Giants 12 men on the field during last drive... (1 Viewer)

[John 14:6]

Last night the Giants were called for 12 men on the field early on during New England's last drive. They were penalized 5 yards and I found myself thinking, perhaps the Giants should have continued sticking an extra guy (or more) out there. The Pats needed a TD, there was very little time left, and the penalty was only 5 yards. They probably could have afforded to give up an extra 5 yards a couple times to ensure the Pats didn't get a catch in the endzone...

 

[Ghost Rider]

If it was intentional, it was smart.

Also, I am always amazed more teams do not intentional commit pass interference in the final seconds of either half. I mean, if a team has 1st and goal at the 1 with 7 seconds to go in the half and they attempt a pass, drag down the player the ball is thrown to. Take the PI, and with only a few seconds left, force your opponent to either kick the FG or go for the TD again and risk not scoring at all when the times runs out.

 

[Shlon]

Game can't end on a defensive penalty, every time there's a penalty the clock stops as well until play is reset. Harder to score for offense but it helps them in that it's almost a free play and you have chance to regroup after penalty is called.

 

[Don Quixote]

It stops the clock, and game can't end on a defensive penalty. Not important on that play because it was an incomplete pass, but if offensive teams sees it, allows them to go across the middle without needing to worry about getting out of bounds to stop the clock.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

This actually has merit.

Why stop with 12 guys on the field though? If it is only a 5 yard penalty why not put 20 guys out there and really stop them.

The Giants penalty was not an intentional 12 men penalty as Tuck was late getting off the field.

Since it did take valuable time off the clock and it was only a 5 yard penalty it actually had no bearing on the game one way or the other as Tuck ended up just trotting off the field and did not help slow down the Patriots on that specific play. If I was a coach in a similar situation I may take the penalty a couple of times putting a ton of guys out there to stop them all the while killing the clock.

The NFL would probably make a rule that in the final 2 minutes of a game, if the team has too many men on the field the time that was left on the clock prior to the penalty would not elapse.

 

[The Doctor]

This actually has merit.

Why stop with 12 guys on the field though? If it is only a 5 yard penalty why not put 20 guys out there and really stop them.

The Giants penalty was not an intentional 12 men penalty as Tuck was late getting off the field.

Since it did take valuable time off the clock and it was only a 5 yard penalty it actually had no bearing on the game one way or the other as Tuck ended up just trotting off the field and did not help slow down the Patriots on that specific play. If I was a coach in a similar situation I may take the penalty a couple of times putting a ton of guys out there to stop them all the while killing the clock.

The NFL would probably make a rule that in the final 2 minutes of a game, if the team has too many men on the field the time that was left on the clock prior to the penalty would not elapse.

 

[Shlon]

This actually has merit.Why stop with 12 guys on the field though? If it is only a 5 yard penalty why not put 20 guys out there and really stop them.

If there were 20 guys on the field, refs wouldn't even allow the play to happen (stoppage in clock) and free 5 yards.

 

[SacramentoBob]

I don't think Coughlin wants to be known as a cheater like Bellichick.

 

[parrot]

It seems like the time should at least be put back on the clock in an instance like that.

 

[Amused to Death]

This actually has merit.Why stop with 12 guys on the field though? If it is only a 5 yard penalty why not put 20 guys out there and really stop them.

If there were 20 guys on the field, refs wouldn't even allow the play to happen (stoppage in clock) and free 5 yards.

Golic said on M&M this morning that Buddy Ryan would have as many as 15 on the field in a situation like that. Refs never stopped the play.

 

[the moops]

It seems like the time should at least be put back on the clock in an instance like that.

Yea, seems odd in a way. But I guess the defensive team could also just tackle every receiver at the line of scrimmage as well if they want a 5 yard penalty that runs 7 seconds off the clock

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

This actually has merit.

Why stop with 12 guys on the field though? If it is only a 5 yard penalty why not put 20 guys out there and really stop them.

The Giants penalty was not an intentional 12 men penalty as Tuck was late getting off the field.

