Dynasty Expansion (1 Viewer)

[pkroper22]

Hey guys, I've been playing in an 8-team idp dynasty league for about the past 25 years.

The general consensus of the owners in our league is that we want to expand to 10-12 teams, as 8 is quite small. We have 2-3 friends that have been anxious to join, and we are going through our options. Anyone have ideas of the best way to go about this?

We are eager to add new owners, however, after 25 years no one really wants to see all the work they've put into a team just vanish. Would there be a fair and reasonable way to add 2-3 owners without the current owners starting from scratch? Keepers has been recommended but wanted to get the thoughts of people on here to see what has worked in similar situations.

Our current starting requirements are: 2QB / 1 RB / 1 WR / 3 Flex (RB, WR, TE) / 1 K / 2 DL / 2 LB / 2 DB

TIA

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

No. Anything that starts with the current 8 owners collecting a certain number of players before letting the new guys take leftovers is completely unfair.

 

[menobrown]

Never been in this situation but I'd steal some pages from the real NFL.

Allow each team to do protected list and hold a dispersal draft for the unprotected. Would need to set limits on amount of players who can be chosen from each team.

Offer the new teams at minimum the first picks in the next rookie draft. Possibly extra first in subsequent years, but more like end of round one. Possibly other picks as well.

 

[wgoldsph]

To start - new teams get two years free. I know personally if I was getting everyone's second stringers I would probably spend my money somewhere else.

 

[pkroper22]

Never been in this situation but I'd steal some pages from the real NFL.

Allow each team to do protected list and hold a dispersal draft for the unprotected. Would need to set limits on amount of players who can be chosen from each team.

Offer the new teams at minimum the first picks in the next rookie draft. Possibly extra first in subsequent years, but more like end of round one. Possibly other picks as well.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. With only 8-teams, virtually every team has more than 1 "stud" player. The new owners would be able to draft quality players. The question remains of how many you could "protect"?

No. Anything that starts with the current 8 owners collecting a certain number of players before letting the new guys take leftovers is completely unfair.

I think you may have misunderstood the question. If applying this logic, I would assume you were against any major sports expanding to more teams?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Never been in this situation but I'd steal some pages from the real NFL.

Allow each team to do protected list and hold a dispersal draft for the unprotected. Would need to set limits on amount of players who can be chosen from each team.

Offer the new teams at minimum the first picks in the next rookie draft. Possibly extra first in subsequent years, but more like end of round one. Possibly other picks as well.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. With only 8-teams, virtually every team has more than 1 "stud" player. The new owners would be able to draft quality players. The question remains of how many you could "protect"?

No. Anything that starts with the current 8 owners collecting a certain number of players before letting the new guys take leftovers is completely unfair.

I think you may have misunderstood the question. If applying this logic, I would assume you were against any major sports expanding to more teams?

I don't think your dynasty league and WNBA expansion are the same thing. But most of those expansion drafts are completely unfair too.

Let's say you all keep 3 guys before letting the newbies have anyone. You've taken the top 24 players off the board before they get anyone. How is this fair? Would you join a dynasty league where you start with 0 players and between 67% and 80% of the league starts off with 3+ players? It's like giving up your first 3 rounds in a startup draft for nothing in return.

 

[menobrown]

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. With only 8-teams, virtually every team has more than 1 "stud" player. The new owners would be able to draft quality players. The question remains of how many you could "protect"?

Can't say, would think that would require a conversation with existing and new members to find what is acceptable to everyone including setting up equal amounts of players that can poached from each team and what that number would look like.

It's a lot to work out, how difficult depends on your group. Even if it's fair not everyone will probably be happy but you got to make it enticing for new teams to join and I'd drive home point to existing owners the prize pool is going to get bigger and the league more challenging.

 

[greenmountaingoat]

Spitballing here (based on a 12 team league)

There are 12 players over 8000 on KTC. So each of the original 8 get to keep one player over 8k on KTC.
There are 24 players over 6400 on KTC. So each of the original 8 get to keep one additional player over 6400 on KTC.
Keep going on 36, 48, 60, 72 and so on. This should shake out so that the existing monster teams get to keep a large number of their studs (one team could keep Gibbs, BJT, Wilson, Tee Higgins, Kyren Williams etc.) but it shakes out at minimum the same number of blue chippers as needed to even the tables for the newbies.

