Hall of Fame - Class of 2008 (1 Viewer)

[Norseman]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7391884...P&GT1=10539

CANTON, Ohio (AP) - Cornerback Darrell Green and receivers Cris Carter and Herman Moore were among 124 modern-era players, coaches, and contributors on the preliminary list of nominees for the Pro Football Hall of Fames Class of 2008.

Other first-year eligibles are running back Eric Metcalf; offensive tackles Tony Boselli, Lomas Brown and Richmond Webb; and linebackers Levon Kirkland and Hardy Nickerson.

Previously, the senior committee nominated Marshall Goldberg and Emmitt Thomas. Goldberg, a multipurpose back, was a two-way star with the Chicago Cardinals from 1939-1943 and following World War II from 1946-48. Thomas, an all-league cornerback, starred for 13 seasons (1966-1978) for the Kansas City Chiefs.

Voters will choose 25 candidates from that group as semifinalists; that list will be announced late in November. From there, the list will be pared to 15 finalists, who will be considered at the selection committee's meetings during Super Bowl week.

At least four and no more than seven nominees will be elected on the day before the Super Bowl.

To be considered for Hall of Fame election, a player or coach must have been retired at least five years. A contributor - someone who has made outstanding career contributions to pro football in capacities other than playing or coaching - may still be active in his pro football career.

 

[Norseman]

Not the strongest class, but Green and Carter should be locks to make it in the first time.

 

[dgreen]

Last year's finalists still remaining: Fred Dean, Richard Dent, Russ Grimm, Ray Guy, Bob Kuechenberg, Art Monk, Andre Reed, Paul Tagliabue, Derrick Thomas, Andre Tippett, and Gary Zimmerman.

This might be Monk's best chance.

We Skins fans would be in Heaven if Monk, Green, and Grimm were inducted in the same year. I know it won't happen, but that would be cool.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Green and Carter - mortal locks

Metcalf - no way

Boselli - was good for a while but not HOF material

Moore - again, was good for a while. But 4 seasons does not a HOF-er make. Monk is light years ahead of Moore in the pecking order.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

I'd like to see Lomas Brown get in there. He was a heck of a football player for quite awhile. I don't know if he was that big of a name but he was certainly the Lions best offensive lineman for years, just ask Barry.

Agreed no way Herman Moore should get in there, I'm surprised to read his name. Art Monk should get in way before him.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Green is in

other than that this class is meh.

Does anyone think that chris carters personal issues keep him out a year or two?

 

[wildbill]

Does anyone think that chris carters personal issues keep him out a year or two?

What are Chris Carter's personal issues?

 

[Andy Herron]

Art Monk is long overdue, and it is a travesty that he is not already in. Same goes for Drew Pearson.

Green and Carter should go in for sure. The only two I see as locks this time around.

 

[perry147]

Does anyone think that chris carters personal issues keep him out a year or two?

What are Chris Carter's personal issues?

Are you fishing?Chris Carter's alcohol and drug abuse was the reason Ryan cut him.

 

[Sidewinder16]

Art Monk is long overdue, and it is a travesty that he is not already in. Same goes for Drew Pearson.

Green and Carter should go in for sure. The only two I see as locks this time around.

I think Pearson, Cliff Branch and Harold Carmichael all deserve serious consideration. Unfortunately they'll all probably end up as seniors selections, at best.

 

[shadyridr]

I think Lomas Brown might have a chance. Am I nuts?

 

[ack34]

Grimm, Guy, Green, Monk, Thomas.

That's who would get my vote this year.

 

[Sidewinder16]

Does anyone think that chris carters personal issues keep him out a year or two?

What are Chris Carter's personal issues?

Are you fishing?Chris Carter's alcohol and drug abuse was the reason Ryan cut him.

He was in Philly for only the first 3 of his 16 seasons. He obviously cleaned up at some point and had a stellar career.He's still (although not for long) 2nd only to Rice in career receptions and TD receptions.

 

[Utter Chaos]

I know he's only a punter but Ray Guy should be in the HOF.

 

[dgreen]

Green is in

I hope so, but I've heard rumors that people have already started the "Green just played for a long time and was never great" crap.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Green is in

I hope so, but I've heard rumors that people have already started the "Green just played for a long time and was never great" crap.

