Hillary takes responsibility for loss. Blames Russia, FBI, misogyny, media, and unprecedented interference. (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

I'm not ready to call 30% of Hispanics bigoted. That seems like something a bigot would do.

I'd hate to think so. And certainly not everyone who voted for Trump falls into that category. But you look at the data, and tell me what you think.  

 

[TobiasFunke]

That would make 30% of Hispanic voters bigoted against themselves.  That's a lot of self-loathing.

That's not at all what the data you're responding to says.

 

[tonydead]

 That's fine, you can ignore the data all you want.  She's so "lousy" at politics that she's the most successful female politician in US History.  Do you realize how silly you sound when you type crap like that?

Curious why you say that?  Other than finally winning a democratic nomination it's not a matter of glass ceilings.  Not the first women senator, not the first women as secretary of state.  I think you just have to put an asterisks next to the democratic nomination part after loosing to President Tanning Bed Warning Label.  I mean poor Shillary, after being pushed aside for a relatively unknown candidate and waiting 8 long grueling years, then loosing to Mango Mussolini....rough.

 

[Politician Spock]

It amazes me how some people can analyze this to death.

There are people who analyzed to death why the Rams couldn't beat the 49er's last year too, but most sane people don't waste their time, because they see both teams really sucked. 

The problem that does need to be analyzed is why the two political parties nominate such ####ty teams for the game.

 

[timschochet]

The problem that does need to be analyzed is why the two political parties nominate such ####ty teams for the game.

This is not normally a problem at all, IMO. It was not a problem on the Democratic side. It was a problem, in 2016, on the Republican side, but since it was the first time it was a problem in over 40 years, I'm not prepared to say it's a continual problem.

On both sides, almost all of the time, the establishment candidate wins, usually after having absorbed some of the ideas of the more "pure" candidates. That's how our system has generally worked since it's inception, and it's a good system. I don't want to upend it, because if we do we will end up with more Trumps, not less. Make no mistake, Donald Trump is what happens in those rare instances when the establishment loses: you get the crazy. 

 

[Sabertooth]

Dunno.

But I don't recall any categorical denials that any such emails ever existed either.

See what I mean.  They became such a buzzword, nobody even knows what they were.  

 

[Sabertooth]

Wikileaks released many of them and apparently they release them in a manner where the authenticity can be verified by security experts.

Did anyone actually sit and read 35000 emails though?  Or was it more the "idea" of the emails that people got so hung up on?  

 

[Politician Spock]

This is not normally a problem at all, IMO. It was not a problem on the Democratic side. It was a problem, in 2016, on the Republican side, but since it was the first time it was a problem in over 40 years, I'm not prepared to say it's a continual problem.

On both sides, almost all of the time, the establishment candidate wins, usually after having absorbed some of the ideas of the more "pure" candidates. That's how our system has generally worked since it's inception, and it's a good system. I don't want to upend it, because if we do we will end up with more Trumps, not less. Make no mistake, Donald Trump is what happens in those rare instances when the establishment loses: you get the crazy. 

The republican establishment got the message loud and clear that they need to change.

The democratic establishment on the other hand still doesn't get it and blames Comey. 

 

[jonessed]

I'd hate to think so. And certainly not everyone who voted for Trump falls into that category. But you look at the data, and tell me what you think.  

They don't show the data or how they determined "racial resentment".

 

[timschochet]

They don't show the data or how they determined "racial resentment".

The links are there if you want to open them. 

 

[tonydead]

Philip Klinkner, a political scientist at Hamilton College and an expert on race relations, has pored over this ANES data and tells me that “whether it’s good politics to say so or not, the evidence from the 2016 election is very clear that attitudes about blacks, immigrants, and Muslims were a key component of Trump’s appeal.” For example, he says, “in 2016 Trump did worse than Mitt Romney among voters with low and moderate levels of racial resentment, but much better among those with high levels of resentment.”

The new ANES data only confirms what a plethora of studies have told us since the start of the presidential campaign: the race was about race. Klinkner himself grabbed headlines last summer when he revealed that the best way to identify a Trump supporter in the U.S. was to ask “just one simple question: is Barack Obama a Muslim?” Because, he said, “if they are white and the answer is yes, 89 percent of the time that person will have a higher opinion of Trump than Clinton.” This is economic anxiety? Really?

Other surveys and polls of Trump voters found “a strong relationship between anti-black attitudes and support for Trump”; Trump supporters being “more likely to describe African Americans as ‘criminal,’ ‘unintelligent,’ ‘lazy’ and ‘violent’”; more likely to believe “people of color are taking white jobs”; and a “majority” of them rating blacks “as less evolved than whites.” Sorry, but how can any of these prejudices be blamed on free trade or low wages?

Hey Tim, if this is true why didn't Hilla the Hun list race as one of her many excuses?  I mean she through out the misogyny card.

 

[timschochet]

The republican establishment got the message loud and clear that they need to change.

The democratic establishment on the other hand still doesn't get it and blames Comey. 

