Enough with the Brady excuses (1 Viewer)

[Devine Intervention]

All I see from the Brady lovers is whining about how he has no talent around him and how if he had the talent Eli had it would be wayyy different. BS. So I decided to take a look into this.

For starters... his Offensive Line:

1st round - Mankins

1st round - Solder

2nd round - Vollmer

2nd round - Light

All pro - Waters

That helps a QB, best O-line in the league.

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch.

1st Welker - 773

4th Gronk - 656

9nth Hernandez - 519

40th Branch - 332

That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

So lets look at the talent Eli has, that Brady could do so much with.

1st round - Nicks. got me there

3rd round - Manningham

4th round - Jacobs

6th round - Poscoe

7th round - Bradshaw

undrafted - Ballard

undrafted - Cruz

undrafted - DJ Ware

Im not seeing this ELITE talent. OHH add the fact that Eli had the WORST run offense in the NFL. Wow, Brady has it so bad.

So then I thought lets look at since Eli came in the league, who has been drafted more talent around them.

NYG top round skill positions drafted since 2004:

1 - WR Nicks

2 - WR S.Smith ( who did great with Eli until injured )

2 - WR Moss

3 - WR Manningham ( who did great when S.Smith went down )

3 - TE Barden

3 - TE Beckum

3 - WR Jennigan

4 - RB Jacobs

NEP top round skill positions drafted since 2004:

1 - RB Maroney

2 - RB Vareen

2 - TE Gronk

2 - WR Jackson

3 - RB Ridley

3 - WR D.Thomas

3 - WR Price

3 - WR Tate

4 - TE Hernandez

Free Agents:

WR Branch

WR Ochocinco

I see alot of talent that went to waste in NEs offense.

I dont know when people are going to realize that that NE offense is ALL scheme! They plug players that fit into the scheme. They rely on a great O-line and wrs that get good YAC. Yes, it also relies on a smart QB with good understanding of the system. But its not that they dont get talent in there for Brady, its just that they dont fit into the scheme.

There is a reason that when Brady goes down, Cassel gets plugged in with success,

When Welker goes down, Edelman comes in with success.

Brady is good, Im not doubting that. But I think the Giants has shown his faults and BB is getting too tricky for his own good.

But all this, Brady does more with less is BULL and Pats fans just need to admit it.

 

[jurb26]

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch. 1st Welker - 7734th Gronk - 6569nth Hernandez - 51940th Branch - 332That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

I like your overall premise so I'm not going to really debate you other than this single point. I think this is just as much a product of Brady, his accuracy and mastery of the NE offense, as it is his receivers making YAC. NE runs a scheme designed to create YAC. They don't have a real down the field threat and haven't since Moss left. So to me, this is just as much a compliment to Brady as it is his pass catchers.

 

[Devine Intervention]

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch. 1st Welker - 7734th Gronk - 6569nth Hernandez - 51940th Branch - 332That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

I like your overall premise so I'm not going to really debate you other than this single point. I think this is just as much a product of Brady, his accuracy and mastery of the NE offense, as it is his receivers making YAC. NE runs a scheme designed to create YAC. They don't have a real down the field threat and haven't since Moss left. So to me, this is just as much a compliment to Brady as it is his pass catchers.

I agree. Alot of this comes from smart decisions and leading your wr. But alot of it comes from a great scheme from BB and athletic wrs making moves downfield. Your not getting so many YAC with scrubs.

 

[David Yudkin]

The people pointing to limited talent for Brady are referring to earlier years where the Pats were rolling out the likes of 80 year old Troy Brown, David Patten, Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, and otherwise nondescript receivers. I have not seen many people suggesting his current crop of targets is a poor collection of talent.

 

[Devine Intervention]

The people pointing to limited talent for Brady are referring to earlier years where the Pats were rolling out the likes of 80 year old Troy Brown, David Patten, Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, and otherwise nondescript receivers. I have not seen many people suggesting his current crop of targets is a poor collection of talent.

Even then, Faulk was a 3rd, Redman 3rd, Graham 1st, Branch 2nd, B.Johnson 2nd and A.Smith was a 1st round pick. And a really great year from Corey Dillon. But if you look through the threads and watched ESPN, there has been alot of excuses for Brady and his poor play, blaming it on the talent around him. I just think there needs to be more blame on Brady's shoulders, even by Brady. In the post game interview he talked as if it was Welker's fault and he always makes that catch and how he loves him and will always throw to him, but made no mention that maybe he could've thrown a better ball to him.

 

[golfguy]

All I see from the Brady lovers is whining about how he has no talent around him and how if he had the talent Eli had it would be wayyy different. BS. So I decided to take a look into this.For starters... his Offensive Line:1st round - Mankins1st round - Solder2nd round - Vollmer2nd round - LightAll pro - WatersThat helps a QB, best O-line in the league. Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch. 1st Welker - 7734th Gronk - 6569nth Hernandez - 51940th Branch - 332That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field. So lets look at the talent Eli has, that Brady could do so much with.1st round - Nicks. got me there3rd round - Manningham4th round - Jacobs6th round - Poscoe7th round - Bradshawundrafted - Ballardundrafted - Cruzundrafted - DJ WareIm not seeing this ELITE talent. OHH add the fact that Eli had the WORST run offense in the NFL. Wow, Brady has it so bad. So then I thought lets look at since Eli came in the league, who has been drafted more talent around them. NYG top round skill positions drafted since 2004:1 - WR Nicks2 - WR S.Smith ( who did great with Eli until injured )2 - WR Moss3 - WR Manningham ( who did great when S.Smith went down )3 - TE Barden3 - TE Beckum3 - WR Jennigan4 - RB Jacobs NEP top round skill positions drafted since 2004:1 - RB Maroney2 - RB Vareen2 - TE Gronk2 - WR Jackson3 - RB Ridley3 - WR D.Thomas3 - WR Price3 - WR Tate4 - TE Hernandez Free Agents: WR BranchWR OchocincoI see alot of talent that went to waste in NEs offense. I dont know when people are going to realize that that NE offense is ALL scheme! They plug players that fit into the scheme. They rely on a great O-line and wrs that get good YAC. Yes, it also relies on a smart QB with good understanding of the system. But its not that they dont get talent in there for Brady, its just that they dont fit into the scheme. There is a reason that when Brady goes down, Cassel gets plugged in with success,When Welker goes down, Edelman comes in with success. Brady is good, Im not doubting that. But I think the Giants has shown his faults and BB is getting too tricky for his own good. But all this, Brady does more with less is BULL and Pats fans just need to admit it.

 

[sho nuff]

The people pointing to limited talent for Brady are referring to earlier years where the Pats were rolling out the likes of 80 year old Troy Brown, David Patten, Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, and otherwise nondescript receivers. I have not seen many people suggesting his current crop of targets is a poor collection of talent.

Was it here in the Are the Pats Done thread that someone called that team average talent?

 

[bucsbaby]

There are lots of good FA WRs as indicated in the FA WR thread. I would love to see NE reload with a pair of those FA WRs, while retaining Welker, Gronk, and Hernandez. Then look out.

