Does dealing with bad traders ever frustrate you? (1 Viewer)

[renesauz]

I guess the bottom line is that I don't give a #### what you do in trades...but the way you describe is not doing yourself any favors. I want to make it as easy as possible for me to improve my team - that means giving info to the other team even if they make a poor offer.

It's been my experiance that the unsolicited lowball offers generally come from owners I can't make win-win deals with anyway. Like I said...I win $$$$ every year, so something in my method is working.

 

[ThePittbully]

My favorite is when guys send lowball offers and then when you respond with a reasonable counter they start bashing the guy they were trying to trade for. Hilarious.

 

[Sweet Love]

Help me to understand:Why does a simple deal out of the blue require an explanation when it's rejected?I'm not trying to be obtuse. I really don't understand. Sometimes I CAN'T explain. Sometimes I simply want the guy I aquired. Why does this make me a "bad trader"?

Maybe we're on slightly different pages. You're talking about requiring "an explanation". As a potential trade partner, I don't need to know details why you value him as you do. I just need an idea of what you value him at so I have an idea on how to proceed in talking about a trade, or if it's worth pursuing.Here's how it feels on the other end of someone who just hits the "reject" button. Picture yourself going into a store and trying to buy something and having it go like this.You: I'd like to buy this.Clerk: Ok.You: Um... ok, can I buy it for $2?Clerk: No.You: Can I buy it for $3?Clerk: No.You: Can I trade in my old one and buy it for $1.50?Clerk: No.You: How about you work with me and give me an idea of what it costs?Clerk: It costs $3.25. -or- That object isn't for sale.I don't really care why it costs $3.25 or isn't for sale. Just tell me, it isn't that hard to type, "I can't see a win-win trade for him that both of us would accept." Or even better, "I'm most interested in improving at WR3 and back up QB, but I don't see a win-win trade between us there."To me half of it is simple common courtesy and half of it is working in your own self-interest. For all you know the guy may say, "I don't like Matt Schaub at all this year and would trade him if you think he'd be an improvement at back up QB."I'll also add, you seem to be taking this as owners sending a trade out of the blue only. That isn't the case when I run into it. I always call, email, or send a blurb on the trade offer. Because I think that is also both common courtesy, and again, in my own best interest.

You're talking about something entirely different here. Your scenario is not a simple out of the blue offer. I'm not saying that counters and negotiations are NEVER required. I'm saying they shouldn't be expected for every simple unsolicited offer, ESPECIALLY when such offers have no explanation or alternatives attached. IN my experiance, 9 of 10 offers are both simple and unsolicited. 7 of 10 are BELOW market value. Why should I bother responding to an unsolicited below market offer for a guy I probably value above the market? My simple check of the rejection button is enough. If you're willing to pay above market...you'll offer again or ask. ETA: If an offer comes with any kind of alternative or explanation, I'll respond with SOMETHING (a counter or explanation) virtually every time. We aren't that far apart.

Exactly...and this is a perfect example as to why you need to come strong. Greg, in your example, you were willing to pay $3, but you opened with $1.50 (half the value). Do you walk into a Honda dealership and say to yourself, "Looks like list this on this is 30k...guess I am going to start at 15k". Of course you don't. You know there is a loose value based on specific parameters (you can negotiate roughly 2k at best). Why is that different in fantasy? I need to respond to your initial offer when 5 minutes later you would have offered me double?? How about starting at double and then turing the conversation the other way (i.e. This is a great deal, you are nuts not to take it). I certainly would have been nuts to take your first deal...BTW, people need to understand that League Management Systems don't always send a message back (for example, I am on MFL but I do not subscribe to emails...therefore, when someone rejects a deal, I don't see why they did so). Gone are the days when you called someone and hashed out each other's rosters...

 

[SouthJersey]

I also think if you know the other owners in your league, making a phone call goes a long way in getting a deal done vs sending an offer via the site or shooting over an email.

 

[GregR]

Help me to understand:Why does a simple deal out of the blue require an explanation when it's rejected?I'm not trying to be obtuse. I really don't understand. Sometimes I CAN'T explain. Sometimes I simply want the guy I aquired. Why does this make me a "bad trader"?

