I don't think Carter was as much overpaid as Hackett seems to be underpaid in this market. I think all 32 teams (well 31 not including Seattle) would have taken a long look at Hackett if they felt they could get him for that price.
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DJ Hackett a Carolina Panther (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter southeastjerome
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
I just think they were payed their market value. WAS supposedly offered Hackett the minimum. IMO Hackett is a lot closer to Carter than he is to Berrian and I think that's what came to fruition on the market.Sweet Love said:
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
reportedly CAR assured hackett he would start opposite smith (which isn't earth shattering, i'm sure many would have expected him to start), & that probably factored into his decision... though not sure who would have started in front of him in TB opposite galloway, & randle-el in WAS probably better fit as slot WR, he may have been favorite to play WR2 there, too...hackett was hindered by a high ankle sprain most of the season... hurt it game one, played three exceptional games, than reinjured it & didn't do much thereafter... so he is a question mark in terms of durability... but he has flashed some serious talent in limited action... in three healthy games, he had something like 20+ receptions & a TD in each game... carter had many more games played, but i think had as many as 5 receptions once all season (he was no doubt hurt by delhomme's absence)... he is faster than hackett (& has elite speed), but in comparing them, carter doesn't look like he has as natural hands, is as comfortable inside, or as versatile a route runner & weapon...
as for delhomme, 33 isn't ancient for a QB...
deangelo may not have proven he can carry the load (as a pro), but i don't think there is much cause to assume he will be a downgrade over foster (maybe you meant they have less depth at position now with foster's departure?)... he has had a higher YPC average in limited action, & by the eyeball test, appeared far more explosive & dangerous in the open field...
deangelo is dissed by some for being a tiny scat back, & not feature RB material (actually a lot of RBs aren't feature RBs in a conventional sense anymore, with many in a RBBC)... i think he is roughly the same size as emmitt smith was when he came out of college, with similar stocky, compact, powerful lower body with mammoth, tree trunk legs... he also has the speed to take it the distance... he probably isn't as fast now, but i think he was fastest arkansas prep in his class (about a 10.7 or 10.8 100 m)... some RB attributes i like even more, at his best he flashes very desireable RB traits such as vision, cutback ability & natural running instincts...
for those in thread who haven't seen him in a while & forgot or never saw them, here is youtube highlights... my favorite run was about 1:30 mark, replayed a few times... in last version, he makes four cuts from left side to pop free down the right sideline for a long TD run... at the 2:54 mark, look at how quickly he scoots into the second level, gets on top of the safeties & splits them, than explodes past them in the open field...
memphis may not have faced the most challenging competition, but at his senior bowl & combine deangelo showed he was a man among boys and dominated the RB class*...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWHHiJBURSM
CAR has had a marginal run game since the wheels came off stephen davis, partly imo due to detriorating OL play, but also fox's stubborn insistence on featuring the less explosive foster (in fairness, deangelo may have need some work in pass protection, as do many young RBs)... IF deangelo makes good on his opportunity & shines like he did as a highly graded collegiate, this could help the passing game a lot more than some here may be accounting for...
& of course that works both ways... if hackett can stay healthy & proves the best complemement to smith since a younger mushin muhammad, this could do wonders for the running game, & help spread the field more... deangelo is at his most dangerous in space, on plays like screens & draws... on some of the plays in the highlight package he is reminiscent in physical stature & movement skills of brian westbrook... they are both bigger than you think (so to speak), deceptively strong & won't be arm tackled... it usually takes a solid shot to bring them down (which is not always easy to get by a DB in the open field, due to their outstanding vision, instincts, cutback ability & elusiveness)...
* edit/ADD - this part may seem overreaching... bush (& i think maroney) couldn't be at senior bowl, & bush went far higher... i'm sure some front offices valued bush more overall due to his faulk-like receiving skills... & bush also extremely dangerous in space with his open field running skills (but seemingly not as good getting through the OL & untracked)... however, i also think it likely that some front offices found williams to be better PURE runner... in college he was a standout in a class that has featured some pretty good young runners, including maroney & addai...
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meanjoegreen
Footballguy
Hackett and Carter aren't close at all. Hackett has great hands, and Carter has hands of stone.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Close in terms of value in the FA market.
meanjoegreen
Footballguy
I think Hackett has more value, because I think he has proven to be a better player than Carter. His injuries are his black eye. He is healthy right now, and he is a player that has the upside to be a high calibar player, and the Panthers got him at a great price, and the contract is short term which makes it low risk. I think it's a good signing for the Panthers and Hackett.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
- Sorry, I never buy the "yeah but in his defense he was injury prone last year" argument. Based on the deal he signed not many people in the NFL do either. He may be more talented than Carter but I'm not convinced Carter won't be just as productive over the course of a season. He's been almost as productive as Hackett thus far. I won't hold the fact Carter was healthy and available in more games against him.- True on Delhomme but as I said in my post he had one very good season, followed by a good season, followed by last year. It's not as if this is a 33yo that had a great run of seasons behind him. This a 33yo that had a very good season in 2005.- Right, I'm saying... Foster/DWill > DWill/Toefield?
