GordonGekko
Footballguy
Direct Headline: Fertility rate: 'Jaw-dropping' global crash in children being born
Japan's population is projected to fall from a peak of 128 million in 2017 to less than 53 million by the end of the century.
The study projects: The number of under-fives will fall from 681 million in 2017 to 401 million in 2100.The number of over 80-year-olds will soar from 141 million in 2017 to 866 million in 2100.
Who pays tax in a massively aged world? Who pays for healthcare for the elderly? Who looks after the elderly? Will people still be able to retire from work?
Some countries have tried policies such as enhanced maternity and paternity leave, free childcare, financial incentives and extra employment rights, but there is no clear answer....
By James Gallagher 15 July 2020
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521
Direct Headline: In Japan, abortion is legal — but most women need their husband’s consent
The discreet path to a safe space for women with unwanted pregnancies is marked with an unassuming sign: two smiling storks, carrying a clover leaf and a smiling baby in a basket....Here, at Japan’s only “baby hatch,” women can anonymously leave their babies at Jikei Hospital to be put up for adoption. It’s a last resort for those who are unable or unwilling to raise a baby, with some women coming from across the country because they have nowhere and no one else to turn to...Japan is one of 11 countries — and the only one of the Group of Seven largest economies — that mandate that women get their spouse’s consent to obtain an abortion, with very few exceptions....
....Abortions are legal, but only with an expensive surgery. Contraceptive use is low. Morning-after pills are expensive and only available by prescription. Japan is weighing whether to make abortion pills available....For example, Japan only adopted birth control pills in 1999, becoming the last industrialized country to do so after 44 years of debate. ...In fiscal 2018 alone, there were 28 cases of infanticide of children under 1 year old. Seven of them were killed the day they were born,... So far this year, there have been at least six known cases of women abandoning newborns in public places....The use of the pill has hovered around just 3 percent in recent years...Morning-after pills, the emergency contraceptives taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex, exist in Japan, but they are expensive and only available by prescription, which means women risk pregnancy when they can’t access a physician in time.....
.....Under the 1948 Maternal Protection Law, women were required to obtain written consent from their husband to terminate their pregnancy. In 2013, the Health Ministry clarified that it didn’t apply to unmarried couples, and last year, it exempted married women who can prove their marriage was essentially over because of domestic violence or other reasons....But as in Yuriko’s case, many hospitals enforce the requirement on unmarried women anyway. The Health Ministry’s notice is not legally binding and allows clinics to create their own practices and pricing for providing abortions...The 10 other countries that require spousal consent are Syria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Equatorial Guinea, the United Arab Emirates, Taiwan, Indonesia, Turkey and Morocco, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights...
....In recent years, some politicians have questioned whether women should even have access to abortion — or whether it matters — given the nation’s population decline and low birthrate....Advocates, however, maintain that women’s reproductive and sexual health is something entirely separate from the nation’s demographic needs and see it as part of achieving broader gender equality in a patriarchal society with deep-seated gender roles.....There were about 140,000 surgical abortions in 2020, according to the Health Ministry. They cost between $740 and $3,000 ...Even though Japan is not a particularly religious country, he said, it has a strong sense of social responsibility, which has carried over into the debate over abortion and the feeling of shame among women who consider the procedure....
By Michelle Ye Hee Lee and Julia Mio Inuma June 14, 2022 at 2:26 a.m. EDT
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/14/japan-abortion-pill-women-reproductive-rights/
Direct Headline: Japan's same-sex marriage ban is not unconstitutional, court rules
Osaka court reaches different conclusion than in Sapporo, but federal legislation not on horizon...A Japanese court ruled on Monday that a ban on same-sex marriage was not unconstitutional, dealing a setback to LGBTQ rights activists in the only G7 nation that does not allow people of the same gender to marry....The ruling dashes activists' hopes of raising pressure on the central government to address the issue, after a court in the city of Sapporo in March 2021 decided in favour of a claim that not allowing same-sex marriage was unconstitutional....Three same-sex couples — two male, one female — had filed the case in a district court in Osaka, only the second to be heard on the issue in Japan.