He was never a flashy, loud-mouthed, self promotor. He was an unbelievably quick and fast and rangy corner who rarely lost his man, always was willing to help in run support, and who was a very effective returner when called upon. Dude can play on my team along with Herb Adderly, Lem Barney, and Paul Krause. I'll leave the Primadonnas for others.

 

[dornado]

Why can't Richard Dent get any love? 137.5 career sacks, Super Bowl MVP, 4 time pro-bowler...

 

[428143]

Why can't Richard Dent get any love? 137.5 career sacks, Super Bowl MVP, 4 time pro-bowler...

I thought this was a no-brainer last year...

 

[twitch]

I can see the following -

Art Monk - he's waited long enough.

Cris Carter - I think he's a 1st ballot lock. Nearly the WR equivalent of Marino.

Charles Haley - 5 rings. Should get in now. If he doesnt, he will. And he wont this year because he was flat out crazy and scared people.

Darrell Green - owns 2 rings I think, maybe 3?? I think 2. But he was a shut down CB, fastest guy in the league in his prime, and exclusively a 'Skin.

Tagliabue - he's gonna get in soon. probably this year.

Ray Guy - if Tagliabue or Haley dont get the votes, it may finally be Guy's year.

Tom Brady - early write in vote. This guy needs to go straight into the Hall. TODAY.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Green is in

I hope so, but I've heard rumors that people have already started the "Green just played for a long time and was never great" crap.

Anyone who can play DB for 15 years should be in the Hall Of Fame.Now imagine that someone did it for twenty years. Mortal lock.

 

[CalBear]

I know he's only a punter but Ray Guy should be in the HOF.

Based on what? The fact that he led the NFL in punting a whopping 3 times in a 14-year career? 42.4 yard average, 33.8 yard average net? 42.4 yard average would have put him as the #26 punter last year; 33.8 yard net would have put him as #32. And there are a ton of contemporaries with equivalent or better punting stats (Dave Jennings, Pat McInally, John James, Jerrell Wilson, to name a few).Here's a stat for you: Danny White has a better career punting net average than Ray Guy.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Darrell Green - owns 2 rings I think, maybe 3?? I think 2. But he was a shut down CB, fastest guy in the league in his prime, and exclusively a 'Skin.

Played in 3 Super Bowls, won 2.Made 7 Pro Bowls, his last one coming when he was just a few days shy of 38 years old.

 

[Sidewinder16]

I know he's only a punter but Ray Guy should be in the HOF.

Based on what? The fact that he led the NFL in punting a whopping 3 times in a 14-year career? 42.4 yard average, 33.8 yard average net? 42.4 yard average would have put him as the #26 punter last year; 33.8 yard net would have put him as #32. And there are a ton of contemporaries with equivalent or better punting stats (Dave Jennings, Pat McInally, John James, Jerrell Wilson, to name a few).Here's a stat for you: Danny White has a better career punting net average than Ray Guy.

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Top Number Generators. Numbers only tell a part of the story (especially for punters).He was a 7 time Pro Bowler, has 3 Super Bowl rings and was selected (by Hall of Fame voters) to the NFL 1970s All-Decade Team and the NFL's 75th Anniversary Team. Find me a player or coach from Guy's playing time that would rather have one of his contemporaries over him and I'll start listening to why he shouldn't be in.

 

[3nOut]

Why can't Richard Dent get any love? 137.5 career sacks, Super Bowl MVP, 4 time pro-bowler...

I thought this was a no-brainer last year...

I thought so too. The guy was incredible and doesn't get enough credit compared to the other Mosters on that D he played on. He was my favorite Bear on that defense.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Tasker baby!

 

[Deranged Hermit]

IMO, here's the locks to get in: Green, Tags, Dent, Grimm (Dent and Grimm should have been in last year)

Should probably make it: Carter and Monk

Bubble: Guy

 

[Anthony Borbely]

I know he's only a punter but Ray Guy should be in the HOF.