 

[cvnpoka]

brady has become manning. oh the irony.

 

[petenice15]

Looking at the list of NE players drafted just points out as great as BB is as a coach, he's just an average evaluater of talent.

 

[David Yudkin]

It should be obvious that where someone was drafted does not really mean a whole lot with regard to the talent level of the player.

Brady himself was a 6th round pick, so he would be a far below average QB using that standard. Again using draft position as a barometer, Welker, GreenEllis, and Woodhead must be awful players, as they all were undrafted. But players like Gaffney and Stallworth, both have whom have bounced around, would be considered superstars.

 

[Sabertooth]

Brady doesn't need to make excuses for anything. He's about as good a player to ever play this game. He's classy. He nails a super model. Come to think of it, he may have sold his soul. But that's between him and old scratch.

 

[Tanner9919]

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch.

1st Welker - 773

4th Gronk - 656

9nth Hernandez - 519

40th Branch - 332

That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

I like your overall premise so I'm not going to really debate you other than this single point. I think this is just as much a product of Brady, his accuracy and mastery of the NE offense, as it is his receivers making YAC. NE runs a scheme designed to create YAC. They don't have a real down the field threat and haven't since Moss left. So to me, this is just as much a compliment to Brady as it is his pass catchers.

interesting point brought up by Dilfer on ESPN's postgame show..in last two SBs, Brady and the Pats are 0-13 completing passing plays of 20+ yards..and that includes Moss in SB 42..now that might be 100% because of NE's coaching staff fearing the Giants pass rush and they chose to use short passes to neutralize Tuck & Co., but still, I found it a very interesting stat.and it's especially odd when you think of how many deep passing plays Brees dumped on NYG earlier in the season when the Saints blew the Giants doors off..

in critical times Brady failed to come through..missed a wide open Branch twice. threw behind some receivers.

Welker's miss was thrown behind him..threw a costly INT..

but no doubt about it, he was rattled by the Giants defense..so let's give credit where it is due.

Brady didn't lose the game,the Giants won it..

another thing about NE since their last SB victory is that they seem to have made a fundamental shift in philosophy, they've become a team that tries to hang 45 pts on every opponent, thus forcing opponents to change their game plan and become one-dimensional as they pass to play catch-up..

the problem is that the NE defense has gotten worse year after year..it's almost like BB has forgotten how to coach a defense and/or forgotten about defense come Draft Day...

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

 

[bucsbaby]

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

Like an AFC championship, for example?

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

Seems to me that the OP may be stuck on what round people were drafted more so than actual talent. It really isn't relevant. Talent is talent, it doesn't matter when people are drafted.

 

[kentric]

It should be obvious that where someone was drafted does not really mean a whole lot with regard to the talent level of the player.Brady himself was a 6th round pick, so he would be a far below average QB using that standard. Again using draft position as a barometer, Welker, GreenEllis, and Woodhead must be awful players, as they all were undrafted. But players like Gaffney and Stallworth, both have whom have bounced around, would be considered superstars.

Was going to same the same exact thing.

 

[Devine Intervention]

Seems to me that the OP may be stuck on what round people were drafted more so than actual talent. It really isn't relevant. Talent is talent, it doesn't matter when people are drafted.

Talent is talent, true. But are you saying that an average talent couldn't be made into a superstar based on the play of a QB or a scheme of a coach??The Buffalo Bills made decent skill players because of a good offensive scheme.There is a long list of nobodies that Indy has created because they have Manning. Matt Cassel was a NOBODY, late draft pick and NE made him look like one of the most talented QBs in the league. Scheme makes the player sometimes.

 

[Koya]

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

Like an AFC championship, for example?

It's an interesting point nonetheless. This is simply not the dynasty that it seemed destined to become. Competitive every year, as good a chance at a SB win as any over the next few years but clearly not the same juggernaut.

 

[Devine Intervention]

It should be obvious that where someone was drafted does not really mean a whole lot with regard to the talent level of the player.Brady himself was a 6th round pick, so he would be a far below average QB using that standard. Again using draft position as a barometer, Welker, GreenEllis, and Woodhead must be awful players, as they all were undrafted. But players like Gaffney and Stallworth, both have whom have bounced around, would be considered superstars.

Was going to same the same exact thing.

Green-Ellis and Woodhead are awful players, get real if you think anything other than that. GE is very dependable and doesn't fumble, I'll give him that. But put either of those guys behind a different line and in a different scheme and they are terrible! If Wes Welker is such a GREAT talent then why did Edelman come in and have success in the same ROLE as Welker?? Its all role play, and plugging in pieces in that offense.

 

[doowain]

It should be obvious that where someone was drafted does not really mean a whole lot with regard to the talent level of the player.Brady himself was a 6th round pick, so he would be a far below average QB using that standard. Again using draft position as a barometer, Welker, GreenEllis, and Woodhead must be awful players, as they all were undrafted. But players like Gaffney and Stallworth, both have whom have bounced around, would be considered superstars.

Was going to same the same exact thing.

Green-Ellis and Woodhead are awful players, get real if you think anything other than that. GE is very dependable and doesn't fumble, I'll give him that. But put either of those guys behind a different line and in a different scheme and they are terrible! If Wes Welker is such a GREAT talent then why did Edelman come in and have success in the same ROLE as Welker?? Its all role play, and plugging in pieces in that offense.

Oh dear Lord...

 

[Obie Wan]

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch.

1st Welker - 773

4th Gronk - 656

9nth Hernandez - 519

40th Branch - 332

That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

I like your overall premise so I'm not going to really debate you other than this single point. I think this is just as much a product of Brady, his accuracy and mastery of the NE offense, as it is his receivers making YAC. NE runs a scheme designed to create YAC. They don't have a real down the field threat and haven't since Moss left. So to me, this is just as much a compliment to Brady as it is his pass catchers.

interesting point brought up by Dilfer on ESPN's postgame show..in last two SBs, Brady and the Pats are 0-13 completing passing plays of 20+ yards..and that includes Moss in SB 42..now that might be 100% because of NE's coaching staff fearing the Giants pass rush and they chose to use short passes to neutralize Tuck & Co., but still, I found it a very interesting stat.and it's especially odd when you think of how many deep passing plays Brees dumped on NYG earlier in the season when the Saints blew the Giants doors off..

in critical times Brady failed to come through..missed a wide open Branch twice. threw behind some receivers.

Welker's miss was thrown behind him..threw a costly INT..

but no doubt about it, he was rattled by the Giants defense..so let's give credit where it is due.

Brady didn't lose the game,the Giants won it..

another thing about NE since their last SB victory is that they seem to have made a fundamental shift in philosophy, they've become a team that tries to hang 45 pts on every opponent, thus forcing opponents to change their game plan and become one-dimensional as they pass to play catch-up..

the problem is that the NE defense has gotten worse year after year..it's almost like BB has forgotten how to coach a defense and/or forgotten about defense come Draft Day...

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

more correctly, they have not been as dominant since they were caught cheatinga lot tougher on Brady when he does not know what the defense is doing each play

 

[bucsbaby]

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch.

