Ductless AC/Heat EXPERTS - advice sought (1 Viewer)

[The General]

Needing AC solution for my house. Cannot do central air for a variety of reasons.

Got a 1st quote on ductless for two mid sized bedrooms and it came to all-in, taxes, permits etc 18k.

This appointments are booking months out in my hood so just getting an idea, this was the first company we had. Very respected, trust their work, etc...but this seems like a lot based on generic online stuff I am seeing.

Any HVAC FBG experts?!?

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

So what do you have for heat, radiators? 

 

[The General]

So what do you have for heat, radiators? 

We have a gas furnace, duct work but there isn't room to fit the AC unit in the space where the furnace is easily and there are some city restrictions about placement of the outside fan thing that would not be ideal.

 

[ChiefD]

Needing AC solution for my house. Cannot do central air for a variety of reasons.

Got a 1st quote on ductless for two mid sized bedrooms and it came to all-in, taxes, permits etc 18k.

This appointments are booking months out in my hood so just getting an idea, this was the first company we had. Very respected, trust their work, etc...but this seems like a lot based on generic online stuff I am seeing.

Any HVAC FBG experts?!?

How many cooling heads?

How many tons of cooling?

What brand are they proposing?

 

[The General]

How many cooling heads?

How many tons of cooling?

What brand are they proposing?

The outdoor condenser is: Mitsubishi - 20k BTU

The indoor units are (2) of these: Mitsubishi EF-Series White 12k BTU Wall Mounted Unit

Installation is for two rooms that share a wall so the tubes outside would run the length of the house then run into the condenser, seemed pretty straight forward outside with nothing too crazy installation wise.

The quote has some electrical circuit work mentioned ($1500) and this covers all the permits ($600)

Hopefully that gives you an idea if this is a crazy priced quote. The sales guy/installer was very professional and knowledgeable. company has been around for 100 years, well reviewed, etc.

Thanks!! 

 

[jwb]

Needing AC solution for my house. Cannot do central air for a variety of reasons.

Got a 1st quote on ductless for two mid sized bedrooms and it came to all-in, taxes, permits etc 18k.

This appointments are booking months out in my hood so just getting an idea, this was the first company we had. Very respected, trust their work, etc...but this seems like a lot based on generic online stuff I am seeing.

Any HVAC FBG experts?!?

whoa. I had Mitsubishi's put in my old house in 2012. Condenser, 3 units. 5k total, including electric/etc. This was NY (hudson valley). Could the price really have gone up that much in 10 years?

 

[wilked]

How big is the house? 

 

[The General]

whoa. I had Mitsubishi's put in my old house in 2012. Condenser, 3 units. 5k total, including electric/etc. This was NY (hudson valley). Could the price really have gone up that much in 10 years?

Who knows? It seems like a lot. But everything is crazy right now up here. I am kicking myself for not lining up the 2nd/3rd estimates months ago so I had something to go against.

 

[The General]

How big is the house? 

We would just be using these to cool 2 rooms. Each room would get one of the units. One is probably 15 x 15 the other 20 x 15.

 

[FBG26]

I got an estimate for a Mitsubishi system (1 head covering a 500 sq ft room) and I think it was $4500 or so. Quote was for Minneapolis less than a year ago. $18k sounds crazy high but I'm curious what ChiefD thinks. 

 

[FBG26]

Hopefully The General doesn't mind too much of a hijack, but am I crazy for considering radiant hydronic heat and mini-splits for A/C for a new build? We really like zoned hydronic heat versus scorched air. And I like the idea of using minisplits for a more zoned AC setup so I don't have to cool the entire house when we're using a small portion of the house at any given time. Is this totally unnecessary?  

 

[The General]

I got an estimate for a Mitsubishi system (1 head covering a 500 sq ft room) and I think it was $4500 or so. Quote was for Minneapolis less than a year ago. $18k sounds crazy high but I'm curious what ChiefD thinks. 

This is more in line with the rough estimates I’m seeing on Reddit, online in other spots. They could do one room for 8500ish so it still seems high in comparison to your quote from last year.

Put calls out to three other places today so hopefully hear back from them soon but not hopeful they will come out any time soon.

This quote is good for 10 days but will likely pass since I’m clueless here on prices.

 

[NutterButter]

Are these types of units just far superior to window units?   That's just seems like a crazy amount of money to spend to cool 2 bedrooms.   

 

[The General]

Are these types of units just far superior to window units?   That's just seems like a crazy amount of money to spend to cool 2 bedrooms.   