Existing owners are are allowed to dump their whole roster and join the expansion draft. From any one point in the draft and down. No in and outs. If they keep a "round 1 player" and dump the rest, their draft starts in the 2nd round.

Your current true dynasty teams will likely be hurt the most by this but if they're bought into the idea of adding teams, they're going to have to sacrifice something.

 

[King of the Jungle]

We did this ages ago (10 to 12). 18 man rosters cut to 8, free first year. Didn’t do anything special with picks. Wasn’t perfect, but league is still kicking after several decades and only 2 owner changes after all that time.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

I think most in this situation are trying to make these teams somewhat competitive right off the bat so that you can make them pay the entry. You want a great parallel for your situation? Women's Professional Hockey League. That's a 6-team league expanding to 8 with the goal of making the two new teams decent out of the gate. This isn't the exact format, and you also have two more existing teams, but I think this would give them a fairly decent shot.

*Original Eight teams protect 3 players.
*Two new teams alternate drafting 16 players from this pool (8 to each team). No existing team can lose more than two.

This gives the new teams 8 guys that are decent (4th/5th best player types) that can immediately be plugged into starting lineups. Basically, they have great depth in the 6th/7th/8th spot but lack any of the studs up top. They could package some of that depth for more starpower. But still probably won't be world beaters out of the gate. Maybe give them a heavily discounted or even free Year One entry and then they're on their own thereafter.

Or, back to the drawing board:

*Original Eight teams only protect 2 players
*Two new teams alternate drafting 8 from this pool (4 to each team). No existing team can lose more than one.
*Original Eight teams protect 2 more players
*Two new teams alternate drafting 16 from this pool (8 to each team). No existing team can lose more than two in this stage.

Original Team Rosters
1) #1 round calibre
2) #2 round
3) #4 round
4) #5 round
5) #8 round
6) #9 round
7) #10 round
8) #11 round
9) #12 round
10) #13 round
11) #14 round
12) #15 round

Expansion Team Rosters
1) #3 round calibre
2) #3 round
3) #3 round
4) #3 round
5) #6 round
6) #6 round
7) #6 round
8) #6 round
9) #7 round
10) #7 round
11) #7 round
12) #7 round


This new eco-system would give the existing teams plenty of motivation to consider trading one of their better players to the expansion teams to help replenish depth. I think you could make the case that the expansion teams might be able to compete right out of the gate if they select and trade wisely.

 

[Gally]

We had this exact situation a couple years ago. In our league (full IDP, salary cap, contracts, SF) we keep 15 players (or $250) from year to year from the max end of year roster size of 45 players. We start 16 players. When we expanded (we did it twice - 8 to 10 then a few laters 10-12) we did the same process. We let all existing franchises protect 8 players of their choosing and then we limited the number of players that could be taken off their roster.

The two new teams then had an expansion draft where they drafted up to 15 players or $250 off the existing rosters (free agents and rookies were not eligible). That meant a total of 30 players would be drafted. We divided that evenly across the existing teams. So when going from 8 to 10 that meant a most of 4 players could be taken off any one roster (8 x 4 = 32). When going from 10 -12 it dropped to 3 players max.

The two teams flipped for first pick and then they drafted. Any player they acquired their contract years were voided and the new owner could elect to award up to a 3 yr contract (same as any player drafted). Then the team with the most salary cap space left got first pick in the rookie draft and the other team got second pick.

It worked quite well. Expansion teams were immediately competitive if they wanted to be. There was strategy to spend less money to get the first rookie pick if they wanted to. Existing teams didn't lose all their hard work as they could protect 8 players but could also choose to leave expensive salary players open for the taking if they wanted to get out of a high priced contract.

Lots of strategy and lots of ways to go. It worked very well.

 

[Gally]

No. Anything that starts with the current 8 owners collecting a certain number of players before letting the new guys take leftovers is completely unfair.

Why is that unfair? Expansion teams are just that. They are joining an existing league. Why do you have to start over? There are ways to allow the expansion teams to be competitive if they want to be. There are ways to allow existing teams to keep a portion of their core unit they have built.

None of which is unfair to anyone.

 

[C & C]

Never done this, my 2 cents...