BoltBacker
Footballguy
It's a great deal for CAR because they have him locked in for 2 years at very little $. If he's injury prone again this season, no problem just release him(or for that matter keep him for that small contract).It's an awful deal from Hackett not because of the $(I presume if anyone thought he was worth more $ they would have offered him a lot more weeks ago) but because he's locked into low $ not just this year but next year no matter how well he plays.People here in the shark pool have been too high on Hackett for close to two years now. I can't believe it's still going on now that we've actually found out unequivocally what his value is on the open market.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
never is a big word... i don't view missed time from a high ankle sprain as necessarily a death blow to a players subsequent career?do you see williams an upgrade over foster as starter, or a wash? i realize that CAR could end up taking a RB in first round (depending for instance on if stewart &/or mendenhall fall), but for now williams is atop the depth chart... PHIs RB position may have had more depth when they had westbrook, staley & buckhalter, but when staley departed & c-buck was hurt, PHIs run game became better, not worse, by allowing westbrook a chance to become featured more prominently...* edit/ADD - i think you are right in inferring from the lack of willingness to pay hackett much on open market there is some healthy scepticism about his ability to stay healthy... i don't think we can infer from that they don't think he could do well if healthy... just that they don't want to take a chance on it...clearly if hackett breaks out, a few teams that could have used a WR2 &/or big WR (like WAS, TB) are going to be kicking themselves... the amount of money garnered coming off a down year may prove no where close to what his intrinsic value will look after a potentially healthy season...you didn't really dispute the contention that hackett is more well rounded, more versatile route runner & has better hands... ANYTHING is possible, but if they are both healthy, given carter's limitations relative to hackett (the only things i see as superior from carter is speed, & i think he is taller, & anyways, hackett has shown he is plenty fast enough to play the position in the NFL, get open & make plays), i'll continue to think hackett has more potential until i'm given reason to see otherwise...
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
Well, Matt Millen only runs one team. There are 30 other owners out there that didn't seem to offer him much $ either. Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe the shark pool has been way too high on him that past two years. I like Fox as a coach. I don't see Williams as an improvement over Williams. If Fox honestly would have felt Williams would have given CAR the best chance to win last year I think he would have used Williams more last season. The only difference is if Williams can't handle a full load their other option(so far) is likely Toefield. In truth I think they end up with a draft pick or S.Alexander to share time... because I don't think a backfield of Williams/Toefield is nearly as good as the backfield they had last season.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
And it's not like he signed in the first few hours of FA and nobody had a shot at him either. He's been sitting out there for WEEKS. WAS brought him in, mulled it over, and reportedly offered him the minimum.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
or possibly williams was the far more gifted runner, but inexperience in pass protection made fox reluctant to feature him more, & some of those doubts have been answered to his satisfaction... by your same logic, if fox was convinced foster was as good, he might have kept him, no?yes, they could draft a replacement, but its not like the team doesn't have plenty of holes on the OL & DL where they would also like to spend that pick...foster's YPC average last season was 3.5... williams 5.0... if you can't appreciate the significant disparity in their explosiveness, we'll just have to agree to disagree...
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simey
Footballguy
Last year Randy Moss's value was a 4th round pick. That worked out pretty well for the Patriots. Carolina isn't spending a load of money on Hackett, and he immediately upgrades their WR corps, so the risk is worth the possible reward. I'd much rather have Hackett and Moose this year instead of Colbert and Carter, and the Panthers got Hackett and Moose for bargain prices. Carolina also has Steve Smith, and their two rookies from last year Dwayne Jarrett and Ryne Robinson. I feel more comfortable with the WR's this year versus the last few years.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I'm not saying anything disparaging about Williams, just that I'm not convinced he can carry the full load. If he could carry a full load and was much better than Foster than Fox is an idiot(I don't think he is).When I mentioned a draft pick I wasn't saying he'd be replaced, just teamed with someone better than Toefield. Alexander seems like a natural fit and is still better than Toefield.This is pretty much the exact same argument people had last year with regard to Norwood, Reggie Bush and Jones-Drew heading into last year. I wasn't sold that those guys were FT RB's either. We really won't know until after the season.
Tau837
Footballguy
Interesting perspective. They are both entering their 4th year. Let's compare them:Carter - 71/977/8 in 33 games over 3 seasonsHackett - 105/1394/9 in 33 games over 3 seasonsOver the last two seasons:Carter - 30 games, 66/874/7 in 30 games - average of 2.2/29.1/0.23 per gameHackett - 20 games, 77/994/7 receiving - average of 3.9/49.7/0.35 per gameI guess we differ on the definition of "almost". More importantly, Hackett has been a player who, when healthy, warranted consideration as a fantasy starter. Carter hasn't.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I really think this is the most over-used example in the shark pool. Randy Moss wasn't traded for only a 4th round pick because of health or ability. Has absolutely nothing in common with DJ Hackett's situation.
Tau837
Footballguy
How is it the same?