1st Welker - 773

4th Gronk - 656

9nth Hernandez - 519

40th Branch - 332

That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

I like your overall premise so I'm not going to really debate you other than this single point. I think this is just as much a product of Brady, his accuracy and mastery of the NE offense, as it is his receivers making YAC. NE runs a scheme designed to create YAC. They don't have a real down the field threat and haven't since Moss left. So to me, this is just as much a compliment to Brady as it is his pass catchers.

interesting point brought up by Dilfer on ESPN's postgame show..in last two SBs, Brady and the Pats are 0-13 completing passing plays of 20+ yards..and that includes Moss in SB 42..now that might be 100% because of NE's coaching staff fearing the Giants pass rush and they chose to use short passes to neutralize Tuck & Co., but still, I found it a very interesting stat.and it's especially odd when you think of how many deep passing plays Brees dumped on NYG earlier in the season when the Saints blew the Giants doors off..

in critical times Brady failed to come through..missed a wide open Branch twice. threw behind some receivers.

Welker's miss was thrown behind him..threw a costly INT..

but no doubt about it, he was rattled by the Giants defense..so let's give credit where it is due.

Brady didn't lose the game,the Giants won it..

another thing about NE since their last SB victory is that they seem to have made a fundamental shift in philosophy, they've become a team that tries to hang 45 pts on every opponent, thus forcing opponents to change their game plan and become one-dimensional as they pass to play catch-up..

the problem is that the NE defense has gotten worse year after year..it's almost like BB has forgotten how to coach a defense and/or forgotten about defense come Draft Day...

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

more correctly, they have not been as dominant since they were caught cheatinga lot tougher on Brady when he does not know what the defense is doing each play

That may or may not be true, but I still think the critics are over-stating their case, given that NE came within less than a td of being superbowl champs this year. One of a few plays break differently in that game and the Brady discussion is likely totally different these last few days.It's a mark of their success imo that just because they are not going 19-0, including a 14+ pt win in the superbowl, that they are being talked about as regressing, not as dominant, on the decline, etc.

I'd be really happy if my team was competitive year in and year out with a legit shot of winning the superbowl each year and having the youth and draft picks ready to reload and go on another legit shot at the superbowl next year.

 

[Workhorse]

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch.

1st Welker - 773

4th Gronk - 656

9nth Hernandez - 519

40th Branch - 332

That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

I like your overall premise so I'm not going to really debate you other than this single point. I think this is just as much a product of Brady, his accuracy and mastery of the NE offense, as it is his receivers making YAC. NE runs a scheme designed to create YAC. They don't have a real down the field threat and haven't since Moss left. So to me, this is just as much a compliment to Brady as it is his pass catchers.

interesting point brought up by Dilfer on ESPN's postgame show..in last two SBs, Brady and the Pats are 0-13 completing passing plays of 20+ yards..and that includes Moss in SB 42..now that might be 100% because of NE's coaching staff fearing the Giants pass rush and they chose to use short passes to neutralize Tuck & Co., but still, I found it a very interesting stat.and it's especially odd when you think of how many deep passing plays Brees dumped on NYG earlier in the season when the Saints blew the Giants doors off..

in critical times Brady failed to come through..missed a wide open Branch twice. threw behind some receivers.

Welker's miss was thrown behind him..threw a costly INT..

but no doubt about it, he was rattled by the Giants defense..so let's give credit where it is due.

Brady didn't lose the game,the Giants won it..

another thing about NE since their last SB victory is that they seem to have made a fundamental shift in philosophy, they've become a team that tries to hang 45 pts on every opponent, thus forcing opponents to change their game plan and become one-dimensional as they pass to play catch-up..

the problem is that the NE defense has gotten worse year after year..it's almost like BB has forgotten how to coach a defense and/or forgotten about defense come Draft Day...

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

more correctly, they have not been as dominant since they were caught cheatinga lot tougher on Brady when he does not know what the defense is doing each play

Take a look at Brady's stats pre (2000-2006) and post Spygate (2007-2011) and get back to me.

 

[Devine Intervention]

It should be obvious that where someone was drafted does not really mean a whole lot with regard to the talent level of the player.Brady himself was a 6th round pick, so he would be a far below average QB using that standard. Again using draft position as a barometer, Welker, GreenEllis, and Woodhead must be awful players, as they all were undrafted. But players like Gaffney and Stallworth, both have whom have bounced around, would be considered superstars.

Was going to same the same exact thing.

Green-Ellis and Woodhead are awful players, get real if you think anything other than that. GE is very dependable and doesn't fumble, I'll give him that. But put either of those guys behind a different line and in a different scheme and they are terrible! If Wes Welker is such a GREAT talent then why did Edelman come in and have success in the same ROLE as Welker?? Its all role play, and plugging in pieces in that offense.

Oh dear Lord...

Come on, are you really gonna say that on a different team that they even see the field?? Name one starting RB you would put them ahead of?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

It should be obvious that where someone was drafted does not really mean a whole lot with regard to the talent level of the player.Brady himself was a 6th round pick, so he would be a far below average QB using that standard. Again using draft position as a barometer, Welker, GreenEllis, and Woodhead must be awful players, as they all were undrafted. But players like Gaffney and Stallworth, both have whom have bounced around, would be considered superstars.

Was going to same the same exact thing.

Green-Ellis and Woodhead are awful players, get real if you think anything other than that. GE is very dependable and doesn't fumble, I'll give him that. But put either of those guys behind a different line and in a different scheme and they are terrible! If Wes Welker is such a GREAT talent then why did Edelman come in and have success in the same ROLE as Welker?? Its all role play, and plugging in pieces in that offense.

Oh dear Lord...

Come on, are you really gonna say that on a different team that they even see the field?? Name one starting RB you would put them ahead of?

Jahvid Best.Cedric Benson.Joseph Addai.James StarksRoy Helu (push)Shonne Green (push)

 

[qimqam]

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch.

1st Welker - 773

4th Gronk - 656

9nth Hernandez - 519

40th Branch - 332

That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

I like your overall premise so I'm not going to really debate you other than this single point. I think this is just as much a product of Brady, his accuracy and mastery of the NE offense, as it is his receivers making YAC. NE runs a scheme designed to create YAC. They don't have a real down the field threat and haven't since Moss left. So to me, this is just as much a compliment to Brady as it is his pass catchers.

The only time Brady was ever good at throwing down field was when he had Moss and that was Moss making Brady look good.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch.

1st Welker - 773

4th Gronk - 656

9nth Hernandez - 519

40th Branch - 332

That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

I like your overall premise so I'm not going to really debate you other than this single point. I think this is just as much a product of Brady, his accuracy and mastery of the NE offense, as it is his receivers making YAC. NE runs a scheme designed to create YAC. They don't have a real down the field threat and haven't since Moss left. So to me, this is just as much a compliment to Brady as it is his pass catchers.

The only time Brady was ever good at throwing down field was when he had Moss and that was Moss making Brady look good.

Lots of truth in this post. Brady's deep ball is average at best, its simply not his strong suit.

