sspunisher
Footballguy
The man love for BB is a bit annoying. Don't get me wrong, it's a good move, I won't argue it. But check this out:
Belichick's Biggest Triumph
Belichick's Biggest Triumph
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Haynesworth: "Belichick Does It Again" (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter sspunisher
- Start date
Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
I enjoyed the story, but couldn't it have been posted in the Haynesworth to Patriots thread instead of starting a new one? Thanks again for the post.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
I agree with what that guy said completely. It can be said about Brady too. Everything he does is just right.
Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
Belichick's draft this year was laughable and so has some in years past. So he's not without fault. Funny when other teams pickup troubled players they are ridiculed, but with BB does it, it's genius.
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sspunisher
Footballguy
Thanks. I love Bill's buy low mentality, any decent FF owner can appreciate it.
It's amazing that his career survived Spy Gate. If that was any other coach, he'd be hung in front of NFL Headquarters with a "Cheaters be Warned" sign wrapped around his neck.
It's amazing that his career survived Spy Gate. If that was any other coach, he'd be hung in front of NFL Headquarters with a "Cheaters be Warned" sign wrapped around his neck.
The Comedian
Footballguy
His track record picking up guys like this is unmatched in the NFL. He may get credit for some things that he does not deserve, but this is not one of those things.
Carver
Footballguy
How in the world do you know that?
ETA- After last years draft everyone was saying "Devin WHO??" after the Mcourty pick. All he did was go on to have one of the best rookie years of any CB in recent memory.
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The Comedian
Footballguy
Chad Johnson for a 6th round pick.
Belichick does it again. Classic.
Belichick does it again. Classic.
Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
Two middle of the pack RB prospects and a TE when you have two great TEs already? They could have had AJ Green, Julio Jones, or Mark Ingram. They had enough ammunition to move up to the top few picks to get Green or Jones, but instead feel the need to collect more picks. I think he's addicted to collecting picks rather than use them. Watch him next year not move up to get one of Justin Blackmon or Alshon Jeffrey. Instead he will collect more picksHow in the world do you know that?
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Doug B
Footballguy
A little bit of advocatus diaboli :
Somebody's got to explain Belichik's Cleveland years. Could he conceivably ever turn into THAT GUY again?
Don't forget, too -- eventually, even legends like Tom Landry, Don Shula, and Chuck Noll started putting out mediocre squads after a while. Heck, George Halas helmed many, many crummy teams.
Somebody's got to explain Belichik's Cleveland years. Could he conceivably ever turn into THAT GUY again?
Don't forget, too -- eventually, even legends like Tom Landry, Don Shula, and Chuck Noll started putting out mediocre squads after a while. Heck, George Halas helmed many, many crummy teams.
parrot
Footballguy
sspunisher
Footballguy
Seriously? If that happened in New York or Dallas, forget about it man...If it had been any other coach it wouldn't have been half the story it was.
greenline
Footballguy
Riiiiiight. Because YOU know more than the greatest coach of the modern era. I suggest you go to Patriots.com, look for "Careers", "Contact Us" and submit your resume. Your message board expertise is laughable.
GoFishTN
Footballguy
Psst... he has a losing record without Brady. Don't tell anyone.
sihaokills
Footballguy
Nice story
greenline
Footballguy
Pssst...he had two years in NE without Brady. Don't tell anyone. Pssst...one of which was the first season in which he drafted him...psssst. The other he went 11-5 with a 7th round scrub he developed...pssst. Pssst...no one cares about Cleveland.
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GoFishTN
Footballguy
DropKick
Footballguy
Personally, I don't understand why people cite the Cleveland years as this huge disaster. His teams were 36-44; pretty much middle of the pack; crazy years for the Browns including clashes between BB and QB Kosar, Plus the Browns tanked his final season when the team announced it was leaving Cleveland.Winning in the NFL is hard. It takes talent and commitment on the roster and in the front office. Most fans recognize this. I'm sure BB made his mistakes but Cleveland was a bad situation - not a good position for a rookie coach.
Agree with Hoss about the draft; you can only defer picks so long... I thought this would be the year BB made an aggressive move up.
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Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
Wow. You don't have to get so upset about this.