Since it did take valuable time off the clock and it was only a 5 yard penalty it actually had no bearing on the game one way or the other as Tuck ended up just trotting off the field and did not help slow down the Patriots on that specific play. If I was a coach in a similar situation I may take the penalty a couple of times putting a ton of guys out there to stop them all the while killing the clock.

The NFL would probably make a rule that in the final 2 minutes of a game, if the team has too many men on the field the time that was left on the clock prior to the penalty would not elapse.

Ya I did not write that properly. I mean it only helped the Giants but to a smaller extent as the 1 guy did not make a difference in the play, but the time wasted was valuable.

 

[Shlon]

This actually has merit.Why stop with 12 guys on the field though? If it is only a 5 yard penalty why not put 20 guys out there and really stop them.

If there were 20 guys on the field, refs wouldn't even allow the play to happen (stoppage in clock) and free 5 yards.

Golic said on M&M this morning that Buddy Ryan would have as many as 15 on the field in a situation like that. Refs never stopped the play.

I think it was 14 players and they were trying to get a punt off. It would be a different situation if the refs saw 20 defenders on the field, maybe get flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

[roadkill1292]

I don't know if it was intentional or not but I remember laughing at how Belichickian a move it was.

 

[GregR]

Last night the Giants were called for 12 men on the field early on during New England's last drive. They were penalized 5 yards and I found myself thinking, perhaps the Giants should have continued sticking an extra guy (or more) out there. The Pats needed a TD, there was very little time left, and the penalty was only 5 yards. They probably could have afforded to give up an extra 5 yards a couple times to ensure the Pats didn't get a catch in the endzone...

The defense committing "successive or continued fouls to prevent a score" is a personal foul that results in the offense being awarded the score. In this case a touchdown.So no, this is not a strategy that should ever be tried. You can get away with doing it for 1 play, but not beyond that.

 

[Joe Summer]

Shark move: 46 men on the field for every play until the clock winds down to 0:00. Then 11 men on the field for the final play.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Isn't it a 5 yard penalty for 12 men on the field (one guy trying to get off the field as the ball is snapped), but a 15 yard penalty for illegal participation if all 12 guys are actually playing?

 

[GregR]

Isn't it a 5 yard penalty for 12 men on the field (one guy trying to get off the field as the ball is snapped), but a 15 yard penalty for illegal participation if all 12 guys are actually playing?

Nope, it is a 5 yard penalty regardless of whether the player participates or leaves the field.

 

[rick6668]

The Offense would just snap the ball and spike it, getting 5 yards for 1 second off the clock.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

in high school...if we recognize that 12 or more players are on the field prior to the snap, we are supposed to kill the play and it is a 5 yard penalty.....if it is recognized after the snap it is a 15 yard penalty.....we are told to kill it for "safety reasons"....I would imagine if the rule starts getting abused at the NFL something similiar would be put in place....

 

[Jene Bramel]

This actually has merit.

Why stop with 12 guys on the field though? If it is only a 5 yard penalty why not put 20 guys out there and really stop them.

If there were 20 guys on the field, refs wouldn't even allow the play to happen (stoppage in clock) and free 5 yards.

Golic said on M&M this morning that Buddy Ryan would have as many as 15 on the field in a situation like that. Refs never stopped the play.

Buddy Ryan's Polish Defense

 

[Donnybrook]

The Offense would just snap the ball and spike it, getting 5 yards for 1 second off the clock.

The offense should just call repeative hail marys. They will still get 5 yards if it is intercepted.

 

[Sarnoff]

If it was intentional, it was smart.

It wasn't intentional, Brady saw the 12th guy running for the sideline and snapped it quick to catch him still on the field for the flag.

 

[Addai's Adidas]

That would be unsportsmanlike.

 

[Warhogs]

I don't fully grasp the idea of this being a smart tactic if intentional. The 12th man makes this a free play for the offense and the game can not end on a defensive penalty. You basically are giving your opponent an extra play to try to score on. In my mind it really isn't any different than throwing a bomb downfield if the defense jumps offside. Why not fling it down there and see if you get lucky on the free play?