Each team gets to protect 1 player. If you have a player poached you get to protect another player.
Once each new team has picked a player, all the existing teams get to protect an additional player.
Rinse and Repeat.

The new teams won't be terrible and doesn't expose any one team too badly as they get additional protections.

Likely holes in this plan, but that's my first thought.

 

[BLOCKED_PUNT]

not exactly the same thing but I'm in a league where we had something like 6 six teams opt not to return and then we just had a dispersal for the new teams from the rosters of the teams that didn't returm.

I would think something like 6 keepers (almost 50% of your starters)
I also like @greenmountaingoat idea of teams can joining the dispersal draft if they opt not to keep anyone

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

not exactly the same thing but I'm in a league where we had something like 6 six teams opt not to return and then we just had a dispersal for the new teams from the rosters of the teams that didn't returm.

I would think something like 6 keepers (almost 50% of your starters)
I also like @greenmountaingoat idea of teams can joining the dispersal draft if they opt not to keep anyone

So 8 teams would keep 6 players and take 48 players off the board. And the new teams can come in and take players 49-72 to catch up? Would anyone join a dynasty startup where 2/3rds of the league gets to draft the first 6 rounds and then the other 1/3rd gets their first picks?

GMG's idea about keeping one player within a range is good. That at least gives the new teams an 8000 level player, a 6400 level player, etc...

 

[pkroper22]

Never been in this situation but I'd steal some pages from the real NFL.

Allow each team to do protected list and hold a dispersal draft for the unprotected. Would need to set limits on amount of players who can be chosen from each team.

Offer the new teams at minimum the first picks in the next rookie draft. Possibly extra first in subsequent years, but more like end of round one. Possibly other picks as well.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. With only 8-teams, virtually every team has more than 1 "stud" player. The new owners would be able to draft quality players. The question remains of how many you could "protect"?

No. Anything that starts with the current 8 owners collecting a certain number of players before letting the new guys take leftovers is completely unfair.

I think you may have misunderstood the question. If applying this logic, I would assume you were against any major sports expanding to more teams?

I don't think your dynasty league and WNBA expansion are the same thing. But most of those expansion drafts are completely unfair too.

Let's say you all keep 3 guys before letting the newbies have anyone. You've taken the top 24 players off the board before they get anyone. How is this fair? Would you join a dynasty league where you start with 0 players and between 67% and 80% of the league starts off with 3+ players? It's like giving up your first 3 rounds in a startup draft for nothing in return.

Okay, sorry about that. I went back and read my original post and see where the problem is with my wording. The original 8 owners were not actively looking to expand the league. We all play in a re-draft league as well, but our re-draft league has 12 owners. Three of those owners have stated their desire to join the dynasty league we have (they are all newer guys to our local friend group), so we were trying to find a way that could satisfy everyone if they wanted to do dynasty with us. We would probably be perfectly fine staying with 8, but thought we'd brainstorm to see if there was a way to make it work.

 

[BLOCKED_PUNT]

not exactly the same thing but I'm in a league where we had something like 6 six teams opt not to return and then we just had a dispersal for the new teams from the rosters of the teams that didn't returm.

I would think something like 6 keepers (almost 50% of your starters)
I also like @greenmountaingoat idea of teams can joining the dispersal draft if they opt not to keep anyone

So 8 teams would keep 6 players and take 48 players off the board. And the new teams can come in and take players 49-72 to catch up? Would anyone join a dynasty startup where 2/3rds of the league gets to draft the first 6 rounds and then the other 1/3rd gets their first picks?

GMG's idea about keeping one player within a range is good. That at least gives the new teams an 8000 level player, a 6400 level player, etc...

teams are likely very loaded in an 8 player. I don't know if it's exactly "fair" to tell long time owners that they have to dump most of their rosters to accommodate others. Would they join? It depends on the motivation. If it's just a friend group then it might be a low buy in or even free.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

Never been in this situation but I'd steal some pages from the real NFL.

Allow each team to do protected list and hold a dispersal draft for the unprotected. Would need to set limits on amount of players who can be chosen from each team.

Offer the new teams at minimum the first picks in the next rookie draft. Possibly extra first in subsequent years, but more like end of round one. Possibly other picks as well.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. With only 8-teams, virtually every team has more than 1 "stud" player. The new owners would be able to draft quality players. The question remains of how many you could "protect"?

