Eli Manning, Retired and the HoF Debate (2 Viewers)

[CalBear]

It's not the Hall of Great Football Players, y'all.

Eli falls on a spectrum somewhere between Hall of Famer and Gene Tenace.

Right.

fame
noun [ U ]

/feɪm/

the state of being known or recognized by many people because of your achievements, skills, etc.:

If Eli doesn’t equal fame, Very few do.

See, I disagree. The purpose of the HOF in all sports is to honor the great players through the induction process, to celebrate their excellence by memorializing them for all to view, and to preserve the history of the game through the stories of these players as well as other exhibits.

It’s not about fame. William Perry is famous, but not a hall of famer (actually that’s false as he’s in the WWE hall of fame). It’s not about including players necessary to tell the story. Kapernick plays an important role in the somewhat recent story of the NFL but not a hall of famer.

Eli Manning is the brother of a hall of famer who had a nice long career as a starter in a big time market with some moments of greatness is the postseason. He wasn’t a great player. I’m not sure he’s even in the hall of very good.

The idea that the Hall of Fame isn't about fame is...interesting.

 

[oldmanhawkins]

It's not the Hall of Great Football Players, y'all.

Eli falls on a spectrum somewhere between Hall of Famer and Gene Tenace.

Right.

fame
noun [ U ]

/feɪm/

the state of being known or recognized by many people because of your achievements, skills, etc.:

If Eli doesn’t equal fame, Very few do.

See, I disagree. The purpose of the HOF in all sports is to honor the great players through the induction process, to celebrate their excellence by memorializing them for all to view, and to preserve the history of the game through the stories of these players as well as other exhibits.

It’s not about fame. William Perry is famous, but not a hall of famer (actually that’s false as he’s in the WWE hall of fame). It’s not about including players necessary to tell the story. Kapernick plays an important role in the somewhat recent story of the NFL but not a hall of famer.

Eli Manning is the brother of a hall of famer who had a nice long career as a starter in a big time market with some moments of greatness is the postseason. He wasn’t a great player. I’m not sure he’s even in the hall of very good.

The idea that the Hall of Fame isn't about fame is...interesting.

Which part was a hot take? I’m drawing a distinction between the accomplishments and the celebrity status that frequently accompanies those accomplishments.

 

[CalBear]

It's not the Hall of Great Football Players, y'all.

Eli falls on a spectrum somewhere between Hall of Famer and Gene Tenace.

Right.

fame
noun [ U ]

/feɪm/

the state of being known or recognized by many people because of your achievements, skills, etc.:

If Eli doesn’t equal fame, Very few do.

See, I disagree. The purpose of the HOF in all sports is to honor the great players through the induction process, to celebrate their excellence by memorializing them for all to view, and to preserve the history of the game through the stories of these players as well as other exhibits.

It’s not about fame. William Perry is famous, but not a hall of famer (actually that’s false as he’s in the WWE hall of fame). It’s not about including players necessary to tell the story. Kapernick plays an important role in the somewhat recent story of the NFL but not a hall of famer.

Eli Manning is the brother of a hall of famer who had a nice long career as a starter in a big time market with some moments of greatness is the postseason. He wasn’t a great player. I’m not sure he’s even in the hall of very good.

The idea that the Hall of Fame isn't about fame is...interesting.

Which part was a hot take? I’m drawing a distinction between the accomplishments and the celebrity status that frequently accompanies those accomplishments.

It has Fame right in the name. Celebrity accomplishments absolutely matter. Jerome Bettis belongs in because he was famous. Marshawn will get in because he's famous. And Eli will get in, too. I mean, I can't imagine any QB winning multiple Super Bowls at this point without getting in, deserved or not, and certainly Eli will make it.

 

[oldmanhawkins]

It's not the Hall of Great Football Players, y'all.

Eli falls on a spectrum somewhere between Hall of Famer and Gene Tenace.

Right.

fame
noun [ U ]

/feɪm/

the state of being known or recognized by many people because of your achievements, skills, etc.:

If Eli doesn’t equal fame, Very few do.

See, I disagree. The purpose of the HOF in all sports is to honor the great players through the induction process, to celebrate their excellence by memorializing them for all to view, and to preserve the history of the game through the stories of these players as well as other exhibits.

It’s not about fame. William Perry is famous, but not a hall of famer (actually that’s false as he’s in the WWE hall of fame). It’s not about including players necessary to tell the story. Kapernick plays an important role in the somewhat recent story of the NFL but not a hall of famer.

Eli Manning is the brother of a hall of famer who had a nice long career as a starter in a big time market with some moments of greatness is the postseason. He wasn’t a great player. I’m not sure he’s even in the hall of very good.

The idea that the Hall of Fame isn't about fame is...interesting.

Which part was a hot take? I’m drawing a distinction between the accomplishments and the celebrity status that frequently accompanies those accomplishments.

It has Fame right in the name. Celebrity accomplishments absolutely matter. Jerome Bettis belongs in because he was famous. Marshawn will get in because he's famous. And Eli will get in, too. I mean, I can't imagine any QB winning multiple Super Bowls at this point without getting in, deserved or not, and certainly Eli will make it.

