I disagree re-riding dynasty stuff, his dynasty built was the hogs and those WRs.Anyone could throw to those WRs and anyone could run behind the hogsHe's a great coach and as far as this thread, I'd call them equal but "starting over with an entirely new offense" isn't trueExactly
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Gibbs vs. Parcells (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter pollardsvision
- Start date
redman
Footballguy
And but for Brady's mom, there'd be no Tom Brady.So Brady's mom > Parcells.
Tau837
Footballguy
Parcells took 10 teams to the playoffs with 6 different QBs (Simms, Hostetler, Bledsoe, Testaverde, Carter, and Romo). But he took 4 franchises to the playoffs at least one time each. IMO that was harder.Gibbs does have the distinction of winning 3 SBs with 3 QBs, though, as compared to Parcells winning 2 SBs with 2 different QBs and losing 1 SB with a 3rd QB.
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Tau837
Footballguy
Comments:1. It is apples and oranges to compare their regular season winning percentage. After achieving sustained success with the Giants, Parcells moved to 3 different franchises that were in terrible shape. The time required for him to turn them around pulled down his winning percentage. Gibbs only had to deal with that twice, the two times he took over the Redskins.dgreen said:
2. Same point applies to comparing number of playoff appearances and number of losing seasons.
3. Parcells won 8 division titles in 19 years, compared to 6 in 16 years for Gibbs.
4. The bulk of Gibbs' success was before the salary cap era, which began in 1994. He retired the first time after the 1992 season. Parcells coached 6 more seasons than Gibbs (10 to 4) after the salary cap was put into place. Again, I think this makes a straight comparison of record more of an apples and oranges comparison, since Parcells coached more of his career under salary cap constraints.
5. Both won AP coach of the year twice. Gibbs won back to back in 1982 and 1983, while Parcells won in 1986 and 1994.
6. Parcells was one of two coaches on the 1990s All Decade team (with Marv Levy). Gibbs did not receive a comparable honor (Walsh and Noll were honored for the 1980s... I'm not sure why Noll was chosen over Gibbs).
dgreen
Footballguy
Okay, so just compare Parcells with the Giants to Gibbs with the Redskins.Gibbs 0.621 > Parcells 0.611. And, that includes Gibbs' second run with Washington. It would be even more in Gibbs favor if you compare apples to apples here. Gibbs was an amazing 0.674 in his first run.
Or, take out Parcells' first year in NE, NY, and DAL and his winning percentage skyrockets from 0.579 to 0.582.
Again, let's compare apples to apples then.Gibbs 1.0 vs. Parcells with NYG:
Gibbs was 8/12 on playoff appearances and Parcells was 5/8. A slightly better percentage for Gibbs. Also, Gibbs only had one losing season his first go around, while Parcells had 2 in his 8 years.
And again, if you take out Parcells first year in NE, NYJ, and DAL, his playoff appearances are 9/16 compared to Gibbs' 10/16.
Not huge differences, but when you start taking stuff out of Parcells' resume to make him look better, he still falls slightly short.
Good find. That's another one for Parcells. Although, I'd guess the NFC East in both of Gibbs runs was tougher competition than the AFC East while Bill was in NE and NYJ. But, Parcells was 5/8 in his first run compared to Gibbs' 6/12, so Bill gets that one.
I've never really seen anything too convincing to make me believe it is a lot harder to win in the salary cap era than the previous era.Also, if you want talk apples to apples, I'm not sure comparing 10 years to 4 years is the fairest comparison.
Is that supposed to be an argument for either of them?
Wow, Noll over Gibbs for the 90s? That's pretty funny.I'm not trying to take anything away from Parcells. I just think he gets more cred than he deserves because he has some great sound bytes with the media and has the whole ESPN love thing going for him. He was a great coach. But, as I already said, when comparing him to all the greats, he may not make it into my top 10.
Tau837
Footballguy
The difference here is basically Parcells' first season with the Giants, when they were 3-12-1. AFter that, his winning percentage was .667 in the regular season, comparable to Gibbs 1.0. And Parcells won more division titles and had the better record against Gibbs head to head and in the playoffs. I mean, that season happened, I'm not saying to remove it from consideration, just pointing out that Parcells' body of work with the Giants after his first season was comparable to Gibbs' body of work in his first stint with the Redskins.
See above. The difference is Parcells' first season. (But, of course, it counts.)