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Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
Just like when the Dentist slips and hits a nerve. Now rinse.'greenline said:
baconisgood
Footballguy
Its easy- he took over a 3-13 team and went 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5 (1-1 in the playoffs) and then Modell moved the team and fired him. His record in Cleveland isn't that bad.'Doug B said:
wiscstlatlmia
Footballguy
I think its pretty clear at this point they(The Patriots) are not drafting the skill position players with the highest ceiling, rather they are picking guys that could potentially fit there system the best. I mean, right now they could have dez bryant and mark ingram . But would they want that? Then they would end up having to put more salary cap into a position that they dont necessarily need a superstar in. People think bad draft when they look at the pats because they didn't pick the flashiest guys. But, I think they picked the perfect guys for there system. Guys that will go out there, do there job and then they(the Patriots) dont have to worry about re-negotiating new contracts, players holding out or guys getting big heads. Thats the patriots way, dont think for a second they drafted Stevan Ridley knowing guys like Kendall hunter, Roy Helu, Alex Green , Taiwan Jones and Bilal Powell Had a Higher ceiling from a pure talent standpoint.Quoting Herb Brooks in Miracle " I'm not looking for the best players, im looking for the right ones."'Hoss_Cartwright said:Two middle of the pack RB prospects and a TE when you have two great TEs already? They could have had AJ Green, Julio Jones, or Mark Ingram. They had enough ammunition to move up to the top few picks to get Green or Jones, but instead feel the need to collect more picks. I think he's addicted to collecting picks rather than use them. Watch him next year not move up to get one of Justin Blackmon or Alshon Jeffrey. Instead he will collect more picks'Carver said:How in the world do you know that?'Hoss_Cartwright said:
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Flying Elvis
Footballguy
The trade value is undeniably good.
I still hate the move and hope it doesn't pan out. I don't want to see this waste of talent, no-heart hack ever play a real game in a Pats uniform. Thankfully, Haynesworth is such a piece of crap that he'll likely show up out of shape, half-### it and be gone by mid-August.
I still hate the move and hope it doesn't pan out. I don't want to see this waste of talent, no-heart hack ever play a real game in a Pats uniform. Thankfully, Haynesworth is such a piece of crap that he'll likely show up out of shape, half-### it and be gone by mid-August.
GoFishTN
Footballguy
You forgot one. Oversight I'm sure.
baconisgood
Footballguy
The Browns were 3-2 (iirc) when Modell announced the move. I don't blame Belicheck for the team falling apart under those circumstances, anyone in Cleveland at that time can tell you how much anger there was.
GoFishTN
Footballguy
I don't believe The Greatest Coach of the Modern Era needs such excuses.
parrot
Footballguy
I disagree. Neither Dallas or New York had been terribly successful recently, so mostly there would have been a collective "meh". I think if it had been any team other than the Patriots - the most successful team in recent memory, and thus ripe for some comeuppance in many people's eyes - people would have taken a more measured approach. They may have even kept in perspective what they actually got in trouble for, which was videotaping from an illegal location, NOT videotaping another team's signals.Seriously? If that happened in New York or Dallas, forget about it man...
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I don't recall his teams being any good except for that playoff one. I'm not sure if those 6 wins weren't against the worst of the worst and gimme wins. I think you minimized how bad it was. It was four years, Modell didn't move them after one bad year.He benched a legend for Testaverde. Proper protocol would involve a trade or drafting a rook, not starting an INT prone veteran. The legend status was overblown, but he still had to address it to appease fans.
His D wasn't that good and Pepper had some of the highest tackle #s ever those years. It's hard to tell with it being a subjective stat and all, but it was a ton.
I don't think BB ever relaxed and over thought every little thing. He had no perspective and stressed himself into not doing a very good job. I have little doubt he learned a ton there.
It's great to know no other coaches ever spied on others. It is a shame though that they have to communicate with head phones and cover their mouths with their gameplan ever since though. Before BB, when they announced on TV what play they were going to run, that was a special time.
baconisgood
Footballguy
Modell moved the team because Baltimore backed a dump truck full of money up to his house. He had no fortune outside of the Browns and knew that his son wouldn't be able to pay the inheritance tax without selling the team so he took a boatload of cash (and a new stadium) which allowed him to do that. As far as the team goes Belicheck to the #28 D in pts given up and turned them into the #1 D in 4 years, their offense was weak but he managed to put together a damn fine D and he started with very little.
