How many current Tight Ends will make the Hall of Fame? (1 Viewer)

[Chase Stuart]

Most pro bowls through age 28:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&year_min=1920&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=28&draft_round_min=0&draft_round_max=99&league_id=NFL&team_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_qb=Y&pos_is_rb=Y&pos_is_wr=Y&pos_is_te=Y&pos_is_rec=Y&pos_is_t=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_ol=Y&pos_is_dt=Y&pos_is_de=Y&pos_is_dl=Y&pos_is_ilb=Y&pos_is_olb=Y&pos_is_lb=Y&pos_is_cb=Y&pos_is_s=Y&pos_is_db=Y&pos_is_k=Y&pos_is_p=Y&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pro_bowls

                                                  Game     Misc           Rk             Player From   To     Draft  Tm  Lg    G  GS  Yrs PB AP1  AV1          Jim Brown* 1957 1964       1-6 CLE NFL  104 104    8  8   7 1162      Barry Sanders* 1989 1996       1-3 DET NFL  121 119    8  8   5 1203        Champ Bailey 1999 2006       1-7 TOT NFL  126 126    8  7   3 1024      Franco Harris* 1972 1978      1-13 PIT NFL   96  91    7  7   1  855       Merlin Olsen* 1962 1968 1-31-2AFL RAM NFL   96  26    7  7   3  926        Joe Schmidt* 1953 1960      7-85 DET NFL   94   0    8  7   6 1067         Junior Seau 1990 1997       1-5 SDG NFL  125 124    8  7   4 1018    Lawrence Taylor* 1981 1987       1-2 NYG NFL  101  99    7  7   6 1129     Derrick Thomas* 1989 1995       1-4 KAN NFL  110 107    7  7   2  9610       Jason Witten 2003 2010      3-69 DAL NFL  127 117    8  7   2  81

 

[geoff8695]

Most pro bowls through age 28:http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&year_min=1920&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=28&draft_round_min=0&draft_round_max=99&league_id=NFL&team_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_qb=Y&pos_is_rb=Y&pos_is_wr=Y&pos_is_te=Y&pos_is_rec=Y&pos_is_t=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_ol=Y&pos_is_dt=Y&pos_is_de=Y&pos_is_dl=Y&pos_is_ilb=Y&pos_is_olb=Y&pos_is_lb=Y&pos_is_cb=Y&pos_is_s=Y&pos_is_db=Y&pos_is_k=Y&pos_is_p=Y&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pro_bowls

                                                  Game     Misc           Rk             Player From   To     Draft  Tm  Lg    G  GS  Yrs PB AP1  AV1          Jim Brown* 1957 1964       1-6 CLE NFL  104 104    8  8   7 1162      Barry Sanders* 1989 1996       1-3 DET NFL  121 119    8  8   5 1203        Champ Bailey 1999 2006       1-7 TOT NFL  126 126    8  7   3 1024      Franco Harris* 1972 1978      1-13 PIT NFL   96  91    7  7   1  855       Merlin Olsen* 1962 1968 1-31-2AFL RAM NFL   96  26    7  7   3  926        Joe Schmidt* 1953 1960      7-85 DET NFL   94   0    8  7   6 1067         Junior Seau 1990 1997       1-5 SDG NFL  125 124    8  7   4 1018    Lawrence Taylor* 1981 1987       1-2 NYG NFL  101  99    7  7   6 1129     Derrick Thomas* 1989 1995       1-4 KAN NFL  110 107    7  7   2  9610       Jason Witten 2003 2010      3-69 DAL NFL  127 117    8  7   2  81

Yeah I hear ya'... That's OK Chase, but how many of those guys are HOFers?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Look at the career of Ben Coates.http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CoatBe00.htmwe don't know what will happen with Witten in the future.