No. Anything that starts with the current 8 owners collecting a certain number of players before letting the new guys take leftovers is completely unfair.

I think you may have misunderstood the question. If applying this logic, I would assume you were against any major sports expanding to more teams?

I don't think your dynasty league and WNBA expansion are the same thing. But most of those expansion drafts are completely unfair too.

Let's say you all keep 3 guys before letting the newbies have anyone. You've taken the top 24 players off the board before they get anyone. How is this fair? Would you join a dynasty league where you start with 0 players and between 67% and 80% of the league starts off with 3+ players? It's like giving up your first 3 rounds in a startup draft for nothing in return.

Okay, sorry about that. I went back and read my original post and see where the problem is with my wording. The original 8 owners were not actively looking to expand the league. We all play in a re-draft league as well, but our re-draft league has 12 owners. Three of those owners have stated their desire to join the dynasty league we have (they are all newer guys to our local friend group), so we were trying to find a way that could satisfy everyone if they wanted to do dynasty with us. We would probably be perfectly fine staying with 8, but thought we'd brainstorm to see if there was a way to make it work.

How many fantasy drafts are they allowed to be in at their current tier in the friend group?

The specifics are going to matter greatly (2 teams entering vs 3). If you're trying to get them in for this season and have them compete, they're basically going to be extracting a lot of good quantity at the expense of missing out on the top studs. The existing teams are going to feel the pain in what they're losing from their depth, to the point of wanting to trade one of their best players to restock their other positions.

On the other hand, if you have an 8-team league that everyone is happy with and nobody wants to expand, there's no reason why you should force an expansion that nobody wants. If the new guys are banging down the door and you like them enough to accommodate, I guess you could just let build up from nothing and not charge an entry fee in the first two years. It's going to make for some boring and brutal matchups early on. I think you're going to have to give them some special help just to get them decent by Year 3. A sandwich round between round 1 & round 2 just for the expansion teams or first dibs on all dropped players might be in order.

 

[socrates]

I am in a Dynasty League that has been in active existence since 1991. We have rules for expansion, and we have used those rules only once. Here is what we do:

IX. LEAGUE EXPANSION

9a. Expansion Clubs

Expansion teams may be brought into the league two at a time any time between the conclusion of the season (week 18) and March 1st of the following year, provided such a move receives at least a 2/3 approval vote of all franchise owners.

9b. Expansion Drafts

(1) Each pre-existing franchise must release a QB, RB or WR which started at least eight (8) fantasy games for them the previous season.
(2) If any team has less than five qualifying players to choose from, they may choose from the five players who received the most fantasy starts; however, they may not select from more than five players. Tie breakers will be determined by a random selection.
(3) Teams will retain the right of first refusal to any unclaimed expansion release player.
(4) Existing franchises will reduce their rosters from 25 to 15 (rather than the usual 20)
(5) Expansion teams will have a draft to bring their rosters to fifteen from the pool of veteran free agents (no rookies) prior to the league draft.
(6) Draft order will be determined by a coin toss for the top two positions in the expansion draft and reversed for the league draft.
(7) Expansion clubs will reverse draft order for the top two positions for even numbered rounds in both the expansion draft and the league draft
(8) The annual draft will be expanded from 5 rounds to 10 rounds (rookies and veterans)

 

[pkroper22]

Spitballing here (based on a 12 team league)

There are 12 players over 8000 on KTC. So each of the original 8 get to keep one player over 8k on KTC.
There are 24 players over 6400 on KTC. So each of the original 8 get to keep one additional player over 6400 on KTC.
Keep going on 36, 48, 60, 72 and so on. This should shake out so that the existing monster teams get to keep a large number of their studs (one team could keep Gibbs, BJT, Wilson, Tee Higgins, Kyren Williams etc.) but it shakes out at minimum the same number of blue chippers as needed to even the tables for the newbies.

Existing owners are are allowed to dump their whole roster and join the expansion draft. From any one point in the draft and down. No in and outs. If they keep a "round 1 player" and dump the rest, their draft starts in the 2nd round.

Your current true dynasty teams will likely be hurt the most by this but if they're bought into the idea of adding teams, they're going to have to sacrifice something.

Now this sounds great!