Huge difference in the level of fame that today’s athletes achieve compared to when the hall was established in the 60s. Hall of Legends would be more apt and that was clearly what was intended.

The players that are in the hall talk of other hall-worthy players all the time and their opinions of each other matter. I personally think Bettis isn’t a HOFer but I could say that about a dozen players. He’s well regarded among the players he played against. I’d be curious to hear honest opinions from players about Eli. If they thought he was more than an average starting QB I could be swayed. As a fan, I never worried facing him 2x a year.

 

[Faust]

Ex-Giants QB Eli Manning 'at peace' with Hall of Fame miss

 

[renesauz]

It's not the Hall of Great Football Players, y'all.

Eli falls on a spectrum somewhere between Hall of Famer and Gene Tenace.

no, it isn't. it's the hall of FAME. Fame <> great. Eli has fame, he doesn't have great. NFL history is littered with great players who aren't in, and more then a few merely good players who are in.

The hall of fame isn't meant to be (only) the very best players, but the most influential/important ones. A small, but very important distinction. Eli belongs not because he was great, but because he was important to the story of the NFL

 

[oldmanhawkins]

It's not the Hall of Great Football Players, y'all.

Eli falls on a spectrum somewhere between Hall of Famer and Gene Tenace.

no, it isn't. it's the hall of FAME. Fame <> great. Eli has fame, he doesn't have great. NFL history is littered with great players who aren't in, and more then a few merely good players who are in.

The hall of fame isn't meant to be (only) the very best players, but the most influential/important ones. A small, but very important distinction. Eli belongs not because he was great, but because he was important to the story of the NFL

the problem I have with folks repeating these statements about telling the “story of the nfl” and about popularity being as important than greatness on the field is it does not agree with the way Canton themselves state that players are chosen.

“Charged with the vital task of continuing to be sure that new enshrinees are the finest the game has produced…”

It sounds nice and it works for a few fringe players that snuck in, but it isn’t accurate.

 

[msudaisy26]

IMO this discussion should start and end with the fact that in 16 years he was never an All Pro, not once. The fact that he was never one of the two best players at his position for a single season means you weren't one of the best and shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

 

[Tau837]

IMO this discussion should start and end with the fact that in 16 years he was never an All Pro, not once. The fact that he was never one of the two best players at his position for a single season means you weren't one of the best and shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

So you wouldn't have Aikman in and wouldn't put Roethlisberger or Stafford in?

 

[Anarchy99]

IMO this discussion should start and end with the fact that in 16 years he was never an All Pro, not once. The fact that he was never one of the two best players at his position for a single season means you weren't one of the best and shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

It's actually worse than that. He was never a first team or second team All-Pro (meaning never Top 4). Do you know who else has won 2 SBs and also was never a first or second team All-Pro? Ben Roethisberger. And he played 18 years.

 

[-OZ-]

IMO this discussion should start and end with the fact that in 16 years he was never an All Pro, not once. The fact that he was never one of the two best players at his position for a single season means you weren't one of the best and shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

It's actually worse than that. He was never a first team or second team All-Pro (meaning never Top 4). Do you know who else has won 2 SBs and also was never a first or second team All-Pro? Ben Roethisberger. And he played 18 years.

He wasn’t the MVP for either.
Maybe that doesn’t matter. IMO it pushes Eli over the line. It’s no travesty that he didn’t make it or if he never does, but I’d put him in. Kuechly first.

 

[msudaisy26]

IMO this discussion should start and end with the fact that in 16 years he was never an All Pro, not once. The fact that he was never one of the two best players at his position for a single season means you weren't one of the best and shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

So you wouldn't have Aikman in and wouldn't put Roethlisberger or Stafford in?

I would have to look more at Aikman. Ben and Stafford no.

 

[msudaisy26]

IMO this discussion should start and end with the fact that in 16 years he was never an All Pro, not once. The fact that he was never one of the two best players at his position for a single season means you weren't one of the best and shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

It's actually worse than that. He was never a first team or second team All-Pro (meaning never Top 4). Do you know who else has won 2 SBs and also was never a first or second team All-Pro? Ben Roethisberger. And he played 18 years.

They take two qbs for each all pro team? That seems wrong.

 

[Anarchy99]

IMO this discussion should start and end with the fact that in 16 years he was never an All Pro, not once. The fact that he was never one of the two best players at his position for a single season means you weren't one of the best and shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

It's actually worse than that. He was never a first team or second team All-Pro (meaning never Top 4). Do you know who else has won 2 SBs and also was never a first or second team All-Pro? Ben Roethisberger. And he played 18 years.

They take two qbs for each all pro team? That seems wrong.

If there is a rhyme or reason for how these people vote, they haven’t bothered to tell anyone. This year’s voters did not have the league MVP on the All-Pro first team. The same people that voted for all these things had Lamar as the top vote getter at QB, followed by Goff, then Allen.

 

[msudaisy26]

IMO this discussion should start and end with the fact that in 16 years he was never an All Pro, not once. The fact that he was never one of the two best players at his position for a single season means you weren't one of the best and shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

It's actually worse than that. He was never a first team or second team All-Pro (meaning never Top 4). Do you know who else has won 2 SBs and also was never a first or second team All-Pro? Ben Roethisberger. And he played 18 years.