The Osaka court said that marriage was defined as being only between opposite genders and that not enough debate on same-sex marriage had taken place in Japanese society....Under current rules in Japan, members of same-sex couples are not allowed to legally marry, cannot inherit each other's assets — such as a house they may have shared — and also have no parental rights over each other's children...Though partnership certificates issued by some municipalities help same-sex couples rent property together and allow them hospital visitation rights, they do not give them the full legal rights enjoyed by heterosexual couples....Japan's constitution defines marriage as one between "both sexes"...
...But the court also noted there had not been enough public debate about same-sex marriage and that "it may be possible to create a new system" recognising the interests of same-sex couples...."From the perspective of individual dignity, it can be said that it is necessary to realise the benefits of same-sex couples being publicly recognised through official recognition....Public debate on what kind of system is appropriate for this has not been thoroughly carried out...."...Activists also say conservative attitudes towards homosexuality mean many LGBTQ Japanese still do not dare to come out to their friends and family....
CBC News Jun 20, 2022 9:34 AM ET / By Zubaidah Abdul Jalil BBC News 6/20/22
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/japan-court-lgbtq-ruling-1.6494425
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-61670667
Direct Headline: How Low Can America’s Birth Rate Go Before It’s A Problem?
The U.S. fertility rate hit a record low in 2020 — just as it did in 2019, and 2018. Although the COVID-19 pandemic seems to have accelerated this decline, the drop has been underway for years. The total fertility rate — the average number of children a woman is expected to have over her lifetime — now sits at 1.64 children per woman in the U.S. Not only is this the lowest rate recorded since the government began tracking these stats in the 1930s, but it’s well below the so-called “replacement-level fertility” of about 2.1....
...The latter number is what social scientists and policymakers have long regarded as the rate a country should maintain to keep population numbers stable. When the fertility rate falls below replacement level, the population grows older and shrinks, which can slow economic growth and strain government budgets. Today’s babies are tomorrow’s workers and taxpayers: They’ll not only staff the hospitals and nursing homes we’ll use in old age but also sustain the economy by funding our pensions when we retire, paying the taxes that finance Social Security, Medicare, and many other government programs we’ll rely on, and buying the homes and stocks we invested in to build our savings....
...The fabric of society will be tested, though. Low fertility poses some serious economic challenges. Already, the share of Americans 65 and older is expected to rise from about 17 percent today to 23 percent by 2060. America’s declining fertility rate threatens to accelerate this trend, and many policymakers fear the ballooning population of older adults will overburden the nation’s dwindling workforce....What we do know, however, is that the differing perspectives on this issue leave us with two broad approaches to handling the challenges of low fertility. We can encourage people to have more children by enacting policies that make parenting more attainable. Or we can invest more in the people we’ve already got — both children and their parents — so everyone becomes a productive and capable adult......