Maybe we're on slightly different pages. You're talking about requiring "an explanation". As a potential trade partner, I don't need to know details why you value him as you do. I just need an idea of what you value him at so I have an idea on how to proceed in talking about a trade, or if it's worth pursuing.Here's how it feels on the other end of someone who just hits the "reject" button. Picture yourself going into a store and trying to buy something and having it go like this.You: I'd like to buy this.Clerk: Ok.You: Um... ok, can I buy it for $2?Clerk: No.You: Can I buy it for $3?Clerk: No.You: Can I trade in my old one and buy it for $1.50?Clerk: No.You: How about you work with me and give me an idea of what it costs?Clerk: It costs $3.25. -or- That object isn't for sale.I don't really care why it costs $3.25 or isn't for sale. Just tell me, it isn't that hard to type, "I can't see a win-win trade for him that both of us would accept." Or even better, "I'm most interested in improving at WR3 and back up QB, but I don't see a win-win trade between us there."To me half of it is simple common courtesy and half of it is working in your own self-interest. For all you know the guy may say, "I don't like Matt Schaub at all this year and would trade him if you think he'd be an improvement at back up QB."I'll also add, you seem to be taking this as owners sending a trade out of the blue only. That isn't the case when I run into it. I always call, email, or send a blurb on the trade offer. Because I think that is also both common courtesy, and again, in my own best interest.

You're talking about something entirely different here. Your scenario is not a simple out of the blue offer. I'm not saying that counters and negotiations are NEVER required. I'm saying they shouldn't be expected for every simple unsolicited offer, ESPECIALLY when such offers have no explanation or alternatives attached. IN my experiance, 9 of 10 offers are both simple and unsolicited. 7 of 10 are BELOW market value. Why should I bother responding to an unsolicited below market offer for a guy I probably value above the market? My simple check of the rejection button is enough. If you're willing to pay above market...you'll offer again or ask. ETA: If an offer comes with any kind of alternative or explanation, I'll respond with SOMETHING (a counter or explanation) virtually every time. We aren't that far apart.

Right, when I made the post that started this I wasn't talking about out of the blue offers. I don't make out of the blue offers on a website. I email or call first. I prefer them to make the first offer unless it's a case of our teams having a great match of needs and surplus to where the trade writes itself.Though even with what you're talking about, I would still rather treat them like any other offer and negotiate with them normally and try to swing something that improves my team. I've never received a single fantasy point for taking umbrage with an offer. I have however been low-balled initially but still managed a beneficial trade in the end.

 

[FantasyTrader]

To some in this thread: you might be part of the problem?

 

[Your Mom]

I hate the guys who send offers along with an explanation of why this is an awesome deal for me, and a risky deal for them....especially when they're trying to get one of my studs in exchange for 2 average guys.

Exactly. When it comes from a guy that is one of the worst owners in the league it is even worse.My biggest problem with bad traders is the guy who really is hurting at a position. Last year, in a start 2 QB league, one of the better teams only had 1 QB. He had to get another QB if he wanted to win the whole thing. I had 4 QBs, so I was willing to deal. My team was middle of the pack, so I was trying to get into the playoffs. All I was looking for was a decent RB or Wr to start for me. The guy was offering Darren Sproles. Take it or leave it offer from him. He is the one that needs a QB if he wanted to win the thing. Drives me nuts. Response was no thanks and I moved on and he couldn't believe I didn't accept it. So he is on the list that I will not waste my time with unless he sends me an offer that is at least respectable.

 

[dagwood]

I hate the guys who send offers along with an explanation of why this is an awesome deal for me, and a risky deal for them....especially when they're trying to get one of my studs in exchange for 2 average guys.

Exactly. When it comes from a guy that is one of the worst owners in the league it is even worse.My biggest problem with bad traders is the guy who really is hurting at a position. Last year, in a start 2 QB league, one of the better teams only had 1 QB. He had to get another QB if he wanted to win the whole thing. I had 4 QBs, so I was willing to deal. My team was middle of the pack, so I was trying to get into the playoffs. All I was looking for was a decent RB or Wr to start for me. The guy was offering Darren Sproles. Take it or leave it offer from him. He is the one that needs a QB if he wanted to win the thing. Drives me nuts. Response was no thanks and I moved on and he couldn't believe I didn't accept it. So he is on the list that I will not waste my time with unless he sends me an offer that is at least respectable.

This type of story has little value unless we know which RB you wanted from his roster and which QB you were dangling. If you were offering me Chad Henne and asking for Arian Foster, I would probably have giving you a take it or leave it offer of Sproles. Now if were offering Ben Roethlesberger (because you had A.Rogers) and only wanted Fred Jackson in return then you have a reason to be upset.

 

[Your Mom]

I hate the guys who send offers along with an explanation of why this is an awesome deal for me, and a risky deal for them....especially when they're trying to get one of my studs in exchange for 2 average guys.