Want to avoid window units. But, also want to avoid paying double to this place though which seems like what is going on   

 

[gianmarco]

Did Otis refer this guy?

 

[The General]

Did Otis refer this guy?

This guy probably rolled up in a Tesla towing a boat

The problem is these dudes are booked up like crazy. 

 

[wilked]

We would just be using these to cool 2 rooms. Each room would get one of the units. One is probably 15 x 15 the other 20 x 15.

Why? Why not cool the house or at least a level? 
 

I bring it up as it is incrementally not much more to do the house or at least a level. And I’ve always learned to cool a house, not bedroom unless you are doing window units. 
 

humor me - how big of a house? How many levels? What city/state? 

 

[SWC]

me and everyone else here immediately knew chief was your huckleberry on this boys it sure is nice nice having our own resident hvac expert up in here take that to the bank bromigos 

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

We have a heat pump for AC/heat.  They used to not be practical for Houston given our humidity, but they are way better now.  Would that work for your house?

18K seems juuust a tad high for two rooms.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Are these types of units just far superior to window units?   That's just seems like a crazy amount of money to spend to cool 2 bedrooms.   

That was my first thought. Two very good window units would cost him ~$500 

Want to avoid window units. But, also want to avoid paying double to this place though which seems like what is going on   

I totally understand that they're not great aesthetically but $18k is redonkulous. Maybe rock the window A/C units until prices come down?

We have a gas furnace, duct work but there isn't room to fit the AC unit in the space where the furnace is easily and there are some city restrictions about placement of the outside fan thing that would not be ideal.

Im not understanding this part. Why not replace/upgrade the furnace with a model that can also handle a A/C unit? It cant be more expensive than these two systems your putting in and it would cool the entire house, not just the two bedrooms.

Im not trying to be difficult, but when you mentioned the city restrictions for the exterior A/C unit...... Don't the ductless units you're intending to you also come equipped with two exterior fan units? 

 

[ChiefD]

The outdoor condenser is: Mitsubishi - 20k BTU

The indoor units are (2) of these: Mitsubishi EF-Series White 12k BTU Wall Mounted Unit

Installation is for two rooms that share a wall so the tubes outside would run the length of the house then run into the condenser, seemed pretty straight forward outside with nothing too crazy installation wise.

The quote has some electrical circuit work mentioned ($1500) and this covers all the permits ($600)

Hopefully that gives you an idea if this is a crazy priced quote. The sales guy/installer was very professional and knowledgeable. company has been around for 100 years, well reviewed, etc.

Thanks!! 

Are they cooling only or also heat pumps?

 

[gianmarco]

Pay me $18K and I'll come personally fan you when you'd like (grapes optional and will be extra)

 

[ChiefD]

Im not understanding this part. Why not replace/upgrade the furnace with a model that can also handle a A/C unit? It cant be more expensive than these two systems your putting in and it would cool the entire house, not just the two bedrooms.

Im not trying to be difficult, but when you mentioned the city restrictions for the exterior A/C unit...... Don't the ductless units you're intending to you also come equipped with two exterior fan units? 

1. It may be a height issue in the basement where they can't add an evap coil.

2. The mini split will have an outdoor portion also but it's smaller and one unit can handle two heads.

 

[ChiefD]

Ok, some quick napkin math tells me this job should be 12K-ish.  

I took a comparable Carrier unit (I have access to pricing on these) and priced out two heads and an outdoor unit. Added in your electrical (this will need to be done because they need their own circuit) and permit fees.

Figured in two days of labor for 1 guy. Added a couple extra thousand for incidentals (line set, misc materials, etc) and that's what I came up with.

Get another bid. 18K is way high.

 

[ChiefD]

Why? Why not cool the house or at least a level? 
 

I bring it up as it is incrementally not much more to do the house or at least a level. And I’ve always learned to cool a house, not bedroom unless you are doing window units. 
 

humor me - how big of a house? How many levels? What city/state? 

Yeah, agree. If there is ductwork there for the furnace "usually" you can add AC.

Unless of course:

1. Wherever the furnace is there just isn't height to add the evap coil.

2. Not enough return air and nowhere to add it

3. Ductwork may be too small to push the cold air

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Prolly just threw $5k on top because they dont want/need the job. This is happening a lot these days with all the demand. They want you to say no but if you don't, they make a killing. 

 

[The General]

Ok, some quick napkin math tells me this job should be 12K-ish.  