By Stephanie H. Murray Jun. 9, 2021, at 10:00 AM
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-low-can-americas-birth-rate-go-before-its-a-problem/
VIDEO: Jordan Peterson - Population Collapse Is Coming Feb 18, 2022
Jordan Peterson responds to Elon Musk's population collapse prediction. What is the global population doing? Does Jordan Peterson think there are too many people on the earth? Are Elon Musk's population collapse and population decline predictions going to happen?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcA3rI19jYM
VIDEO: ELON MUSK: "Birthrate might be the biggest threat to the future of human civilization“ Apr 15, 2022
Elon Musk has just announced his intention to buy Twitter, and before that he spoke with Mathias Döpfner, CEO of Axel Springer (WELT, BILD, INSIDER, POLITICO). In a 45-minute interview, Tesla founder Elon Musk gives him some unexpected answers and insights into his thinking. For example his thoughts about the impact of birthrates to the future of human civilization or energy production of the future and other problems keeping him up at night.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WX_mgnAFA0
VIDEO: Living Lonely and Loveless in Japan | Foreign Correspondent Feb 17, 2022
Around the world more and more people are opting for the single life but in Japan, loneliness has become an epidemic. Marriage and childbirth rates are falling, as more and more young Japanese choose to stay single and childless. Relationships are too difficult, they say. In the country’s last Fertility Survey, figures showed that a quarter of women in their 30s were single, and half of those weren’t interested in having a relationship. Many Japanese adults aren’t even having sex. It’s estimated around 10% of people in their 30s are still virgins. By 2040, it’s estimated nearly half of Japan’s population will be single. Jake also explores a darker side of Japanese society, meeting a man who has opted out in an extreme way, hiding in his bedroom and avoiding society altogether. He’s what’s called a hikikomori, someone who withdrawn socially. In Japan there are more than a million hikikomori. Jake spends time with Masatomi, a cleaner whose job is to clear out the homes of those who die alone. Each year, tens of thousands of Japanese end their lives alone, their bodies often found after neighbours detect an odour. Masatomi is calling for Japanese people to sit up and take notice. “It’s something that could happen to anybody including myself. I strongly feel that we need to have connections with other people. I feel outrage, why don’t they see what’s going on?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SORthIsoLP0
************
"Japan won't exist soon. It's only the beginning....At risk of stating the obvious, unless something changes to cause the birth rate to exceed the death rate, Japan will eventually cease to exist...This would a great loss for the world....” - Elon Musk
In Japan, there is a massive long term birth rate crisis. At their current trajectory, it will cause the complete and total collapse of their society in the near future. Something I mentioned to @ekbeats in a previous discussion, Japan's crisis creates the most practical public argument one could make for being hard line Pro Life. Also the birth rate in Western nations have been in a longstanding total free fall as well.
The design of the traditional "nuclear family" was meant as a long term benefit for the state and government and a means to logistically hold power by the wealthy elite and high ranking political class. There is a need for future workers, soldiers and taxpayers. However if the "system" denies the average working class the means to participate in a previous social compact with actual give and take and mutual benefits, then the masses will remove their end of the bargain. Consider individuals in Japan are doing just that, and it's a dying lonely isolated society based on a multitude of complex factors. Lots of people there are living longer and fewer and fewer people are getting married and having children. Without new children, there are no new workers/employees to be treated like cattle by the social "elite". Without new workers, there is no tax base. Without a tax base, there are no essential government services to allow a modern society to function. Many young Japanese men, and even some women, have simply figured out there's little return to working like a slave for brutal hours endlessly and to never see your family nor have a basic quality of life other than being a cubicle slave, if you can even afford a family.
Think about America, where the birth rate problem is triggered across many complex social issues in our society ( Third Wave feminism, the divorce culture, anti male/misandry sentiment that is widespread and accepted, difficulty in home ownership, the "hook up" culture, the exponential costs of raising a child, it's a long list and it keeps going) How do young people feel today about starting families, especially young men? The future economic prospects aren't so hot. Society looks like it's falling apart. We have suffered a major pandemic and it's unclear if more is on the way. Culture wars have taken over the mainstream narrative as the working class suffers. It's not that hard to get casual sex for many. And what's the point of marriage? ( i.e. the most practical pathway to have children, i.e. those future workers and taxpayers) What's the point of having children if you can't be sure if they will ever be safe in this New World Order?
If the world wide birth rate continues to plummet, eventually you'll see less up top Western government interference in more "Pro Life" leanings. And like Japan, you'll see more hard pushes against things like Same Sex Marriage and making practical abortion more and more restrictive until it's only "legal" in name only. When a nation's economy collapses onto itself, from endless and long term low birth rate returns, people eventually starve and die. Essential social and government services shut down. Law and order disappear. New black markets and organized crime emerges. The worst parts of the human condition will thrive as the slaughter commences. Which is the fear of both Elon Musk and Jordan Peterson. And for those who will promote "immigration", that's not some magical fix all and boondoggle in it's own right. That issue comes with massive trade offs and push/pull of it's own.