Are you suggesting that it wasn't easier in the 80s to keep a great team together than it has been since the salary cap was put into place?I wasn't comparing 10 years to 4 years. I was pointing out that in your comparison of Gibbs' 16 years to Parcells' 19 years, Gibbs only had to deal with the salary cap for 4 of them, during which he was markedly less successful than in his first stint, I might add, whereas Parcells had to deal with it for more than half of his career. It is a small point, but then again, I think most of the differences between them come down to small points.
No, I thought it was okay to just interject some facts into the discussion.
No, Noll over Gibbs for the 1980s. But it would seem to me that Gibbs was more deserving for the 1980s. Gibbs made the playoffs 5 times to Noll's 4 times, and Gibbs won 2 Super Bowls and 2 COY awards during that decade. Noll won 0 Super Bowls in the 1980s and never won COY. So I don't really get that choice.
dgreen
Footballguy
I'm just saying it's a popular thing to say that it's harder to get good results now, but I'm not sure it is. Yeah, it was easier for the Redskins to keep a team together for many years, but that would then also be true for San Fran, Dallas, Chicago, and New York. Similarly, today it may be tougher to keep a team together, but that's true for your team and your opponents. So, I don't see how one is automatically tougher than the other.Just Win Baby said:
Oh, just didn't know if you were trying to say Parcells' awards were better because they were spread out.
Oops. That was a typo on my part.
buster c
Footballguy
looks like this is a drive-by posting with no follow up to the two retorts I've seen. This is a line I'm sure many Skin fans have heard over the years and I suspect it is simply an antagonistic ploy because it's never been made clear to me why "they don't really count"I'll add that the strike year in 1982 added a layer of difficulty in that the playoffs were expanded and the Skins needed to win an unprecedented 4 games for the championship.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
Great point, but I recall hearing a most interesting story once about how Parcell's mom actually saved Brady's mom's life when they were both little. Something about a rock climbing incident. So.........Parcell's mom>Brady's mom
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
As time passes, Parcells seems like an organization cancer more than anything else. More than T.O. as the latter has done something in the last decade. Wish the guy would just go away. Stick to the studio Bill.
Gibbs/Parcells WERE great in their day, and just like any great player, their time has passed. They are history. And wish they'd remain such.
Gibbs/Parcells WERE great in their day, and just like any great player, their time has passed. They are history. And wish they'd remain such.
Steady Mooobin
Footballguy
Craig_MiamiFL said:
What? I know you Miami fans are bitter down there but WTF does this come from?Bill will have that franchise turned around and in the Playoffs in 2-3 years.
massraider
Footballguy
Winning a title in a strike year is a testament to good coaching, IMO.Far from a knock on Gibbs, it's one of the more impressive things on his resume.
There's a great article by Pat Kirwan calling BP the billion dollar man or somesuch. It's worth googling to see.The Fins owner wanted to sell. Things weren't so smooth. BP was brought in. Part of the team was sold for a significant sum maybe a month or two after. That's something right there. (Yes, re this thread, I think Gibbs could do that too) Cancer is pretty far off base IMOCraig_MiamiFL said:
Here Craig
Bill Parcells is back in the NFL but this time he is not the head coach or the GM. Parcells has a new title -- executive vice president of football operations for the Miami Dolphins -- and a new and improved business model.
As people speculate about how he's going to operate from the owner's booth rather than the sideline, you can rest assured he has worked out all of the details and it's in the business plan. His plan is that of a CEO charged with reorganizing and righting the ship to bring value to the "shareholders" (in this case, Dolphins owner Wayne Huizenga) who have entrusted him with the helm.
Parcells will stay off the sidelines and in the owner's box like the CEO stays in the board room. He will bring in his team to implement his plans in the front office and sidelines. Already, he has hired former Dallas Cowboys personnel man Jeff Ireland as his new general manager, and Ireland will be charged with hiring a new head coach after Cam Cameron was fired on Thursday.
Parcells will surround himself with people who see things his way. He can easily fix the front office, coaching staff and player pool. Check his history and you realize he has always left a team in better shape than it was in when he got there. But most importantly, and until now often overlooked, he has left the owner with a more valuable franchise. That's why Parcells' new business model could earn him the title of the NFL's billion-dollar man.
The business model he has constructed is a stroke of genius -- and a model he may not be done using. After he fixes the Dolphins and increases the franchise value, he and his team of consultants will be poised to move on to the next undervalued franchise.
At the next stop, though, don't expect Parcells to be an employee of the franchise. He and his team will help maximize the shareholder value -- much like American billionaire financier Carl Icahn and his team do in the corporate world, but without the "corporate-raider" approach available to Icahn. Parcells' group may function as a super consulting firm that gets paid a fee based on the increased value that his firm brings to the franchise. As long as I am speculating, I will call the firm "Legacy Consulting."