Coates in 10 seasons (158 games) caught 499 passes for 5,555 yards and 50TDs, and was a pro-bowler in 5/10 seasonsWitten in 8 seasons (127 games) has caught 617 passes for 6,967 yards and 36TDs, and was pro-bowler in 7/8 seasonsWitten's 8 seasons are already much better than Coates' 10, and Witten is only 29 yrs. old. The only thing anyone can say against Witten is that he isn't a basketball style, jump ballin', #1 red zone target on his teams. Otherwise, he is arguably a better all around TE than anyone in NFL history, and puts up as prolific offensive stats as any TE not named Gates. I think the Coates comparison is more of an argument in favor of, rather than against, Witten's HOF credentials.

Over a 6 year period from 1993 to 1998, Coates put up 428 catches, 4835 yards, and 44 TDs. That averages out to 71 rec, 806 yards, and 7.3 TDs per year.Over a 7 year period from 2004 to 2010, Witten put up 582 catches, 6620 yards, and 35 TDs. That averages out to 83 rec, 946 yards, and 5 TDs per year.They are pretty similar. Witten has more yardage, Coates more touchdowns. But, I seem to recall Coates standing out more vs his peers than Witten does now since the passing games have improved and the TE position is deeper than it's ever been. Plus, TEs seem to be playing a bigger role in the NFL these days than they did 15 years ago. Coates was more the exception back then.I love Witten and have no problem with him getting in eventually. I just don't think he's done enough to warrant serious consideration right now. If he continues to play at a high all-around level, improves his TD numbers, and has some playoff success, then he would obviously have a stronger case.If neither of them ever played another snap though, I think Gates has done enough to get in and Witten has not.I only brought up Coates originally because his play/production dropped off so dramatically after a pretty dominant stretch.

 

[geoff8695]

Over a 6 year period from 1993 to 1998, Coates put up 428 catches, 4835 yards, and 44 TDs. That averages out to 71 rec, 806 yards, and 7.3 TDs per year.Over a 7 year period from 2004 to 2010, Witten put up 582 catches, 6620 yards, and 35 TDs. That averages out to 83 rec, 946 yards, and 5 TDs per year.They are pretty similar. Witten has more yardage, Coates more touchdowns. But, I seem to recall Coates standing out more vs his peers than Witten does now since the passing games have improved and the TE position is deeper than it's ever been. Plus, TEs seem to be playing a bigger role in the NFL these days than they did 15 years ago. Coates was more the exception back then.I love Witten and have no problem with him getting in eventually. I just don't think he's done enough to warrant serious consideration right now. If he continues to play at a high all-around level, improves his TD numbers, and has some playoff success, then he would obviously have a stronger case.If neither of them ever played another snap though, I think Gates has done enough to get in and Witten has not.I only brought up Coates originally because his play/production dropped off so dramatically after a pretty dominant stretch.

That's fine, agree to disagree and all...However, my recollections of Coates standing out more than Witten would actually agree with yours. That's probably because when Coates was playing there weren't as many productive TEs as there are now, causing us to remember the top 1-2 enjoying clear-cut separation from the rest of the pack. Ben's career also coincided with Shannon Sharpe's, so maybe there's even a tendency to want to view Sharpe/Coates career paths as somehow equating to Gates/Witten.Whatever the mindset, I can't help coming up with a different conclusion when looking a little more closely at the unbelievable numbers and consistency of Witten's career through age 28: pro-bowl in 7/8 chances, already 4th in NFL history in TE receptions, and 6th in NFL history in yds receiving (less than 40 yds behind-and two years younger than- Gates, so probably will finish higher at career's end).

 

[Ghost Rider]

Pro Bowl nods are overrated in general, and even moreso when you consider that most of the top TEs in the NFL have been in the AFC since Witten came into the league, thus making it far easier for him to make the Pro Bowl every year. I am not saying he wasn't Pro Bowl worthy in all or even most of those years, but someone not named Antonio Gates or Tony Gonzalez (when he was on KC) could have put up Witten-like numbers in the AFC for years, yet not made the Pro Bowl, since only 2 TEs make it from each conference. Meanwhile, Witten is almost a foregone conclusion every year since there has been no other consistently great, or even very good, TE in the NFC over the last 8 years.

And what is with comparing Witten's numbers to TEs of other generations? I thought most of us had figured out that, how you compare to the peers of your generation is what matters, not how you match up vs. players of other generations where maybe offensive numbers as a whole weren't as impressive.

