PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I think you need to think this through. The studs that you would draft before Charles are all going to be kept.
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Haley on Jamaal Charles' Rushing Workload (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Touchdown There
- Start date
LOL, that was a good one....arguably the worst argument. cant wait till he gets fired
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
We'll see how things go in the post-Weis era.
BigGDan
Footballguy
Ignore what Haley did in Arizona. Just look at what he's done with KC. His offense produced a top 5 RB and WR last season.
Weis? New England proved - and Weis at ND verified - who the brains behind that success was. I suspect Haley will do the same. I'd love to have Haley as a HC here in Chicago. You KC fans are crazy to hate on Haley.
Weis? New England proved - and Weis at ND verified - who the brains behind that success was. I suspect Haley will do the same. I'd love to have Haley as a HC here in Chicago. You KC fans are crazy to hate on Haley.
If Haley continues to use Jones and McCluster as much as last year, and call back-to-back passing plays on 2nd down with 2 yards to go, that schedule will prove he's nowhere close to as smart as you think he is.I believe he was the beneficiary of a good offensive line, a cupcake schedule, Charlie Weis, Dwayne Bowe, and Jamaal Charles. I'm happy to be proven wrong but I think he's too arrogant for his own good and wants to do it "his way" with "his players" in spite of better options.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
This is completely untrue. Thomas Jones was not primarily a short yardage back. In fact, of his 245 carries 180 of them were on 1st or 2nd down with more than 6 yards to go - and he was *horrible*. Jamaal Charles is better than him on just about every single split you can think of. Just go look at the splits on ESPN it is night and day difference between the two. Jones' low YPC wasn't because defenses knew what was coming - it was because he wasn't any good last year.
That's not an argument - or even a point - it's just an appeal to authority. I'm guessing you thought your high school principal was the coolest person ever. 
Todd "Psycho" Haley exemplfies the sorry state of NFL coaching. This glorified gym teacher has the most explosive offensive weapon in the league, yet his "strategy" is to minimize his usage. Charles is not tiny- as someone has noted, why are comparably sized backs like CJ and Rice considered able to handle a huge workload, while Charles is not? Haley was incredibly lucky last season, and it's unlikely that he can repeat his good fortune, especially while sticking to his stubborn, irrational game plan.
Haley almost destroyed Dwayne Bowe when he first arrived in KC, benching him and constantly berating him. Bowe had a wasted third season because of this, but fortunately his talent did rise to the surface last year. Charles has even more ability, and despite Haley's inane restrictions upon him, still manages to surpass the production of backs who are given far more touches.
A real offensive "wizard" would immediately recognize the kind of player he had in Charles, and would mold the offense around him. That Haley would still, at this stage, publicly proclaim that he is going to continue to hold Charles back in favor of 35 year old, washed up Thomas Jones, is patently unbelievable.
However, as has been stated here, as long as the team is successful, the answer to our complaints will be, "It's working- no one cares about your fantasy team." Let's just see if they keep winning.
Haley almost destroyed Dwayne Bowe when he first arrived in KC, benching him and constantly berating him. Bowe had a wasted third season because of this, but fortunately his talent did rise to the surface last year. Charles has even more ability, and despite Haley's inane restrictions upon him, still manages to surpass the production of backs who are given far more touches.
A real offensive "wizard" would immediately recognize the kind of player he had in Charles, and would mold the offense around him. That Haley would still, at this stage, publicly proclaim that he is going to continue to hold Charles back in favor of 35 year old, washed up Thomas Jones, is patently unbelievable.
However, as has been stated here, as long as the team is successful, the answer to our complaints will be, "It's working- no one cares about your fantasy team." Let's just see if they keep winning.
rocketsauce
Footballguy
They won't keep winning - not this year. Schedule is just too tough. But Haley will continue to hold Charles back regardless of record, score, or situation (unless Thomas Jones completely breaks down -- but honestly you'll just see more McCluster then too.)