They take two qbs for each all pro team? That seems wrong.

If there is a rhyme or reason for how these people vote, they haven’t bothered to tell anyone. This year’s voters did not have the league MVP on the All-Pro first team. The same people that voted for all these things had Lamar as the top vote getter at QB, followed by Goff, then Allen.

I am still not seeing this. First team All Pro qb was Jackson, second team was Allen. I don't see Goff or four total qbs.

 

[Anarchy99]

IMO this discussion should start and end with the fact that in 16 years he was never an All Pro, not once. The fact that he was never one of the two best players at his position for a single season means you weren't one of the best and shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

It's actually worse than that. He was never a first team or second team All-Pro (meaning never Top 4). Do you know who else has won 2 SBs and also was never a first or second team All-Pro? Ben Roethisberger. And he played 18 years.

They take two qbs for each all pro team? That seems wrong.

If there is a rhyme or reason for how these people vote, they haven’t bothered to tell anyone. This year’s voters did not have the league MVP on the All-Pro first team. The same people that voted for all these things had Lamar as the top vote getter at QB, followed by Goff, then Allen.

I am still not seeing this. First team All Pro qb was Jackson, second team was Allen. I don't see Goff or four total qbs.

2024 NFL All-Pros | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2024 NFL All-Pros including AFC and NFC results and standings on Pro-football-reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[need2know]

He should be in. But man he had alot of average stats

 

[msudaisy26]

IMO this discussion should start and end with the fact that in 16 years he was never an All Pro, not once. The fact that he was never one of the two best players at his position for a single season means you weren't one of the best and shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

It's actually worse than that. He was never a first team or second team All-Pro (meaning never Top 4). Do you know who else has won 2 SBs and also was never a first or second team All-Pro? Ben Roethisberger. And he played 18 years.

They take two qbs for each all pro team? That seems wrong.

If there is a rhyme or reason for how these people vote, they haven’t bothered to tell anyone. This year’s voters did not have the league MVP on the All-Pro first team. The same people that voted for all these things had Lamar as the top vote getter at QB, followed by Goff, then Allen.

I am still not seeing this. First team All Pro qb was Jackson, second team was Allen. I don't see Goff or four total qbs.

2024 NFL All-Pros | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2024 NFL All-Pros including AFC and NFC results and standings on Pro-football-reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

Isn't that all conference? How could Allen beat out Goff for all conference in the NFC?

 

[Anarchy99]

IMO this discussion should start and end with the fact that in 16 years he was never an All Pro, not once. The fact that he was never one of the two best players at his position for a single season means you weren't one of the best and shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

It's actually worse than that. He was never a first team or second team All-Pro (meaning never Top 4). Do you know who else has won 2 SBs and also was never a first or second team All-Pro? Ben Roethisberger. And he played 18 years.

They take two qbs for each all pro team? That seems wrong.

If there is a rhyme or reason for how these people vote, they haven’t bothered to tell anyone. This year’s voters did not have the league MVP on the All-Pro first team. The same people that voted for all these things had Lamar as the top vote getter at QB, followed by Goff, then Allen.

I am still not seeing this. First team All Pro qb was Jackson, second team was Allen. I don't see Goff or four total qbs.

2024 NFL All-Pros | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2024 NFL All-Pros including AFC and NFC results and standings on Pro-football-reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

Isn't that all conference? How could Allen beat out Goff for all conference in the NFC?

You’re right. The way PFR lists things is confusing. The top says All Pros but they describe all conference.

 

[Chaka]

You may be able to tell the story of the NFL without Eli but, you can't tell the story of Tom Brady without Eli.

 

[msudaisy26]

You may be able to tell the story of the NFL without Eli but, you can't tell the story of Tom Brady without Eli.

You could. Take away Giants and Patriots from those super bowls. Brady is considered the goat, but because you can't still doesn't make Eli a hall of famer because he was a villian to Brady. Flacco and the Ravens gave the Patriots a rough time too.

 

[Lansdowne]

You may be able to tell the story of the NFL without Eli but, you can't tell the story of Tom Brady without Eli.

You have it mixed up. You can’t tell the story of Eli without Tom Brady. Eli isn’t even in this discussion if his two rings came against Philip Rivers and Joe Flacco. Beating the Pats carries a ton of weight into his argument for getting in, despite him not doing anything in the playoffs in the other 14 years of his playing career.

 

[Chaka]

You may be able to tell the story of the NFL without Eli but, you can't tell the story of Tom Brady without Eli.

You have it mixed up. You can’t tell the story of Eli without Tom Brady.

Both can be true.

 

[Lansdowne]

You may be able to tell the story of the NFL without Eli but, you can't tell the story of Tom Brady without Eli.

You have it mixed up. You can’t tell the story of Eli without Tom Brady.

Both can be true.

It’s true in the same way that it’s true if you swapped Eli’s name for Nick Foles. It doesn’t change Brady’s HOF narrative. Removing Brady from Eli’s story substantially changes Eli’s HOF narrative. That’s the difference.

 

[Chaka]

You may be able to tell the story of the NFL without Eli but, you can't tell the story of Tom Brady without Eli.

You have it mixed up. You can’t tell the story of Eli without Tom Brady.