 

[the moops]

more correctly, they have not been as dominant since they were caught cheatinga lot tougher on Brady when he does not know what the defense is doing each play

Take a look at Brady's stats pre (2000-2006) and post Spygate (2007-2011) and get back to me.

Probably can take a look at the Patriots record too

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch.

1st Welker - 773

4th Gronk - 656

9nth Hernandez - 519

40th Branch - 332

That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

I like your overall premise so I'm not going to really debate you other than this single point. I think this is just as much a product of Brady, his accuracy and mastery of the NE offense, as it is his receivers making YAC. NE runs a scheme designed to create YAC. They don't have a real down the field threat and haven't since Moss left. So to me, this is just as much a compliment to Brady as it is his pass catchers.

interesting point brought up by Dilfer on ESPN's postgame show..in last two SBs, Brady and the Pats are 0-13 completing passing plays of 20+ yards..and that includes Moss in SB 42..now that might be 100% because of NE's coaching staff fearing the Giants pass rush and they chose to use short passes to neutralize Tuck & Co., but still, I found it a very interesting stat.and it's especially odd when you think of how many deep passing plays Brees dumped on NYG earlier in the season when the Saints blew the Giants doors off..

in critical times Brady failed to come through..missed a wide open Branch twice. threw behind some receivers.

Welker's miss was thrown behind him..threw a costly INT..

but no doubt about it, he was rattled by the Giants defense..so let's give credit where it is due.

Brady didn't lose the game,the Giants won it..

another thing about NE since their last SB victory is that they seem to have made a fundamental shift in philosophy, they've become a team that tries to hang 45 pts on every opponent, thus forcing opponents to change their game plan and become one-dimensional as they pass to play catch-up..

the problem is that the NE defense has gotten worse year after year..it's almost like BB has forgotten how to coach a defense and/or forgotten about defense come Draft Day...

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

more correctly, they have not been as dominant since they were caught cheatinga lot tougher on Brady when he does not know what the defense is doing each play

Take a look at Brady's stats pre (2000-2006) and post Spygate (2007-2011) and get back to me.

Yeah, they actually had to start working/producing to win a game, what a novel concept.

 

[Boston]

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch.

1st Welker - 773

4th Gronk - 656

9nth Hernandez - 519

40th Branch - 332

That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

I like your overall premise so I'm not going to really debate you other than this single point. I think this is just as much a product of Brady, his accuracy and mastery of the NE offense, as it is his receivers making YAC. NE runs a scheme designed to create YAC. They don't have a real down the field threat and haven't since Moss left. So to me, this is just as much a compliment to Brady as it is his pass catchers.

The only time Brady was ever good at throwing down field was when he had Moss and that was Moss making Brady look good.

That's been the only real deep threat he's had since he'd been the QB unless you count Bethel Johnson and Donte Stallworth...the guy just threw 39 and 36 TD passes the last two years and won the MVP last year without Moss...obviously he's going to put up better #'s playing with a H-o-F WR...who wouldn't?

 

[David Yudkin]

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

I think this is oversimplified. You can say the same thing that NE hasn't won anything without Pioli and Dimitroff.But the real reason the Pats haven't won anything lately is they don't have a defense filled with the likes of Seymour, Law, Samuel, Bruschi, McGinnest, Vrabel, Milloy, Harrison, Seau, etc.

For those astute enough to notice, the Pats defense went from lows of 237 points and 4613 yards allowed to this year giving up 342 points and 6577 yards. That's a difference of 105 points and 1964 yards.

People can say that Brady is the cause of them not winning, but echoing Giselle, he can't play defense.

Since their last SB victory, it's not like the Pats have been deplorable. They've advanced to 2 Super Bowls and an AFC Championship. That ties them with the Steelers in terms of conference championship games in that time.

Put another way, how many other franchises would cut off their right arms to have been in 3 championship games in that time?

 

[Boston]

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

I think this is oversimplified. You can say the same thing that NE hasn't won anything without Pioli and Dimitroff.But the real reason the Pats haven't won anything lately is they don't have a defense filled with the likes of Seymour, Law, Samuel, Bruschi, McGinnest, Vrabel, Milloy, Harrison, Seau, etc.

People can say that Brady is the cause of them not winning, but echoing Giselle, he can't play defense.

Since their last SB victory, it's not like the Pats have been deplorable. They've advanced to 2 Super Bowls and an AFC Championship. That ties them with the Steelers in terms of conference championship games in that time.

Put another way, how many other franchises would cut off their right arms to have been in 3 championship games in that time?

Exactly...it seems some non-Patriot fans just don't understand how many big-time players were on that D...many of them were playmakers as well which they are totally devoid of now...what exactly could Crennel do to make that D any better...play Edelman at MLB...the curve the Pats are being graded on is getting a little silly...they were a play from winning the AFC in 06 (and probably beating the Bears) and winning a Super Bowl in 07 and 11..they were a #1 seed in 07, 10 and 11...they have not been an 8-8 team for the past five years...they are a top-tier team that due to poor personel decisions have not put a complete enough team together to get over the hump...that is not an excuse but reality...personally I am not overly happy with how they are currently built and how imbalanced they are and I totally believe that until they get a legit pass-rush and some defensive play-makers they are not going to win another title...

 

[Chairshot]

I don't like Tom Brady at all. But the dude is a stone cold killer. He's got the stats to prove it, he has the rings to prove it.

He isn't perfect (the point about his deep ball is fair) but he is very, very good and his coach has built a perfect system around him. I think that's a point the "he's a system QB" people fail to realize. Any half way decent coach is going to create a system for any QB that he has that will favor his talents. Yes, Brady is a system QB. But he didn't just luck into the perfect system for his skills. He has great talent and his coach is smart enough to customize the offense to use those talents. Virtually every player on every team is a "system" player, or at least he should be if the head coach and GM have any idea what they are doing.

I was not happy seeing Brady with the ball at the end of the Superbowl. I was very worried. I wasn't worried about the talent around him, which is average, I was worried about Brady himself. I think most Giants fans were in the same boat. That speaks pretty clearly to his talent vs the talent he had around him in that game.

 

[bucsbaby]

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

I think this is oversimplified. You can say the same thing that NE hasn't won anything without Pioli and Dimitroff.But the real reason the Pats haven't won anything lately is they don't have a defense filled with the likes of Seymour, Law, Samuel, Bruschi, McGinnest, Vrabel, Milloy, Harrison, Seau, etc.

For those astute enough to notice, the Pats defense went from lows of 237 points and 4613 yards allowed to this year giving up 342 points and 6577 yards. That's a difference of 105 points and 1964 yards.

People can say that Brady is the cause of them not winning, but echoing Giselle, he can't play defense.

Since their last SB victory, it's not like the Pats have been deplorable. They've advanced to 2 Super Bowls and an AFC Championship. That ties them with the Steelers in terms of conference championship games in that time.

Put another way, how many other franchises would cut off their right arms to have been in 3 championship games in that time?

