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Disney Vacation (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter DOVCommish
- Start date
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
Capella
Footballguy
3 hour lunch
Footballguy
Thanks- didn’t know that on Magic Key, that helps. We are actually staying closer to San Diego most of the trip but are up in the air for that first weekend. Would be cool to stay in Anaheim but with our later Friday flight times I’m not sure we will end up staying close to DL.
The Commish
Footballguy
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
In the same boat here. We're taking the kids and my in-laws in January and I'm already annoyed about how much work is going into this "vacation." To be fair I wouldn't have chosen a giant amusement park as a vacation destination anyway but this sounds especially frustrating. I'm envisioning standing in line for 2 hours for a ride I don't want to go on, watching seasoned pros cut in front of us repeatedly because they're running apps on three different phones to optimize their experience. My wife was stressed out weeks ago about booking reservations for meals we'll be eating two months from now. Trying to stay positive but I haven't even been there yet and I'm already convinced I never want to go back.
Redwes25
Footballguy
In the same boat here. We're taking the kids and my in-laws in January and I'm already annoyed about how much work is going into this "vacation." To be fair I wouldn't have chosen a giant amusement park as a vacation destination anyway but this sounds especially frustrating. I'm envisioning standing in line for 2 hours for a ride I don't want to go on, watching seasoned pros cut in front of us repeatedly because they're running apps on three different phones to optimize their experience. My wife was stressed out weeks ago about booking reservations for meals we'll be eating two months from now. Trying to stay positive but I haven't even been there yet and I'm already convinced I never want to go back.
Yup, they have ruined the experience. I am heading to Orlando around Christmas to visit family and not even going to Disney this time. Going to spend a couple days at Universal and staying at their luxury property to take advantage of some of those perks and not worrying about all the planning.
Capella
Footballguy
Yup. They’ve pretty much ruined the whole experience for everybody, but in particular people who just want to go once with their kids and experience the place. It’s pretty dumb.In the same boat here. We're taking the kids and my in-laws in January and I'm already annoyed about how much work is going into this "vacation." To be fair I wouldn't have chosen a giant amusement park as a vacation destination anyway but this sounds especially frustrating. I'm envisioning standing in line for 2 hours for a ride I don't want to go on, watching seasoned pros cut in front of us repeatedly because they're running apps on three different phones to optimize their experience. My wife was stressed out weeks ago about booking reservations for meals we'll be eating two months from now. Trying to stay positive but I haven't even been there yet and I'm already convinced I never want to go back.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
I get it. Basically, I don’t want to be tied to my phone while there but apparently I’m not going to have any choice unless we want to be waiting in line all day.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
I’d kinda like to be “in the moment” with my kids. Last time we’re going as a family and I’d like to experience it through them, not tied to my phone the entire time.
Capella
Footballguy
Hey I get it. It sucks. We were there this time last week and I spent a 45-minute period on my phone trying to figure out what to do next…and we are regulars. It blows.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I don’t want to derail the thread with anything resembling a socioeconomic or political take but suffice it to say that I think Capitalism and Greed play a decent role in the issues we are describing. I could be wrong but I think Walt would be kind of mortified by some of it.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
As of 2 weeks ago at Disney, TP did not work with lightning lane at all. They have said they are working at integrating it though. My experience was also that it did not handle Early Entry well at all either. It was great the rest of the day otherwise.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
And even if you spend a bunch of time, everything is so unclear/inconsistent that you may find it different than what you expect anyway.
We planned on rope dropping Adventureland and Frontierland on our first morning there only to find ourselves herded back to Fantasyland. Turns out that only Fantasyland and Tomorrowland are currently open at Early Entry. And even then, outside of Space Mountain and 7 Dwarfs, there is no real guarantee as to what other rides will be running or when they’ll start. Disney’s website certainly doesn’t say anything about it and I managed to not read it on any of the dozens of webpages I had viewed before going.
glvsav37
Footballguy
I dont think its as simple as those 2, but they play a part.
for starters, we need to level set and remember that the parks were closed for an unprecedented amount of time. The only time you could align this to was after 9-11 where while the parks were technically open, travel was very very low to almost nothing.
So starting with that, there is a ton of financial catch up that the parks need to do.