Both can be true.

It’s true in the same way that it’s true if you swapped Eli’s name for Nick Foles. It doesn’t change Brady’s HOF narrative. Removing Brady from Eli’s story substantially changes Eli’s HOF narrative. That’s the difference.

I think there is a kinda large 176 game difference between Foles and Eli. Nick Foles is the Drew Bennett of QBs.

Eli was a better version of Troy Aikman yet, for some reason, no one questions Troy's HoF credentials.

If Aikman and Lynn Swann are in the HoF, Eli is an unquestioned HoFer.

Agree that he wasn't a first ballot guy, but he belongs in without a doubt.

 

[Moonlight]

Numbers don’t back him for the HOF. What he has going is the Manning name which has now become a brand and the two SBs.
Why not put Rypien, Doug Williams or Foles or Flacco in too.
Every team or player I think has a nemesis that has abnormal success against them.

For New England it was Eli in SBs while Manning was mediocre elsewhere in his career.

 

[-OZ-]

Numbers don’t back him for the HOF. What he has going is the Manning name which has now become a brand and the two SBs.
Why not put Rypien, Doug Williams or Foles or Flacco in too.
Every team or player I think has a nemesis that has abnormal success against them.

For New England it was Eli in SBs while Manning was mediocre elsewhere in his career.

I missed where rypien, Williams and Foles won 2 rings as MVP.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Numbers don’t back him for the HOF. What he has going is the Manning name which has now become a brand and the two SBs.
Why not put Rypien, Doug Williams or Foles or Flacco in too.
Every team or player I think has a nemesis that has abnormal success against them.

For New England it was Eli in SBs while Manning was mediocre elsewhere in his career.

I missed where rypien, Williams and Foles won 2 rings as MVP.

Eli's Giants also beat six other teams oh their way to the SB wins against the Pats and those teams were the cream of the crop in the NFC those seasons so it's not like Eli played against dogs on the way up.

 

[Moonlight]

Numbers don’t back him for the HOF. What he has going is the Manning name which has now become a brand and the two SBs.
Why not put Rypien, Doug Williams or Foles or Flacco in too.
Every team or player I think has a nemesis that has abnormal success against them.

For New England it was Eli in SBs while Manning was mediocre elsewhere in his career.

I missed where rypien, Williams and Foles won 2 rings as MVP.

They didn’t of course but they demonstrate the quality of quarterbacks that have won SBs.
Eli just did it twice.
All of his numbers are those of a slightly better than average Quarterback.

 

[rockaction]

It's not the Hall of Great Football Players, y'all.

Eli falls on a spectrum somewhere between Hall of Famer and Gene Tenace.

Right.

fame
noun [ U ]

/feɪm/

the state of being known or recognized by many people because of your achievements, skills, etc.:

If Eli doesn’t equal fame, Very few do.

See, I disagree. The purpose of the HOF in all sports is to honor the great players through the induction process, to celebrate their excellence by memorializing them for all to view, and to preserve the history of the game through the stories of these players as well as other exhibits.

It’s not about fame. William Perry is famous, but not a hall of famer (actually that’s false as he’s in the WWE hall of fame). It’s not about including players necessary to tell the story. Kapernick plays an important role in the somewhat recent story of the NFL but not a hall of famer.

Eli Manning is the brother of a hall of famer who had a nice long career as a starter in a big time market with some moments of greatness is the postseason. He wasn’t a great player. I’m not sure he’s even in the hall of very good.

The idea that the Hall of Fame isn't about fame is...interesting.

As a word, "fame" hinges on public reputation and renown. It is not simply being "famous" in the way you're thinking of the word. You're thinking of the word "fame" as something that is "known" and not paying attention to the meritorious part of the equation. It must both be known and be excellent to have that sort of pinnacle and honor bestowed upon someone. Fame is predicated on some sort of standards of public acknowledgement of merit and excellence.

Manning might make the HoF, but he belongs in the Hall of Cool for beating the Patriots, not in the Hall of Fame for being the best at his sport. He was . . . eh . . . and happened to play in NY and came up big for two big stretches of his career.

 

[-OZ-]

Numbers don’t back him for the HOF. What he has going is the Manning name which has now become a brand and the two SBs.
Why not put Rypien, Doug Williams or Foles or Flacco in too.
Every team or player I think has a nemesis that has abnormal success against them.

For New England it was Eli in SBs while Manning was mediocre elsewhere in his career.

I missed where rypien, Williams and Foles won 2 rings as MVP.

They didn’t of course but they demonstrate the quality of quarterbacks that have won SBs.
Eli just did it twice.
All of his numbers are those of a slightly better than average Quarterback.

Right. Which is why there’s a debate.
I think he’s fringe, but would nudge him in. It’s not a travesty if he’s not in.

 

[Anarchy99]

Numbers don’t back him for the HOF. What he has going is the Manning name which has now become a brand and the two SBs.
Why not put Rypien, Doug Williams or Foles or Flacco in too.
Every team or player I think has a nemesis that has abnormal success against them.

For New England it was Eli in SBs while Manning was mediocre elsewhere in his career.

I missed where rypien, Williams and Foles won 2 rings as MVP.