Very

 

[David Yudkin]

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

I think this is oversimplified. You can say the same thing that NE hasn't won anything without Pioli and Dimitroff.But the real reason the Pats haven't won anything lately is they don't have a defense filled with the likes of Seymour, Law, Samuel, Bruschi, McGinnest, Vrabel, Milloy, Harrison, Seau, etc.

People can say that Brady is the cause of them not winning, but echoing Giselle, he can't play defense.

Since their last SB victory, it's not like the Pats have been deplorable. They've advanced to 2 Super Bowls and an AFC Championship. That ties them with the Steelers in terms of conference championship games in that time.

Put another way, how many other franchises would cut off their right arms to have been in 3 championship games in that time?

Exactly...it seems some non-Patriot fans just don't understand how many big-time players were on that D...many of them were playmakers as well which they are totally devoid of now...what exactly could Crennel do to make that D any better...play Edelman at MLB...the curve the Pats are being graded on is getting a little silly...they were a play from winning the AFC in 06 (and probably beating the Bears) and winning a Super Bowl in 07 and 11..they were a #1 seed in 07, 10 and 11...they have not been an 8-8 team for the past five years...they are a top-tier team that due to poor personel decisions have not put a complete enough team together to get over the hump...that is not an excuse but reality...personally I am not overly happy with how they are currently built and how imbalanced they are and I totally believe that until they get a legit pass-rush and some defensive play-makers they are not going to win another title...

To extend this further, the Pats have still been the team to beat in the regular season since "their last title." Granted, having a good regular season record ultimately doesn't mean much, but they have won the most games by a decent amount in 2005-2011, even with no rings to show for it.NE 86

IND 77

PIT 74

SD 72

BAL 68

NYG 68

GB 67

CHI 66

DAL 65

NO 65

PHI 62.5

ATL 61

TEN 58

DEN 57

JAX 56

NYJ 55

SEA 55

CAR 54

MIN 54

CIN 53.5

ARI 50

SF 50

TB 50

HOU 49

MIA 47

WAS 47

KC 46

BUF 42

CLE 38

OAK 36

DET 33

STL 29

 

[bucsbaby]

Secondly, these scrubs that he has as weapons led the league in YAC! So what that says is that AFTER Brady gets them the ball, THEY got the most yards after the catch.

1st Welker - 773

4th Gronk - 656

9nth Hernandez - 519

40th Branch - 332

That helps a QB too. Especially one who struggles completing balls down the field.

I like your overall premise so I'm not going to really debate you other than this single point. I think this is just as much a product of Brady, his accuracy and mastery of the NE offense, as it is his receivers making YAC. NE runs a scheme designed to create YAC. They don't have a real down the field threat and haven't since Moss left. So to me, this is just as much a compliment to Brady as it is his pass catchers.

interesting point brought up by Dilfer on ESPN's postgame show..in last two SBs, Brady and the Pats are 0-13 completing passing plays of 20+ yards..and that includes Moss in SB 42..now that might be 100% because of NE's coaching staff fearing the Giants pass rush and they chose to use short passes to neutralize Tuck & Co., but still, I found it a very interesting stat.and it's especially odd when you think of how many deep passing plays Brees dumped on NYG earlier in the season when the Saints blew the Giants doors off..

in critical times Brady failed to come through..missed a wide open Branch twice. threw behind some receivers.

Welker's miss was thrown behind him..threw a costly INT..

but no doubt about it, he was rattled by the Giants defense..so let's give credit where it is due.

Brady didn't lose the game,the Giants won it..

another thing about NE since their last SB victory is that they seem to have made a fundamental shift in philosophy, they've become a team that tries to hang 45 pts on every opponent, thus forcing opponents to change their game plan and become one-dimensional as they pass to play catch-up..

the problem is that the NE defense has gotten worse year after year..it's almost like BB has forgotten how to coach a defense and/or forgotten about defense come Draft Day...

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

more correctly, they have not been as dominant since they were caught cheatinga lot tougher on Brady when he does not know what the defense is doing each play

Take a look at Brady's stats pre (2000-2006) and post Spygate (2007-2011) and get back to me.

Yeah, they actually had to start working/producing to win a game, what a novel concept.

Is there a :bad posting: emoticon?

 

[Devine Intervention]

It should be obvious that where someone was drafted does not really mean a whole lot with regard to the talent level of the player.

Brady himself was a 6th round pick, so he would be a far below average QB using that standard. Again using draft position as a barometer, Welker, GreenEllis, and Woodhead must be awful players, as they all were undrafted. But players like Gaffney and Stallworth, both have whom have bounced around, would be considered superstars.

Was going to same the same exact thing.

Green-Ellis and Woodhead are awful players, get real if you think anything other than that. GE is very dependable and doesn't fumble, I'll give him that. But put either of those guys behind a different line and in a different scheme and they are terrible! If Wes Welker is such a GREAT talent then why did Edelman come in and have success in the same ROLE as Welker?? Its all role play, and plugging in pieces in that offense.

Oh dear Lord...

Come on, are you really gonna say that on a different team that they even see the field?? Name one starting RB you would put them ahead of?

Jahvid Best. NO WAYCedric Benson. Not in his prime, and still no.

Joseph Addai. Maybe, because of injury only.

James Starks Eh, same style really, neither of them thrill me.

Roy Helu (push)

Shonne Green (push)

Silly

 

[Devine Intervention]

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

I think this is oversimplified. You can say the same thing that NE hasn't won anything without Pioli and Dimitroff.But the real reason the Pats haven't won anything lately is they don't have a defense filled with the likes of Seymour, Law, Samuel, Bruschi, McGinnest, Vrabel, Milloy, Harrison, Seau, etc.

For those astute enough to notice, the Pats defense went from lows of 237 points and 4613 yards allowed to this year giving up 342 points and 6577 yards. That's a difference of 105 points and 1964 yards.

People can say that Brady is the cause of them not winning, but echoing Giselle, he can't play defense.

Since their last SB victory, it's not like the Pats have been deplorable. They've advanced to 2 Super Bowls and an AFC Championship. That ties them with the Steelers in terms of conference championship games in that time.

Put another way, how many other franchises would cut off their right arms to have been in 3 championship games in that time?

First off, if this is the case, well then lets stop giving Brady ALL the credit for his SB wins and start saying what it really is. His defense was the one winning championships. Hence, why they have none since they lost all their talent. And you act like they haven't added talented players. Either BB is the worst drafter EVER or things arent that bad. I dont think it is necessary to add who they drafted on defense. The reason they looked so bad on defense is because the offense is just pumping away and putting a lot of pressure on the D. Same situation as GB and NO.

Look back at how the D played this postseason and ask was it Brady that got them there or the D? Yes in the Denver game Brady was lights out, and so was the D. In the Balt game the D was good and Brady was below average. And in the SB, the D played well, but Brady couldn't do enough. Only giving up 19 points to Manning and that offense that was on fire is great.

So say what you want for the past years, but come playoff time and SB, its been Brady who hasn't showed up.

Dont forget the last NYGs SB, the D only allowing 17.

First its his offensive weapons, then its his defense. Never Brady.