Exactly. When it comes from a guy that is one of the worst owners in the league it is even worse.My biggest problem with bad traders is the guy who really is hurting at a position. Last year, in a start 2 QB league, one of the better teams only had 1 QB. He had to get another QB if he wanted to win the whole thing. I had 4 QBs, so I was willing to deal. My team was middle of the pack, so I was trying to get into the playoffs. All I was looking for was a decent RB or Wr to start for me. The guy was offering Darren Sproles. Take it or leave it offer from him. He is the one that needs a QB if he wanted to win the thing. Drives me nuts. Response was no thanks and I moved on and he couldn't believe I didn't accept it. So he is on the list that I will not waste my time with unless he sends me an offer that is at least respectable.

This type of story has little value unless we know which RB you wanted from his roster and which QB you were dangling. If you were offering me Chad Henne and asking for Arian Foster, I would probably have giving you a take it or leave it offer of Sproles. Now if were offering Ben Roethlesberger (because you had A.Rogers) and only wanted Fred Jackson in return then you have a reason to be upset.

I said I wanted a decent RB or WR. Didn't say I wanted the best fantasy RB in the game in Foster. I had Cassel and Bradford that I was willing to deal. Can't remember exactly who else he had, but I will say it again. I wanted a decent RB OR WR. He was the one that had to get a QB. My team had a bunch of injuries and I drafted like an idiot, so I was out of the main prize (Total Points). So I was just trying to make the playoffs. Fred Jackson would have been fine. The whole point is he needed the QB and I was the one that was supposed to get screwed?

 

[coolnerd]

At times, many of these ideas/situations talked about in this thread have frustrated me. The thing that keeps me balanced somewhat with trade talks is remembering that unlike the rest of fantasy football in order to accomplish trades, I have to deal with humans. this means that I have to play nice enough to most people in order to have trade partners, but direct them in ways to guide them as to how I prefer to trade talks to go. Even here it takes some sense of compromise and patience along with getting to know that's how someone to operate in order to get the chance at deals that you would not normally get. By no means, am I perfect (in fact I am somewhat moody and fickle), but my goal is trying to remember I am dealing with a human (good and bad) on the other side of that trade offer.

 

[fightingillini]

Years ago it used to frustrate me to no end. Even now sometimes it does, but I try hard not to let it. It's rare that I get upset about failed dealings anymore. It basically comes down to what some others have already stated - folks value players differently. Especially players they already own. To get deals done I've learned I generally have to give up a little more than what I perceive that targeted players value to be. If I'm later proven correct on my player projections it is a win for me.

Which makes accumulating good depth at the draft and through waivers all that more important. The more depth you have, the better chance that you can throw in one extra player to get a deal done.

 

[NeverEnough]

What frustrates me are the aholes that respond with insults or get defensive etc instead of offering a counter or explaining what they would feel comfortable trading.

I understand this....but that shouldn't include a simple rejection.

I recently tried to trade Randy Moss (Before I found out he said he was retiring)I sent out a few offers for below average younger players in return. One owner replied to my offer with "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" Is he just an ahole or a ######ed 10 year old? There's no need for that bs. Simply say he announced his retirement and I don't think he's coming back.Of course, since then the Eagles contacted him & no doubt other teams will too. So who knows, maybe he'll be back.

 

[Touchdown There]

Like if you're targeting a player on a team, and the owner asks for an unreasonable amount for him, so much so it isn't even worth talking to him?

Or if you post about a players(s) being available and people go through a series of communications only to give you such a complete lowball offer that you feel like it was just a complete waste of time?

Humans are such an unbelievably compelling collection of biases that it's really a wonder that we ever manage to make any trades at all.I mean, just in these two scenarios you mentioned, you've got evidence of endowment effect, mere exposure effect, and status quo bias. Like I said, given our disturbingly faulty processing skills, it's a minor miracle we can ever reach an agreement over anything.

I have a leaguemate who is the perfect example of the endowment effect. We're in two leagues together. In one of them, I approached him last offseason about acquiring Crabtree. He told me that he'd be willing to sell, but he viewed Crabs as a slam-dunk top-10 dynasty receiver. I told him that was too rich for my blood, but I happened to have Crabtree in our other league together, and I'd be happy to sell him. My leaguemate told me flat-out that he had zero interest in acquiring Crabtree (didn't even inquire about the cost).

I love it!

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I hate the donkeys that send intentional low ball offers and ask you counter so that you will do all legwork on coming up with the first real offer. Even worse the guy that offers nothing for a player with a note that says "What do you want for ___________".

You're approaching me. Come up with a legit offer.