I took a comparable Carrier unit (I have access to pricing on these) and priced out two heads and an outdoor unit. Added in your electrical (this will need to be done because they need their own circuit) and permit fees.

Figured in two days of labor for 1 guy. Added a couple extra thousand for incidentals (line set, misc materials, etc) and that's what I came up with.

Get another bid. 18K is way high.

Perfect. Thank you. Did some asking around of other peeps up here and a buddy of a buddy had similar work done and it was closer to this number. 

So now just have to get people to come out which is likely months wait but we got some time til we need this.

 

[The General]

Are they cooling only or also heat pumps?

They are also heat but this isn’t as much an issue, doesn’t get super cold here and furnace was replaced about a decade ago. 

 

[The General]

Pay me $18K and I'll come personally fan you when you'd like (grapes optional and will be extra)

Let’s call this plan B.

 

[The General]

Yeah, agree. If there is ductwork there for the furnace "usually" you can add AC.

Unless of course:

1. Wherever the furnace is there just isn't height to add the evap coil.

2. Not enough return air and nowhere to add it

3. Ductwork may be too small to push the cold air

Number 1 is the issue. There’s no room. He started talking about options and it sounded not good. I will ask a second guy but this seemed pretty straight.

This is a house built in 1950 so #### is weird

Then add the fan thing needs to be 15 feet from property line limits the spots where it can go and it isn’t an ideal option.

This was the way we were hoping to go. 

 

[ChiefD]

Perfect. Thank you. Did some asking around of other peeps up here and a buddy of a buddy had similar work done and it was closer to this number. 

So now just have to get people to come out which is likely months wait but we got some time til we need this.

I would start calling around.

In our area (Kansas City) this time of year is usually a dead zone from now until about April 1st. So companies are looking for stuff to do. We'll ebb and flow depending on weather.  Usually by now anything that's going to break on a furnace has already done so. Most repairs happen when that furnace is first turned on for the season. The next wave happens when we have prolonged cold (in the teens and below). We are finishing one of these patterns now.

I would guess your area is similar. Now is a great time to get a bid and get the work done if you can get someone out to your place.

 

[The General]

I would start calling around.

In our area (Kansas City) this time of year is usually a dead zone from now until about April 1st. So companies are looking for stuff to do. We'll ebb and flow depending on weather.  Usually by now anything that's going to break on a furnace has already done so. Most repairs happen when that furnace is first turned on for the season. The next wave happens when we have prolonged cold (in the teens and below). We are finishing one of these patterns now.

I would guess your area is similar. Now is a great time to get a bid and get the work done if you can get someone out to your place.

Typically this is probably the case up here too, but what’s working against us is no original house in the neighborhoods around here were built with AC. 

Last summer we had this crazy historic heatwave so everyone is trying to install. This appointment was made months ago. I should have lined up other quotes in this time but didn’t…dumb.

 

[The General]

For those that asked window unit not a good option for layout of the bedrooms, window placement, and aesthetics. If the price doesn’t come down it could become an option for at least the room we sleep in. 

 

[The General]

That was my first thought. Two very good window units would cost him ~$500 

I totally understand that they're not great aesthetically but $18k is redonkulous. Maybe rock the window A/C units until prices come down?

Im not understanding this part. Why not replace/upgrade the furnace with a model that can also handle a A/C unit? It cant be more expensive than these two systems your putting in and it would cool the entire house, not just the two bedrooms.

Im not trying to be difficult, but when you mentioned the city restrictions for the exterior A/C unit...... Don't the ductless units you're intending to you also come equipped with two exterior fan units? 

The central air compressor fan thing have to be 15 feet from property line due to noise…these heat pump/ductless fans are quiet enough that they can be placed anywhere.

 

[The General]

The tech behind these ductless units is pretty great on paper. They sound very efficient.

The only down side I see is adding them to older houses is the pipes running to the outside condenser are a bit ugly and the cost (at least from this guy I have a quote from  ).

I have seen them in some of the new construction, on these boxy modern looking builds and never really paid attention. They seem like a perfect option for these type of homes. 

 

[wilked]

The central air compressor fan thing have to be 15 feet from property line due to noise…these heat pump/ductless fans are quiet enough that they can be placed anywhere.

Exactly. I’d look into a variance for sure. Talk w neighbors first, show a video of what it sounds like, see if you can get them on board. If so the variance should go thru easily 

 

[The General]

Exactly. I’d look into a variance for sure. Talk w neighbors first, show a video of what it sounds like, see if you can get them on board. If so the variance should go thru easily 

Thanks. This was just one of the issues with going with central air. The main problem is no space to place the thing in the furnace room without modifications. 