 

[David Yudkin]

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

I think this is oversimplified. You can say the same thing that NE hasn't won anything without Pioli and Dimitroff.But the real reason the Pats haven't won anything lately is they don't have a defense filled with the likes of Seymour, Law, Samuel, Bruschi, McGinnest, Vrabel, Milloy, Harrison, Seau, etc.

For those astute enough to notice, the Pats defense went from lows of 237 points and 4613 yards allowed to this year giving up 342 points and 6577 yards. That's a difference of 105 points and 1964 yards.

People can say that Brady is the cause of them not winning, but echoing Giselle, he can't play defense.

Since their last SB victory, it's not like the Pats have been deplorable. They've advanced to 2 Super Bowls and an AFC Championship. That ties them with the Steelers in terms of conference championship games in that time.

Put another way, how many other franchises would cut off their right arms to have been in 3 championship games in that time?

First off, if this is the case, well then lets stop giving Brady ALL the credit for his SB wins and start saying what it really is. His defense was the one winning championships. Hence, why they have none since they lost all their talent. And you act like they haven't added talented players. Either BB is the worst drafter EVER or things arent that bad. I dont think it is necessary to add who they drafted on defense. The reason they looked so bad on defense is because the offense is just pumping away and putting a lot of pressure on the D. Same situation as GB and NO.

Look back at how the D played this postseason and ask was it Brady that got them there or the D? Yes in the Denver game Brady was lights out, and so was the D. In the Balt game the D was good and Brady was below average. And in the SB, the D played well, but Brady couldn't do enough. Only giving up 19 points to Manning and that offense that was on fire is great.

So say what you want for the past years, but come playoff time and SB, its been Brady who hasn't showed up.

Dont forget the last NYGs SB, the D only allowing 17.

First its his offensive weapons, then its his defense. Never Brady.

In case you have noticed, I am not the one suggesting Brady is the GOAT. I have been leading the charge that Brady was a puzzle piece in their title years and the most important puzzle piece in recent years. IMO, the talent level on offense has increased incrementally in the past 5 years compared to Brady's first 5 years . . . but the defense has gotten far worse. A constant exodus of front office and team assistant coaches and coordinators hasn't helped any.I have been leading the charge in recent years that their drafting and player evaluation of college kids has been sporadic at best. I don't fault them for trading down. I fault them for making poor decisions/picks on defense much of the time.

And I will be the first to suggest that Brady in the post season has been a shell of his regular season self. I would say he has been excellent in the regular season and abover average to good in most playoff games. That may be due to him getting banged up as the season progresses, but his numbers most postseasons have tapered off.

I also have been leading the charge that the Pats defense has stepped it up in the post season while Brady has gotten worse. THEIR OFFENSE has cost them more titles . . . not the defense. Much of that is do to run of the mill playcalling, a lack of a running game when they needed to run the ball, and overall getting too conservative. Brady does not usually have another gear to reach back for by the end of the year. The Pats have become too reliant on Brady to win, and that most years won't be enough to win a SB. Both SBs with the Giants COULD have been victories, but things / bounces / calls didn't work out that way and they did not score anywhere near as many points as they usually did. But their defense was not the issue in those games . . . the offense was.

 

[parrot]

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

I think this is oversimplified. You can say the same thing that NE hasn't won anything without Pioli and Dimitroff.But the real reason the Pats haven't won anything lately is they don't have a defense filled with the likes of Seymour, Law, Samuel, Bruschi, McGinnest, Vrabel, Milloy, Harrison, Seau, etc.

For those astute enough to notice, the Pats defense went from lows of 237 points and 4613 yards allowed to this year giving up 342 points and 6577 yards. That's a difference of 105 points and 1964 yards.

People can say that Brady is the cause of them not winning, but echoing Giselle, he can't play defense.

Since their last SB victory, it's not like the Pats have been deplorable. They've advanced to 2 Super Bowls and an AFC Championship. That ties them with the Steelers in terms of conference championship games in that time.

Put another way, how many other franchises would cut off their right arms to have been in 3 championship games in that time?

First off, if this is the case, well then lets stop giving Brady ALL the credit for his SB wins and start saying what it really is. His defense was the one winning championships. Hence, why they have none since they lost all their talent. And you act like they haven't added talented players. Either BB is the worst drafter EVER or things arent that bad. I dont think it is necessary to add who they drafted on defense. The reason they looked so bad on defense is because the offense is just pumping away and putting a lot of pressure on the D. Same situation as GB and NO.

Look back at how the D played this postseason and ask was it Brady that got them there or the D? Yes in the Denver game Brady was lights out, and so was the D. In the Balt game the D was good and Brady was below average. And in the SB, the D played well, but Brady couldn't do enough. Only giving up 19 points to Manning and that offense that was on fire is great.

So say what you want for the past years, but come playoff time and SB, its been Brady who hasn't showed up.

Dont forget the last NYGs SB, the D only allowing 17.

First its his offensive weapons, then its his defense. Never Brady.

Why not just speak the truth, that they won them, and lost them, as a team? Maybe the offense wasn't that great in either game against the Giants, but in both games the defense gave up 80+ yard drives late in the game to surrender a lead. That ain't on Brady.

 

[David Yudkin]

Why not just speak the truth, that they won them, and lost them, as a team? Maybe the offense wasn't that great in either game against the Giants, but in both games the defense gave up 80+ yard drives late in the game to surrender a lead. That ain't on Brady.

The Pats scored 0 points in the game's final 26:20. Is that a Brady issue? A coaching issue? A playcalling issue? If the Pats scored in any of their last 4 drives, the game and the outcome could have been vastly different.

 

[Devine Intervention]

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

I think this is oversimplified. You can say the same thing that NE hasn't won anything without Pioli and Dimitroff.But the real reason the Pats haven't won anything lately is they don't have a defense filled with the likes of Seymour, Law, Samuel, Bruschi, McGinnest, Vrabel, Milloy, Harrison, Seau, etc.

For those astute enough to notice, the Pats defense went from lows of 237 points and 4613 yards allowed to this year giving up 342 points and 6577 yards. That's a difference of 105 points and 1964 yards.

People can say that Brady is the cause of them not winning, but echoing Giselle, he can't play defense.

Since their last SB victory, it's not like the Pats have been deplorable. They've advanced to 2 Super Bowls and an AFC Championship. That ties them with the Steelers in terms of conference championship games in that time.

Put another way, how many other franchises would cut off their right arms to have been in 3 championship games in that time?

First off, if this is the case, well then lets stop giving Brady ALL the credit for his SB wins and start saying what it really is. His defense was the one winning championships. Hence, why they have none since they lost all their talent. And you act like they haven't added talented players. Either BB is the worst drafter EVER or things arent that bad. I dont think it is necessary to add who they drafted on defense. The reason they looked so bad on defense is because the offense is just pumping away and putting a lot of pressure on the D. Same situation as GB and NO.

Look back at how the D played this postseason and ask was it Brady that got them there or the D? Yes in the Denver game Brady was lights out, and so was the D. In the Balt game the D was good and Brady was below average. And in the SB, the D played well, but Brady couldn't do enough. Only giving up 19 points to Manning and that offense that was on fire is great.