Never been in this situation but I'd steal some pages from the real NFL.

Allow each team to do protected list and hold a dispersal draft for the unprotected. Would need to set limits on amount of players who can be chosen from each team.

Offer the new teams at minimum the first picks in the next rookie draft. Possibly extra first in subsequent years, but more like end of round one. Possibly other picks as well.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. With only 8-teams, virtually every team has more than 1 "stud" player. The new owners would be able to draft quality players. The question remains of how many you could "protect"?

No. Anything that starts with the current 8 owners collecting a certain number of players before letting the new guys take leftovers is completely unfair.

I think you may have misunderstood the question. If applying this logic, I would assume you were against any major sports expanding to more teams?

I don't think your dynasty league and WNBA expansion are the same thing. But most of those expansion drafts are completely unfair too.

Let's say you all keep 3 guys before letting the newbies have anyone. You've taken the top 24 players off the board before they get anyone. How is this fair? Would you join a dynasty league where you start with 0 players and between 67% and 80% of the league starts off with 3+ players? It's like giving up your first 3 rounds in a startup draft for nothing in return.

Okay, sorry about that. I went back and read my original post and see where the problem is with my wording. The original 8 owners were not actively looking to expand the league. We all play in a re-draft league as well, but our re-draft league has 12 owners. Three of those owners have stated their desire to join the dynasty league we have (they are all newer guys to our local friend group), so we were trying to find a way that could satisfy everyone if they wanted to do dynasty with us. We would probably be perfectly fine staying with 8, but thought we'd brainstorm to see if there was a way to make it work.

How many fantasy drafts are they allowed to be in at their current tier in the friend group?

The specifics are going to matter greatly (2 teams entering vs 3). If you're trying to get them in for this season and have them compete, they're basically going to be extracting a lot of good quantity at the expense of missing out on the top studs. The existing teams are going to feel the pain in what they're losing from their depth, to the point of wanting to trade one of their best players to restock their other positions.

On the other hand, if you have an 8-team league that everyone is happy with and nobody wants to expand, there's no reason why you should force an expansion that nobody wants. If the new guys are banging down the door and you like them enough to accommodate, I guess you could just let build up from nothing and not charge an entry fee in the first two years. It's going to make for some boring and brutal matchups early on. I think you're going to have to give them some special help just to get them decent by Year 3. A sandwich round between round 1 & round 2 just for the expansion teams or first dibs on all dropped players might be in order.

This is something that we are looking at for NEXT year. Wouldn't be fair to anyone trying to pull this off last minute. But would like to have a few options in place because it definitely has an effect on how trades look in the league for this year.

 

[pkroper22]

Wanted to thank everyone for posting on this topic. It has been a great help. I will take these options to my leaguemates and see what comes of it. Thanks again everyone.

 

[renesauz]

Never been in this situation but I'd steal some pages from the real NFL.

Allow each team to do protected list and hold a dispersal draft for the unprotected. Would need to set limits on amount of players who can be chosen from each team.

Offer the new teams at minimum the first picks in the next rookie draft. Possibly extra first in subsequent years, but more like end of round one. Possibly other picks as well.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. With only 8-teams, virtually every team has more than 1 "stud" player. The new owners would be able to draft quality players. The question remains of how many you could "protect"?

No. Anything that starts with the current 8 owners collecting a certain number of players before letting the new guys take leftovers is completely unfair.

I think you may have misunderstood the question. If applying this logic, I would assume you were against any major sports expanding to more teams?

I don't think your dynasty league and WNBA expansion are the same thing. But most of those expansion drafts are completely unfair too.

Let's say you all keep 3 guys before letting the newbies have anyone. You've taken the top 24 players off the board before they get anyone. How is this fair? Would you join a dynasty league where you start with 0 players and between 67% and 80% of the league starts off with 3+ players? It's like giving up your first 3 rounds in a startup draft for nothing in return.

If I could then take 5 or 6 in the 25-40 area? Probably fine with it.
There are a number of ways to do this but starting with every team able to protect 3 or 4 guys is fine. I'd say 3, and two more as soon as one of their players is taken. 8 teams is a tiny league, the new teams will be able to get plenty of good players off those rosters. Then the expansion team get an extra first round...top two picks, and then 1 each between first two rounds. Half price first year but should be competitive by second year in