Based on what? The fact that he led the NFL in punting a whopping 3 times in a 14-year career? 42.4 yard average, 33.8 yard average net? 42.4 yard average would have put him as the #26 punter last year; 33.8 yard net would have put him as #32. And there are a ton of contemporaries with equivalent or better punting stats (Dave Jennings, Pat McInally, John James, Jerrell Wilson, to name a few).Here's a stat for you: Danny White has a better career punting net average than Ray Guy.

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Top Number Generators. Numbers only tell a part of the story (especially for punters).He was a 7 time Pro Bowler, has 3 Super Bowl rings and was selected (by Hall of Fame voters) to the NFL 1970s All-Decade Team and the NFL's 75th Anniversary Team. Find me a player or coach from Guy's playing time that would rather have one of his contemporaries over him and I'll start listening to why he shouldn't be in.

 

[Sidewinder16]

IMO, here's the locks to get in: Green, Tags, Dent, Grimm (Dent and Grimm should have been in last year)Should probably make it: Carter and MonkBubble: Guy

Interested to hear why Carter is a "probably" and not a lock, in your eyes.

 

[dgreen]

Darrell Green - owns 2 rings I think, maybe 3?? I think 2. But he was a shut down CB, fastest guy in the league in his prime, and exclusively a 'Skin.

Played in 3 Super Bowls, won 2.Made 7 Pro Bowls, his last one coming when he was just a few days shy of 38 years old.

Had at least one INT in 19 straight seasons (did not get an INT in his final season).Had 54 career INTs, returning 6 for TDs. Added 2 more TDs from FR.CB on 1990s All Decade Team.All Pro 3 times.Anyone know where to find playoff stats for defensive players?

 

[dgreen]

Anyone know where to find playoff stats for defensive players?

Going through his game logs on nfl.com, he played in 18 postseason games. In those games, he had 6 INT for 133 yards and 2 TDs.

 

[mad sweeney]

Green is inother than that this class is meh.Does anyone think that chris carters personal issues keep him out a year or two?

No more than Irvin's.I am pulling for Cortez the King and/or Easley. Long shot for Cortez on a first ballot, but he has the credentials. MFL's All 90s Team and NFL DPOY on a 2-14 team, and voted All Pro 5 times. Of course the team itself vited Easley their team DPOY so a good argument for him too, he also posted his own NFL DPOY. It's high time the Hawks have more than Senator Largent in there.

 

[MarshallRob]

I know he's only a punter but Ray Guy should be in the HOF.

Based on what? The fact that he led the NFL in punting a whopping 3 times in a 14-year career? 42.4 yard average, 33.8 yard average net? 42.4 yard average would have put him as the #26 punter last year; 33.8 yard net would have put him as #32. And there are a ton of contemporaries with equivalent or better punting stats (Dave Jennings, Pat McInally, John James, Jerrell Wilson, to name a few).Here's a stat for you: Danny White has a better career punting net average than Ray Guy.

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Top Number Generators. Numbers only tell a part of the story (especially for punters).He was a 7 time Pro Bowler, has 3 Super Bowl rings and was selected (by Hall of Fame voters) to the NFL 1970s All-Decade Team and the NFL's 75th Anniversary Team. Find me a player or coach from Guy's playing time that would rather have one of his contemporaries over him and I'll start listening to why he shouldn't be in.

In Guy's day, the only available punting statistics were gross average. That was it. Nobody really knew how good he or anybody else was. He certainly had the rep of a great punter, probably helped by the fact that his coach went on to become the most popular NFL broadcaster ever and kept talking about how Guy once hit the roof of the Superdome. I assumed the writers and announcers back then must have known what they were talking about when they said how great Guy was and voting him various punting honors. But now, thanks to ESPN's football encyclopedia and other sources we have detailed stats on punters, things like number of punts downed inside the 20, touchbacks, and return average against. Now we can see the whole picture and Guy just doesn't measure up as a truly great punter.His Super Bowl rings are neither here nor there unless you want to cite to some critical punt Guy made that was the difference in one of those Super Bowl seasons.Plenty of Guy's teammates (plus Madden) are in the Hall so I don't buy any anti-Al Davis conspiracy theory.

