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Haley on Jamaal Charles' Rushing Workload (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Touchdown There
- Start date
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Disclosure - I own Charles in no leagues, but he is an obvious talent.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
What a meanie.
Rick James
Footballguy
I just don't get this. Yes, you led the league in rushing. If you had given Charles more carries, you would have ran for more yards. Is it so "anti-TEAM" to suggest this?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Doing it the way Haley does it keeps both guys fresh and makes the running game work (obviously). It is not that hard to figure out. We can't just assume that if you gave Charles 8-10 more carries a game, that he would continue to average over 6 YPC. He might wear down over the course of the season with the extra carries and not be as effective. We just don't know. What we do know is that when Haley distributes the carries as he has thus far, the KC running game is dominant.
KC game threads should be fun again this year, as every Charles owner #####es every time Thomas Jones gets the ball, like it is something new.
KC game threads should be fun again this year, as every Charles owner #####es every time Thomas Jones gets the ball, like it is something new.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Charles, Foster, Jackson and Mendenhall were the only RBs to get at least 10 carries in every game last year. Haley is giving Charles carries while being sure not to overuse him. The one glaring mistake I see was giving Charles only 10 carries in the first loss to the Raiders: that was really inexcusable.
In general, Haley seemes to want to avoid the 20-carry mark. For example, Charles only got 20 carries in close victories over Buffalo and Denver and in a late road win at Seattle (when Charles got most of his carries with the game in doubt). In the losses, well, KC was blown out twice (SD, Den) and Charles only got 14 carries in each of those games, and the week 17 game was a somewhat meaningless game for KC (another 14 carries). In the two close losses, he got 16 carries, and I suppose could have received a few more -- but those were early in the season and you get that sense that Haley was looking not to wear him out.
He seems to be taking a very measured (and perhaps, unusual) approach to preserving Charles. Not killing him early in the year, so he has a lot later. Not overusing him early in games, so he can use him late if the game is close and in doubt. For example, in week 15 against the Rams, Charles got 10 carries in the first three quarters as KC for 46 yards but the Chiefs were in good shape. They were up 17-6 at the start of the 4th, and Thomas Jones got the first 5 carries of the 4th quarter. Now the Rams were a bad team and the Chiefs had a big lead, so can you blame Haley for "resting" Charles?
They gave Charles one carry in the 4th with just under 4 mins to go, and he ran for 80 yards -- but got tackled at the 2. Jones scored the TD, Charles ends the game with 11 carries, and fantasy owners hate Haley. But I'm not sure his usage deserve criticism.
To put it another way, the Chiefs won the division and had a rested Charles for the playoffs. I think that's an ideal scenario for the Chiefs.
In general, Haley seemes to want to avoid the 20-carry mark. For example, Charles only got 20 carries in close victories over Buffalo and Denver and in a late road win at Seattle (when Charles got most of his carries with the game in doubt). In the losses, well, KC was blown out twice (SD, Den) and Charles only got 14 carries in each of those games, and the week 17 game was a somewhat meaningless game for KC (another 14 carries). In the two close losses, he got 16 carries, and I suppose could have received a few more -- but those were early in the season and you get that sense that Haley was looking not to wear him out.
He seems to be taking a very measured (and perhaps, unusual) approach to preserving Charles. Not killing him early in the year, so he has a lot later. Not overusing him early in games, so he can use him late if the game is close and in doubt. For example, in week 15 against the Rams, Charles got 10 carries in the first three quarters as KC for 46 yards but the Chiefs were in good shape. They were up 17-6 at the start of the 4th, and Thomas Jones got the first 5 carries of the 4th quarter. Now the Rams were a bad team and the Chiefs had a big lead, so can you blame Haley for "resting" Charles?
They gave Charles one carry in the 4th with just under 4 mins to go, and he ran for 80 yards -- but got tackled at the 2. Jones scored the TD, Charles ends the game with 11 carries, and fantasy owners hate Haley. But I'm not sure his usage deserve criticism.
To put it another way, the Chiefs won the division and had a rested Charles for the playoffs. I think that's an ideal scenario for the Chiefs.