Haley is an #######, but he found a system that works. In a league where coaches get fired for going 14-2 and losing one playoff game, if you find a system that works, and satisfies your owners and fans (NOT fantasy football fans, FOOTBALL fans) then you stick with it until you have a reason to change it.
He won't give Charles 300 carries even when they're not going to playoffs, because he's still thinking about the future, and when the schedule is flipped around next year, he'll want a healthy and fresh Charles to do it all again.
The writing is on the wall, there is no secret about Charles. Yet the threads will return once the season begins and people are screaming about Haley & Thomas Jones (and McCluster now too -- gonna see significant 3rd downs out of the backfield.) Charles' potential is sexy enough to warrant a top 5 draft pick, but he's the biggest risk in the 1st round after Vick.
Oh, and the only thing that "rose to the surface" for Bowe was the easiest Pass Schedule in modern NFL History. You want a better indication of his abilities and "talent", look at his Playoff game log instead.
Haley is an #######, but he found a system that works. In a league where coaches get fired for going 14-2 and losing one playoff game, if you find a system that works, and satisfies your owners and fans (NOT fantasy football fans, FOOTBALL fans) then you stick with it until you have a reason to change it.
He won't give Charles 300 carries even when they're not going to playoffs, because he's still thinking about the future, and when the schedule is flipped around next year, he'll want a healthy and fresh Charles to do it all again.
The writing is on the wall, there is no secret about Charles. Yet the threads will return once the season begins and people are screaming about Haley & Thomas Jones (and McCluster now too -- gonna see significant 3rd downs out of the backfield.) Charles' potential is sexy enough to warrant a top 5 draft pick, but he's the biggest risk in the 1st round after Vick.
Oh, and the only thing that "rose to the surface" for Bowe was the easiest Pass Schedule in modern NFL History. You want a better indication of his abilities and "talent", look at his Playoff game log instead.
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Tanner9919
Footballguy
Coach Haley. TJ. McCluster.Johnson has no credible RB behind him pushing for carries..Ringer is no TJ..and Haley seemingly loves RBBC
Touchdown There
Footballguy
The odds are more likely that the Chiefs stink and Haley will be fighting for his job. If he irritates Chiefs management like he does his players, other head coaches, and groups of fans (fantasy or not) he will be at the end of the road as a head coach. I just read that current odds have the Chiefs at 5 to 1 to win the division again. Good luck Haley.
doowain
Footballguy
I think we are arguing two different things.I felt LHUCKS was implying that JC, the player, is not a 300 carry back, not taking into account JC's situation. Saying "Haley is being really smart here" and then stating that JC "isn't a 300 carry back", leads me to believe that LHUCKS feels that JC can't stand up to that workload. That seems to be the consensus with folks who don't think he can do it. That's why I asked what I did. If Chris Johnson, who has a very similar body type, can withstand 400 touches, why can't Charles?I could be reading it wrong though, as he hasn't answered my question.Coach Haley. TJ. McCluster.Johnson has no credible RB behind him pushing for carries..Ringer is no TJ..and Haley seemingly loves RBBC
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Here is the thing:
How often can you say that Haley using Jones too much and Charles not enough causes them to lose games? They went 10-6 last year, and here is how they did in those 6 losses:
19-9 loss to the Colts:
Charles 16-87-0 (3-14-0 receiving)
Jones 8-19-0
Cassel 16 for 29 for 156 yards
I'd blame this loss on the inept passing game. The defense played well enough to win, and Charles got twice as many carries as Jones, but the passing game failed them. I remember Bowe dropping a TD in the end zone in the 4th quarter that would have given them the lead. Plus, Jones had carried the ball 41 times for 178 yards in their two previous games (both wins), so him getting 8 carries this game was no crime or slight against Charles.
35-31 loss to the Texans:
Charles 16-93-0 (4-24-0 receiving)
Jones 19-100-1 (1-10-0 receiving)
Cassel 20 for 29 for 301 yards and 3 TDs
The defense blew this game, plain and simple. Both Charles and Jones were very effective.