 

[Sinrman]

I think lately a lot of guys have been getting in, and future classes look pretty strong. I have a feeling this might be a year where only 2-3 may make it in. Green and probably Carter. Maybe one more...

 

[ffldrew]

Steve Atwater

From Wikipedia

The case for Atwater rests on the basis of eight Pro Bowls, two Vince Lombardi Trophies, an average of nearly 130 total tackles per season from the safety position over an 11 year career, selection to the NFL's All-Decade team for the 1990s, a Denver Broncos Ring of Fame inductee with only 5 missed games over his Bronco career, Atwater's reputation as a fierce hitter, his character and leadership role as Captain on the Broncos defense, as well as his contributions during Super Bowl XXXII.

And of course I think Christian Okoye has a vote as well - so Atwater should be a lock.

Since 1976 the Broncos have one of the best records in the NFL (256-163), 6 SB apperances and yet have only 1 player in the Hall - John Elway. I'm not sure how that happens certainly there were other players during those years who get in.

ETA - that Bronco record is from 1976-2002 - I excluded last 5 as they don't pertain to HOF.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Complete list.

(x-last year's 17 finalists list)

(y-first year of eligibility)

QUARTERBACKS –

Ken Anderson

Randall Cunningham

Boomer Esiason

Jim Plunkett

Phil Simms

Ken Stabler

Joe Theismann

Danny White

Doug Williams.

RUNNING BACKS - Ottis Anderson

Roger Craig

Terrell Davis

Herschel Walker

Ricky Watters

y-Eric Metcalf (also WR/KR/PR).

WIDE RECEIVERS –

Cliff Branch

Harold Carmichael

Dwight Clark

Gary Clark

Isaac Curtis

Henry Ellard

Roy Green

x-Art Monk

Drew Pearson

x-Andre Reed

y-Cris Carter

y-Herman Moore.

TIGHT ENDS –

Mark Bavaro

Todd Christensen

Ben Coates

Russ Francis

Brent Jones

Jay Novacek.

OFFENSIVE LINEMEN –

Jim Covert (T)

Dermontti Dawson ©

x-Russ Grimm (G)

Jay Hilgenberg ©

Kent Hill (G/T)

Chris Hinton (G/T)

Kent Hull ©

Joe Jacoby (T)

Mike Kenn (T)

x-Bob Kuechenberg (G)

Jim Lachey (T)

Mark May (T/G/C)

Randall McDaniel (G)

Jeff Van Note ©

Steve Wisniewski (G)

x-Gary Zimmerman (T)

y-Tony Boselli (T)

y-Lomas Brown (T)

y-Richmond Webb (T).

DEFENSIVE LINEMEN –

Ray Childress (DT/DE)

x-Fred Dean (DE)

x-Richard Dent (DE)

Chris Doleman (DE/LB)

Jacob Green (DE)

Charles Haley (DE/LB)

Jim Jeffcoat (DE)

Ed "Too Tall'' Jones (DE)

Cortez Kennedy (DT)

Joe Klecko (DE/DT/NT)

Fred Smerlas (NT).

LINEBACKERS –

Cornelius Bennett

Matt Blair

Robert Brazile

Randy Gradishar

Kevin Greene (LB/DE)

Ken Harvey

Rickey Jackson

Wilber Marshall

Clay Matthews

Karl Mecklenburg

Sam Mills

Pat Swilling

Darryl Talley

x-Derrick Thomas

x-Andre Tippett

y-Levon Kirkland

y-Hardy Nickerson.

DEFENSIVE BACKS –

Eric Allen (CB)

Steve Atwater (S)

Joey Browner (S)

LeRoy Butler (S)

Raymond Clayborn (CB)

Nolan Cromwell (S)

Kenny Easley (S)

Lester Hayes (CB)

Albert Lewis (CB)

Ken Riley (CB)

Donnie Shell (S)

Louis Wright (CB)

y-Darrell Green (CB).

KICKER/PUNTERS –

x-Ray Guy (P)

Nick Lowery (K)

Reggie Roby (P).

SPECIAL TEAMS –

Elbert Shelley (S)

Steve Tasker (WR).