I am not a parks division defender at all times, but there was a certain level of non-greed shown when Dis kept paying for insurance and health benefits for even low level CMs at the beginning of the shut down. Granted, no one knew fully what we were in for, but it was a gesture that was not fed by greed.
As or the current state of the parks, you say capitalism is a play here, but the real question is: why not? Mid-November and the parks are at summer/holiday level crowds. No one is stopping people from coming. So what is incentivizing WDW from changing anything? Capitalism is profiting off of what people are willing to pay for and there were people lined up with their wallets out everywhere you looked.
They may seem greedy, with things like the paid FP, but truthfully, they got boned on it by being the 1st. They came out with this great system and said "look at us" then every other park in the country copied and monetized it. Unfortunately WDW was too deep into their goodwill that they needed something big to change that....enter Covid.
Where I think Disney is failing badly is on the transparency of the technology. They drop this G+ thing on us and pretend it will make our day so magically easier. When in the end it is all about collecting guest data, habits and spending. They have become the Google and FB of the theme park world. They have invested billions in that stuff vs investing in the actual park entreatment. Yes we have gotten new attractions, but it has mostly been drag and drop clones of those in other parks.
IMO the company has gotten too bloated and have taken their focus off the guest experience. You could call it capitalism or greed, but its also a product of being too big. Projects take multiple years to complete, announcements made and then drastically scaled back b/c too many hands are involved in it, and the push to be "more inclusive" is being used as a huge "look at us" rally rather then just allowing the attractions to entertain.
By contrast, look at UO don the block. They may not have the nostalgia or history of a WDW, but they are gaining in polarity by leaps and bounds. Most projects are completed in 18 months, they let the resorts be run by hotel people, they are head long into a new park that will take less time than building the Galaxy's edge land and they just let the guests come and experience the resort.
Capitalism and green go hand in hand...as long as you have investors, you'll have people looking for a return. However today I dont think you have the leadership team who can make that happen while still putting the right lipstick on it and calling it entertainment. While Iger was not a true parks guy, you can't deny the moves he made (SW and Marvel) benefited the parks in a huge way. Before him you had the Esiner era who was an entertainment executive by trade (TV and movies) but cut from the same crazy, forward thinking PT Barnum cloth that benefited the parks and guests. The big difference is that Eisner had Frank Wells, who was the Roy Disney to Eisner's Walt. Wells was able to figure out the financing and profit for all of Eisner's crazy ideas. The financial side was insulated from the entertainment side, but he kept Disney stock rock solid. Once Well's died, Eisner could not be the same guy he was before and projects fell apart.
IDK what has to change but something has to happen soon. But I really think it needs to come from the guests. If they keep ringing those turn styles, there is nothing to keep this current team from charging more and more. Realistically, WDW needs a 5th gate to spread out the crowds. However given their average development time, if they dropped a shovel today, it wouldn't be ready in my lifetime. So they just keep slapping band-aide after band-aide on the parks, or look for some miraculous technology to be the answer to what is an entertainment problem.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
Yeah, definitely just a part of it but I truly feel like Walt had a vision and a passion and while maybe some of that was monetary, I think most of it wasn’t. He would be innovating and pushing the envelope even if it meant hurting the bottom line. It feels like the bottom line is about the only thing that motivates Disney leadership now. Probably unfair of me to frame it that way but it’s how I feel about it.
glvsav37
Footballguy
lol. They started clearing land before the pandemic, and while construction is back on, it seems the supply chain issue has slowed them again.
Alicia over at the Orlando Park Stop podcast does a great job keeping up to date on UO/Epic Universe.
So while nothing has really gone vertical yet, its amazing to see the amount of land cleared and ready.