Central air was preferred and will check with the next guy to get 2nd opinion but this seemed right from what the first guy showed us. 

 

[ChiefD]

Thanks. This was just one of the issues with going with central air. The main problem is no space to place the thing in the furnace room without modifications. 

Central air was preferred and will check with the next guy to get 2nd opinion but this seemed right from what the first guy showed us. 

How much height do you have from the floor to the bottom of the ductwork in your furnace room?

 

[The General]

How much height do you have from the floor to the bottom of the ductwork in your furnace room?

If I’m measuring the correct spot I had about 50”.

 

[ChiefD]

If I’m measuring the correct spot I had about 50”.

Yeah, that's not enough to add an evap coil. Ductless mini-splits it is!

 

[The General]

Yeah, that's not enough to add an evap coil. Ductless mini-splits it is!

Thanks for confirming. This def seemed reasonable from the original guy.

Soooo another question for you. We have had insane rain and snow melt for past two weeks. There is a bit of water (not a crazy amount but it is more than damp) that has come in and is under the furnace. Do we need to shut her off until we sort this out? 

 

[The General]

The General's house is not in order!

####### elbow connector on one of the down spouts fell off so water was just pouring from that corner of the house straight down along the base of the house for at least a couple days (I had cleared all the drain areas about 3 days ago so know it was in place then).

Rained like crazy last night and ground has been completely saturated even by PNW standards for a week or so now so please, for the love of god, let that be it.

Shop-vac'd the water up, is still seeping in from a few spots very, very slightly. 

Renting sounding pretty good right now!

 

[ChiefD]

Thanks for confirming. This def seemed reasonable from the original guy.

Soooo another question for you. We have had insane rain and snow melt for past two weeks. There is a bit of water (not a crazy amount but it is more than damp) that has come in and is under the furnace. Do we need to shut her off until we sort this out? 

As long as its not in the furnace cabinet itself you should be fine. Is your furnace up on bricks?

 

[beer 30]

Typically this is probably the case up here too, but what’s working against us is no original house in the neighborhoods around here were built with AC. 

Last summer we had this crazy historic heatwave so everyone is trying to install. This appointment was made months ago. I should have lined up other quotes in this time but didn’t…dumb.

Not for nothing, I work in the temporary AC rental world and it's going to stay hot in your neck of the woods for a while, years. Don't put it off, bite the bullet and get in line with everyone else doing the exact same thing you are trying to do in a house that wasn't designed for AC.

Sounded to me like the guy just didn't want the job so he bid high but I think Steady mentioned that above.

 

[wilked]

Thanks. This was just one of the issues with going with central air. The main problem is no space to place the thing in the furnace room without modifications. 

Central air was preferred and will check with the next guy to get 2nd opinion but this seemed right from what the first guy showed us. 

That's fine, I'm just saying I would add a 3rd/4th head unit for say living room/dining room, maybe another space to get the first level conditioned.  

You're not willing to describe your house (levels, sq ft, etc)?

I get you can't use your furnace, but there's no way I'd sign up for all that $$ (whether $12 or $18K) for two rooms.  Spend a little more and get a whole home solution.  

 

[The General]

As long as its not in the furnace cabinet itself you should be fine. Is your furnace up on bricks?

It is elevated slightly so we are good I think. 

 

[wilked]

If you're not willing to give up a window, think I'd go a thru-wall unit for each bedroom (figure few thousand between install and some electric) before I'd spend $7500/bedroom

 

[gianmarco]

Can you just raise the roof for that much?

 

[The General]

That's fine, I'm just saying I would add a 3rd/4th head unit for say living room/dining room, maybe another space to get the first level conditioned.  

You're not willing to describe your house (levels, sq ft, etc)?

I get you can't use your furnace, but there's no way I'd sign up for all that $$ (whether $12 or $18K) for two rooms.  Spend a little more and get a whole home solution.  

The upstairs is prolly 1200 square feet total. This first guy didn't bid out the entire upstairs (we didn't ask I guess either though).

From what this guy said and looking at where we'd put one of the heads in our living room kitchen area I think we'd run into a few issues dropping one of those units in though in that area. Not really seeing a good space for it with walls, windows. There's brick involved as well in that room so not sure about getting the tubes to the outside and then running that piping around the house seems not great.

Learning a ton more about this so will ask the next guy though.

 

[The General]

Can you just raise the roof for that much?

We are moving before looking at this