COACHES –

Don Coryell

Tom Flores

Jimmy Johnson

Chuck Knox

Buddy Parker

Clark Shaughnessy

Ernie Zampese.

CONTRIBUTORS –

K.S. "Bud'' Adams Jr.

Gil Brandt

C. O. Brocato

Leo Carlin

Ed DeBartolo Jr.

Pat Haggerty

Bob Harlan

Jerry Jones

Bucko Kilroy

Art McNally

Art Modell

Art Rooney Jr.

Ed Sabol

Steve Sabol

x-Paul Tagliabue

Jim Tunney

Ralph Wilson Jr.

Ron Wolf

George Young

 

[SR388]

Some of you are wondering how certain guys get on the list for the hall. If a player made a pro bowl, they get on the list for HOF consideration.

So even Gus Ferotte will be on the list some day.

I'm rooting for:

D.Green

C.Haley

D.Thomas

G.Zimmerman

I think Monk should already be in, but I'd be shocked if he gets in.

 

[encaitar]

I don't know how anyone can consider Carter anything but a lock for the HOF this year. He had guys like Rich Gannon and WADE WILSON!! throwing the ball to him (Sean Salisbury anyone?). Imagine what kind of reciever he would've been if he had guys like Montana or Young throwing him the ball.

Yeah, being a Vikings fan I'm biased, but watching him play, he made catches people aren't supposed to make. At least 3 times a game he left you with the "what just happened" face. Jerry Rice is the only reciever in the Hall that he can be compared to, and yes he falls short of Rice, but not by that much.

 

[dgreen]

Since 1976 the Broncos have one of the best records in the NFL (256-163), 6 SB apperances and yet have only 1 player in the Hall - John Elway. I'm not sure how that happens certainly there were other players during those years who get in.

The HOF is about individuals. Not groups. Not teams. It's certainly possible to assemble a great team without few great (HOF) players. I'm not saying Elway is or isn't the only deserving Bronco, just that I don't think players should receive many "points" because they were part of a great team.And, this is coming from a Redskins fan. All of those Redskins teams from the 80s currently only have Riggins and Gibbs in the HOF. Green, Monk, and Grimm have shots, but it currently stands that Riggins is the only player right now.

 

[shredhead]

I know he's only a punter but Ray Guy should be in the HOF.

Based on what? The fact that he led the NFL in punting a whopping 3 times in a 14-year career? 42.4 yard average, 33.8 yard average net? 42.4 yard average would have put him as the #26 punter last year; 33.8 yard net would have put him as #32. And there are a ton of contemporaries with equivalent or better punting stats (Dave Jennings, Pat McInally, John James, Jerrell Wilson, to name a few).Here's a stat for you: Danny White has a better career punting net average than Ray Guy.

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Top Number Generators. Numbers only tell a part of the story (especially for punters).He was a 7 time Pro Bowler, has 3 Super Bowl rings and was selected (by Hall of Fame voters) to the NFL 1970s All-Decade Team and the NFL's 75th Anniversary Team. Find me a player or coach from Guy's playing time that would rather have one of his contemporaries over him and I'll start listening to why he shouldn't be in.

In Guy's day, the only available punting statistics were gross average. That was it. Nobody really knew how good he or anybody else was. He certainly had the rep of a great punter, probably helped by the fact that his coach went on to become the most popular NFL broadcaster ever and kept talking about how Guy once hit the roof of the Superdome. I assumed the writers and announcers back then must have known what they were talking about when they said how great Guy was and voting him various punting honors. But now, thanks to ESPN's football encyclopedia and other sources we have detailed stats on punters, things like number of punts downed inside the 20, touchbacks, and return average against. Now we can see the whole picture and Guy just doesn't measure up as a truly great punter.

As a Broncos fan in the '70's, I have to disagree with this. The reason Ray Guy's average doesn't measure up is because he was the king of the coffin corner kick. (A lost art anymore) I remember Guy pinning my Broncos inside the 5 yard line on numerous occasions. I think he was the best punter of his era with out a doubt, and I think he would be one of the top 5 punters today! No stats to back it up, just my memory.