If that "message" is coming out against free trade because you think that somehow the rust belt jobs are going to come back, then it's a dumb message. And I hope they NEVER get it. 

 

[Politician Spock]

If that "message" is coming out against free trade because you think that somehow the rust belt jobs are going to come back, then it's a dumb message. And I hope they NEVER get it. 

:whoosh:

 

[timschochet]

Hey Tim, if this is true why didn't Hilla the Hun list race as one of her many excuses?  I mean she through out the misogyny card.

Because nobody political wants to come out with the truth and say that a significant portion of the voting public has racial resentment issues. Hillary hinted at the truth with her "basket of deplorables"- though she underestimated the problem. And you saw what happened. 

 

[timschochet]

:whoosh:

Usually when people tell me that Democrats "don't get it", if they're not Trump lovers, I assume they're Bernie fans, and that their issues are trade, Wall Street, and money in politics. 

 

[jonessed]

The links are there if you want to open them. 

I did.  They don't show details either, but their conclusions are a lot more nuanced than your article.  Have you read them?

 

[timschochet]

Latinos came out for Trump more than they voted for Romney.

Keep calling people racists, though, I'm sure it'll help next time.

Vote for us you racist bigoted morons! is a hell of a campaign slogan.

I'm not running. If I was, I certainly would never say that. 

 

[tommyGunZ]

Curious why you say that?  Other than finally winning a democratic nomination it's not a matter of glass ceilings.  Not the first women senator, not the first women as secretary of state.  I think you just have to put an asterisks next to the democratic nomination part after loosing to President Tanning Bed Warning Label.  I mean poor Shillary, after being pushed aside for a relatively unknown candidate and waiting 8 long grueling years, then loosing to Mango Mussolini....rough.

She's a twice elected Senator from NY and has received more votes than any woman in US history for President, as well as for the Democratic nomination.

That's like saying Emmitt Smith is "lousy" at football.  You can argue he's not the GOAT, but anyone suggesting he was "lousy" would be laughed out of the Shark Pool.  And rightly so.

 

[jonessed]

Because nobody political wants to come out with the truth and say that a significant portion of the voting public has racial resentment issues. Hillary hinted at the truth with her "basket of deplorables"- though she underestimated the problem. And you saw what happened. 

She called part of her base a "basket of deplorables" and that shifted counties that voted overwhelmingly for Obama to vote for Trump?  That doesn't make these people racist, it makes Hillary really dumb.

 

[tonydead]

Because nobody political wants to come out with the truth and say that a significant portion of the voting public has racial resentment issues. Hillary hinted at the truth with her "basket of deplorables"- though she underestimated the problem. And you saw what happened. 

I get that angle, but again just to make sure I understand correctly, you are saying people in politics are OK with calling people prejudice towards women and not OK with calling people prejudice towards race?

 

[Gustavo Fring]

Hey Tim, if this is true why didn't Hilla the Hun list race as one of her many excuses?  I mean she through out the misogyny card.

I wouldn't question it, the guy he quoted was an "expert" on race relations.  We can depict bigots with one simple question these days:  "Is Barack Obama a Muslim?" 

 

[timschochet]

I get that angle, but again just to make sure I understand correctly, you are saying people in politics are OK with calling people prejudice towards women and not OK with calling people prejudice towards race?

I don't even understand this question. 

 

[Politician Spock]

Usually when people tell me that Democrats "don't get it", if they're not Trump lovers, I assume they're Bernie fans, and that their issues are trade, Wall Street, and money in politics. 

There you go again lumping everyone into one category and then making categorical responses. 

 

[timschochet]

There you go again lumping everyone into one category and then making categorical responses. 

Very well, Politician Spock. I will apologize for lumping you in with 90% of those whom I've talked to about this. So: when you wrote that "Democrats don't get it", what specifically were you referring to? 

 

[tonydead]

She's a twice elected Senator from NY and has received more votes than any woman in US history for President, as well as for the Democratic nomination.

That's like saying Emmitt Smith is "lousy" at football.  You can argue he's not the GOAT, but anyone suggesting he was "lousy" would be laughed out of the Shark Pool.  And rightly so.

Sure, I wouldn't put an asterisks next to anything Emmitt did though, he played against some really good opponents.  

 

[Politician Spock]

Very well, Politician Spock. I will apologize for lumping you in with 90% of those whom I've talked to about this. So: when you wrote that "Democrats don't get it", what specifically were you referring to? 

The public wants politicians who stand on their principals, and not politicians who don't take a stance until they hear what the latest poll findings say.  

 

[Politician Spock]

She's a twice elected Senator from NY and has received more votes than any woman in US history for President, as well as for the Democratic nomination.

That's like saying Emmitt Smith is "lousy" at football.  You can argue he's not the GOAT, but anyone suggesting he was "lousy" would be laughed out of the Shark Pool.  And rightly so.

Emmitt was a woman?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I look forward to your equivalent outrage for Ivanka's Foundation out of WH.