 

[KellysHeroes]

As a commish of multiple leagues I love to see my owners makes lots of fair trades... The more the better. But some people just value "their" players a lot more than what the rest the market does and there's nothing wrong with that. If someone doesn't want to trade or values his players so high that the league isn't going to pay the price then so what, move on to an owner that is mote willing to trade.

 

[AmosMoses]

Help me to understand:Why does a simple deal out of the blue require an explanation when it's rejected?I'm not trying to be obtuse. I really don't understand. Sometimes I CAN'T explain. Sometimes I simply want the guy I aquired. Why does this make me a "bad trader"?

Maybe we're on slightly different pages. You're talking about requiring "an explanation". As a potential trade partner, I don't need to know details why you value him as you do. I just need an idea of what you value him at so I have an idea on how to proceed in talking about a trade, or if it's worth pursuing.Here's how it feels on the other end of someone who just hits the "reject" button. Picture yourself going into a store and trying to buy something and having it go like this.You: I'd like to buy this.Clerk: Ok.You: Um... ok, can I buy it for $2?Clerk: No.You: Can I buy it for $3?Clerk: No.You: Can I trade in my old one and buy it for $1.50?Clerk: No.You: How about you work with me and give me an idea of what it costs?Clerk: It costs $3.25. -or- That object isn't for sale.I don't really care why it costs $3.25 or isn't for sale. Just tell me, it isn't that hard to type, "I can't see a win-win trade for him that both of us would accept." Or even better, "I'm most interested in improving at WR3 and back up QB, but I don't see a win-win trade between us there."To me half of it is simple common courtesy and half of it is working in your own self-interest. For all you know the guy may say, "I don't like Matt Schaub at all this year and would trade him if you think he'd be an improvement at back up QB."I'll also add, you seem to be taking this as owners sending a trade out of the blue only. That isn't the case when I run into it. I always call, email, or send a blurb on the trade offer. Because I think that is also both common courtesy, and again, in my own best interest.

You: knock knockMe: Yes? What do you want?You: I want to buy your couch. I'll give you this end table and a desk in trade.Me: This isn't a store.

 

[Instinctive]

I hate the donkeys that send intentional low ball offers and ask you counter so that you will do all legwork on coming up with the first real offer. Even worse the guy that offers nothing for a player with a note that says "What do you want for ___________".You're approaching me. Come up with a legit offer.

I'm actually a fan of this as a counter - I send an offer of nothing for all the guys I am interested in getting back for the player the other owner inquired about. Or an email - it's easier in some leagues than others to do an "empty counter."Basically, don't look at it as an offer, but rather a conversation starter. I like to talk football with other guys Who cares if it is under the guise of a trade offer?

 

[TheAssassin]

I'm not a fan of the "shotgun" traders.That is, guys who continually spray ridiculous low-ball offers to every team in the league at once, hoping someone will eventually bite.

I hate the guys who bite.

 

[renesauz]

Just recieved this offer on one website. Keep in mind it is unsolicited initial offer out of the blue:

XXXXXXXXXX offers •Lewis, Marcedes JAC TE

to me for

•Doss, Tandon BAL WR

•Year 2012 Round 2 Draft Pick from Atomic Theory

As loopy as this trade appears to begin with....here's my current rostered TEs: Brent Celek, Moeaki, AND OWEN DANIELS.

Yet...this offer deserves a counter or explanation? REALLY? I'm not super high on Doss (4th round throw against wall rookie pick), but who pays a 2nd for a second string TE that is not much of an upgrade over his THIRD rostered TE?

Because of this thread, and since I'm not super excited or caring about Doss, I did tell him Doss was available...but these kinds of thoughtless lopsided offers piss me off. They don't DESERVE a real response.

 

[Instinctive]

Just recieved this offer on one website. Keep in mind it is unsolicited initial offer out of the blue:XXXXXXXXXX offers •Lewis, Marcedes JAC TEto me for•Doss, Tandon BAL WR•Year 2012 Round 2 Draft Pick from Atomic Theory As loopy as this trade appears to begin with....here's my current rostered TEs: Brent Celek, Moeaki, AND OWEN DANIELS. Yet...this offer deserves a counter or explanation? REALLY? I'm not super high on Doss (4th round throw against wall rookie pick), but who pays a 2nd for a second string TE that is not much of an upgrade over his THIRD rostered TE?Because of this thread, and since I'm not super excited or caring about Doss, I did tell him Doss was available...but these kinds of thoughtless lopsided offers piss me off. They don't DESERVE a real response.