Perhaps he could have handled it better but he was right. Kosar started 3 games post Cleveland even though he was only 30 and had 105 starts and several playoff wins under his belt. He was just broken. The fans pretty much forgave that when they won that playoff game (the last the browns have won).
I believe you're minimizing this. This was one of the biggest stories in the NFL. How he handled it is all that matters. I mean they weren't winning so it's not like there was a bigger issue.BB is very much a student of the history of the game and (correct or not) to Cleveland fans he about benched Staubach, Elway or Montana.It's not just that, the fans watched their love be replaced with a guy that threw more INTs than anyone in recent memory and somehow kept their job.In today's world, that'd be like how NE fans would take it if he benched Brady for Grossman. If there is some fictitious handbook for coaches, BB and Kosar is how not to do this. And forgiveness, cmon now. They just adapted and moved on. I'm old enough to recall the Browns newsgroup, you're minimizing
baconisgood
Footballguy
And yet he made the right move.
I don't want to get into a debate about Spygate again but didn't Goodell send a memo to all teams at the beginning of the season that "No videotaping of opponents signals would be allowed?"I don't remember that memo saying it's okay if you pick the right location.I mean, it's really not very enforcable if you do it from your own booth, but that wasn't the issue.Personally, i always wondered why they didn't have the guy in the rafters with a high powered lens. They sell them in every city. Then they could have avoided that embarassing shot of the guy trying to get around the towel. It still makes me laugh thinking about it. If you put it to yakety sax it makes a great Benny Hill routine.I'm sorry but the whole "location" argument sounds like lawyer talk.I disagree. Neither Dallas or New York had been terribly successful recently, so mostly there would have been a collective "meh". I think if it had been any team other than the Patriots - the most successful team in recent memory, and thus ripe for some comeuppance in many people's eyes - people would have taken a more measured approach. They may have even kept in perspective what they actually got in trouble for, which was videotaping from an illegal location, NOT videotaping another team's signals.Seriously? If that happened in New York or Dallas, forget about it man...
parrot
Footballguy
Per the bolded; no, the memo pointed out that it's illegal to do videotaping "of any type" from certain locations, including the sidelines.'hook014 said:I don't want to get into a debate about Spygate again but didn't Goodell send a memo to all teams at the beginning of the season that "No videotaping of opponents signals would be allowed?"'parrot said:I disagree. Neither Dallas or New York had been terribly successful recently, so mostly there would have been a collective "meh". I think if it had been any team other than the Patriots - the most successful team in recent memory, and thus ripe for some comeuppance in many people's eyes - people would have taken a more measured approach. They may have even kept in perspective what they actually got in trouble for, which was videotaping from an illegal location, NOT videotaping another team's signals.Seriously? If that happened in New York or Dallas, forget about it man...
I don't remember that memo saying it's okay if you pick the right location.
I mean, it's really not very enforcable if you do it from your own booth, but that wasn't the issue.
Personally, i always wondered why they didn't have the guy in the rafters with a high powered lens. They sell them in every city. Then they could have avoided that embarassing shot of the guy trying to get around the towel. It still makes me laugh thinking about it. If you put it to yakety sax it makes a great Benny Hill routine.
I'm sorry but the whole "location" argument sounds like lawyer talk.
If they meant to say that videotaping of opponent's signals is illegal from any location, that would have been very easy to do, but that's not what the memo said.
I think you're trying hard to ignore the last sentence in that memo. I don't see the loophole you're seeing at all.Per the bolded; no, the memo pointed out that it's illegal to do videotaping "of any type" from certain locations, including the sidelines.'hook014 said:I don't want to get into a debate about Spygate again but didn't Goodell send a memo to all teams at the beginning of the season that "No videotaping of opponents signals would be allowed?"'parrot said:I disagree. Neither Dallas or New York had been terribly successful recently, so mostly there would have been a collective "meh". I think if it had been any team other than the Patriots - the most successful team in recent memory, and thus ripe for some comeuppance in many people's eyes - people would have taken a more measured approach. They may have even kept in perspective what they actually got in trouble for, which was videotaping from an illegal location, NOT videotaping another team's signals.Seriously? If that happened in New York or Dallas, forget about it man...
