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Eli Manning, Retired and the HoF Debate (2 Viewers)

There has been a longstanding discussion about how "Eli Manning is washed" or "The O-Line difficulties are hiding how washed he is". Eli obviously isn't the elite QB he was 3-4 years ago, but when he has had 3-4 second to throw and let plays develop, he's shown he's no worse than a game manager or as good/better than a lot of other QBs in the league still drawing breath. He did miss a deep shot, but he made the throws and reads when he had time. He sshouldn't start on your fantasy team, but they'll be a few weeks were you can roll to him as an option due to his weapons.

 
It certainly looks like Eli is hearing the footsteps when he drops back... but anybody would behind that O line.

 
Walking Boot said:
The truth is that Eli is playing the same as he always has. There's been no drop off in his talent or abilities.

He's always been this bad. I'm glad it's on display for everyone to see. I hope he spends a few more seasons like this. 
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How does someone who has always been this bad win two Super Bowls with clutch 4th quarter performances?

 
Walking Boot said:
The truth is that Eli is playing the same as he always has. There's been no drop off in his talent or abilities.

He's always been this bad. I'm glad it's on display for everyone to see. I hope he spends a few more seasons like this. 
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Meh.  Always easy to hate.

 
Arodin said:
Well, to be fair, nobody looks at David Tyree’s career highlight catch of all time and thinks “Dang, that QB put it right on the money for him...”
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There was more than just one play Eli participated in as QB during that game..

 
I think he’s getting too much of the blame for the Giants woes.  Dude had been playing with no running game and o-line for many years. A few years ago—he got possibly the most talented but yet most immature WR in the game.  This season—he got the running back—but still no OL.  If the dude routinely has time to throw the ball relativley comfortably—I think he’s still an average or better than average qb.  Most of the fantasy sites have him as being the 18-20th best qb play this week.   With the Giants playing the Falcons—I could see him being closer to top 10-12.  

 
So let’s talk about this week. Prime time take against a horrible pass D and against a team that can put up points in bunches. This one just feels like a game where Eli can out up some numbers.

 
Walking Boot said:
Calling him clutch is focusing on the result and not the decision.

It's like taking a bet at an even money payout, but where you only have a 10% chance of winning. If you win the bet, it doesn't mean you made a good move. Getting bailed out by luck is not a long term solution. It might work out once or twice, but if you keep making that same bet over and over again, after a while, you'll go broke.

That's what Eli is doing this season, losing his shirt. 
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Last I checked what counts the most in NFL games is the end result.

 
kutta said:
So let’s talk about this week. Prime time take against a horrible pass D and against a team that can put up points in bunches. This one just feels like a game where Eli can out up some numbers.
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I agree. All week I’ve been going back  and forth between him and Stafford.  I ultimately ended up going with Stafford because I feel like I prefer a higher floor based on how my opponents team performed on Thursday—and the fact that I was lucky enough to have started the Denver defense. With that said—if I was shooting to start a cheap qb with a high ceiling this week—I think Eli is exactly that. 

 
I'll say what I said in the Roto article:

The biggest truth in the whole "Barkley or a QB?" issue is that the Giants didn't get it wrong by drafting Barkley; that was the right decision. Putting Darnold behind the awful line doesn't make the Giants better and it would've probably limited Sam's development (see Carr, David). The mistake the Giants made is not addressing the line years ago; wasting Eli's prime and making it harder to fix the line now. If by next year Giants invest a few more picks into the line and maybe sign a solid FA lineman, they've accomplished the goal if not for Eli, then for the next QB AND Saquon, because they should have a good run-blocking and pass-blocking unit. If you have an great running game/defense, you can make the postseason with a game-mangaer QB.

Would it be great to get a franchise QB? Sure. But getting a once in a generation RB isn't a consolation prize.
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Now regarding whether you "believe" in him, I think his mind is such that if you had an effective line, you could make the postseason with him. But there isn't a QB around that could survive long with this line. If Eli gets heavy pressure early he's shot for the rest of the game.