Eli's Giants also beat six other teams oh their way to the SB wins against the Pats and those teams were the cream of the crop in the NFC those seasons so it's not like Eli played against dogs on the way up.

To twist things based on the way this was presented . . . the 8 playoff games in the Giants / Eli's Super Bowl winning years seemingly trumps the other 240 regular season and playoff games he played in. It is what it is. Eli will get in eventually for all the reasons that have been discussed already. I doubt all the other less flattering stats will keep him out.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Numbers don’t back him for the HOF. What he has going is the Manning name which has now become a brand and the two SBs.
Why not put Rypien, Doug Williams or Foles or Flacco in too.
Every team or player I think has a nemesis that has abnormal success against them.

For New England it was Eli in SBs while Manning was mediocre elsewhere in his career.

I missed where rypien, Williams and Foles won 2 rings as MVP.

Eli's Giants also beat six other teams oh their way to the SB wins against the Pats and those teams were the cream of the crop in the NFC those seasons so it's not like Eli played against dogs on the way up.

To twist things based on the way this was presented . . . the 8 playoff games in the Giants / Eli's Super Bowl winning years seemingly trumps the other 240 regular season and playoff games he played in. It is what it is. Eli will get in eventually for all the reasons that have been discussed already. I doubt all the other less flattering stats will keep him out.

I was more responding to the thought Rypien, Williams, Foles or Flacco were direct comps to Eli. Two SB runs do matter in that regard, imo.

 

[rockaction]

Two SB runs do matter in that regard, imo

Roethlisberger also won two, I think, and that will matter a bunch for his candidacy even though he didn't do much to help win the first one. But he went to three, which means something.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

Peter King once said that players in the HOF were there because you couldn't tell the story of the NFL without them.

That characterization may be a bit too high brow, but I will say that the 5-year waiting period for consideration has only helped Eli and beating the Patriots in SB twice is as cool a resume builder as anyone can have.

That's a dumb standard by King. I mean, if we are using that, then David Tyree has to go in the Hall as well since the defining catch of the Super Bowl where they beat the undefeated Patriots was made by Tyree.

Perhaps, but I heard it referenced a bunch this weekend.

 

[Ray_T]

Ex-Giants QB Eli Manning 'at peace' with Hall of Fame miss

I'm on the fence for this. guy won a couple superbowls. hard to imagine he wouldnt make the hall. but statistically he was rarely in the top 3 or 4 QB so I guess he was just a very good QB on a very good team that somehow won 2 superbowls. that sounds funny.... honestly it does.

Im not a huge fan of his and I'm not upset about this but the story about how they beat the undefeated pats is a story of legend. from that perspective, it may have been the greatest upset win in the history of the superbowl. so in terms of telling the story of the league, how do you not put him in the hall? and the fact he won the superbowl twice...... That's saying something. a lot of great QBs out there have never won a superbowl.

but yeah when I look at him. he was not always a QB who took over a game and put the team on his shoulders but he rarely got himself into a position where he had to.

so yeah, I have mixed feelings about this.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

Ex-Giants QB Eli Manning 'at peace' with Hall of Fame miss

I'm on the fence for this. guy won a couple superbowls. hard to imagine he wouldnt make the hall. but statistically he was rarely in the top 3 or 4 QB so I guess he was just a very good QB on a very good team that somehow won 2 superbowls. that sounds funny.... honestly it does.

Im not a huge fan of his and I'm not upset about this but the story about how they beat the undefeated pats is a story of legend. from that perspective, it may have been the greatest upset win in the history of the superbowl. so in terms of telling the story of the league, how do you not put him in the hall? and the fact he won the superbowl twice...... That's saying something. a lot of great QBs out there have never won a superbowl.

but yeah when I look at him. he was not always a QB who took over a game and put the team on his shoulders but he rarely got himself into a position where he had to.

so yeah, I have mixed feelings about this.

I'd also say this...and it might be an unpopular take.

But the fact that he is a Manning isn't a 'non-zero' factor in the evaluation here and IMO is actually a positive.

Brady was his big brothers kryptonite for the most part and yet, it was little bro that dealt the GOAT his most humbling and unsuspecting lows.

 

[Ray_T]

Ex-Giants QB Eli Manning 'at peace' with Hall of Fame miss

I'm on the fence for this. guy won a couple superbowls. hard to imagine he wouldnt make the hall. but statistically he was rarely in the top 3 or 4 QB so I guess he was just a very good QB on a very good team that somehow won 2 superbowls. that sounds funny.... honestly it does.

Im not a huge fan of his and I'm not upset about this but the story about how they beat the undefeated pats is a story of legend. from that perspective, it may have been the greatest upset win in the history of the superbowl. so in terms of telling the story of the league, how do you not put him in the hall? and the fact he won the superbowl twice...... That's saying something. a lot of great QBs out there have never won a superbowl.

but yeah when I look at him. he was not always a QB who took over a game and put the team on his shoulders but he rarely got himself into a position where he had to.

so yeah, I have mixed feelings about this.

I'd also say this...and it might be an unpopular take.

But the fact that he is a Manning isn't a 'non-zero' factor in the evaluation here and IMO is actually a positive.