Johnny Rock
Footballguy
Can you imagine the level of vitriol the Vikings would endure if AD was getting 14 carries pg? Is the level of pressure on Haley to give the ball to Charles going to increase, hopefully internally? I hope so.
Haley's job is to win games and he should be giving Charles 20+ carries pg. He could get injured on the first carry just as easily as the 300th.
And what's with calling FF "the curse of the NFL?" Seriously? The NFL would not be nearly as popular without FF and his salary would be a lot smaller.
ETA: I don't own Charles in any leagues as we haven't drafted yet.
Haley's job is to win games and he should be giving Charles 20+ carries pg. He could get injured on the first carry just as easily as the 300th.
And what's with calling FF "the curse of the NFL?" Seriously? The NFL would not be nearly as popular without FF and his salary would be a lot smaller.
ETA: I don't own Charles in any leagues as we haven't drafted yet.
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sharptongued1
Footballguy
Then proceeded to not use his, "rested" Charles in the playoffs. Trailing 7-10 at the half, he goes on to get three more carries the rest of the game (already carrying the ball a staggering five times), two in the opening drive of the 2nd half.
And Thomas Jones is a nobody lol... this is exactly what Haley is talking about. No one is saying Charles isnt a stud, they are suggesting that Thomas Jones is also a stud and can do things Charles cant, its not like Jones has more than a year or two left in him.
by_the_sea_wannabe
:sj:
He isn't Mendenhall or AP. He is different and limiting his carries is a smart move on their part. He shouldn't get less than 15 but no reason to kill him either.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
I think I'll repost this in the Charles' spotlight. I just re-read the first two pages of that thread. Somebody over there owes me an apology. Or maybe a pat on the back? 
Otis
Footballguy
This is pretty much meaningless.
I dont think his draft position moves at all, but it should. I have him as the RB 8 in PPR and RB 9 in Standard. Overwhelming amount of Charles fans, I would be stoked to be in the the 6-7 spot since someone in front of me will be taking Charles in every draft.
doowain
Footballguy
Not saying I agree or disagree....but what makes Chris Johnson a 300 carry back and not Charles?
it shouldnt change much, since you shouldnt have been expecting him to get 300+ carries. but ya, top 5 or 6 easily. can see taking mcfadden and cj over him, or not.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
As long as Charles keeps doing what he does, Haley can stick with the game plan.
My real concern is that Bill Muir is as conventional as Charlie Weis was innovative.
My real concern is that Bill Muir is as conventional as Charlie Weis was innovative.
Willy
Footballguy
The coach?
doowain
Footballguy
He's implying that Haley is being smart by not giving Charles 300 carries because he can't hold up to that workload. The coach is irrelevant in that assessment.
I am perfectly happy with how he is being used (yes I am a multiple league Charles owner). Jamal Charles can do plenty of damage with 15-17 touches per game. But if he does not get it at least 15 times Haley is a moron.
I still think Haley is a total D-Bag for an NFL coach.
I still think Haley is a total D-Bag for an NFL coach.
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eakfootball
Footballguy
I expect Charles to get about 3 more carries a game than he did last year. That would put him at 280 carries compared to last years 230. If he can hold up with that than maybe you take the step to a 300+ back in 2012.
Reepicheep
Footballguy
Haley always comes off like he's looking for something to be ornery about.
Anyways not at all worried about Charles. He finished #4 with 44 fewer total touches than anyone in the top 5. Whatever Haley may be saying, it's rather difficult to imagine Charles' touches going DOWN this year.
Anyways not at all worried about Charles. He finished #4 with 44 fewer total touches than anyone in the top 5. Whatever Haley may be saying, it's rather difficult to imagine Charles' touches going DOWN this year.
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I owned Charles in two leagues last year. I was frustrated at times, but I understand what coach is trying to do here. IIRC Charles' work load (both rush and receiving) increased in the second half of the season. I would expect his work load this year to be similar to the second half last season.