 

[Shutout]

As a few have mentioned, you can't end the game on a defensive penalty so at some point you are just giving free plays and increasing the likliehood that the offense scores.

If you did something silly like put 15 guys on the field (and especially if you did it on back to back occurences), that would likely draw an "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty or an "intential delay of game".

Last night, it WAS effective to a degree based on how it played out, but it could have just as easily have ended up as a completely run play where the Pats made a huge gain or scored and then declined the penalty.

It is probably one of those things where, situationally, it could be brilliant if executed in a split second decision but nothing I think a team could rely on doing a few times a year.

 

[jhib]

Isn't it a 5 yard penalty for 12 men on the field (one guy trying to get off the field as the ball is snapped), but a 15 yard penalty for illegal participation if all 12 guys are actually playing?

Nope, it is a 5 yard penalty regardless of whether the player participates or leaves the field.

Am I mistaken, or wasn't the same penalty on the Patriots during the 1st quarter play with the would-be Cruz fumble one where all 12 were playing?I remember hearing someone say the Giants were fortunate, but if the 12 guys were playing, then there's no telling what would have happened in the play otherwise, so fortune didn't really seem like part of it to me.

 

[SacramentoBob]

You basically are giving your opponent an extra play to try to score on.

No, you're trying to run the clock down on a play when you have a huge advantage. They are going to have enough time to run 2 plays anyway. If you decrease their chances of scoring in one play from 10% to 1% at the cost of a 5-yard penalty, it's probably worth it.

 

[GregR]

As a few have mentioned, you can't end the game on a defensive penalty so at some point you are just giving free plays and increasing the likliehood that the offense scores.

If you did something silly like put 15 guys on the field (and especially if you did it on back to back occurences), that would likely draw an "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty or an "intential delay of game".

Last night, it WAS effective to a degree based on how it played out, but it could have just as easily have ended up as a completely run play where the Pats made a huge gain or scored and then declined the penalty.

It is probably one of those things where, situationally, it could be brilliant if executed in a split second decision but nothing I think a team could rely on doing a few times a year.

Again, if a defense did this to prevent a score, by rule the offense would be awarded a touchdown.

 

[qimqam]

As a few have mentioned, you can't end the game on a defensive penalty so at some point you are just giving free plays and increasing the likliehood that the offense scores.

If you did something silly like put 15 guys on the field (and especially if you did it on back to back occurences), that would likely draw an "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty or an "intential delay of game".

Last night, it WAS effective to a degree based on how it played out, but it could have just as easily have ended up as a completely run play where the Pats made a huge gain or scored and then declined the penalty.

It is probably one of those things where, situationally, it could be brilliant if executed in a split second decision but nothing I think a team could rely on doing a few times a year.

It's not just as likely ... it's harder to move the ball when there are more defenders on the field.

 

[parrot]

I don't fully grasp the idea of this being a smart tactic if intentional. The 12th man makes this a free play for the offense and the game can not end on a defensive penalty. You basically are giving your opponent an extra play to try to score on. In my mind it really isn't any different than throwing a bomb downfield if the defense jumps offside. Why not fling it down there and see if you get lucky on the free play?

It's not a "free play" for the offense when their most scarce resource is time. You can fling it down there, but you are doing so against an extra defender on the field and using valuable time in the process.

 

[MNTom]

As a few have mentioned, you can't end the game on a defensive penalty so at some point you are just giving free plays and increasing the likliehood that the offense scores.

If you did something silly like put 15 guys on the field (and especially if you did it on back to back occurences), that would likely draw an "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty or an "intential delay of game".

Last night, it WAS effective to a degree based on how it played out, but it could have just as easily have ended up as a completely run play where the Pats made a huge gain or scored and then declined the penalty.

It is probably one of those things where, situationally, it could be brilliant if executed in a split second decision but nothing I think a team could rely on doing a few times a year.

Again, if a defense did this to prevent a score, by rule the offense would be awarded a touchdown.

Give me section of NFL rule book which says the offense would be awarded a touchdown. I have seen it posted twice in this topic but no where is there substantiation from the rule book.