However if you and your son cant wait, Universal California is about 1/2 way done with their Mario World, so you can swing out there and see it before it opens in Orlando. No official opening date released just yet.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I very well may be way off with my Pollyanna-ish take but I won’t derail things any more.
glvsav37
Footballguy
you're not wrong, its an opinion shared by many. And its also OK to say that Bob Chapik is not the most charismatic, likable guy, unlike past Disney CEO's. That position, esp in that company, is just as much of playing the role of "we want everyone to come and have fun" as it is creating huge shareholder value. As mentioned before, some former CEO's had a sidekick who had to do the dirty money work, while the COE got to be the big, fun thinker.AAABatteries said:
I think a lot of us as still confused about Iger leaving the company to Chapik. There were others who could have been better (at least on the surface). Plus you have a bunch of directors and managers below him that are doing good things and/or much more charismatic who we fear may eventually leave the company b/c they cant reach that CEO role
Trust me, I am one of the biggest pro Disney guys there is, and I am not very optimistic about the current direction
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Capella
Footballguy
Oh I think it’s interesting I just don’t think Walt was a princely person. But he probably would not have liked the parks only being available to those with means (he would have taken less fortunate people’s money too
)
glvsav37
Footballguy
Destination D23 kicks off today in Orlando. It is one of the Disney Community's largest gather where many new ventures and attractions are announced.
Sometimes things come out ofd the blue, or sometimes there are (not so) subtle hints.
One of my sources just posted a picture of the Original Dreamfinder's Dreamcatcher vehicle—the big steampunk ballon bike thing from the original ride—on display at the event. hint???? Could Imagination be finally getting its overdue refurb?? IDK?
Sometimes things come out ofd the blue, or sometimes there are (not so) subtle hints.
One of my sources just posted a picture of the Original Dreamfinder's Dreamcatcher vehicle—the big steampunk ballon bike thing from the original ride—on display at the event. hint???? Could Imagination be finally getting its overdue refurb?? IDK?
glvsav37
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Yeah, I'm getting there. Boarding plane home in about 45. Been here all week. Not a fan of being in the phone the whole time.
I'm sure we will get used to it, but it's a shame disney decided to go into the hotel business and ignore the actual experience in the park that built the empire. Maybe they will figure that out soon.
harryhood
Footballguy
What keeps you in the phone all day? Is it the small amount of reservations you can make so you constantly need to make more? Or just trying to rely on the app for where to go next?
glvsav37
Footballguy
the app is designed to "guide you" through your day. It is constantly refreshing with wait times, suggestions on where to go next, lightening lane reservation times, etc.
On the last item, one thing I found frustrating is that you couldn't pick a return time for your lightening lane selections, it was mostly "next available." So for me, I wanted a reservation later in the day, so I had to keep checking the app to see when that window would open up. I was always nervous of missing the window I wanted to target.
Also, they are pushing you to mobile order more of your food. Some of those locations also had windows of time you would need to fit into. So you are constantly playing this game of "how much longer will I be on this ride? So if I order now, will I be done in time?"
The whole app is a little intimidating, esp for someone using it for the 1st time.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Best to have genie plus and lightning lane for all four parks?
glvsav37
Footballguy
yes/no
I would say they are a must at MK and Studios
AK is a toss up depending on crowd volume
Epcot is really not needed right now unless you really need to save time
glvsav37
Footballguy
@fruity pebbles, I'll expand on that.
MK and Studios has the most amount of attractions right now, and with the chaos at Studios w/ Rise, it makes sense to maximize G+ and LL there. I wouldnt imagine doing either of those parks without the old fastpass system simply bc there is just too much to do there and you need to minimize your time in line, so the $15 G+ is no different.
As for the paid individual LL attractions at MK, depending on your party, 7DMT would be a begrudging yes, but Space mountain could be done very early in the day for a low wait. Then use the LL selections throughout the day fro the other mountains and popular rides.
At studios, sadly your day will be handcuffed to it. With Rise, Slinkydog and MM Railway being so popular along with the other older rides like TS Mania, RnRC and ToT having constant long lines, you'll need to use the app heavy and pay for those upgraded LL's.
By contrast, you could rope drop AK and do Flight of Passage early on to save time there. Also Everest does have a single rider line so you can take advantage of that or just bite the bullet and go standby. It will usually be lower wait than FoP. After that, AK has a ton of attractions with large capacity—safari, Lion King, Bugs life, etc. Dinosaur might be the only other reason for that G+ lighting lane reservation b/c that is slow loading and can get a long standby line.
Then at Epcot, that park is such a mess that there is not a ton to do (depending on your party). Remmy is the real draw here, but you can roll the dice and shoot for a boarding group in both the AM and afternoon. You'll still be waiting on a decently long line, but its at least free. (note there is no standby here, only paid LL or Boarding group lottery right now). Frozen is the other paid LL attraction and personally I dont need to go on it, so its lost on me.