 

[Deranged Hermit]

IMO, here's the locks to get in: Green, Tags, Dent, Grimm (Dent and Grimm should have been in last year)Should probably make it: Carter and MonkBubble: Guy

Interested to hear why Carter is a "probably" and not a lock, in your eyes.

WR seem to generally have to wait a year. Not saying it's right, but it's a reality. I do think he gets in next year.

 

[ffldrew]

Since 1976 the Broncos have one of the best records in the NFL (256-163), 6 SB apperances and yet have only 1 player in the Hall - John Elway. I'm not sure how that happens certainly there were other players during those years who get in.

The HOF is about individuals. Not groups. Not teams. It's certainly possible to assemble a great team without few great (HOF) players. I'm not saying Elway is or isn't the only deserving Bronco, just that I don't think players should receive many "points" because they were part of a great team.And, this is coming from a Redskins fan. All of those Redskins teams from the 80s currently only have Riggins and Gibbs in the HOF. Green, Monk, and Grimm have shots, but it currently stands that Riggins is the only player right now.

Green gets in for sure this year. Riggins should have only gotten in with all of the Hogs at the sametime - they were the Skins.

 

[Jous]

It should be a Greenish HOF this year... Darrell Green AND Kevin Greene need to get in

 

[CalBear]

As a Broncos fan in the '70's, I have to disagree with this. The reason Ray Guy's average doesn't measure up is because he was the king of the coffin corner kick. (A lost art anymore) I remember Guy pinning my Broncos inside the 5 yard line on numerous occasions. I think he was the best punter of his era with out a doubt, and I think he would be one of the top 5 punters today! No stats to back it up, just my memory.

From 1976-1986 (the years where In20 stats are available), Ray Guy had 210 of 838 punts come down inside the 20 (25.1%). That's the same percentage as Rohn Stark (1982-1997), who also had a higher career punting average than Guy. That's just one example I found quickly; I'm sure there are more.Guy belongs in the "Hall Of People Madden Can't Stop Flapping His Lips About", which is a lot larger than the Pro Football Hall Of Fame.

 

[wildbill]

Does anyone think that chris carters personal issues keep him out a year or two?

What are Chris Carter's personal issues?

Are you fishing?Chris Carter's alcohol and drug abuse was the reason Ryan cut him.

Not fishing. All I know about Chris Carter is from his years in Minnesota and his weeks in Miami. I don't even remember him playing for Philadelphia.

 

[Tau837]

I know he's only a punter but Ray Guy should be in the HOF.

Possibly relevant old posts relating to Ray Guy.

Old posts on Ray Guy:

Ray Guy. Ray Guy. Ray Guy.

If you really think a punter should be in the Hall of Fame, what's the case for Ray Guy? He doesn't hold any important punting records nor is he even close. His career punting average is over three yards behind the all-time leader Shane Lechler. So is his net average. I don't think Guy is even in the Top 40 all-time. Are there some specific punts you can point to that helped his team win a title? The only thing I could find was from his Wikipedia entry:

Arguably, his best performance was in Super Bowl XVIII against the Washington Redskins. When the Raiders offense faltered just outside the range of placekicker Chris Bahr, Guy, known for his power, showed a great deal of finesse by booting a 27-yard punt that pinned the Washington Redskins on their own 12-yard line late in the first half. On the very next play, the Raiders' Jack Squirek intercepted Washington quarterback Joe Theismann and returned it for a touchdown that gave them a 21-3 halftime lead.

Is a 27-yard punt to the opponent's 12-yard-line really a classic NFL moment?

I have questioned before why everyone cites Guy in HOF discussions, and no one can really explain. I think a lot of people have just latched onto that as a smart but "clever" opinion on who deserves to be in the HOF but isn't.

And, aside from whether or not Guy is the best punter, is the more fundamental question of whether any punter should be in the HOF. I have gone into this in other posts, but I think the fundamental question that arises is how many significant/impact plays per season any HOF player made... for a typical HOF offensive or defensive player, it is a high number. For a kicker, not so high... which I suspect is why only one true kicker is in the HOF. Same thing for punters, but probably even less impact than kickers. I mean, even kickers can make game winning plays... when was the last time anyone thought a punter made a game winning play?