So say what you want for the past years, but come playoff time and SB, its been Brady who hasn't showed up.

Dont forget the last NYGs SB, the D only allowing 17.

First its his offensive weapons, then its his defense. Never Brady.

In case you have noticed, I am not the one suggesting Brady is the GOAT. I have been leading the charge that Brady was a puzzle piece in their title years and the most important puzzle piece in recent years. IMO, the talent level on offense has increased incrementally in the past 5 years compared to Brady's first 5 years . . . but the defense has gotten far worse. A constant exodus of front office and team assistant coaches and coordinators hasn't helped any.I have been leading the charge in recent years that their drafting and player evaluation of college kids has been sporadic at best. I don't fault them for trading down. I fault them for making poor decisions/picks on defense much of the time.

And I will be the first to suggest that Brady in the post season has been a shell of his regular season self. I would say he has been excellent in the regular season and abover average to good in most playoff games. That may be due to him getting banged up as the season progresses, but his numbers most postseasons have tapered off.

I also have been leading the charge that the Pats defense has stepped it up in the post season while Brady has gotten worse. THEIR OFFENSE has cost them more titles . . . not the defense. Much of that is do to run of the mill playcalling, a lack of a running game when they needed to run the ball, and overall getting too conservative. Brady does not usually have another gear to reach back for by the end of the year. The Pats have become too reliant on Brady to win, and that most years won't be enough to win a SB. Both SBs with the Giants COULD have been victories, but things / bounces / calls didn't work out that way and they did not score anywhere near as many points as they usually did. But their defense was not the issue in those games . . . the offesne was.

Very well put. I think like most teams, when you rely too heavily on one player, it can get you by in the regular season, but its rare to get you through the playoffs. Look at P.Manning. They lean on him way too much, has great seasons but its not enough in the playoffs. It was until the defense stepped up that they won a SB.

That is why my view is that it was the balance and scheme of NE that made them so great. When they needed Brady to carry them he couldn't get them all the way.

Its not so much of a Brady hate, but too much credit is given to the QB when its not deserved and not enough blame. They won the first SB will a great D and average QB play and Brady gets the credit for the win, but the same situation happens in a loss and no blame is on Brady.

 

[David Yudkin]

Very well put. I think like most teams, when you rely too heavily on one player, it can get you by in the regular season, but its rare to get you through the playoffs. Look at P.Manning. They lean on him way too much, has great seasons but its not enough in the playoffs. It was until the defense stepped up that they won a SB. That is why my view is that it was the balance and scheme of NE that made them so great. When they needed Brady to carry them he couldn't get them all the way. Its not so much of a Brady hate, but too much credit is given to the QB when its not deserved and not enough blame. They won the first SB will a great D and average QB play and Brady gets the credit for the win, but the same situation happens in a loss and no blame is on Brady.

Football. more than any other sport, is a team game. Yet the QBs get the credit for most wins and get accused of choking when their team loses. That's the way it goes, I'm afraid.IMO, the Pats were a far better TEAM in the 01-04 timeframe than they are now. Their defense was at or near the top of the league both in terms of talent and statistics. I've watched all the Pats games and just finished watching the Super Bowl . . . and even I would struggle to name the defensive starters from the Super Bowl. Their defense on Sunday played well enough to win, but the Pats didn't win.Oddly enough, even with that hodge podge collection of defensive "talent," they were a play or two for pulling it out. That's where, IMO, Brady has done more in the past 5 years he played than in the first 5 years he played. But the scorecard will show 3 titles in the early days and 0 titles once he became a true superstar.Give the Pats the defensive talent pool they had in the early 00s combined with their current offense and they would win most games by 17 points. That can't happen between the salary cap, free agency, player movement, etc., but that's more likely than not a true statement.Give someone like Ben Roelisberger the current Pats defense and I doubt the Steelers would be winning many Super Bowls. That's not necessarily a knock on Big Ben . . . but he would have to put up a lot of points to make up for the deficiencies on defense.

 

[parrot]

Why not just speak the truth, that they won them, and lost them, as a team? Maybe the offense wasn't that great in either game against the Giants, but in both games the defense gave up 80+ yard drives late in the game to surrender a lead. That ain't on Brady.

The Pats scored 0 points in the game's final 26:20. Is that a Brady issue? A coaching issue? A playcalling issue? If the Pats scored in any of their last 4 drives, the game and the outcome could have been vastly different.

It was all of those things. I'm not absolving Brady, or the offense. But they were still in a position to win the game until late in the game, and the defense couldn't get a stop. You can't just ignore that and lay it all at Brady's feet. Like I said, they lost it as a team. Both sides of the ball got outplayed when it mattered most.

 

[IrishTwinkie]

Football. more than any other sport, is a team game. Yet the QBs get the credit for most wins and get accused of choking when their team loses. That's the way it goes, I'm afraid.

I agree with most of the last few replies, but I have to tell ya, I am not hearing Brady get much of the blame for this loss. As a Giants living in the heart of Patriots land I've had to listen to how great Brady was in the first Superbowl. Never mind that 145 yards passing is a pretty weak way to earn MVP honors. It was all about how great Brady was and little credit given to the D which I felt really carried them to that win. If that is the standard, then Brady should be wearing the goat horns for this most recent performance. From what I've heard he hasn't been wearing them. Welker has been given them instead. Next in line has been Branch, Hernandez and the D. It seems like (some) Brady fans want to have it both ways.

 

[Devine Intervention]

Football. more than any other sport, is a team game. Yet the QBs get the credit for most wins and get accused of choking when their team loses. That's the way it goes, I'm afraid.

I agree with most of the last few replies, but I have to tell ya, I am not hearing Brady get much of the blame for this loss. As a Giants living in the heart of Patriots land I've had to listen to how great Brady was in the first Superbowl. Never mind that 145 yards passing is a pretty weak way to earn MVP honors. It was all about how great Brady was and little credit given to the D which I felt really carried them to that win. If that is the standard, then Brady should be wearing the goat horns for this most recent performance. From what I've heard he hasn't been wearing them. Welker has been given them instead. Next in line has been Branch, Hernandez and the D. It seems like (some) Brady fans want to have it both ways.

The worst is the abuse Welker gets over this, and Brady just let him take it. Welker has put himself out there, doing whatever it takes, and playing through and beyond his own short comings. Its disturbing that he is the one taking the heat. His catch would not have sealed the deal, or promised any chance of a win for sure. It was a very tough catch, one that not many people his size even adjusts to put their hands on that ball. You could VERY EASILY say Brady's dumb safety or his dumb INT, or his inability outside of that pass, to lead his team down the field to put the game away was the cause of the loss. I dont see how Welker is even close to being the goat, but he takes it and puts it on his shoulders. I have some serious respect for him after that. He didnt call out Brady, (nor did anyone related or in relations to him) he didnt complain about the throw or the defense not making a stop, and he didnt go dancing away the pain. He took it and is probably going to come back even harder next year.