At 66, Parcells would be considered too old to be on the field every day, but in this new model he may be just getting warmed up. Icahn is 71 and shows no signs of slowing down. Parcells has a number of very qualified friends who are semi-retired but have the vision, experience, and energy to join the team at Legacy Consulting. They will hire young guns with a passion for the business of football, and Parcells will expand his legacy beyond the white lines.
Their mission will be to fix dysfunctional organizations and bring enhanced value to ownership. A lot of owners have already turned to Parcells to accelerate the value of their franchise, which is what has put Parcells in the unique position he is in today.
Profitable results
A look at the Parcells Effect at his first four NFL stops might show Huizenga what he can expect to happen in Miami. Parcells has been the head coach, and in some cases the GM, of the Giants, Patriots, Jets and Cowboys. As NFL franchises are privately held, with the exception of the Green Bay Packers, the value of franchises can only be concretely established when they are sold. But thanks to Forbes Magazine and its annual valuations of NFL franchises, the public has some point of reference for the ever-increasing values.
According to Forbes, all four of Parcells' former teams are valued among the top 10 NFL organizations in the 2007 report. Dallas was valued at $851 million when Parcells arrived in 2003 and ranked No. 2 behind the Redskins ($952 million). Today, the Cowboys are the top seed in the NFC playoffs and they are valued at $1.5 billion -- ranked No. 1, with a new stadium under construction. How much of that $649 million increase in value is due to Parcells the CEO and his overhaul of the on-field portion of the organization? Those are his players winning games this season.
I was with the Jets when Parcells arrived. Our owner, Mr. Leon Hess, wanted a winner before he passed away, and Parcells delivered. But Mr. Hess had also established that the team would be sold upon his death. His return on investment in Parcells was quantified at the sale.
When Parcells arrived in 1997, Forbes valued the club at about $225 million. When he left after three years, there was an outstanding new owner who faced stiff competition in his successful bid to purchase the Jets -- paying in excess of $400 million, an increase of approximately $175 million.
The Patriots story is the most interesting. In the early '90s, New England needed a new owner but the club value was so low that the league got involved in fixing up the franchise for sale. Parcells was hand-picked by the NFL to be the head coach and general manager and given the charge to reorganize and effectively reposition the New England Patriots franchise in the marketplace.
It worked. The team found its new owner in Bob Kraft and Parcells took the Patriots to the Super Bowl. Then, in 1996, Parcells introduced Kraft to Bill Belichick, the first major success in Parcells' coaching legacy.
Since this timeframe pre-dates Forbes' NFL valuations, it is difficult to quantify Parcells' contribution to the increased value of the Patriots franchise, but it is safe to say that it was in excess of $100 million. Today the Patriots rank No. 3 on Forbes' list with a value of $1.199 billion.
When Parcells took over for Ray Perkins as head coach of the Giants, that franchise was in bad shape. Of course, Parcells won two Super Bowls. As he walked out the door after the 1990 season, the Mara family was also able to sell half of the franchise to the Tisch family in 1991. Back in 1998, the Giants were ranked 15th in value. Today they sit in the No. 8 spot.
Dolphins in decline
As Huizenga looks at the four previous franchises that Parcells has been with, he sees the value of the four clubs shot up just about as fast as the team record under his direction. New Stadiums got approved and constructed, part-owners and new owners surfaced, and the owners that hired Parcells had a chance to sell and make more money.
If you want to know how all of this ties into Parcells' current role at the Dolphins, keep in mind that Huizenga was reported to be considering the sale of the Dolphins just days before he signed Parcells to a four-year contract. The talks have subsided for now.
Dolphins ranking in Forbes Magazine
Year Rank
1998 7th
1999 7th
2000 8th
2001 10th
2002 10th
2003 10th
2004 11th
2005 12th
2006 12th
2007 15th
Huizenga purchased the club in 1993 and currently has a franchise ranked 15th in value by Forbes at $942 million. Not a bad spot to be in -- but not as good as in previous years. A look at the Dolphins' ranking in Forbes' annual reports, and you see a franchise in steady decline (see chart).
The trend is plain to see. As part of Parcells' progress report on his venture to turn around the Dolphins, I will now be as focused on the financial metrics as I will be on the wins. Parcells will not only be looking to increase the $942 million value, but he certainly has his competitive eyes on improving the No. 15 ranking and the brass ring at $1.5 billion that has been established in Dallas.
Parcells will need three years to fully implement his plan with the Dolphins. He knows better than to try to rush in with a quick fix. Parcells will carefully manage the expectations of Huizenga. History indicates the value of the Dolphins may grow all on its own during the next three years. But Parcells will have a financial analysis that will prove his worth in maximizing the team's value. It will involve improving the ranking as compared to other franchises.