Brady was his big brothers kryptonite for the most part and yet, it was little bro that dealt the GOAT his most humbling and unsuspecting lows.

yeah, so true. but that alone likely doesnt warrant making the HOF. I put more weight on the 2 superbowls. though that legendary upset certainly does it for me. just because it was such a compelling story i'd have probably voted for him to go in. the HOF is a place for great stories, and that was one of the greatest. in the whole David and goliath context Eli was definitely David. his teams were not dominant but they did win

 

[TheDirtyWord]

Ex-Giants QB Eli Manning 'at peace' with Hall of Fame miss

I'm on the fence for this. guy won a couple superbowls. hard to imagine he wouldnt make the hall. but statistically he was rarely in the top 3 or 4 QB so I guess he was just a very good QB on a very good team that somehow won 2 superbowls. that sounds funny.... honestly it does.

Im not a huge fan of his and I'm not upset about this but the story about how they beat the undefeated pats is a story of legend. from that perspective, it may have been the greatest upset win in the history of the superbowl. so in terms of telling the story of the league, how do you not put him in the hall? and the fact he won the superbowl twice...... That's saying something. a lot of great QBs out there have never won a superbowl.

but yeah when I look at him. he was not always a QB who took over a game and put the team on his shoulders but he rarely got himself into a position where he had to.

so yeah, I have mixed feelings about this.

I'd also say this...and it might be an unpopular take.

But the fact that he is a Manning isn't a 'non-zero' factor in the evaluation here and IMO is actually a positive.

Brady was his big brothers kryptonite for the most part and yet, it was little bro that dealt the GOAT his most humbling and unsuspecting lows.

yeah, so true. but that alone likely doesnt warrant making the HOF. I put more weight on the 2 superbowls. though that legendary upset certainly does it for me. just because it was such a compelling story i'd have probably voted for him to go in. the HOF is a place for great stories, and that was one of the greatest. in the whole David and goliath context Eli was definitely David. his teams were not dominant but they did win

He's the David in the Manning family...like has there ever been a better representation of David in NFL history?

Yes...the SB's were the must haves for this conversation to even be taking place. But in those moments, he was dead-on with the slingshot while his brother looked on from the luxury suite wondering 'how?'

 

[pinkstapler]

Ex-Giants QB Eli Manning 'at peace' with Hall of Fame miss

I'm on the fence for this. guy won a couple superbowls. hard to imagine he wouldnt make the hall. but statistically he was rarely in the top 3 or 4 QB so I guess he was just a very good QB on a very good team that somehow won 2 superbowls. that sounds funny.... honestly it does.

Im not a huge fan of his and I'm not upset about this but the story about how they beat the undefeated pats is a story of legend. from that perspective, it may have been the greatest upset win in the history of the superbowl. so in terms of telling the story of the league, how do you not put him in the hall? and the fact he won the superbowl twice...... That's saying something. a lot of great QBs out there have never won a superbowl.

but yeah when I look at him. he was not always a QB who took over a game and put the team on his shoulders but he rarely got himself into a position where he had to.

so yeah, I have mixed feelings about this.

I'd also say this...and it might be an unpopular take.

But the fact that he is a Manning isn't a 'non-zero' factor in the evaluation here and IMO is actually a positive.

Brady was his big brothers kryptonite for the most part and yet, it was little bro that dealt the GOAT his most humbling and unsuspecting lows.

yeah, so true. but that alone likely doesnt warrant making the HOF. I put more weight on the 2 superbowls. though that legendary upset certainly does it for me. just because it was such a compelling story i'd have probably voted for him to go in. the HOF is a place for great stories, and that was one of the greatest. in the whole David and goliath context Eli was definitely David. his teams were not dominant but they did win

He's the David in the Manning family...like has there ever been a better representation of David in NFL history?

Yes...the SB's were the must haves for this conversation to even be taking place. But in those moments, he was dead-on with the slingshot while his brother looked on from the luxury suite wondering 'how?'

I'd imagine Peyton saw how and it was for the most part a defense in 2007 that held a Patriots team which averaged 37(!!!!) points a game in the regular season to only 14. And very similarly, a defense in 2011 that held a Patriots team that averaged 32 points a game to only 17. The Giants won those games by 3 points and 4 points respectively.

More people seemingly remember Tyree catching a ball against his helmet rather than a defense that kept one of the more prolific offenses I'd seen in my lifetime in complete check. That 2007 Pats offense scored 589 points, with 75 TDs, and a +315 point differential. Pretty sure they were all records at the time. Might still be. And 2011 with Welker, Gronk, and Hernandez wasn't anything to sneeze at either. Manning didn't cause the Giants to lose much more than was the reason they won IMHO.

I'm not trying to berate Eli. I said earlier in the thread he's one of the most clutch players ever. But to continually read how "he beat the Patriots twice" is maddening semantically. Strahan, Osi, AP, Tuck, JPP, Rolle, etc. stopped the Pats train from steam rolling to another 2 championships. Eli helped.

 

[Anarchy99]

Part of the problem for Eli is for the things he did well or ranked high in, he has just as many negative things to go along with it. We all know he ranks 11th in passing yards and passing TD. But he ranks 20th in sacks,12th in interceptions, 7th in fumbles, and 2nd in turnovers. He also only ranks 65th in completion%, 66th in QB rating, 99th in YPA, and 146th in yds/completion. He's a true definition of a mixed bag.