 

[Tau837]

Most pro bowls through age 28:http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&year_min=1920&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=28&draft_round_min=0&draft_round_max=99&league_id=NFL&team_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_qb=Y&pos_is_rb=Y&pos_is_wr=Y&pos_is_te=Y&pos_is_rec=Y&pos_is_t=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_ol=Y&pos_is_dt=Y&pos_is_de=Y&pos_is_dl=Y&pos_is_ilb=Y&pos_is_olb=Y&pos_is_lb=Y&pos_is_cb=Y&pos_is_s=Y&pos_is_db=Y&pos_is_k=Y&pos_is_p=Y&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pro_bowls

                                                  Game     Misc           Rk             Player From   To     Draft  Tm  Lg    G  GS  Yrs PB AP1  AV1          Jim Brown* 1957 1964       1-6 CLE NFL  104 104    8  8   7 1162      Barry Sanders* 1989 1996       1-3 DET NFL  121 119    8  8   5 1203        Champ Bailey 1999 2006       1-7 TOT NFL  126 126    8  7   3 1024      Franco Harris* 1972 1978      1-13 PIT NFL   96  91    7  7   1  855       Merlin Olsen* 1962 1968 1-31-2AFL RAM NFL   96  26    7  7   3  926        Joe Schmidt* 1953 1960      7-85 DET NFL   94   0    8  7   6 1067         Junior Seau 1990 1997       1-5 SDG NFL  125 124    8  7   4 1018    Lawrence Taylor* 1981 1987       1-2 NYG NFL  101  99    7  7   6 1129     Derrick Thomas* 1989 1995       1-4 KAN NFL  110 107    7  7   2  9610       Jason Witten 2003 2010      3-69 DAL NFL  127 117    8  7   2  81

All Pros are a much better measuring stick IMO. How does Witten compare on that front?(And even All Pros are subject to chance... Witten would not have been 1st team All Pro last year had Gates not gotten hurt; Gates was 2nd team All Pro despite playing just 10 games.)

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

how many receivers/tight ends have made the Hall of Fame without ever leading their team in receiving in a single season?

 

[geoff8695]

This thread is asking which active TEs will make the HOF, NOT for an argument over who is better Witten or Gates.

Now I suppose I could be wrong, but I believe it's perfectly acceptable for two TEs from the same era to both make the HOF. Especially when those two are both among the top 3-5 TEs in the history of the NFL. And they don't have to be mirror images of one another, it's OK for them to be different types of players, which they are.

Witten has more than enough statistical justification for being in the HOF based on the strength of his consistently elite career, and he doesn't need to equal Gates as his team's #1 receiving threat and red zone target, or even average 13 yds per catch to get into the HOF.

However, it almost seems as though some of those arguing against Witten, simply like Gates better and can't handle the thought of Witten being spoken of in the same sentence with Gates as future HOF TEs. But that's the truth of the matter folks.

It's really going to be alright, and YES, BOTH are really locks for the HOF. Don't sweat it.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

However, it almost seems as though some of those arguing against Witten, simply like Gates better and can't handle the thought of Witten being spoken of in the same sentence with Gates as future HOF TEs. But that's the truth of the matter folks. It's really going to be alright, and YES, BOTH are really locks for the HOF. Don't sweat it.

why would you think this?I'm a much bigger Witten fan. That doesn't really impact my opinion on who I think is the stronger HOF candidate.Witten is not the dominant player that Gates is. He just isn't. Blocking matters, but you're not going to find a blocking TE in the HOF so it primarily comes down to their ability as a receiver.Also, I think all 3 tight ends played in the same era so it's tough to put 3 guys from the same era that played a shallow position like TE in the HOF. If someone is going to be left out, right now it's pretty clear that guy is Witten. He has a chance to change that over the next 3 to 5 years though.

 

[geoff8695]

However, it almost seems as though some of those arguing against Witten, simply like Gates better and can't handle the thought of Witten being spoken of in the same sentence with Gates as future HOF TEs. But that's the truth of the matter folks.