As this is a topic I've lightly discussed with @ekbeats in the past, who is a good poster and a valuable contributor to the PSF, I welcome him into this thread to help discuss this matter.
In Japan, the question needs to be asked - What is the value of individual rights if it accelerates the pathway to the complete downfall of that society as a whole? Is that a society worth saving if you no longer have self agency and free will?
Should men and potential fathers everywhere, such as in Japan, have a legal voice and veto power on if abortions happen or not?
If Japan, specifically considering it's birth rate crisis, outlawed abortions completely, would anyone here have a problem with it? Or support it? Why or why not?
I'll leave this here for others to discuss.
Japan's population is projected to fall from a peak of 128 million in 2017 to less than 53 million by the end of the century.
The study projects: The number of under-fives will fall from 681 million in 2017 to 401 million in 2100.The number of over 80-year-olds will soar from 141 million in 2017 to 866 million in 2100.
Who pays tax in a massively aged world? Who pays for healthcare for the elderly? Who looks after the elderly? Will people still be able to retire from work?
Some countries have tried policies such as enhanced maternity and paternity leave, free childcare, financial incentives and extra employment rights, but there is no clear answer....
By James Gallagher 15 July 2020
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521
Direct Headline: In Japan, abortion is legal — but most women need their husband’s consent
The discreet path to a safe space for women with unwanted pregnancies is marked with an unassuming sign: two smiling storks, carrying a clover leaf and a smiling baby in a basket....Here, at Japan’s only “baby hatch,” women can anonymously leave their babies at Jikei Hospital to be put up for adoption. It’s a last resort for those who are unable or unwilling to raise a baby, with some women coming from across the country because they have nowhere and no one else to turn to...Japan is one of 11 countries — and the only one of the Group of Seven largest economies — that mandate that women get their spouse’s consent to obtain an abortion, with very few exceptions....
....Abortions are legal, but only with an expensive surgery. Contraceptive use is low. Morning-after pills are expensive and only available by prescription. Japan is weighing whether to make abortion pills available....For example, Japan only adopted birth control pills in 1999, becoming the last industrialized country to do so after 44 years of debate. ...In fiscal 2018 alone, there were 28 cases of infanticide of children under 1 year old. Seven of them were killed the day they were born,... So far this year, there have been at least six known cases of women abandoning newborns in public places....The use of the pill has hovered around just 3 percent in recent years...Morning-after pills, the emergency contraceptives taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex, exist in Japan, but they are expensive and only available by prescription, which means women risk pregnancy when they can’t access a physician in time.....
.....Under the 1948 Maternal Protection Law, women were required to obtain written consent from their husband to terminate their pregnancy. In 2013, the Health Ministry clarified that it didn’t apply to unmarried couples, and last year, it exempted married women who can prove their marriage was essentially over because of domestic violence or other reasons....But as in Yuriko’s case, many hospitals enforce the requirement on unmarried women anyway. The Health Ministry’s notice is not legally binding and allows clinics to create their own practices and pricing for providing abortions...The 10 other countries that require spousal consent are Syria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Equatorial Guinea, the United Arab Emirates, Taiwan, Indonesia, Turkey and Morocco, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights...
....In recent years, some politicians have questioned whether women should even have access to abortion — or whether it matters — given the nation’s population decline and low birthrate....Advocates, however, maintain that women’s reproductive and sexual health is something entirely separate from the nation’s demographic needs and see it as part of achieving broader gender equality in a patriarchal society with deep-seated gender roles.....There were about 140,000 surgical abortions in 2020, according to the Health Ministry. They cost between $740 and $3,000 ...Even though Japan is not a particularly religious country, he said, it has a strong sense of social responsibility, which has carried over into the debate over abortion and the feeling of shame among women who consider the procedure....