 

[Ray_T]

Part of the problem for Eli is for the things he did well or ranked high in, he has just as many negative things to go along with it. We all know he ranks 11th in passing yards and passing TD. But he ranks 20th in sacks,12th in interceptions, 7th in fumbles, and 2nd in turnovers. He also only ranks 65th in completion%, 66th in QB rating, 99th in YPA, and 146th in yds/completion. He's a true definition of a mixed bag.

true. but the O line in New york was really really bad for some of those years. I dont lay that blame at the foot of the QB. Eli performed reasonably well despite those shortcomings in the offense.

either way, for me its the superbowls that made him a candidate for this conversation. and the fact that he engineered what may have been the greatest superbowl upset of all time. Is that enough? I know some say no, but if the purpose of the HOF is to tell the story/history of the league, how do you leave this out?

 

[oldmanhawkins]

For those you that think Eli is a HOFer because of those Super Bowl wins…

Is Justin Tuck also a HOFer? He has a stronger case than Eli for his regular season numbers and awards, I think. He also played his best on the biggest stage. And, technically speaking, he had a larger impact in taking down Brady than Eli did. Tuck had 2 sacks in each game.

Personally I think Tuck also falls short of the standard. But…If you put one of them in, why not the other?

 

[Ray_T]

For those you that think Eli is a HOFer because of those Super Bowl wins…

Is Justin Tuck also a HOFer? He has a stronger case than Eli for his regular season numbers and awards, I think. He also played his best on the biggest stage. And, technically speaking, he had a larger impact in taking down Brady than Eli did. Tuck had 2 sacks in each game.

Personally I think Tuck also falls short of the standard. But…If you put one of them in, why not the other?

tucker probably would have been one. but now that hes got some (we will say....off field issues) I suspect he wont get in.

 

[Marauder]

For those you that think Eli is a HOFer because of those Super Bowl wins…

Is Justin Tuck also a HOFer? He has a stronger case than Eli for his regular season numbers and awards, I think. He also played his best on the biggest stage. And, technically speaking, he had a larger impact in taking down Brady than Eli did. Tuck had 2 sacks in each game.

Personally I think Tuck also falls short of the standard. But…If you put one of them in, why not the other?

Eli was the MVP in both Super Bowls, and QB's always get credit for wins/losses. DE's don't.

BTW, I'm not one of the people saying Eli should get in because of the two SB wins, but you do have to factor them into the conversation. I'm on the fence whether he should get in.

 

[Tau837]

For those you that think Eli is a HOFer because of those Super Bowl wins…

Is Justin Tuck also a HOFer? He has a stronger case than Eli for his regular season numbers and awards, I think. He also played his best on the biggest stage. And, technically speaking, he had a larger impact in taking down Brady than Eli did. Tuck had 2 sacks in each game.

Personally I think Tuck also falls short of the standard. But…If you put one of them in, why not the other?

This is simply not true.

Tuck had 1 AP1, 1 AP2, and 2 Pro Bowls, all of which occurred in 2 seasons. Compared to 2 SBMVPs and 4 Pro Bowls for Eli, which occurred across 5 different seasons. If anything, I would give the edge to Eli here.

Eli's last season was 2019. Even 5 years later, he ranks #11 all time in completions, passing yards, passing TDs, and total offense; #12 in game winning drives; and #16 in comebacks. Tuck is #47 in tackles for loss; #73 in forced fumbles; and #123 in sacks (#185 in unofficial sacks). Huge edge to Eli here.

Eli is #29 all time in games started and started 234 games. Tuck started 107 games and played in 147. Huge edge to Eli here... he delivered much more value to his teams.

This is not even close.

 

[Lansdowne]

For those you that think Eli is a HOFer because of those Super Bowl wins…

Is Justin Tuck also a HOFer? He has a stronger case than Eli for his regular season numbers and awards, I think. He also played his best on the biggest stage. And, technically speaking, he had a larger impact in taking down Brady than Eli did. Tuck had 2 sacks in each game.

Personally I think Tuck also falls short of the standard. But…If you put one of them in, why not the other?

tucker probably would have been one. but now that hes got some (we will say....off field issues) I suspect he wont get in.

I think you’re confusing Justin Tuck (the Giants defensive lineman) for Justin Tucker (the Ravens kicker). There’s no baggage for Tuck that I’m aware of.

 

[oldmanhawkins]

For those you that think Eli is a HOFer because of those Super Bowl wins…

Is Justin Tuck also a HOFer? He has a stronger case than Eli for his regular season numbers and awards, I think. He also played his best on the biggest stage. And, technically speaking, he had a larger impact in taking down Brady than Eli did. Tuck had 2 sacks in each game.

Personally I think Tuck also falls short of the standard. But…If you put one of them in, why not the other?

This is simply not true.

Tuck had 1 AP1, 1 AP2, and 2 Pro Bowls, all of which occurred in 2 seasons. Compared to 2 SBMVPs and 4 Pro Bowls for Eli, which occurred across 5 different seasons. If anything, I would give the edge to Eli here.