It's really going to be alright, and YES, BOTH are really locks for the HOF. Don't sweat it.

why would you think this?

I'm a much bigger Witten fan. That doesn't really impact my opinion on who I think is the stronger HOF candidate.

Witten is not the dominant player that Gates is. He just isn't. Blocking matters, but you're not going to find a blocking TE in the HOF so it primarily comes down to their ability as a receiver.

Also, I think all 3 tight ends played in the same era so it's tough to put 3 guys from the same era that played a shallow position like TE in the HOF. If someone is going to be left out, right now it's pretty clear that guy is Witten. He has a chance to change that over the next 3 to 5 years though.

Because of the constant comparisons to Gates being used as arguments against Witten. Witten doesn't have to best Gates receiving numbers. Although I would be shocked if Witten doesn't end his career with a ton more receptions and yardage than Gates. Also, even when you include Gonzo, up to this point in their careers Witten has better receptions and yardage totals than Gonzo through first 8 seasons, and at 29 yrs. old Witten has a chance to challenge Gonzo for career yardage leader without having to even perform at the same level Gonzo did from age 29 on.

It's simply amazing that Witten already ranks 4th in receptions (77+/season) and 6th in yards (less than 40 behind Gates) by age 28! And worst case, he should easily finish top 3 in both of these offensive categories. On top of that despite being criticized for not being the #1 red zone target, he should finish top 5 in TDs before hanging up his cleats.

No one outside of Gonzo and Gates is even in the same conversation as Witten. Not even Sharpe who retired after Witten and Gates' rookie season. There's no realistic scenario I can envision where Witten gets edged out at this point, he's done too much through 8 seasons, giving himself a cushion moving forward. He could just become a stat compiler and still destroy reception and yardage totals of almost any of the few currently ahead of him.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Because of the constant comparisons to Gates being used as arguments against Witten. Witten doesn't have to best Gates receiving numbers. Although I would be shocked if Witten doesn't end his career with a ton more receptions and yardage than Gates.

Because that's the topic of this thread. Many people, myself included, think it's unlikely that 3 tight ends whose careers overlapped this much will have a tough time all getting in. So, it comes down to ranking those 3 guys and right now, Gonzo is obviously 1st and Witten is clearly 3rd. That's all.Yes, Witten is younger and has more of his career ahead of him, plus Gates has some injury issues he's been dealing with. That might be all it takes for Witten to pass him in the future.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

No one outside of Gonzo and Gates is even in the same conversation as Witten. Not even Sharpe who retired after Witten and Gates' rookie season. There's no realistic scenario I can envision where Witten gets edged out at this point, he's done too much through 8 seasons, giving himself a cushion moving forward. He could just become a stat compiler and still destroy reception and yardage totals of almost any of the few currently ahead of him.

HOF isn't just about numbers.Sharpe won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years. He's a much stronger candidate than Witten. Not really sure how anyone can say Sharpe is not in the same conversation as Witten with a straight face. If Witten tears his achilles next week, will he still be a HOF lock?Sharpe was a 1st team All Pro 4 times and has 62 touchdowns. He also has 62 catches, 814 yards, and 4 touchdowns in the 18 playoff games.Witten has been a 1st team All Pro 2 times and has 36 touchdowns. He has 28 catches, 293 yards, and 0 touchdowns in 5 playoff games.

 

[geoff8695]

No one outside of Gonzo and Gates is even in the same conversation as Witten. Not even Sharpe who retired after Witten and Gates' rookie season. There's no realistic scenario I can envision where Witten gets edged out at this point, he's done too much through 8 seasons, giving himself a cushion moving forward. He could just become a stat compiler and still destroy reception and yardage totals of almost any of the few currently ahead of him.

HOF isn't just about numbers.Sharpe won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years. He's a much stronger candidate than Witten. Not really sure how anyone can say Sharpe is not in the same conversation as Witten with a straight face. If Witten tears his achilles next week, will he still be a HOF lock?Sharpe was a 1st team All Pro 4 times and has 62 touchdowns. He also has 62 catches, 814 yards, and 4 touchdowns in the 18 playoff games.Witten has been a 1st team All Pro 2 times and has 36 touchdowns. He has 28 catches, 293 yards, and 0 touchdowns in 5 playoff games.