That leaves you really SSE, Soarin and Test Track. Anything else is pretty much a walk on right now. If you have a full day at Epcot, the you can do all of these easily. If you only have a 1/2 day then you may want to upgrade to G+ to get a LL for at least one or 2 of these.
thats my opinion at least, hope that helps.
MK and Studios has the most amount of attractions right now, and with the chaos at Studios w/ Rise, it makes sense to maximize G+ and LL there. I wouldnt imagine doing either of those parks without the old fastpass system simply bc there is just too much to do there and you need to minimize your time in line, so the $15 G+ is no different.
As for the paid individual LL attractions at MK, depending on your party, 7DMT would be a begrudging yes, but Space mountain could be done very early in the day for a low wait. Then use the LL selections throughout the day fro the other mountains and popular rides.
At studios, sadly your day will be handcuffed to it. With Rise, Slinkydog and MM Railway being so popular along with the other older rides like TS Mania, RnRC and ToT having constant long lines, you'll need to use the app heavy and pay for those upgraded LL's.
By contrast, you could rope drop AK and do Flight of Passage early on to save time there. Also Everest does have a single rider line so you can take advantage of that or just bite the bullet and go standby. It will usually be lower wait than FoP. After that, AK has a ton of attractions with large capacity—safari, Lion King, Bugs life, etc. Dinosaur might be the only other reason for that G+ lighting lane reservation b/c that is slow loading and can get a long standby line.
Then at Epcot, that park is such a mess that there is not a ton to do (depending on your party). Remmy is the real draw here, but you can roll the dice and shoot for a boarding group in both the AM and afternoon. You'll still be waiting on a decently long line, but its at least free. (note there is no standby here, only paid LL or Boarding group lottery right now). Frozen is the other paid LL attraction and personally I dont need to go on it, so its lost on me.
That leaves you really SSE, Soarin and Test Track. Anything else is pretty much a walk on right now. If you have a full day at Epcot, the you can do all of these easily. If you only have a 1/2 day then you may want to upgrade to G+ to get a LL for at least one or 2 of these.
thats my opinion at least, hope that helps.
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soothsayer
Footballguy
My fam will be in Orlando for a late Christmas in early January and we aren't even considering going to the parks. We'll likely walk around Disney Springs and eat at Ohana - that's it.
When my kids were younger I actually LOVED all the planning and research it took to get ready for days at the parks. But back then, all the pre-work meant I could kick everyone's a$$. Going to the parks then - with all kinds of awesome knowledge from sites like Tour Guide Mike - it wasn't difficult to be MILES ahead of everyone else in the park. At the same time, there weren't enough of us doing all that planning to make the experience suck for everyone else either. Everyone was happy.
Even though I'd love to spend a day at MK or HS now, it's a non-starter for me.
harryhood
Footballguy
Arrived on Thanksgiving and luckily decided to rearrange some park reservations to just do AK and Epcot over this busy holiday weekend. I couldn't believe how busy everything was including Springs but sounds like par for the course during the holiday.
Rough day for the Epcot crew today and I'm sure many people spent their last (disappointing) day there before heading back home. It was slammed.
Test Track closed down between 10:30a and 1:00p and then again at 7p. Its still closed as of this post.
We were in the VQ for Remy at 6:00 when it closed indefinitely for the rest of the evening due to unknown issues.
Frozen closed today as well for what appeared to be 2ish hours.
Lots of cast members are going to need an extra pour after this evening wraps up I'd imagine.
Hopeful things turn around for the rest of the week as we have 2 days each at HS and MK between Monday and Friday including the Christmas party. Was luckily having a 1am cocktail on the porch last night when a text alert came through for 440pm 'Ohana availability for Monday. Great start to the 2nd half of the trip and relieved we didn't get shut out this year as we've never missed it. I had waived the white flag when we arrived thinking there's no way something was going to pop up that worked with out schedule.
Rough day for the Epcot crew today and I'm sure many people spent their last (disappointing) day there before heading back home. It was slammed.
Test Track closed down between 10:30a and 1:00p and then again at 7p. Its still closed as of this post.
We were in the VQ for Remy at 6:00 when it closed indefinitely for the rest of the evening due to unknown issues.