I don't remember that memo saying it's okay if you pick the right location.
I mean, it's really not very enforcable if you do it from your own booth, but that wasn't the issue.
Personally, i always wondered why they didn't have the guy in the rafters with a high powered lens. They sell them in every city. Then they could have avoided that embarassing shot of the guy trying to get around the towel. It still makes me laugh thinking about it. If you put it to yakety sax it makes a great Benny Hill routine.
I'm sorry but the whole "location" argument sounds like lawyer talk.If they meant to say that videotaping of opponent's signals is illegal from any location, that would have been very easy to do, but that's not what the memo said.
parrot
Footballguy
I'm not ignoring anything. That last sentence again deals with where filming may or may not be done, it says nothing about the subject matter of said filming. There is no loophole; there is a clear rule against filming from your sidelines - filming ANYTHING, from your sidelines. The Pats broke that rule and were punished for it. They would have been equally as guilty of breaking that rule had they been filming cheerleaders and not signals however.I think you're trying hard to ignore the last sentence in that memo. I don't see the loophole you're seeing at all.Per the bolded; no, the memo pointed out that it's illegal to do videotaping "of any type" from certain locations, including the sidelines.'hook014 said:I don't want to get into a debate about Spygate again but didn't Goodell send a memo to all teams at the beginning of the season that "No videotaping of opponents signals would be allowed?"'parrot said:I disagree. Neither Dallas or New York had been terribly successful recently, so mostly there would have been a collective "meh". I think if it had been any team other than the Patriots - the most successful team in recent memory, and thus ripe for some comeuppance in many people's eyes - people would have taken a more measured approach. They may have even kept in perspective what they actually got in trouble for, which was videotaping from an illegal location, NOT videotaping another team's signals.Seriously? If that happened in New York or Dallas, forget about it man...
I don't remember that memo saying it's okay if you pick the right location.
I mean, it's really not very enforcable if you do it from your own booth, but that wasn't the issue.
Personally, i always wondered why they didn't have the guy in the rafters with a high powered lens. They sell them in every city. Then they could have avoided that embarassing shot of the guy trying to get around the towel. It still makes me laugh thinking about it. If you put it to yakety sax it makes a great Benny Hill routine.
I'm sorry but the whole "location" argument sounds like lawyer talk.If they meant to say that videotaping of opponent's signals is illegal from any location, that would have been very easy to do, but that's not what the memo said.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
I don't blame all the envy in this thread. I remember how jealous I used to be about the great franchises before all these championships.
no he didn't.you're missing the forest for the trees or laying down M&Ms hoping I'll follow along. I like M&Ms so I will.holding onto "but Kosar was done" means little if the replacement is worse.Testaverde threw more INTs and for a worse percentage than Kosar.Getting a rook replacement or ANY free agent that would be respectable would have been a better route. This was pure coaching ego being stroked by BB. Testaverde had thrown about 100 INTs in his first five years and suddenly with a dash of BB coaching, he'd be as good as Montana. Ummm not happening. It's OK. Every coach has probably done something like that. Shanny seems to be the most guilty and they won't know unless they try. 100 in five years is a guess, but I'd also guess Kosar didn't even throw that many in his entire career. Interceptaverde started with the lowly Bucs.Kosar started with a team that seemed to last win with Jim Brown and yet they made the playoffs each of his first five? six? years.Some Schotty fumbling that was oh so curiously repeated again is probably the only thing that stopped Kosar from taking the Browns to a Supe. When's the last time you can recall the Browns in a Supe? Yeah, they loved that guy'baconisgood said:
baconisgood
Footballguy
Tom Tupa attempted 1 pass in his 2 years with Cleveland.
baconisgood
Footballguy
Kosar was completing 58% of his passes on 5.8y/a. Vinny was completing 56.5 @ 7.8. Those numbers favor VT greatly, not Kosar.
Kosar had a sack rate of 13%. THIRTEEN! the other starting Qb behind the same line had 6.9.
Testaverde went on the start another 100 times in the NFL while Kosar got 3 starts despite the fact that Testaverde was older than Kosar (by 12 days- but still!).
Kosar washed out of the league for a reason.