How many Super Bowls have Gonzo or Gates won?Obviously a torn achilles would change things, but it would be just as devastating for Gates, who is far more likely to suffer leg injuries as he constantly is compensating for what appears to be chronic foot problems, making him more likely to sustain additional injuries, and with Gates being two years older, he is more of an injury concern IMO.Sharpe's four all pros is VERY impressive, and Gonzo's FIVE are even more impressive, but I believe two all pros combined with likely 9 or 10+ pro bowls will be plenty, and a future all pro or two is certainly still within Witten's reach, especially with Gates injuries mounting. Gates only has one more all-pro than Witten's two currently, and both Witten and Gates have two 2nd team all pros to their credit. However, IMO Witten's future outlook for racking up even more accolades is brighter than Gates'. The Dallas offense will continue to rely on Witten heavily enough in the foreseeable future that Sharpe's numbers are well within reach. Anyone can try to predict injuries, but the elite NFL talents typically have a knack for prolonging their careers. To this point Witten has demonstrated himself to be an elite NFL talent and I just don't see a realistic scenario where Witten doesn't blow past Sharpe's numbers with relative ease. Only Gates and Gonzo are serious contenders to put up career numbers that Witten may not surpass when all is said and done IMO.

 

[geoff8695]

how many receivers/tight ends have made the Hall of Fame without ever leading their team in receiving in a single season?

The 2010 season ended with Witten again at the top of the club’s receptions list for the fourth straight season with 94 – tying himself for third-most in a season in club history – and his 1,002 yards makes him one of only three tight ends in league history to post multiple 90-catch, 1,000-yard seasons. His third 1,000-yard season also is only one fewer than Tony Gonzalez (four times), and equals Todd Christensen, Shannon Sharpe and Kellen Winslow Sr. (three times each) and surpasses Antonio Gates (two times) as the only tight ends in league history with multiple 1,000-yard seasons.Sharpe retired after playing his last season at age 35, Gonzo is currently 35 years old, and Gates is 31.Witten is only 29...

 

[Tanner9919]

Witten is just as much of a lock as Gates.

he's a LOCK to make the HOF..

and it's not just because of the catches and yards, but the guy is a beast of a blocker. probably one of the most versatile TE's to ever play the game..great blocker, great hands, speed, RAC,etc.

TD totals are somewhat light, but is that his fault or is it the offensive play calling??

he is what Mark Bavaro would have been, if not for the injuries..

 

[De Novo]

LOCKS

Tony Gonzalez - The Man.

Antonio Gates - Already has HOF-worthy numbers.

Jermichael Finley -

NOT IMPOSSIBLE

Jason Witten - The catches and yards are piling up. But he doesn't find the end zone frequently enough.

Dallas Clark - He needs good health, he needs many more seasons like '09, and he needs Peyton to not retire.

VERY EARLY, BUT THE TALENT IS THERE

Vernon Davis

Brandon Pettigrew

Thoughts?

Edited to put Gates in his rightful "LOCK" category.

Pettigrew? This must be a joke.There are probably 10 TEs who have the talent to maybe make the HOF - Pettigrew, Gresham, Kendricks, Fred Davis, Jacob Tamme, etc. It's not even worth mentioning them.

 

[Manster]

Witten is just as much of a lock as Gates.

he's a LOCK to make the HOF..

and it's not just because of the catches and yards, but the guy is a beast of a blocker. probably one of the most versatile TE's to ever play the game..great blocker, great hands, speed, RAC,etc.

TD totals are somewhat light, but is that his fault or is it the offensive play calling??

he is what Mark Bavaro would have been, if not for the injuries..

Ok, I'm as big a Witten believer as anyone. But, speed and Jason Witten are two things that dont go together, not even for a TE. The guy looks like he's running in molasses sometimes. BUT, it doesnt matter. He is so good at finding the soft spot. He's just a dam good football player. If he had a little more speed he'd be scary.

 

[Raider Nation]

LOCKS

Tony Gonzalez - The Man.