Frozen closed today as well for what appeared to be 2ish hours.
Lots of cast members are going to need an extra pour after this evening wraps up I'd imagine.
Hopeful things turn around for the rest of the week as we have 2 days each at HS and MK between Monday and Friday including the Christmas party. Was luckily having a 1am cocktail on the porch last night when a text alert came through for 440pm 'Ohana availability for Monday. Great start to the 2nd half of the trip and relieved we didn't get shut out this year as we've never missed it. I had waived the white flag when we arrived thinking there's no way something was going to pop up that worked with out schedule.
rodg12
Footballguy
I was on my phone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less with Lightning Lane than FP+. I’m not really getting the ‘on the phone all the time now’ comments. We bought new charging blocks to take in our backpacks to charge our phones during the day like we had to do in 2017 every day and didn’t use them a single time
You can only book an attraction once for Lightning Lane. FP+ didn’t have that limitation. So, we booked more rides on FP+. Also, you could change the time of the FP+ booking, so we would be on the phone the entire time in the FP+ line or waiting for a show or waiting for a reservation trying to move our next one up sooner or flip it to one of the major rides.
Now with Lightning Lane we basically chose what ride we wanted next in the Lightning Lane line and put the phones in our bags. Would check for wait times as well, but that’s not different than before.
You can only book an attraction once for Lightning Lane. FP+ didn’t have that limitation. So, we booked more rides on FP+. Also, you could change the time of the FP+ booking, so we would be on the phone the entire time in the FP+ line or waiting for a show or waiting for a reservation trying to move our next one up sooner or flip it to one of the major rides.
Now with Lightning Lane we basically chose what ride we wanted next in the Lightning Lane line and put the phones in our bags. Would check for wait times as well, but that’s not different than before.
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wlwiles
Footballguy
Ugh. Had a training conference scheduled for a whole week in Orlando in February and was hoping to test out the G+ system and everything while it was just me. Our family is the typical "go once a year for a week" type but haven't been since May 2019. Had a May 2020 trip canceled bc COVID, and didn't go at all in 2021 so jonesing for some Mouse.
Anyway, the training got canceled today, postponed until Q2 and now it may not be in Orlando anymore. Sad trombone.....
Anyway, the training got canceled today, postponed until Q2 and now it may not be in Orlando anymore. Sad trombone.....
Rand al Thor
Footballguy
Everything I posted before about stacking Lightning Lane tickets - you can forget about it. It was apparently an unplanned glitch in their system and they have now closed that loophole. You can read all about it here - No More Next Level Stacking
You can still stack to some extent by waiting until 11am to make your second reservation, but on a crowded day, it's probably not worth it b/c supposedly everything good is gone by 2pm. If I were to ever go again, I'd get my first pass for Peter Pan sometime around 10:30-11:30. This is assuming you have little kids that have to ride this ride. It's a head scratcher to me why anyone would ever wait more than 10 minutes for this ride. Anyway, get there at rope drop, ride Pirates, Thunder Mountain, Splash Mountain and then Haunted Mansion, in that order. At 11, get your second LL pass for Buzz Lightyear, and then go ride Peter Pan. Then pay your 7 bucks per for the Space Mountain pass and save 7 Dwarves at the 8pm firework show. That takes care of the headliners and hopefully Jungle Cruise still has some availability in the evening. There's still ways to stack somewhat, but without the rolling stack, it's not worth it.
You can still stack to some extent by waiting until 11am to make your second reservation, but on a crowded day, it's probably not worth it b/c supposedly everything good is gone by 2pm. If I were to ever go again, I'd get my first pass for Peter Pan sometime around 10:30-11:30. This is assuming you have little kids that have to ride this ride. It's a head scratcher to me why anyone would ever wait more than 10 minutes for this ride. Anyway, get there at rope drop, ride Pirates, Thunder Mountain, Splash Mountain and then Haunted Mansion, in that order. At 11, get your second LL pass for Buzz Lightyear, and then go ride Peter Pan. Then pay your 7 bucks per for the Space Mountain pass and save 7 Dwarves at the 8pm firework show. That takes care of the headliners and hopefully Jungle Cruise still has some availability in the evening. There's still ways to stack somewhat, but without the rolling stack, it's not worth it.