The Chiefs have a considerably tougher schedule this year than they did last season. It will be interesting to see how Haley's philosophy regarding Charles' # of carries holds up if KC struggles early on. I think "saving" Charles will become less of an issue than winning games.
greggorymac
Footballguy
There wasn't much opponents of Haley's run philosophy could say last year because they were producing with a winning record. If KC begins to struggle this season, which the majority here feel that they will do to their tougher schedule, it will be interesting to see the public pressure put on Haley as to why they aren't using their top play maker more to help produce more wins.
mjr
Footballguy
Haley was ready to let Charles go for a third rounder a few years ago. Then when Charles started coming on, Haley held him back. Didnt think he was a starter. Didnt think he was durable enough. Charles kept proving him wrong over and over again. Yeah...Haley has a "plan" for Charles: it's to keep telling him he's not good enough to take the next step as Charles goes on to take the next step anyway.
Now, Haley says he's not going to be a feature back in KC. If I were a betting man (which I am), I'd bet that an increase in touches for Charles this season is practically a sure thing....
Now, Haley says he's not going to be a feature back in KC. If I were a betting man (which I am), I'd bet that an increase in touches for Charles this season is practically a sure thing....
LHUCKS
Footballguy
To be honest I would lighten johnsons load too.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
1 Sep 11 BUF @ KC
2 Sep 18 KC @ DET
3 Sep 25 KC @ SD
4 Oct 02 MIN @ KC
5 Oct 09 KC @ IND
6 Bye
7 Oct 23 KC @ OAK
8 Oct 31 SD @ KC
9 Nov 06 MIA @ KC
10 Nov 13 DEN @ KC
11 Nov 21 KC @ NE
12 Nov 27 PIT @ KC
13 Dec 04 KC @ CHI
14 Dec 11 KC @ NYJ
15 Dec 18 GB @ KC
16 Dec 24 OAK @ KC
17 Jan 01 KC @ DEN
Chiefs better be on a roll by week 11.
2 Sep 18 KC @ DET
3 Sep 25 KC @ SD
4 Oct 02 MIN @ KC
5 Oct 09 KC @ IND
6 Bye
7 Oct 23 KC @ OAK
8 Oct 31 SD @ KC
9 Nov 06 MIA @ KC
10 Nov 13 DEN @ KC
11 Nov 21 KC @ NE
12 Nov 27 PIT @ KC
13 Dec 04 KC @ CHI
14 Dec 11 KC @ NYJ
15 Dec 18 GB @ KC
16 Dec 24 OAK @ KC
17 Jan 01 KC @ DEN
Chiefs better be on a roll by week 11.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
This is true
T with T
Footballguy
First and foremost, Haley is an idiot. He lost many of games because of underutilizing Charles... People in the know on the situation all agree, but it seems that the naysayers and haters want to say that Charles will break down with 30 carries per game... NO ONE EVER SAID give him 30... All we are saying is to give him more then 14...... what's the problem with people... where on This planet are some of these posters coming from... He avg 6.4 ypc on 14 carries... All we are saying is give him 17-18 carries.... is the 3-4 more carries a game gonna drop his YPC to 4 or even 5????? NO WAY... he could get 18 carries a game easily which would equate to 288 carries.... Why not a nice median, I think its obviously the way to go.... Tjones was horrible and didn't move chains... At least give him some more catches for gods sake, the guy is a first down machine.... Not to mention Haley doesn't even name JC the starter..... Im done..... I can't argue and stick up for the guy enough... WE already seen CJ3 have 400 touches and seem ok, but now all of a sudden Charles can't get more then 14 carries a game... Get real.
