around him, he did some pretty shrewd last minute campaigning for a guy we considered a complete dolt last time, so maybe they're still in place or maybe they're gone.  I think you frequently get those midterm swings though, the opposition base is almost always more motivated as a reaction rather than the lack of urgency in the incumbency.  And now to that action, another reaction, where Trumps base doesn't like that result and they turn out in force.
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I think it's fair to revisit the circumstances surrounding 2016. Trump did not get sent to the WH with a sweeping popular mandate, but with a nationwide deficit of three million votes and a razor-thin electoral college margin of 70,000 votes across three states. All this against the most unpopular Democratic nominee in history, who was the subject of an FBI investigation that was re-opened 10 days before the election. The smart thing for Trump to do over his first term would've been to broaden his support to strengthen his re-election run, in which he will probably not be facing someone so deeply unpopular and scandal-plagued. Trump has done the opposite of that - he's doubled down on the "base turnout" theory, refusing to reach out to groups other than those who already adore him. Against a stronger opponent than the least popular Democratic nominee of all time, that might not be enough to put him over the edge, even with the electoral college advantage. We'll see.

 
tonydead said:
Name 5 differences. Go!
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1. Warren for Medicare for All, Hillary opposed. 

2. Warren anti-trade, Hillary generally for free trade (until she weakly changed her mind on TPP.) 

3. Warren wants wealth tax; Hillary opposed. 

4. Warren wants to split up big tech companies; can’t imagine Hillary is for that. 

5. Warren for free education through college, Hillary for helping out those who can’t afford but otherwise no. 

That was easy. 

 
timschochet said:
1. Warren for Medicare for All, Hillary opposed. 

2. Warren anti-trade, Hillary generally for free trade (until she weakly changed her mind on TPP.) 

3. Warren wants wealth tax; Hillary opposed. 

4. Warren wants to split up big tech companies; can’t imagine Hillary is for that. 

5. Warren for free education through college, Hillary for helping out those who can’t afford but otherwise no. 

That was easy. 
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Yuck. Add 5 more negatives to the only thing that matters:

tonydead said:
The only one that matters: likeability. 
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caustic said:
The economy is definitely good, but Trump doesn't get the "good economy" boost you'd expect because of his low approval ratings. Trump and the GOP presided over a great economy in 2017-18 and voters responded by kicking 40 GOP house members out of office, the biggest Dem gain since '74. That doesn't happen under normal circumstances. He definitely has a path to victory in 2020, but arguments like "the economy is good!" aren't as salient when the incumbent in question is so polarizing. 
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I would agree but this also requires running a candidate against him that neutralizes the economy. I think the issues that got Trump elected in terms of job displacement and wage stagnation still exist and he didn’t do a good job of addressing them. But putting a socialist on the ticket isn’t going to flip PA or MI. At that point, you’re just hoping he does something really dumb in the few weeks leading up to the election. 
 

If Warren wins the nomination, in my opinion the election becomes about healthcare and the view on the economy. Again, I don’t think the way you win back the Midwest is by pushing socialized healthcare. And unless she comes back more to the center on her economic plans, I’d say the same thing. She calls herself a capitalist and used to say some reasonable things but she’s gone a bit overboard on all that. 

 
dkp993 said:
Didn’t get a chance to watch, read the last few pages but didn’t see much.  How did Yang do?
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Solid overall. 

Real good answers on the Freedom Dividend vs Guaranteed govt jobs for all, combating automation, and what do do with large tech firms.  Healthcare plan and opioid crisis answers were in line with the moderates. 

I thought his foreign policy answer wasn't good.  He practically said the US meddles in other countries' elections.

He keeps talking about Trump's election being a symptom of a larger problem and offers his take on solutions to the underlying problem.  The guy is clearly a forward thinker.  When other candidates were focus on what we've done wrong in the past, he identified what we need to be working on in the future.  His closing comments tied up the night well.   He will be answering questions for 10 hours on Yang2020 website this friday if interested in more.

 
Max Power said:
Solid overall. 

Real good answers on the Freedom Dividend vs Guaranteed govt jobs for all, combating automation, and what do do with large tech firms.  Healthcare plan and opioid crisis answers were in line with the moderates. 

I thought his foreign policy answer wasn't good.  He practically said the US meddles in other countries' elections.

He keeps talking about Trump's election being a symptom of a larger problem and offers his take on solutions to the underlying problem.  The guy is clearly a forward thinker.  When other candidates were focus on what we've done wrong in the past, he identified what we need to be working on in the future.  His closing comments tied up the night well.   He will be answering questions for 10 hours on Yang2020 website this friday if interested in more.
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Thanks.  Every time I hear this guy I like him more and more. He’s my clear favorite at this point.  

 
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