Otherwise, why stop there? Why not the best punt returner... the best kickoff returner (well, he's probably in--Sayers)... the best at covering kickoffs... the best long snapper... the best at blocking kicks... the best nickelback... etc. IMO the answer is that these players have more limited roles, and do not impact game outcomes to the same extent as typical HOFers, who played most offensive or defensive snaps.

Isn't comparing stats between Guy and Lechler sort of like comparing stats for Favre and Unitas?

There's a lot of info. on Guy's Wikipedia page (as well as other places across the net) that seems to be mysteriously ignored. Guy's leg was plenty strong (he had a career long punt of 74 yards, Madden swears he saw Guy punt a ball from the back of one endzone to the back of the other endzone in practice, he kicked a 61 yard FG in college), but any football fan should know that punting the longest punt possible doesn't make you the best punter. Punts inside the 20, low punt return avg., and number of fair catches are all important to winning the field position battle, of which the punter should be an integral part and an asset. It's possible to be a league leader in punt avg. and net and be a liability in your team's punting game (out kicking your coverage).

Guy is most famous for his hang time (and apparently was a key catalyst for the birth of the term) being able to hang a punt for 6 seconds (a freakin' eternity for a punt), to the point that one of his balls was tested for helium. His bouncing a punt off the Superdome hanging scoreboard is the stuff of legends. He was more than willing to sacrifice distance for hang time/field position when it benefited the team.

He played 14 seasons for a team that was a perennial Super Bowl contender (including playing in and winning 3) and had one losing season (7-9) during his time. His contributions to his team's field position battles, and thus their wins, are pretty well documented. Plenty of people "in the know" (coaches, players, historians) have said that Guy was integral to the success of the Raiders in the '70's and early '80's. I've seen no compelling evidence to disbelieve that.

I understand the general prejudice against punters as football players (and even display it myself at times, although Guy breaks that mold as well, having been a great all around athlete; he was Oaklands 3rd QB for a time, could reportedly throw a football 80 yards, and was drafted multiple times as a pitcher by MLB teams) but I'm firmly in the "Ray Guy belongs in the Hall" camp. IMO, the Hall is for players that had a significant impact on the game in their time (my personal definition of "great"). Guy undoubtedly fills that role.

I'm fine if someone wants to disagree that what Guy did was not Hall-worthy, but I would encourage anyone to read up on what exactly he (or any other player, for that matter) did do before making a final judgement.

Comparing Guy to Lechler is NOT like comparing Unitas to Favre. It's easier to post bigger passing numbers now than it was in Unitas' day. That's a fact. Is it easier to punt better today? I don't see any evidence to conclude that. Lechler, a current player, is the all-time leader in punting average. But the second and third-best guys played in the 1940's and 1960's (Sammy Baugh and Tommy Davis respectively). Why shouldn't Davis get in the Hall instead of Guy? His average is much better, he punted in much tougher conditions (San Francisco), and he also doubled as a very good placekicker. Additionally, though all of Unitas' records have been bettered he's STILL in the top 10 in passing yards and passing TD's over 30 years after he retired. Guy is nowhere near the leaderboard in punting average. Shouldn't the "greatest punter of all time" at least be in the top 20? Ok, average isn't the only stat to consider. Agreed. Let's go through some other stats:

Guy kicked 210 punts inside the 20. They didn't count the stat for his first 3 years so let's be really really generous and bump him up to 300. Jeff Feagles has 456. Sean Landeta has 381. Chris Gardocki has 320.

Guy had 128 touchbacks. Feagles has only 115 in a longer career. Gardocki has 102.

Guy kicked 619 consecutive punts without a block. Gardocki's streak is 1112 punts.

Guy once kicked a 74-yarder. Great, but the record is 98 yards.

Guy led the league in punting 3 times. Impressive but the immortal Yale Lary, Jim Fraser, and Rohn Stark all did the same thing. Jerrel Wilson did it 4 times. Why isn't he in the Hall?

Guy has the reputation of being the best ever. He made a lot of All-Pro teams and the NFL's 75th Anniversary team. Madden tells everyone Guy was the best. But could we see some numbers to prove all those people were right? You say his contributions are "well-documented". Where are these documents?