Nice try but I've already said I think that's shady too.  Twice actually and now a third time.

 

[timschochet]

The public wants politicians who stand on their principals, and not politicians who don't take a stance until they hear what the latest poll findings say.  

How was Donald Trump able to beat a man like John Kasich, if that is truly the case? 

 

[tommyGunZ]

The public wants politicians who stand on their principals, and not politicians who don't take a stance until they hear what the latest poll findings say.  

What?  The public just elected the most unprincipled candidate in American history.  He literally changes his views from tweet to tweet.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

I think that relying on any kind of polls is just wrong at this point.  

 

[tonydead]

I don't even understand this question. 

You said:

Because nobody political wants to come out with the truth and say that a significant portion of the voting public has racial resentment issues.

She used misogyny as an excuse but not race.   You claim race is the real issue.  I'm wondering why she wouldn't want to come out using prejudice against race when she's already used prejudice against women.

 

[Politician Spock]

How was Donald Trump able to beat a man like John Kasich, if that is truly the case? 

You really don't know how Trump supporters view Trump, do you?

 

[timschochet]

You said:

She used misogyny as an excuse but not race.   You claim race is the real issue.  I'm wondering why she wouldn't want to come out using prejudice against race when she's already used prejudice against women.

Ah. Gotcha.

I dunno. I would guess that, in our society, people don't get nearly as upset being called misogynists as they do being called bigots or racists. 

 

[Politician Spock]

What?  The public just elected the most unprincipled candidate in American history.  He literally changes his views from tweet to tweet.

I agree. I expected him to be unpredictable. But Trump supporters seriously thought they knew what they were getting. 

 

[JIslander]

Nice try but I've already said I think that's shady too.  Twice actually and now a third time.

"shady".  ok.  I'm sure that's about equal to what Hills got.

 

[tonydead]

Ah. Gotcha.

I dunno. I would guess that, in our society, people don't get nearly as upset being called misogynists as they do being called bigots or racists. 

You made an assumption that politicians don't want to say out load that race is an issue.  And now you guess that is because it's a little more upsetting than saying sex is an issue.  Since it's all speculation on your part why don't we just take her for her word an stop trying to make race an issue.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

"shady".  ok.  I'm sure that's about equal to what Hills got.

Pretty much. It's pay to play and both parties do it and it needs to stop but never will.

 

[JIslander]

Pretty much. It's pay to play and both parties do it and it needs to stop but never will.

So you do see the hypocrisy with Trump, Fox news etc. making this a key issue during the campaign....and then Trump team just goes all blatant with it ?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

So you do see the hypocrisy with Trump, Fox news etc. making this a key issue during the campaign....and then Trump team just goes all blatant with it ?

Of course I see it. Do you see the hypocrisy with anyone that dismissed Hillary doing it now whining about Trump doing it?

 

[JIslander]

Of course I see it. Do you see the hypocrisy with anyone that dismissed Hillary doing it now whining about Trump doing it?

Did I say I dismissed Hillary?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Did I say I dismissed Hillary?

No.  Did I accuse you of dismissing Hillary?

 

[JIslander]

No.  Did I accuse you of dismissing Hillary?

Ummm yes ...

 

[jon_mx]

So you do see the hypocrisy with Trump, Fox news etc. making this a key issue during the campaign....and then Trump team just goes all blatant with it ?

My position was they both were too corrupt to vote for.  

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Ummm yes ...

I didn't realize your name was "anyone".  My apologies

 

[JIslander]

I didn't realize your name was "anyone".  My apologies

I know this is your shtick but that's truly a post that deserves just a " "

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I know this is your shtick but that's truly a post that deserves just a " "

I'm here all week.

Seriously, I never accused you of dismissing Hillary.

 

[butcher boy]

Hillary, you'll never sustain a sicker burn than the insane + brutal carpet-borne friction from backpedalling after the worm turned on your moron idpol altriusm. Your legs flailed in ever gayer circles fred flintstone style as you raced from the tv to the situation room to let people know that your disappointment in their failed campaign duties plus the time and money you spent trying to appease ersatz ####### leftist morons were all a waste of your incredible 30+ year political career. You cannot save face or be even remotely not a cuck.

 

[RCon]

IMO, most of the people dissecting the reasons that Hillary Clinton lost the election (including Hillary) are wrong. The main reason is that Hillary did not lose so much as Donald Trump won. 

And the main reason that Donald Trump won, according to exit polling, is white racism and bigotry against Latinos and Muslims:

https://theintercept.com/2017/04/06/top-democrats-are-wrong-trump-supporters-were-more-motivated-by-racism-than-economic-issues/

Hillary certainly made a lot of mistakes, but there was nothing she could do to combat this racism and bigotry. 

She barely lost.  Had she run an even remotely competent campaign, it would have been enough.

 

[MaxThreshold]

Nice try but I've already said I think that's shady too.  Twice actually and now a third time.

Just to be clear, while that IS shady, Ivanka is still hot.  Would bang.  Multiple times.