Bush, Jones-Drew, and Norwood all had other feature caliber RBs on their teams... Williams has Toefield and Brad Hoover at this point. That is not the same.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
again, you seem to be excluding the possibility that williams wasn't featured more in his initial seasons due to perceived blocking deficiencies relative to foster (which have maybe been since answered, seeing as foster was released & all)... that wouldn't make fox stupid... it would just mean he values pass protection a lot...norwood was never as highly regarded a prospect in college as deangelo... i recognize flaws in bush, too, as i noted upthread, i think williams has superior pure RUNNING skills (though clearly bush is better receiver)... i think the panthers & deangelo owners alike would be very happy if he proves as good as jones-drew...also, regarding hackett vs. carter, i think carter could be better actual WR than fantasy force... carter is a good fit in that he is a tall deep threat that can fly, & russell has a cannon for an arm, so he may score a few long TDs a season (he could be a poor man's anthony miller or michael haynes in right situation)... but i don't think he will be as consistent as hackett, especially in PPR leagues... plus steve smith much better than curry, & will demand more double teams, which should create a lot of space for hackett to work underneath...
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
So based on the data you've supplied over the last two years...33/437/3.5 production per year
vs
39/497/3.5 production per year
... like I posted earlier I'm not one to really give credit for the "But wait! He was injury prone over that time, so he's also got that working for him! And it gets wose... that other guy was healthy which should work against him!". Yes, that's more of an advantage in FF where you can just cut players and pick up starters off the WW(in some leagues) but much less so in real football or even in deep FF leagues. On a per game basis your argument is stronger but I think when teams go into the season they need a productive season, not just a few productive games which is likely why FF people just won't accept Hackett is worth what the market would bear and nothing more.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Last year everyone said "look at their y/c, how can you not think they'll get the bulk of the carries this year!". Plenty of people thought all three would have a much higher work load than any of the old RB's that were supposed to get phased out in front of them. Just go look at the ADP from last season. Plenty of your "feature caliber RB's" were drafted after the bench player that was going to easily replace them.How is it the same?Bush, Jones-Drew, and Norwood all had other feature caliber RBs on their teams... Williams has Toefield and Brad Hoover at this point. That is not the same.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Lawrence Phillips was a more highly regarded prospect in college than either I believe.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
That's because I don't feel I've seen enough CAR games from last season to make a fair assessment as to whether that was the reason he was getting so few carries or not. Also, because I saw few CAR games last season I can't really comment if his pass blocking did indeed improve.I've just been in a thread very similar to this before last season when plenty of people were 100% sold he'd take over last season. We'll see. He should get the majority of carries with Toefield if that is their starting backfield.
Michael Fox Fan
Footballguy
Let's make it simple:- Hackett has produced when healthy, but he's been injured. His upside, then, will come from staying healthy.
- Carter has not produced when healthy. It is unclear what his source of upside will be, if any.
Tau837
Footballguy
I notice you cut this out of my post:
Do you disagree with it?More importantly, Hackett has been a player who, when healthy, warranted consideration as a fantasy starter. Carter hasn't.
Tau837
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
I agree with you that many people unjustifiably expected Bush, MJD, and Norwood to do more last season than they did. Personally, I was one of the biggest detractors of MJD's preseason expectations around here for that reason, and I never really expected much from Norwood. I did expect more out of Bush, though.In any event, once again, my point here is that you drew a parallel between the situations of Bush, MJD, and Norwood to Williams' situation. But there is no valid comparison as of right now. Williams' situation would be similar to Bush's if the Saints had cut McAllister last offseason... and similar to MJD's if the Jags had cut Taylor... and similar to Norwood's had the Falcons cut Dunn... but none of those things happened. ETA: Or it would be similar if the Panthers had not cut Foster.People aren't really here saying Williams is going to get the majority of the carries and be a force because he produced well in limited opportunities last season... they are saying he is going to do those things because he is going to get the bulk of the RB opportunities, with no one else but Toefield and Brad Hoover around.If the Panthers sign someone else or draft a RB, then that may change. But as of right now, that is not the situation.Last year everyone said "look at their y/c, how can you not think they'll get the bulk of the carries this year!". Plenty of people thought all three would have a much higher work load than any of the old RB's that were supposed to get phased out in front of them. Just go look at the ADP from last season. Plenty of your "feature caliber RB's" were drafted after the bench player that was going to easily replace them.How is it the same?Bush, Jones-Drew, and Norwood all had other feature caliber RBs on their teams... Williams has Toefield and Brad Hoover at this point. That is not the same.
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
I actually replied to it when I said, "Yes, that's more advantage in FF where you can just cut players and pick up starters off the WW(in some leagues) but much less so in real football or even in deep FF leagues". If you're in average or smallish type leagues that you are better off with boom or bust type players.I notice you cut this out of my post:Do you disagree with it?More importantly, Hackett has been a player who, when healthy, warranted consideration as a fantasy starter. Carter hasn't.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
True, but as of right now we also don't know if Williams is capable of handling the load as the FT RB.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I realize this is the general consensus of this message board. I'm less than convinced that this is the feeling of people making decisions in the NFL.