 

[GregR]

As a few have mentioned, you can't end the game on a defensive penalty so at some point you are just giving free plays and increasing the likliehood that the offense scores.

If you did something silly like put 15 guys on the field (and especially if you did it on back to back occurences), that would likely draw an "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty or an "intential delay of game".

Last night, it WAS effective to a degree based on how it played out, but it could have just as easily have ended up as a completely run play where the Pats made a huge gain or scored and then declined the penalty.

It is probably one of those things where, situationally, it could be brilliant if executed in a split second decision but nothing I think a team could rely on doing a few times a year.

Again, if a defense did this to prevent a score, by rule the offense would be awarded a touchdown.

Give me section of NFL rule book which says the offense would be awarded a touchdown. I have seen it posted twice in this topic but no where is there substantiation from the rule book.

Mike Pereira @MikePereira

"@jb7411>Can't do it. Rule 12-3-2."The defense shall not commit successive or continued fouls to prevent a score." Penalty: awarded TD

FOULS TO PREVENT SCORE

Article 2 The defense shall not commit successive or continued fouls to prevent a score.

Penalty: For continuous fouls to prevent a score: If the violation is repeated after a warning, the

score involved is awarded to the offensive team.

 

[johnadams]

I don't fully grasp the idea of this being a smart tactic if intentional. The 12th man makes this a free play for the offense and the game can not end on a defensive penalty. You basically are giving your opponent an extra play to try to score on. In my mind it really isn't any different than throwing a bomb downfield if the defense jumps offside. Why not fling it down there and see if you get lucky on the free play?

It's not a "free play" for the offense when their most scarce resource is time. You can fling it down there, but you are doing so against an extra defender on the field and using valuable time in the process.

I wondered if it was intentional at the time. Kinda brilliant if so. Trading five yards for 10 seconds at that point is a great idea. I know that's a bit simplistic, but I'd do that any day given the situation. We might see that rule corrected as the offense ultimately gets penalized in that situation. Something like the offense can either take the yards or have the time reset. Otherwise, I guarantee we'll see more of this next year.

 

[heckmanm]

If it was intentional, it was smart.

It wasn't intentional, Brady saw the 12th guy running for the sideline and snapped it quick to catch him still on the field for the flag.

Yeah, I thought the overhead shot where NBC numbered the guys showed pretty clearly the 12th defender running for the sideline. No advantage to the Giants in this case, as it was an incomplete pass with 11 active defenders.

 

[MNTom]

As a few have mentioned, you can't end the game on a defensive penalty so at some point you are just giving free plays and increasing the likliehood that the offense scores.

If you did something silly like put 15 guys on the field (and especially if you did it on back to back occurences), that would likely draw an "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty or an "intential delay of game".

Last night, it WAS effective to a degree based on how it played out, but it could have just as easily have ended up as a completely run play where the Pats made a huge gain or scored and then declined the penalty.

It is probably one of those things where, situationally, it could be brilliant if executed in a split second decision but nothing I think a team could rely on doing a few times a year.

Again, if a defense did this to prevent a score, by rule the offense would be awarded a touchdown.

Give me section of NFL rule book which says the offense would be awarded a touchdown. I have seen it posted twice in this topic but no where is there substantiation from the rule book.

Mike Pereira @MikePereira

"@jb7411>Can't do it. Rule 12-3-2."The defense shall not commit successive or continued fouls to prevent a score." Penalty: awarded TD

FOULS TO PREVENT SCORE

Article 2 The defense shall not commit successive or continued fouls to prevent a score.

Penalty: For continuous fouls to prevent a score: If the violation is repeated after a warning, the

score involved is awarded to the offensive team.

So you can do it until a warning is issued.

 

[Riversco]

Yah put 15 men out there, rush 8, sack the QB, get called for too many men on the field, and burn some time off the clock.

 

[duaneok66]

the rule should be changed to prevent it from even happening once - it's a simple fix - in the last two minutes, if there is no play (defensive penalty) then time should be put back on as if the play never happened.

Problem solved.

In the case before us, the Patriots should have had 8 seconds put back on.