To me, Lewis looks like he would be your number one or two TE - behind Daniels perhaps. It doesn't deserve anything...no offer "deserves" anything. But is it better for your team to reject and say nothing, or to say "Not interested in Lewis with the TEs I have...these are the guys I would like in this type of deal: list of guys."Which one of those two options helps YOU most?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I hate the donkeys that send intentional low ball offers and ask you counter so that you will do all legwork on coming up with the first real offer. Even worse the guy that offers nothing for a player with a note that says "What do you want for ___________".You're approaching me. Come up with a legit offer.

I'm actually a fan of this as a counter - I send an offer of nothing for all the guys I am interested in getting back for the player the other owner inquired about. Or an email - it's easier in some leagues than others to do an "empty counter."Basically, don't look at it as an offer, but rather a conversation starter. I like to talk football with other guys Who cares if it is under the guise of a trade offer?

Conversation starter? Again you are interested in his players but want him to make the first move. Put together a real offer for the guy(s) you want and I'm sure that would start a conversation too.

 

[Instinctive]

I hate the donkeys that send intentional low ball offers and ask you counter so that you will do all legwork on coming up with the first real offer. Even worse the guy that offers nothing for a player with a note that says "What do you want for ___________".

You're approaching me. Come up with a legit offer.

I'm actually a fan of this as a counter - I send an offer of nothing for all the guys I am interested in getting back for the player the other owner inquired about. Or an email - it's easier in some leagues than others to do an "empty counter."Basically, don't look at it as an offer, but rather a conversation starter. I like to talk football with other guys Who cares if it is under the guise of a trade offer?

Conversation starter? Again you are interested in his players but want him to make the first move. Put together a real offer for the guy(s) you want and I'm sure that would start a conversation too.

I don't need to change how I'm doing things. Why waste yours and my time making a random offer with guys from my team you may night like or guys from your team that you don't want to give? Hell - I ask what guys he is interested in on my team and then I'll put together the offer. The bottom line is this: am I the stupid one for starting a conversation, or is it you for being offended and cutting off all chance of any deal?ETA: I bolded something for you.

 

[renesauz]

Just recieved this offer on one website. Keep in mind it is unsolicited initial offer out of the blue:XXXXXXXXXX offers Lewis, Marcedes JAC TEto me forDoss, Tandon BAL WRYear 2012 Round 2 Draft Pick from Atomic Theory As loopy as this trade appears to begin with....here's my current rostered TEs: Brent Celek, Moeaki, AND OWEN DANIELS. Yet...this offer deserves a counter or explanation? REALLY? I'm not super high on Doss (4th round throw against wall rookie pick), but who pays a 2nd for a second string TE that is not much of an upgrade over his THIRD rostered TE?Because of this thread, and since I'm not super excited or caring about Doss, I did tell him Doss was available...but these kinds of thoughtless lopsided offers piss me off. They don't DESERVE a real response.

To me, Lewis looks like he would be your number one or two TE - behind Daniels perhaps. It doesn't deserve anything...no offer "deserves" anything. But is it better for your team to reject and say nothing, or to say "Not interested in Lewis with the TEs I have...these are the guys I would like in this type of deal: list of guys."Which one of those two options helps YOU most?

I get what your saying. Lewis isn't a chump, and I agree...the trade is unbalanced, but not ridiculously so. However, I CLEARLY had no need at the position. I have a good starter, and I have two young upside guys backing him up, either of which should be more than adequate in a pinch. My first thought on looking was: "Did he even bother looking at my roster?"I was nice...I didn't say anything except "I'm fat at TE, but Doss is available if thats what you were really after".

 

[tenaka]

I hate the donkeys that send intentional low ball offers and ask you counter so that you will do all legwork on coming up with the first real offer. Even worse the guy that offers nothing for a player with a note that says "What do you want for ___________".You're approaching me. Come up with a legit offer.

I'm actually a fan of this as a counter - I send an offer of nothing for all the guys I am interested in getting back for the player the other owner inquired about. Or an email - it's easier in some leagues than others to do an "empty counter."Basically, don't look at it as an offer, but rather a conversation starter. I like to talk football with other guys Who cares if it is under the guise of a trade offer?

Conversation starter? Again you are interested in his players but want him to make the first move. Put together a real offer for the guy(s) you want and I'm sure that would start a conversation too.

Absolutely. If you want to start a conversation, make it an interesting conversation.When I get 'conversation starter' offers I just reject it and forget it. Fair offers I'll either comment on or at least look for a counter. Sometimes nothing looks appealing though so there's nowhere to go and nothing to say.