 

[David Yudkin]

Football. more than any other sport, is a team game. Yet the QBs get the credit for most wins and get accused of choking when their team loses. That's the way it goes, I'm afraid.

I agree with most of the last few replies, but I have to tell ya, I am not hearing Brady get much of the blame for this loss. As a Giants living in the heart of Patriots land I've had to listen to how great Brady was in the first Superbowl. Never mind that 145 yards passing is a pretty weak way to earn MVP honors. It was all about how great Brady was and little credit given to the D which I felt really carried them to that win. If that is the standard, then Brady should be wearing the goat horns for this most recent performance. From what I've heard he hasn't been wearing them. Welker has been given them instead. Next in line has been Branch, Hernandez and the D. It seems like (some) Brady fans want to have it both ways.

Brady winning the SB MVP the first time around was a bit much . . . but they didn't have a single, clear stand out performer. That award often goes to the winning QB. I would not be afraid to call out Brady for his play in the second half of the most recent SB. He wasn't sharp, he heard footsteps, and otherwise was not in a great rhythmn. NE played well enough to win . . . if they just got one more stop, one more completion, one less penalty, one more turnover, one more break, etc. I don't think we can point to Brady's perfromance and say AH HA! THAT'S why the Patriots lost. He was far from putrid like he was when NE lost at home to the Ravens in 2009 (a turnover filled craptacular from Brady).Bottom line for me in the recent SB . . . Brady's heave downfield didn't travel far enough and got picked off. Manning's heave downfield fell between two defenders and resulted in a miracle catch, and each play changed the game. I would proffer that both of those passes were more luck based than skill based. If Brady's pass hits Gronkowski for a completion, the Pats most likely win the game. If Manning's pass were in a slightly different spot and got picked off, the Pats definitely win. If Eli's pass falls incomplete, that one is hard to flesh out without a lot of guesswork.On a basic, fundamental level, Brady played well enough to put his team in position to win. If the Pats stopped the Giants on their final drive in both Super Bowls, we would not be talking about how poorly Brady played and instead would by discussing how he was the only 5 time SB champion QB. But that's not what happened . . .

 

[parrot]

Football. more than any other sport, is a team game. Yet the QBs get the credit for most wins and get accused of choking when their team loses. That's the way it goes, I'm afraid.

I agree with most of the last few replies, but I have to tell ya, I am not hearing Brady get much of the blame for this loss. As a Giants living in the heart of Patriots land I've had to listen to how great Brady was in the first Superbowl. Never mind that 145 yards passing is a pretty weak way to earn MVP honors. It was all about how great Brady was and little credit given to the D which I felt really carried them to that win. If that is the standard, then Brady should be wearing the goat horns for this most recent performance. From what I've heard he hasn't been wearing them. Welker has been given them instead. Next in line has been Branch, Hernandez and the D. It seems like (some) Brady fans want to have it both ways.

That one definitely should have gone to the D as a whole.

 

[David Yudkin]

Football. more than any other sport, is a team game. Yet the QBs get the credit for most wins and get accused of choking when their team loses. That's the way it goes, I'm afraid.

I agree with most of the last few replies, but I have to tell ya, I am not hearing Brady get much of the blame for this loss. As a Giants living in the heart of Patriots land I've had to listen to how great Brady was in the first Superbowl. Never mind that 145 yards passing is a pretty weak way to earn MVP honors. It was all about how great Brady was and little credit given to the D which I felt really carried them to that win. If that is the standard, then Brady should be wearing the goat horns for this most recent performance. From what I've heard he hasn't been wearing them. Welker has been given them instead. Next in line has been Branch, Hernandez and the D. It seems like (some) Brady fans want to have it both ways.

The worst is the abuse Welker gets over this, and Brady just let him take it. Welker has put himself out there, doing whatever it takes, and playing through and beyond his own short comings. Its disturbing that he is the one taking the heat. His catch would not have sealed the deal, or promised any chance of a win for sure. It was a very tough catch, one that not many people his size even adjusts to put their hands on that ball. You could VERY EASILY say Brady's dumb safety or his dumb INT, or his inability outside of that pass, to lead his team down the field to put the game away was the cause of the loss. I dont see how Welker is even close to being the goat, but he takes it and puts it on his shoulders. I have some serious respect for him after that. He didnt call out Brady, (nor did anyone related or in relations to him) he didnt complain about the throw or the defense not making a stop, and he didnt go dancing away the pain. He took it and is probably going to come back even harder next year.

We can debate what could have happen if Welker comes down with the ball on that play, but I have seen him catch that ball countless times on similar throws. I would guess 3 out of 4 times. IMO, he should have caught it . . . but Brady certainly didn't help Welker's cause any. And like every other game, if you have to point to one or two plays that impacted the outcome, your team fell short in other areas or other drives. If the Pats got into the endzone when they were deep in the red zone earlier, that one non catch would not have loomed as large (just as an example).

 

[jurb26]

interesting point brought up by Dilfer on ESPN's postgame show..

in last two SBs, Brady and the Pats are 0-13 completing passing plays of 20+ yards..and that includes Moss in SB 42..now that might be 100% because of NE's coaching staff fearing the Giants pass rush and they chose to use short passes to neutralize Tuck & Co., but still, I found it a very interesting stat.and it's especially odd when you think of how many deep passing plays Brees dumped on NYG earlier in the season when the Saints blew the Giants doors off..

in critical times Brady failed to come through..missed a wide open Branch twice. threw behind some receivers.

Welker's miss was thrown behind him..threw a costly INT..

but no doubt about it, he was rattled by the Giants defense..so let's give credit where it is due.

Brady didn't lose the game,the Giants won it..

another thing about NE since their last SB victory is that they seem to have made a fundamental shift in philosophy, they've become a team that tries to hang 45 pts on every opponent, thus forcing opponents to change their game plan and become one-dimensional as they pass to play catch-up..

the problem is that the NE defense has gotten worse year after year..it's almost like BB has forgotten how to coach a defense and/or forgotten about defense come Draft Day...

biggest thing IMO, something that gets overlooked far too easily, is that they haven't won anything since both Crennel and Weis left after the 2004 season...

It's harsh to say they haven't won anything IMO. Making it to 2 super bowls is a feet that isn't easy to accomplish in it's self. They haven't won it all since Crennel and Weis have left, sure. In the end, it's winning that last game that is most critical.I agree with you in that NE seems to have become a team that is more intent on putting up 40+ points than simply winning with tempo and mistake free football now. I think they run into problems with teams like NYG because they don't emphasize pass protection as much as they used to and think it's more important to simply give Brady options. Options meaning multiple pass catchers to go through in progression. This means they are getting more people out into a route and less keeping less people in to protect their most valuable asset, Brady. This works very well vs. teams who can't create the kind of pressure NYG can with their front 4. It is stressed mightily if the team has a dominant front 4 pass rushers like NYG though. Simply put, I think the NYG D is just set up properly to handle a team like NE. They are an exception though and not the rule. NE hasn't done a good job in recent years vs. the NYG at adapting to overcome this.