T with T
Footballguy
well that's the problem Todem he doesn't get the ball 15 times a game... He only had 13.8 Avg last year, thats nuts for as good and as Durable as he proved to be over the last two season... Haley is a complete d bag and is underutilizing the best pure runner in the game... pure moron
It's unfortunate when facts get in the way of a good story. What Haley implies and what you're saying is not entirely true. The Chiefs lost 6 games last year. Here are some highlights of Charles's misues in those games.The Raiders beat them week 17, 31-10. Charles had 14 carries for 87 yards and a TD. Thomas Jones had 10 carries for 17 yards. Charles didn't get a carry on the opening drive. The next drive was set up by KC recovering a fumble on Oakland's 17. Charles ran for 5 yards on 1st down. They passed the next 2 downs and settled for a field goal. Charles got 1 carry on the 3rd drive, taking it for 5 yards. On 3rd down, the drive ended after Cassel and McCluster couldn't connect. Charles had 2 carries for 6 yards on the next drive, which again ended with an incomplete pass to McCluster. Haley gives the ball to Charles twice on the next drive for a total of -1 yard. The drive ends in a sack. Charles doesn't get any carries on the next drive. But, of course Haley decides it's a good idea to "conserve" Charles by giving him the ball with :04 left in the half from their own 38. On the opening drive of the 2nd half, Charles gets 2 carries for 52 yards and a TD. Down 17-10 after an Oakland score, Charles gets the ball once (out of 7 plays) on the next drive. On the next drive, maybe Haley figured it out. Charles gets the opening 2 carries and picks up a first down. The next 3 plays are an incomplete pass, a sack, and a Pick-6 (pass of course intended for McCluster). Down 31-10 now with 9 minutes to go, Haley gives Charles 3 carries (the most of any drive). Can someone tell me how he was conserving him in low-leverage situations (i.e., down 21, :04 left in the half) and using him in higher leverage situations?In week 14, the Chargers beat them 31-0. Cassel was hurt and Croyle played. Charles had 10 carries for 40 yards and Thomas Jones had 3 carries. If you're conserving Charles because he can't handle the load, why would you give him 3x as many carries as TJones? Of Charles's 10 carries, 2 came with the score tied, 1 came down 7, 3 came down 14, and 4 came down 21 in the 2nd half. All 3 of Jones's carries came with the score tied or within 7.Week 10, the Broncos beat them 49-29. TJones had 4 carries for 3 yards and Charles had 14 carries for 41 yards. Again, it's curious that they rested Jones not Charles during a game in which they fell behind 35-0 midway through the 2nd quarter.During week 9, they lost a nailbiter to the Raiders 23-20. Charles had 10 carries for 53 yards. Thomas Jones had 19 carries for 32 yards. I think I've made my point here. Week 5, about the only one where Charles wasn't misused. TJones had 100 yards and Charles had 16 carries for 93 yards. The Texans came back from down 10 with 7 or 8 minutes to play to win 35-31. With that said, the Chiefs went 3 and out before Houston's final score, including a short pass, a TJones run, and a deep pass on 3rd and 2. Reminds me of Del Rio's playcalling.Week 4, lost 19-9 to the Colts. Charles went 16/87. Jones went 8/19. Charles had 11 carries in the first half. On the opening drive of the 2nd half, Jones got 3 straight carries and they went 3 and out. Charles had 1 carry for 14 yards on the next 8 play drive, where they settled for a field goal. He of course got no carries on the next drive, 1 on the one after, and 0 on the one after that. At this point, they're down 19-9 and he gets 2 carries on the next 12 play drive, picking up a first down on the first and going for a loss on the next. They settle for a 51 yd field goal attempt with 1:12 to go, which they miss.
doowain
Footballguy
Fair enough, but what YOU would do and what THEY have proven they can handle (at least Johnson) are two different things. I'm assuming you are implying that JC can't carry 300 times in a season because of his build. Considering the nearly identical build of CJ3, I'd say that is unfounded.
Lmao im sorry this quote is too funny gotta get my mind out of the gutter ok now im gonna lighten my johnsons load!!!
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greenheads
Footballguy
Until Haley is gone I don't think anyone one will ever know if JC is a 300 carry back or if he could hold up for that.
Haley seems to be a petty, insecure jerk of a guy, stuck on his on ego and wanting to call the shots (weise (msp) gone is an example). He wants his guys like the little guy from Ole Miss that he drafted (McCluster) to succeed. Haley was quoted recently that McCluster will only be used a s RB this year b/c the lockout prevented KC from teaching McCluster to be a wr. Don't have a link check rotoworld. McCluster will waste some carries this year that Charles could have probably. It hurts his ego to rely on Charles, b/c he didn't draft him. He'd rather do it his way and lose than to turn over the reigns to JC. Could JC be like A Foster? I don't think we'll ever know as long as Haley is his coach.
I don't think Haley saves JC to prevent injuries just look how he was used in the PO game vs. Bal last year.
Speaking as a frustrated JC owner.