By Michelle Ye Hee Lee and Julia Mio Inuma June 14, 2022 at 2:26 a.m. EDT
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/14/japan-abortion-pill-women-reproductive-rights/
Direct Headline: Japan's same-sex marriage ban is not unconstitutional, court rules
Osaka court reaches different conclusion than in Sapporo, but federal legislation not on horizon...A Japanese court ruled on Monday that a ban on same-sex marriage was not unconstitutional, dealing a setback to LGBTQ rights activists in the only G7 nation that does not allow people of the same gender to marry....The ruling dashes activists' hopes of raising pressure on the central government to address the issue, after a court in the city of Sapporo in March 2021 decided in favour of a claim that not allowing same-sex marriage was unconstitutional....Three same-sex couples — two male, one female — had filed the case in a district court in Osaka, only the second to be heard on the issue in Japan.
The Osaka court said that marriage was defined as being only between opposite genders and that not enough debate on same-sex marriage had taken place in Japanese society....Under current rules in Japan, members of same-sex couples are not allowed to legally marry, cannot inherit each other's assets — such as a house they may have shared — and also have no parental rights over each other's children...Though partnership certificates issued by some municipalities help same-sex couples rent property together and allow them hospital visitation rights, they do not give them the full legal rights enjoyed by heterosexual couples....Japan's constitution defines marriage as one between "both sexes"...
...But the court also noted there had not been enough public debate about same-sex marriage and that "it may be possible to create a new system" recognising the interests of same-sex couples...."From the perspective of individual dignity, it can be said that it is necessary to realise the benefits of same-sex couples being publicly recognised through official recognition....Public debate on what kind of system is appropriate for this has not been thoroughly carried out...."...Activists also say conservative attitudes towards homosexuality mean many LGBTQ Japanese still do not dare to come out to their friends and family....
CBC News Jun 20, 2022 9:34 AM ET / By Zubaidah Abdul Jalil BBC News 6/20/22
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/japan-court-lgbtq-ruling-1.6494425
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-61670667
Direct Headline: How Low Can America’s Birth Rate Go Before It’s A Problem?
The U.S. fertility rate hit a record low in 2020 — just as it did in 2019, and 2018. Although the COVID-19 pandemic seems to have accelerated this decline, the drop has been underway for years. The total fertility rate — the average number of children a woman is expected to have over her lifetime — now sits at 1.64 children per woman in the U.S. Not only is this the lowest rate recorded since the government began tracking these stats in the 1930s, but it’s well below the so-called “replacement-level fertility” of about 2.1....
...The latter number is what social scientists and policymakers have long regarded as the rate a country should maintain to keep population numbers stable. When the fertility rate falls below replacement level, the population grows older and shrinks, which can slow economic growth and strain government budgets. Today’s babies are tomorrow’s workers and taxpayers: They’ll not only staff the hospitals and nursing homes we’ll use in old age but also sustain the economy by funding our pensions when we retire, paying the taxes that finance Social Security, Medicare, and many other government programs we’ll rely on, and buying the homes and stocks we invested in to build our savings....
...The fabric of society will be tested, though. Low fertility poses some serious economic challenges. Already, the share of Americans 65 and older is expected to rise from about 17 percent today to 23 percent by 2060. America’s declining fertility rate threatens to accelerate this trend, and many policymakers fear the ballooning population of older adults will overburden the nation’s dwindling workforce....What we do know, however, is that the differing perspectives on this issue leave us with two broad approaches to handling the challenges of low fertility. We can encourage people to have more children by enacting policies that make parenting more attainable. Or we can invest more in the people we’ve already got — both children and their parents — so everyone becomes a productive and capable adult......