 

[Sarnoff]

As a few have mentioned, you can't end the game on a defensive penalty so at some point you are just giving free plays and increasing the likliehood that the offense scores.

If you did something silly like put 15 guys on the field (and especially if you did it on back to back occurences), that would likely draw an "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty or an "intential delay of game".

Last night, it WAS effective to a degree based on how it played out, but it could have just as easily have ended up as a completely run play where the Pats made a huge gain or scored and then declined the penalty.

It is probably one of those things where, situationally, it could be brilliant if executed in a split second decision but nothing I think a team could rely on doing a few times a year.

Again, if a defense did this to prevent a score, by rule the offense would be awarded a touchdown.

Give me section of NFL rule book which says the offense would be awarded a touchdown. I have seen it posted twice in this topic but no where is there substantiation from the rule book.

Mike Pereira @MikePereira

"@jb7411>Can't do it. Rule 12-3-2."The defense shall not commit successive or continued fouls to prevent a score." Penalty: awarded TD

FOULS TO PREVENT SCORE

Article 2 The defense shall not commit successive or continued fouls to prevent a score.

Penalty: For continuous fouls to prevent a score: If the violation is repeated after a warning, the

score involved is awarded to the offensive team.

So you can do it until a warning is issued.

A plausibly deniable play like 12 men accidentally on the field? Sure. But a "palpably unfair act", like an assistant coach sticking his foot onto the field of play to trip up a runner along the sideline who's streaking for a TD can also result in a touchdown awarded by the referee without the need for a warning.

 

[Sarnoff]

the rule should be changed to prevent it from being happening once - it's a simple fix - in the last two minutes, if there is no play (defensive penalty) then time should be put back on as if the play never happened. Problem solved.In the case before us, the Patriots should have had 8 seconds put back on.

I think the rules committee will take a look at this rule in the offseason. Give the offense a chance to either take the result of the play, or take the 5-yards and reset clock.Tom Terrific could have just spiked the ball, of course. He saw the 12th man running toward the sideline trying to get off in time. That's why they did the quick-snap to catch him on the grass. If it's a "free play", a spiked incompletion that takes 1 second is better than one that takes 10.

 

[dickey moe]

I don't know if it was intentional or not but I remember laughing at how Belichickian a move it was.

If this word hasn't been invented before now then kudos to you.

 

[MNTom]

As a few have mentioned, you can't end the game on a defensive penalty so at some point you are just giving free plays and increasing the likliehood that the offense scores.

If you did something silly like put 15 guys on the field (and especially if you did it on back to back occurences), that would likely draw an "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty or an "intential delay of game".

Last night, it WAS effective to a degree based on how it played out, but it could have just as easily have ended up as a completely run play where the Pats made a huge gain or scored and then declined the penalty.

It is probably one of those things where, situationally, it could be brilliant if executed in a split second decision but nothing I think a team could rely on doing a few times a year.

Again, if a defense did this to prevent a score, by rule the offense would be awarded a touchdown.

Give me section of NFL rule book which says the offense would be awarded a touchdown. I have seen it posted twice in this topic but no where is there substantiation from the rule book.

Mike Pereira @MikePereira

"@jb7411>Can't do it. Rule 12-3-2."The defense shall not commit successive or continued fouls to prevent a score." Penalty: awarded TD

FOULS TO PREVENT SCORE

Article 2 The defense shall not commit successive or continued fouls to prevent a score.

Penalty: For continuous fouls to prevent a score: If the violation is repeated after a warning, the

score involved is awarded to the offensive team.

So you can do it until a warning is issued.

A plausibly deniable play like 12 men accidentally on the field? Sure. But a "palpably unfair act", like an assistant coach sticking his foot onto the field of play to trip up a runner along the sideline who's streaking for a TD can also result in a touchdown awarded by the referee without the need for a warning.

A "palpably unfair act" is covered under Rule 13, Articles 7 & 8.

 

[N Zone]

That 5 yard penalty allowed a hail mary to reach well into the endzone. Without it, the Patriots, might have been doing the tip drill at the 2 yard line.