Capella
Footballguy
Putzed around in my little golf cart for like 3 hours today just looking at stuff. Went into the store, got some lunch, picked up some stuff for the cabin, putzed back. I’ve fully transformed into a 65-year-old man.
Joe Mammy
Footballguy
Capella
Footballguy
At guest services at Epcot and some guy is in here ranting and raving that he can’t get on remy. “What do you mean we can’t get on the ride, WE PAID TO BE HERE”
”But sir it’s a virtual queue you had to secure a pass to the ride at 7 am or 1:00” (me during this, watching the blood leave this guy’s face:
)
He stormed out screaming “this whole place is a joke” — another satisfied customer.
”But sir it’s a virtual queue you had to secure a pass to the ride at 7 am or 1:00” (me during this, watching the blood leave this guy’s face:
)He stormed out screaming “this whole place is a joke” — another satisfied customer.
jb1020
Footballguy
Sorry sir, there are no refunds at Disney.At guest services at Epcot and some guy is in here ranting and raving that he can’t get on remy. “What do you mean we can’t get on the ride, WE PAID TO BE HERE”
”But sir it’s a virtual queue you had to secure a pass to the ride at 7 am or 1:00” (me during this, watching the blood leave this guy’s face:
He stormed out screaming “this whole place is a joke” — another satisfied customer.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Is it really ruined to have an alternative to standing around and waiting? You can still do that.
I grew up 90 minutes from Disney so I spent plenty of time there 20 years ago. It's not like you could just walk on the rides then. I remember walking into the end of the line at Splash Mountain/Space Mountain at the same spot the standby line typically ends at today.
Lines are definitely a bit longer overall, which is to be expected with a lot more people going there, but the reality is if you went 25 years ago you were going to spend most of your time in line anyway. Having an alternative for the geeks that want to plan ahead like they're organizing a fantasy football draft isn't necessarily a bad thing. You can still do it the "old" way.
I remember waiting 2 hours in line for Splash Mountain in 1995 when fast passes didn't exist and again in 2002 (when Fastpasses were in-person and too much of a pita to bother with). Having an option to spend 3 days at the park without ever waiting half that long for a ride with some legwork upfront is a good thing, imo. It's not a requirement any more than it was 25 years ago when it didn't exist.
Just my .02c.
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Capella
Footballguy
Redwes25
Footballguy
I think it is more that it is just a giant planning mess. The whole system is frustrating that you need to pick your restaurants 6 month in advance and even then you might not get into the ones you are more interested in. Need to plan around fast passes, etc. It is just frustrating that they continue to make the entire expereience more complicated.
Of all the system, I think the old paper fast pases were the best system.
glvsav37
Footballguy
FreeBaGeL said:
Actually you can't.
and stuff like this is only going to get worse now that they have legitimized adding a $ figure to an attraction.Capella said:
Today its Remmy's (Paid LL or Virtual Queue lottery only), for the last few months it was Rise. I would make a very safe bet that as soon as Tron and Guardians opens it will be the same, pay or press your luck.
Its funny b/c we compare WDW vs UO all the time. But in this instance it's completely reversed. OU's up-charge Express pass works for every ride....except anything brand new. Wanted to ride Hagrids in the first 6 months of it being open...wait in line. Want a spin on JP Volocercoaster.....the queue starts over there. But its 5 hours long?
But you'll at least get to ride itBut I hear you on the rest of you post. THey have to do something b/c the parks are just too crowded and those of us in the know, or as you said—the plan ahead geeks—can take advantage of a system designed to make our park day easier. But its not, and with each new "Solution" WDW rolls out, you need a masterclass in using it. I remember writing up posts in this tread for 1st timer tips and 1/2 way through my hands would cramp b/c i was writing a novel. No vacation should require that much work. And as @Capella mentioned above, this guy was prob a 1st timer, now will never be back and will tell everyone he knows how ####ty WDW is. IMO, they are walking a very thin balance beam of what people will accept right now
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Captain Cranks
Footballguy
So what's week long stay for four in hell setting an out of state family back nowadays? Include flight costs, four day passes, hotel on Disney premises, rental car, the whole nine.
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Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
I’m enjoying a $15 drink loaded with booze at the Bay Lake Towers pool bar. That is all.