Finally, I found the following from a 2005 Dr. Z column about hang time:

But once again, for the umpteenth time, Ray Guy appears on the Hall of Fame ballot. His lifetime gross average was an unimpressive 42.4. I got a letter on his behalf from some lobbying agency that tried to cover this number by explaining that he made up for it by pinning the enemy deep with coffin-corner kicks. This is a flat out lie written by someone who probably spells football with a pf. Guy's big weakness was that he didn't go for the edges. He was a middle of the end zone punter, although he had the livest leg in the game and when he caught one it really hung.

At one of our Hall of Fame selectors meetings, Peter King, who had meticulously gone through years of play-by-play sheets, presented the research he had done on what Guy's net would have been, had it been kept in those days. It was in the low 30, mediocre indeed. But every time you get John Madden talking about Guy, whom he had coached in Oakland, he'd mention his hang time, "regularly in the high-5.0 range, sometimes as high as six seconds."

This is, of course, nonsense. Never in history has there been a six-second hanger.

 

[Horrorshow]

We Skins fans would be in Heaven if Monk, Green, and Grimm were inducted in the same year.

For me the biggest Redskin snub isn't Monk. It's Chris Hanburger.

 

[= Ice Man =]

Darrell Green & Cris Carter should get in w/o a question. Both were leaders at their positions for nearly the entirety of their careers. I'm on the fence on Metcalf. He was never a RB, converting to WR early in his career. And, although he had a 104 catch, 1189 yard, 8 TD season (1995), he made his living as a return man, where he was one of the 2 or 3 best of all time. Neither Art Monk nor Herman Moore belong in the Hall. Both had some great season, but having 3 or 4 great season doesn't make you a Hall of Famer. Monk played 16 seasons, but was in the top 10 in receptions only 4 times, and finished in the top 10 in receiving yards only 3 times. He never really scored TDs, though it was common during his era for half a dozen to a dozen WRs to score 10+ TDs a season. He never eclipsed 8. Moore, though not as popular amongst FBG'ers, has more of a case than Monk IMO. He finished in the top 10 for receptions, yards & TDs more often than Monk, despite playing 5 fewer seasons.

Ray Guy needs to be in the Hall IMO. The guy was a beast at his position. He's the benchmark many are still measured against. Derrick Thomas should be in all. He was flat out awesome when he was on the field for KC. Andre Reed should get a pass into the Hall too. He had 12 good to great seasons for the Bills and was far more productive on a year by year basis than Monk or Moore. I wasn't around in the old days, so I can't comment on Dent & those other guys.

 

[= Ice Man =]

Some of you are wondering how certain guys get on the list for the hall. If a player made a pro bowl, they get on the list for HOF consideration. So even Gus Ferotte will be on the list some day.I'm rooting for.GreenC.HaleyD.ThomasG.ZimmermanI think Monk should already be in, but I'd be shocked if he gets in.

I'd be shocked if Monk actually got in. Yes, he had longevity. But, the guy was nothing special for the majority of his career. In 16 freaking seasons he broke 900 yards only 6 times!!! He had more than 6 TDs only 3 times in his "illustrious" career. Based on the other WRs he competed against he only had 3 great seasons. THREE!!! He's only a 3 time Pro Bowler. THREE!!! In his 16 seasons, he was the leading WR on his team only only 4 times. FOUR!!! During his 14 seasons w/ the Redskins, he led the team in receiving 4 times, Gary Clark led them 6 times, Ricky Sanders 2 times, & Charlie freaking Brown 2 times. Tell me please how the heck this guy even deserves to be on the ballot. He wasn't even the best WR on his team!!!During his 16 year career, he was vastly outplayed by the following WRs who took the field at least half of the same years he played: Jerry Rice, Michael Irvin, Gary Clark, Drew Hill, Steve Largent, James Lofton, Henry Ellard, & Sterling Sharpe. He was somewhat outplayed my Mark Clayton, Anthony Miller & Andre Rison. THAT....my friend.....is not the makings of a Hall of Famer!

 

[Bri]

Boselli - was good for a while but not HOF material

Why not?(sincere Q)

 

[Bri]

No Hardy love?