23-20 OT loss to the Raiders:
Charles 10-53-0 (5-47-0 receiving)
Jones 19-32-0
Cassel 20 for 35 for 216 yards and 2 TDs and I INT
This is probably the one game you can say that Jones got too many carries and Charles didn't get enough arguably cost them the game.
49-29 loss to the Broncos:
Charles 14-41-0 (5-80-1 receiving)
Jones 4-3-0 (1-19-0 receiving)
Cassel 33 for 53 for 469 yards and 4 TDs
This is a game where the stats are completely misleading. Most of KC's positive offense came after they had fallen behind 35-0 in the 2nd quarter. The defense is 100% to blame for this loss.
31-0 loss to the Chargers:
Charles 10-40-0 (2-9-0 receiving)
Jones 3-1-0
Cassel did not play, and Brodie Croyle was utterly useless in relief.
Charles got 4 times as much touches as Jones, so they tried to depend on him without their starting QB, but they fell behind and all but gave up.
31-10 loss to the Raiders:
Charles 14-87-1 (2-13-0 receiving)
Jones 10-17-0
Cassel 11 for 33 for 115 yards 2 INTs
Cassel was terrible, and this looked like a typical case of a playoff team tanking in week 17 when they had nothing to gain by winning.
So, one game. One game you could say they lost because Jones touched the ball too much and Charles not enough.
I know some will say Charles didn't touch the ball enough in the second half of the playoff loss to the Ravens, but after trailing only 10-7 at the half, several turnovers put them in a 23-7 hole in the 3rd quarter and there was no catching up. Jones barely touched the ball either in the second half (he only had 5 carries for the game).
How often can you say that Haley using Jones too much and Charles not enough causes them to lose games? They went 10-6 last year, and here is how they did in those 6 losses:
19-9 loss to the Colts:
Charles 16-87-0 (3-14-0 receiving)
Jones 8-19-0
Cassel 16 for 29 for 156 yards
I'd blame this loss on the inept passing game. The defense played well enough to win, and Charles got twice as many carries as Jones, but the passing game failed them. I remember Bowe dropping a TD in the end zone in the 4th quarter that would have given them the lead. Plus, Jones had carried the ball 41 times for 178 yards in their two previous games (both wins), so him getting 8 carries this game was no crime or slight against Charles.
35-31 loss to the Texans:
Charles 16-93-0 (4-24-0 receiving)
Jones 19-100-1 (1-10-0 receiving)
Cassel 20 for 29 for 301 yards and 3 TDs
The defense blew this game, plain and simple. Both Charles and Jones were very effective.
23-20 OT loss to the Raiders:
Charles 10-53-0 (5-47-0 receiving)
Jones 19-32-0
Cassel 20 for 35 for 216 yards and 2 TDs and I INT
This is probably the one game you can say that Jones got too many carries and Charles didn't get enough arguably cost them the game.
49-29 loss to the Broncos:
Charles 14-41-0 (5-80-1 receiving)
Jones 4-3-0 (1-19-0 receiving)
Cassel 33 for 53 for 469 yards and 4 TDs
This is a game where the stats are completely misleading. Most of KC's positive offense came after they had fallen behind 35-0 in the 2nd quarter. The defense is 100% to blame for this loss.
31-0 loss to the Chargers:
Charles 10-40-0 (2-9-0 receiving)
Jones 3-1-0
Cassel did not play, and Brodie Croyle was utterly useless in relief.
Charles got 4 times as much touches as Jones, so they tried to depend on him without their starting QB, but they fell behind and all but gave up.
31-10 loss to the Raiders:
Charles 14-87-1 (2-13-0 receiving)
Jones 10-17-0
Cassel 11 for 33 for 115 yards 2 INTs
Cassel was terrible, and this looked like a typical case of a playoff team tanking in week 17 when they had nothing to gain by winning.