 
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Eli Manning completed 27-of-38 passes for 399 yards and one touchdown in the Giants' Week 7 loss to the Falcons.

Manning had a huge second half, but the offense really struggled in the red zone. Manning didn't throw his touchdown until he heaved a prayer for a one-yard score to Odell Beckham with five seconds left on the clock after Manning failed to score on consecutive QB sneaks from the one-yard line. Earlier in the game, he missed OBJ on an open nine-yard touchdown before the Giants had to settle for a field goal. Manning's 399 yards mark a season-best, but this offense is still broken. Manning won't be a recommended play next week against the Redskins.

Oct 22 - 11:48 PM
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Walking Boot said:
Clutch? 

They play before he gambled the Super Bowl on a wounded duck throw into double coverage that was only bailed out by the skill of his receiver catching the ball with his helmet, he threw a game-ending interception directly into the hands of Asante Samuel. Probably the only reason Samuel didn't make the catch was he was stunned at how easy it was going to be to win the game for his team. 

Eli throws that pick, the Pats go 18-0, and Eli is done in NY. He'd never get to the second Super Bowl. 

Eli always makes ill advised throws and just hope someone else rescues him. He gambles with the ball too much in moments where the game hangs in the balance. He gives it away too easily. He'll get the team into a situation where they need to make a play to have a chance, and then he'll do something where he has a 30% chance of helping or 70% chance of blowing it and costing them any shot at victory. The only thing that is happening this season is that he's not hitting his gambles. This is the same Eli as always, just his horseshoe isn't giving him enough 30% wins this year. 

Plus, I think the Giants would have had at least just as much chance to win those Super Bowls, and any other game since Eli has been there, if they had Philip Rivers at QB. At least. Quite possibly they would have been better. 
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That's not even a question. Rivers with that defense would have made the Giants an excellent team, not a mediocre one. It's funny what NY traded away in retrospect.

Watching him waste away any chances his team had in the final minute last night reminded us all of how bad his decisions under pressure often are. 

 
This is the most revisionist of revisionist history. You can't make calls like this from 8 years ago when the dude is now 37 and has no O-line.

 
Watching that game and how horribly Eli played, it’s mind-boggling that he threw for 399 yards. I know there were some chunk plays, but again - just watching & not paying attention to the stats I’d have guessed half that.

 
Brady is more lucky than good.  Two words: Edleman Catch.

eta 2 more words: Tuck Rule.

 
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matuski said:
Very compelling argument against his body of work.

Do individual lucky plays erase the all time great accomplishments of any other QBs in your mind?
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Well hey, we all know Brady is crap. Tuck Rule...BTW pretty sure Hot Sauce was being sarcastic there.

 
matuski said:
Very compelling argument against his body of work.

Do individual lucky plays erase the all time great accomplishments of any other QBs in your mind?
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No, but we’re not talking about other QBs.

we’re talking about the luckiest & arguably least qualified HOF-er of all time, Eli “helmet catch” Manning.

most of the stats you listed are known as compiling stats.  I contend that if his name weren’t Manning, and if he hadn’t gotten lucky as hell with that helmet catch, he may not have been given the leeway to play as many seasons & compile those numbers.

your resume for him is “passing TD” and “passing TDs” which are both enabled by playing for a long time. Might as well just say “stayed healthy, named Manning.”

the helmet catch is partly responsible for every stat he put up afterwards. 

 
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The Frankman said:
Well hey, we all know Brady is crap. Tuck Rule...BTW pretty sure Hot Sauce was being sarcastic there.
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Partly. I think Eli is wildly overrated & that it’s taken an awful lot of luck for him to have put up the #s he has.

I’ve never been a fan, and his compiling stats don’t impress me much. 

And that helmet catch was absolutely a huge factor in building his resume. 