Antonio Gates - Already has HOF-worthy numbers.

Jermichael Finley -

NOT IMPOSSIBLE

Jason Witten - The catches and yards are piling up. But he doesn't find the end zone frequently enough.

Dallas Clark - He needs good health, he needs many more seasons like '09, and he needs Peyton to not retire.

VERY EARLY, BUT THE TALENT IS THERE

Vernon Davis

Brandon Pettigrew

Thoughts?

Edited to put Gates in his rightful "LOCK" category.

Pettigrew? This must be a joke.

Which part of "Very early, but the talent is there" do you disagree with in Pettigrew's case?It's not early in his career? Or he has no talent?

 

[MDSkinner]

Which part of "Very early, but the talent is there" do you disagree with in Pettigrew's case?

It's not early in his career? Or he has no talent?

JMO, but I think the weird aspect of Pettigrew is not the fact that he is on the list (it is early in his career and he seems to have the talent) it is the fact that he is the one on the list and not so many others who also seem to have the talent. Two that come to mind would be Mercedes Lewis and Rob Gronkowski who are both young and both had very impressive seasons last year. They have done as much as Pettigrew and still have plenty of time to prove themselves. So I agree with what you say, I just think it seems weird that he is the potential one that you put up there when there seem to be quite a few in today's game that have similar potential.

 

[De Novo]

LOCKS

Tony Gonzalez - The Man.

Antonio Gates - Already has HOF-worthy numbers.

Jermichael Finley -

NOT IMPOSSIBLE

Jason Witten - The catches and yards are piling up. But he doesn't find the end zone frequently enough.

Dallas Clark - He needs good health, he needs many more seasons like '09, and he needs Peyton to not retire.

VERY EARLY, BUT THE TALENT IS THERE

Vernon Davis

Brandon Pettigrew

Thoughts?

Edited to put Gates in his rightful "LOCK" category.

Pettigrew? This must be a joke.

Which part of "Very early, but the talent is there" do you disagree with in Pettigrew's case?It's not early in his career? Or he has no talent?

I understand it just fine. My point is that Pettigrew sticks out like a sore thumb. Everyone else has produced a lot or shown RIDICULOUS potential. I could argue Gresham, Kendricks, Fred Davis, Jacob Tamme, Marcedes Lewis, Aaron Hernandez, Rob Gronkowski, Greg Olsen, Zach Miller, Jared Cook are in the same class as Pettigrew. But only Pettigrew is mentioned. Expect some eye-rolls when you mention just Pettigrew in the same breath as Gates, Witten, Gonzo, Finley, and Dallas Clark. It's like mentioning LT, CJ, Peterson, and Jonathan Stewart in the HOF RB discussion.

 

[Raider Nation]

I could argue Gresham, Kendricks, Fred Davis, Jacob Tamme, Marcedes Lewis, Aaron Hernandez, Rob Gronkowski, Greg Olsen, Zach Miller, Jared Cook are in the same class as Pettigrew.

Of course you could. If only you had started the thread.

 

[De Novo]

I could argue Gresham, Kendricks, Fred Davis, Jacob Tamme, Marcedes Lewis, Aaron Hernandez, Rob Gronkowski, Greg Olsen, Zach Miller, Jared Cook are in the same class as Pettigrew.

Of course you could. If only you had started the thread.

Sorry for intruding into your thread. Next time, if you don't actually want people's thoughts, why not lock the thread after your 1st post?

 

[Raider Nation]

I could argue Gresham, Kendricks, Fred Davis, Jacob Tamme, Marcedes Lewis, Aaron Hernandez, Rob Gronkowski, Greg Olsen, Zach Miller, Jared Cook are in the same class as Pettigrew.

Of course you could. If only you had started the thread.

Sorry for intruding into your thread. Next time, if you don't actually want people's thoughts, why not lock the thread after your 1st post?

Okay, let's try this. I'm TERRIBLY sorry for including Pettigrew in the OP of my thread. It was simply unforgivable.Hope you don't lose any more sleep over this.

 

[Kanil]

Julius Thomas duh

This guy knows what he's talking about.

See!