So, one game. One game you could say they lost because Jones touched the ball too much and Charles not enough.
I know some will say Charles didn't touch the ball enough in the second half of the playoff loss to the Ravens, but after trailing only 10-7 at the half, several turnovers put them in a 23-7 hole in the 3rd quarter and there was no catching up. Jones barely touched the ball either in the second half (he only had 5 carries for the game).
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sn0mm1s
Footballguy
The final box score isn't really indicative of Charles' usage pattern early in the game. For much of last season, handing off to Jones wasn't much better than a kneel down. Haley liked using Jones early and in close games - which was basically a drive killer.Edit: I don't know how many games that cost them. I thought the playoff game was one of them as was the Raiders game. Haley seemed to refuse to acknowledge that his only effective weapon was Charles. I also thought that several of the games were much closer than they should've been (meaning the Chiefs could have lost just as easily as won based on the drive killing ability of Jones).'Ghost Rider said:
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LHUCKS
Footballguy
JC probably can shoulder a 300 carry workload, but that's not the question.The question is whether it's smart for the chiefs to give him a 300 carry regular season workload.These are two very different things.Fantasy Geeks want to see JC get 300 carries because they play the extrapolation game and want their dynasty RB#1 to bring them fantasy glory.Haley's objective is to make sure that Charles is the electric playmaker that he is for the forseeable future because that helps him win games which is his ultimate objective. Running Charles into the ground, particulary when it doesn't help decide the outcome of the game, is a stupid thing to do.I often watch Titans games and wonder why they continue to feed Chris Johnson the ball when the game is decided...if I were the Titans I would only play Johnson when the game was in question.These playmakers are pure gold for their franchises...protecting their gold is important to them. Haley gets this, fantasy geeks don't.P.S. I agree that Haley is a tool...I hated his personality/antics when he was with AZ.'doowain said:
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Wild Young Billy
A Crazy Cat
I am afraid that Charles will be the best available player at #6 overall tomorrow. For some reason I don't think I can take him there. Their schedule and 15 carries/game scares me.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Again this doesn't seem to be true of Haley's playcalling.Here are some splits:4TH QTR, +/-7 PTSJones - 26 carries 75 yardsCharles - 24 carries 169 yardsSo, in close games late Haley was more likely to give the ball to Jones for less than 3 yards per carry rather than Charles who averages 7 YPC. This the is time where you most want to sustain a drive - either to keep a lead or score a TD.VICTORY FINAL MARGIN 0-7Jones - 101 for 384Charles - 91 for 580Again, in an ultimately close game Jones is getting more of the carries despite being dwarfed in production. This doesn't make sense at all. It is hard to tell if the game is close because Jones is getting carries (and killing drives) or if Jones is getting carries because the game is close - either way he shouldn't be getting the ball.QUARTER = 1 (when you are trying to establish your offense)Jones - 64 for 281Charles - 43 for 327Again, if you are trying to win. Why not try to start off fast and score early. Build up a lead and then rest Charles later. Plenty of other splits don't make sense at all when you look at the huge gap in production between the two players.
Irish Chaos
Footballguy
While I applaud the research you've done and statistics you've uncovered, this method makes little to no sense. You can not be results oriented like that and say because Tj got 10 carries for just 17 yards, they ran him too much as opposed to when he had 19 for 100 and a td. If you're argument was that TJ did better early in the season and fell apart late I'd buy it. But on a per game basis, looking at a loss and then saying in hindsight they should not have given him the ball because he had 10 for 17yrds just doesn't make sense to me.'Ghost Rider said:
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LHUCKS
Footballguy
I already agreed that Charles was misused situationally. I'm speaking strictly to overall workload.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I've been very vocal about Weis and the impact his departure will have. To suggest that Haleys decisions are unassailable because he's an NFL head coach is absurd, by transitive proprerty no NFL coach would be worthy of criticism, and if you lived through Rich Kotite, you know that's not true. 
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