Forbes indicates the club's value has gone up $86 million since 2005. Three years of the Parcells Effect, along with the normal growth in club values, and Huizenga could be sitting on a team worth $1.2 billion. Huizenga may be able to sell 49 percent of the franchise for $600 million in 2010 -- maybe $400 million more than he originally paid for the club -- and still maintain majority ownership.
If Parcells succeeds and delivers this kind of value to Huizenga, it's reasonable to expect lots of potential owners to come calling for his services, and Legacy Consulting is off and running.
Other NFL owners will be lining up for a shot at engaging the services of Parcells' new business. For example, San Francisco was Forbes' 16th-ranked team in 1999; today they are No. 30. The Jaguars were ninth in 1999 and today they are No. 29. The Rams were 14th in 1999 and today they are No. 22.
In 2007, two owners bid for Parcells' services and the Dolphins outbid the Falcons. Who will be bidding for the services of Legacy Consulting in 2011?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story;jsessionid=2...mp;confirm=true
Bill Parcells is back in the NFL but this time he is not the head coach or the GM. Parcells has a new title -- executive vice president of football operations for the Miami Dolphins -- and a new and improved business model.
As people speculate about how he's going to operate from the owner's booth rather than the sideline, you can rest assured he has worked out all of the details and it's in the business plan. His plan is that of a CEO charged with reorganizing and righting the ship to bring value to the "shareholders" (in this case, Dolphins owner Wayne Huizenga) who have entrusted him with the helm.
Parcells will stay off the sidelines and in the owner's box like the CEO stays in the board room. He will bring in his team to implement his plans in the front office and sidelines. Already, he has hired former Dallas Cowboys personnel man Jeff Ireland as his new general manager, and Ireland will be charged with hiring a new head coach after Cam Cameron was fired on Thursday.
Parcells will surround himself with people who see things his way. He can easily fix the front office, coaching staff and player pool. Check his history and you realize he has always left a team in better shape than it was in when he got there. But most importantly, and until now often overlooked, he has left the owner with a more valuable franchise. That's why Parcells' new business model could earn him the title of the NFL's billion-dollar man.
The business model he has constructed is a stroke of genius -- and a model he may not be done using. After he fixes the Dolphins and increases the franchise value, he and his team of consultants will be poised to move on to the next undervalued franchise.
At the next stop, though, don't expect Parcells to be an employee of the franchise. He and his team will help maximize the shareholder value -- much like American billionaire financier Carl Icahn and his team do in the corporate world, but without the "corporate-raider" approach available to Icahn. Parcells' group may function as a super consulting firm that gets paid a fee based on the increased value that his firm brings to the franchise. As long as I am speculating, I will call the firm "Legacy Consulting."
At 66, Parcells would be considered too old to be on the field every day, but in this new model he may be just getting warmed up. Icahn is 71 and shows no signs of slowing down. Parcells has a number of very qualified friends who are semi-retired but have the vision, experience, and energy to join the team at Legacy Consulting. They will hire young guns with a passion for the business of football, and Parcells will expand his legacy beyond the white lines.
Their mission will be to fix dysfunctional organizations and bring enhanced value to ownership. A lot of owners have already turned to Parcells to accelerate the value of their franchise, which is what has put Parcells in the unique position he is in today.
Profitable results
A look at the Parcells Effect at his first four NFL stops might show Huizenga what he can expect to happen in Miami. Parcells has been the head coach, and in some cases the GM, of the Giants, Patriots, Jets and Cowboys. As NFL franchises are privately held, with the exception of the Green Bay Packers, the value of franchises can only be concretely established when they are sold. But thanks to Forbes Magazine and its annual valuations of NFL franchises, the public has some point of reference for the ever-increasing values.
According to Forbes, all four of Parcells' former teams are valued among the top 10 NFL organizations in the 2007 report. Dallas was valued at $851 million when Parcells arrived in 2003 and ranked No. 2 behind the Redskins ($952 million). Today, the Cowboys are the top seed in the NFC playoffs and they are valued at $1.5 billion -- ranked No. 1, with a new stadium under construction. How much of that $649 million increase in value is due to Parcells the CEO and his overhaul of the on-field portion of the organization? Those are his players winning games this season.
I was with the Jets when Parcells arrived. Our owner, Mr. Leon Hess, wanted a winner before he passed away, and Parcells delivered. But Mr. Hess had also established that the team would be sold upon his death. His return on investment in Parcells was quantified at the sale.