One could argue that two of his worst throws were responsible for both of his superbowl rings. ;)  

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
No, but we’re not talking about other QBs.

we’re talking about the luckiest & arguably least qualified HOF-we of all time, Eli “helmet catch” Manning.

most of the stats you listed are known as compiling stats.  I contend that if his name weren’t Manning, and if he hadn’t gotten lucky as hell with that helmet catch, he may not have been given the leeway to play as many seasons & compile those numbers.

your resume for him is “passing tarda@ and “passing TDs” which are both enabled by playing for a long time. Might as well just say “stayed healthy, named Manning.”

the helmet catch is partly responsible for every stat he put up afterwards. 
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I'm trying to wrap my head around your arguments here.

His stats don't count.

Super Bowls don't count.

Super Bowl MVPs don't count.

Do I have this right?

 
... yikes, did you have to lay it on THAT thick? I taste through my computer at work. Are you experimenting with cyber hot sauce you can send via the Cloud?

EDIT: matsuki please... cut the line before he reels you in all the way.

 
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Hot Sauce Guy said:
Nope. Not even close.

Try reading slower maybe.
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OK -  take me through this one line at a time, because re reading (slowly), you do indeed appear to be discounted his stats, his Super Bowls, his Super Bowl MVPs.

All time great stats do or do not count? 

Super Bowls do or do not count? 

Super Bowl MVPs do or do not count?

Where does luck fall in relation to these when you evaluate NFL careers?

 
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matuski said:
OK -  take me through this one line at a time, because re reading (slowly), you do indeed appear to be discounted his stats, his Super Bowls, his Super Bowl MVPs.

All time great stats do or do not count? 

Super Bowls do or do not count? 

Super Bowl MVPs do or do not count?

Where does luck fall in relation to these when you evaluate NFL careers?
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Tim Brown wasn’t a 1st ballot HOF, and many (including myself) feel he’s borderline.

because he was a compiler. 

Super Bowls are a byproduct of team production. Not an individual. Putting those super bowls on Eli alone is the same as blaming Eli for every single loss they’ve had while he was the QB.

missed FG to lose a game? Eli’s fault.

the “count the rings” argument to support a player’s greatness is foolish. The equipment guy for the 49ers dynasty has 5 rings. Was he the greatest equipment guy to ever work on football equipment?

And so you’ve summed up Eli’s greatness wit 2 compiling stats & two rings - both of which required ridiculously lucky catches to attain. 

Eli is a compiler who’s team helped him win 2 Super Bowls more than he helped his team win them. Fact. 

 
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So let's get back to 2018 fantasy discussion, and even the title of the article: Does anyone still believe? Does anyone see Eli benched at all over the next month? Would we consider Lauletta a possible sneaky QB grab in some cases? Dynasty? Redraft? 

With the weapons on this offense, any QB starting for them has some pretty intriguing value in dynasty IMO. Lauletta is currently a FA in my league. 

 
Dr. Dan said:
So let's get back to 2018 fantasy discussion, and even the title of the article: Does anyone still believe? Does anyone see Eli benched at all over the next month? Would we consider Lauletta a possible sneaky QB grab in some cases? Dynasty? Redraft? 

With the weapons on this offense, any QB starting for them has some pretty intriguing value in dynasty IMO. Lauletta is currently a FA in my league. 
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Seems unlikely that the Giants will sit Eli in the near future.  Eli is not a great QB but the O scheme and Oline are horrific.  Why put a young QB to an unwinnable situation? 

 
Believe that Eli can be elite? HELL NAW. Believe he could be a competent game manager? Sure. But it won't happen behind that line. I have hope for Spencer Pulley because a year ago he was a highly rated C according to PFF, but he needs time to adjust. Will Hernandez is good but he's still a rook. Solder and Greco are getting abused, Wheeler is a bit better that Flowers in that he's not a turnstile, and Omameh already got benched. 

 
Not hating or coming in this thread to beat a dead horse...but I can no longer watch the Giants play.  Eli is so, so painful to watch at this point.

Eli to Jax for Bortles. - who says no?

 
trader jake said:
Not hating or coming in this thread to beat a dead horse...but I can no longer watch the Giants play.  Eli is so, so painful to watch at this point.

Eli to Jax for Bortles. - who says no?
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ME. I will not have a QB on my team who passes like he's throwing Honeybaked Hams  :porked:

 
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