Haley seems to be a petty, insecure jerk of a guy, stuck on his on ego and wanting to call the shots (weise (msp) gone is an example). He wants his guys like the little guy from Ole Miss that he drafted (McCluster) to succeed. Haley was quoted recently that McCluster will only be used a s RB this year b/c the lockout prevented KC from teaching McCluster to be a wr. Don't have a link check rotoworld. McCluster will waste some carries this year that Charles could have probably. It hurts his ego to rely on Charles, b/c he didn't draft him. He'd rather do it his way and lose than to turn over the reigns to JC. Could JC be like A Foster? I don't think we'll ever know as long as Haley is his coach.
I don't think Haley saves JC to prevent injuries just look how he was used in the PO game vs. Bal last year.
Speaking as a frustrated JC owner.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Todd Haley doesn't care what you think. In fact, the spiteful SOB is going to underutilize Charles again just to piss you off.
By the time he realizes that he has to use Charles, your team's RB1 production will already be well behind the other elite backs. And if you are able to sneak into the playoffs anyway despite Haley's goal of effing over your fantasy team, you will be rewarded by brutal end of season matchups.
Caveat emptor.
By the time he realizes that he has to use Charles, your team's RB1 production will already be well behind the other elite backs. And if you are able to sneak into the playoffs anyway despite Haley's goal of effing over your fantasy team, you will be rewarded by brutal end of season matchups.
Caveat emptor.
PizzaDeliveryGuy
extra sausage
Do crazy pills come in different flavors?
Hoart Petterson
Footballguy
Haley is a weird dude. On one hand the guy doesn't care about preseason games at all, on the other hand he rips John Harbaugh for scoring at the end of the game last week. Don't understand why anyone associated with the NFL would call gamblers or fantasy players "geeks" either. Without us you wouldn't have that house.
Talking football not fantasy...240 attempts 56 receptions 1375 yds 7 tds314 attempts 26 receptions 1478 yds 9 tds296 attempts 36 receptions 1364 yds 6 tds310 attempts 28 receptions 1336 yds 2 tds290 attempts 36 receptions 1519 yds 15 tds331 attempts 10 receptions 1460 yds 14 tds245 attempts 14 receptions 1018 yds 6 tdsYeah, hes terrible... quote me out of context, still find a way to have no point.
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Otis
Footballguy
He doesn't give a crap what you think, because they'll have that house regardless of what they say, because you're not about to stop watching football.
Hoart Petterson
Footballguy
I never said he'd lose his house or that we'd stop watching but that sport was built on the backs of gamblers. It'd be like Ronald openly mocking a group of obese people who lobby for the return of McRib.'Otis said:
goodoldalky
Footballguy
The numbers don't say the whole story. If you actually watched the games, watching Jones fall over for 3.5 yards a carry was painful. Honestly, I'm stunned he ran for 890 yards. It's only because he got a ton of carries, though. Among all backs who got at least 200 carries last year (20 of them), Jones was tied for second to last in YPC.Haley was saved by Charles and a pee-wee schedule last year. If he gives the rock to Jones 245 times this year, he'll be looking for a job.'shortbow said:
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I did watch the games, short yardage work rarely translates into large gains since the opposing teams know what hes doing all the time. Doesnt mean their going to stop using him. Line Charles up 3rd and 3, run him up the middle, he will have less ypc then Thomas, barring the occasional bounce out and break off a huge gain. Charles isnt a bruiser, why would the Chiefs use him as one when they have Thomas Jones?
PizzaDeliveryGuy
extra sausage
Well then, if he can find the fountain of youth and the Jets Oline, maybe he can improve upon his 3.7 YPC that he stumbled to just last year. Or you can keep quoting stats from the past with different teams that really have no relevance with the 32 year old "stud". Outside of sponging up time to keep Charles fresh, Jones has no business on the field.'shortbow said:
I'm in a 1QB, 2RB, 2WR, 1TE, 1K, 1Def league and we get to keep one player. I have the over all #1 pick this year and it will be hard for me to keep Charles. I had Charles last year and it's very frustrating having a stud on your team that gets 13 touches a game! In my opinion if your first round pick is a RB, that RB should get 18 - 20 touches a game. I cringed last year when watching Charles going into the 4th quarter and he barely had 10 touches!
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