When Parcells arrived in 1997, Forbes valued the club at about $225 million. When he left after three years, there was an outstanding new owner who faced stiff competition in his successful bid to purchase the Jets -- paying in excess of $400 million, an increase of approximately $175 million.
The Patriots story is the most interesting. In the early '90s, New England needed a new owner but the club value was so low that the league got involved in fixing up the franchise for sale. Parcells was hand-picked by the NFL to be the head coach and general manager and given the charge to reorganize and effectively reposition the New England Patriots franchise in the marketplace.
It worked. The team found its new owner in Bob Kraft and Parcells took the Patriots to the Super Bowl. Then, in 1996, Parcells introduced Kraft to Bill Belichick, the first major success in Parcells' coaching legacy.
Since this timeframe pre-dates Forbes' NFL valuations, it is difficult to quantify Parcells' contribution to the increased value of the Patriots franchise, but it is safe to say that it was in excess of $100 million. Today the Patriots rank No. 3 on Forbes' list with a value of $1.199 billion.
When Parcells took over for Ray Perkins as head coach of the Giants, that franchise was in bad shape. Of course, Parcells won two Super Bowls. As he walked out the door after the 1990 season, the Mara family was also able to sell half of the franchise to the Tisch family in 1991. Back in 1998, the Giants were ranked 15th in value. Today they sit in the No. 8 spot.
Dolphins in decline
As Huizenga looks at the four previous franchises that Parcells has been with, he sees the value of the four clubs shot up just about as fast as the team record under his direction. New Stadiums got approved and constructed, part-owners and new owners surfaced, and the owners that hired Parcells had a chance to sell and make more money.
If you want to know how all of this ties into Parcells' current role at the Dolphins, keep in mind that Huizenga was reported to be considering the sale of the Dolphins just days before he signed Parcells to a four-year contract. The talks have subsided for now.
Dolphins ranking in Forbes Magazine
Year Rank
1998 7th
1999 7th
2000 8th
2001 10th
2002 10th
2003 10th
2004 11th
2005 12th
2006 12th
2007 15th
Huizenga purchased the club in 1993 and currently has a franchise ranked 15th in value by Forbes at $942 million. Not a bad spot to be in -- but not as good as in previous years. A look at the Dolphins' ranking in Forbes' annual reports, and you see a franchise in steady decline (see chart).
The trend is plain to see. As part of Parcells' progress report on his venture to turn around the Dolphins, I will now be as focused on the financial metrics as I will be on the wins. Parcells will not only be looking to increase the $942 million value, but he certainly has his competitive eyes on improving the No. 15 ranking and the brass ring at $1.5 billion that has been established in Dallas.
Parcells will need three years to fully implement his plan with the Dolphins. He knows better than to try to rush in with a quick fix. Parcells will carefully manage the expectations of Huizenga. History indicates the value of the Dolphins may grow all on its own during the next three years. But Parcells will have a financial analysis that will prove his worth in maximizing the team's value. It will involve improving the ranking as compared to other franchises.
Forbes indicates the club's value has gone up $86 million since 2005. Three years of the Parcells Effect, along with the normal growth in club values, and Huizenga could be sitting on a team worth $1.2 billion. Huizenga may be able to sell 49 percent of the franchise for $600 million in 2010 -- maybe $400 million more than he originally paid for the club -- and still maintain majority ownership.
If Parcells succeeds and delivers this kind of value to Huizenga, it's reasonable to expect lots of potential owners to come calling for his services, and Legacy Consulting is off and running.
Other NFL owners will be lining up for a shot at engaging the services of Parcells' new business. For example, San Francisco was Forbes' 16th-ranked team in 1999; today they are No. 30. The Jaguars were ninth in 1999 and today they are No. 29. The Rams were 14th in 1999 and today they are No. 22.
In 2007, two owners bid for Parcells' services and the Dolphins outbid the Falcons. Who will be bidding for the services of Legacy Consulting in 2011?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story;jsessionid=2...mp;confirm=true
Further, Kirwan thought Huzienga could get 1.2 bil for them, he got 1.1bil for half
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/football/352433_nfln23.html
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/football/352433_nfln23.html
and the only way you'd get Parcells in that cage is if you set a few bear traps there, loaded with food...
trollmonger
Footballguy
I had the same question and ultimately chose not to vote because I wasn't sure I understood the question. I think Parcells is a better team builder. I think Gibbs is the better coach.If my team was horrible, I'd want Parcells. He'd build it into a contender within a few years. If my team was average or better, I'd take Gibbs. He'd get the best from his players and be more likely to win a championship.