Eli's last season was 2019. Even 5 years later, he ranks #11 all time in completions, passing yards, passing TDs, and total offense; #12 in game winning drives; and #16 in comebacks. Tuck is #47 in tackles for loss; #73 in forced fumbles; and #123 in sacks (#185 in unofficial sacks). Huge edge to Eli here.

Eli is #29 all time in games started and started 234 games. Tuck started 107 games and played in 147. Huge edge to Eli here... he delivered much more value to his teams.

This is not even close.

At the very least, it’s debatable. Note that I said regular season stats and awards. All pros are lot more meaningful than pro bowls. Eli’s four pro bowls in 16 years are pretty underwhelming. Dak and Carr have each been to four, for comparison.
Tuck had 2 maybe 3 really good seasons where he was one of the best DEs in the game. His 2008 was exceptional. Eli never had a season where he was one of the best QBs in the game. Tuck didn’t maintain his excellence long enough but he did play his best on the biggest stage and he helped lead the defense that shut down the greatest QB of all time. This doesn’t make him a HOfer in my book, but for folks who think Eli is, it feels like the argument should carry over.
Eli played 16 years which explains his overall rankings. It’s another example of the redundancy in the argument of why Eli should be in. He won two Super Bowls AND has two Super Bowl MVPs. He played a long time and has compiled a lot of counting stats.

 

[Tau837]

For those you that think Eli is a HOFer because of those Super Bowl wins…

Is Justin Tuck also a HOFer? He has a stronger case than Eli for his regular season numbers and awards, I think. He also played his best on the biggest stage. And, technically speaking, he had a larger impact in taking down Brady than Eli did. Tuck had 2 sacks in each game.

Personally I think Tuck also falls short of the standard. But…If you put one of them in, why not the other?

This is simply not true.

Tuck had 1 AP1, 1 AP2, and 2 Pro Bowls, all of which occurred in 2 seasons. Compared to 2 SBMVPs and 4 Pro Bowls for Eli, which occurred across 5 different seasons. If anything, I would give the edge to Eli here.

Eli's last season was 2019. Even 5 years later, he ranks #11 all time in completions, passing yards, passing TDs, and total offense; #12 in game winning drives; and #16 in comebacks. Tuck is #47 in tackles for loss; #73 in forced fumbles; and #123 in sacks (#185 in unofficial sacks). Huge edge to Eli here.

Eli is #29 all time in games started and started 234 games. Tuck started 107 games and played in 147. Huge edge to Eli here... he delivered much more value to his teams.

This is not even close.

At the very least, it’s debatable. Note that I said regular season stats and awards. All pros are lot more meaningful than pro bowls. Eli’s four pro bowls in 16 years are pretty underwhelming. Dak and Carr have each been to four, for comparison.
Tuck had 2 maybe 3 really good seasons where he was one of the best DEs in the game. His 2008 was exceptional. Eli never had a season where he was one of the best QBs in the game. Tuck didn’t maintain his excellence long enough but he did play his best on the biggest stage and he helped lead the defense that shut down the greatest QB of all time. This doesn’t make him a HOfer in my book, but for folks who think Eli is, it feels like the argument should carry over.
Eli played 16 years which explains his overall rankings. It’s another example of the redundancy in the argument of why Eli should be in. He won two Super Bowls AND has two Super Bowl MVPs. He played a long time and has compiled a lot of counting stats.

Yes, I know you said regular season awards, which is a convenient way to ignore compelling accomplishments for Eli. I don't agree it is meaningful to focus only on regular season for any comparison like this. Eli is going to make it, but he wouldn't without his postseason accomplishments, so it is a meaningless to discuss his candidacy without including them.

I totally get that accumulated stats through longevity are less compelling if not accompanied by great rate stats. That is a reason Rivers was clearly better than Eli.

But, for me, I can't diminish a player who ranks so highly in a lot of the most often cited statistics in football. Add to that, Eli was a key player in two underdog Super Bowl championship runs and made clutch plays in those runs... it's not like he was just along for the ride. He also made clutch plays in the regular season, hence his ranking in GWD and comebacks. And he had incredible durability, which is often overlooked but is valuable.

PFR's HOF Monitor metric has its issues, but it is an okay proxy for an initial/quick look at HOF worthiness. Average HOFer score is ~100. Eli's score is 86.01. Tuck's is 41.83.

Tuck may have had a very short but great peak, but his resume is not comparable to Eli's for the reasons I have outlined. For me, it's not close. It's not in the ballpark. I do not agree that it is debatable.

Happy to agree to disagree about it.

 

[Ray_T]

I totally get that accumulated stats through longevity are less compelling if not accompanied by great rate stats. That is a reason Rivers was clearly better than Eli.

well, I'm not a big fan of Eli or Rivers. but they are (for the most part) comparable QB's. but Eli has him beat in the one stat that counts the most: Superbowl wins.

thats the reason you play the game. To get on top of that mountain.

but in the end, its all a matter of preference.

I dont think Eli deserves to be a first ballot HOF guy. I just think because of his story its tough to ignore the accomplishment. but there are a lot of very good QB who never made the HOF. Clearly Eli is one of those. it really doesnt matter what we think now. the decision has already been made.

but its been nice chatting with you guys about this. I'll step back now and see where the debate goes. cheers guys.