By Stephanie H. Murray Jun. 9, 2021, at 10:00 AM
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-low-can-americas-birth-rate-go-before-its-a-problem/
VIDEO: Jordan Peterson - Population Collapse Is Coming Feb 18, 2022
Jordan Peterson responds to Elon Musk's population collapse prediction. What is the global population doing? Does Jordan Peterson think there are too many people on the earth? Are Elon Musk's population collapse and population decline predictions going to happen?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcA3rI19jYM
VIDEO: ELON MUSK: "Birthrate might be the biggest threat to the future of human civilization“ Apr 15, 2022
Elon Musk has just announced his intention to buy Twitter, and before that he spoke with Mathias Döpfner, CEO of Axel Springer (WELT, BILD, INSIDER, POLITICO). In a 45-minute interview, Tesla founder Elon Musk gives him some unexpected answers and insights into his thinking. For example his thoughts about the impact of birthrates to the future of human civilization or energy production of the future and other problems keeping him up at night.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WX_mgnAFA0
VIDEO: Living Lonely and Loveless in Japan | Foreign Correspondent Feb 17, 2022
Around the world more and more people are opting for the single life but in Japan, loneliness has become an epidemic. Marriage and childbirth rates are falling, as more and more young Japanese choose to stay single and childless. Relationships are too difficult, they say. In the country’s last Fertility Survey, figures showed that a quarter of women in their 30s were single, and half of those weren’t interested in having a relationship. Many Japanese adults aren’t even having sex. It’s estimated around 10% of people in their 30s are still virgins. By 2040, it’s estimated nearly half of Japan’s population will be single. Jake also explores a darker side of Japanese society, meeting a man who has opted out in an extreme way, hiding in his bedroom and avoiding society altogether. He’s what’s called a hikikomori, someone who withdrawn socially. In Japan there are more than a million hikikomori. Jake spends time with Masatomi, a cleaner whose job is to clear out the homes of those who die alone. Each year, tens of thousands of Japanese end their lives alone, their bodies often found after neighbours detect an odour. Masatomi is calling for Japanese people to sit up and take notice. “It’s something that could happen to anybody including myself. I strongly feel that we need to have connections with other people. I feel outrage, why don’t they see what’s going on?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SORthIsoLP0
************
"Japan won't exist soon. It's only the beginning....At risk of stating the obvious, unless something changes to cause the birth rate to exceed the death rate, Japan will eventually cease to exist...This would a great loss for the world....” - Elon Musk
In Japan, there is a massive long term birth rate crisis. At their current trajectory, it will cause the complete and total collapse of their society in the near future. Something I mentioned to @ekbeats in a previous discussion, Japan's crisis creates the most practical public argument one could make for being hard line Pro Life. Also the birth rate in Western nations have been in a longstanding total free fall as well.
The design of the traditional "nuclear family" was meant as a long term benefit for the state and government and a means to logistically hold power by the wealthy elite and high ranking political class. There is a need for future workers, soldiers and taxpayers. However if the "system" denies the average working class the means to participate in a previous social compact with actual give and take and mutual benefits, then the masses will remove their end of the bargain. Consider individuals in Japan are doing just that, and it's a dying lonely isolated society based on a multitude of complex factors. Lots of people there are living longer and fewer and fewer people are getting married and having children. Without new children, there are no new workers/employees to be treated like cattle by the social "elite". Without new workers, there is no tax base. Without a tax base, there are no essential government services to allow a modern society to function. Many young Japanese men, and even some women, have simply figured out there's little return to working like a slave for brutal hours endlessly and to never see your family nor have a basic quality of life other than being a cubicle slave, if you can even afford a family.
Think about America, where the birth rate problem is triggered across many complex social issues in our society ( Third Wave feminism, the divorce culture, anti male/misandry sentiment that is widespread and accepted, difficulty in home ownership, the "hook up" culture, the exponential costs of raising a child, it's a long list and it keeps going) How do young people feel today about starting families, especially young men? The future economic prospects aren't so hot. Society looks like it's falling apart. We have suffered a major pandemic and it's unclear if more is on the way. Culture wars have taken over the mainstream narrative as the working class suffers. It's not that hard to get casual sex for many. And what's the point of marriage? ( i.e. the most practical pathway to have children, i.e. those future workers and taxpayers) What's the point of having children if you can't be sure if they will ever be safe in this New World Order?
If the world wide birth rate continues to plummet, eventually you'll see less up top Western government interference in more "Pro Life" leanings. And like Japan, you'll see more hard pushes against things like Same Sex Marriage and making practical abortion more and more restrictive until it's only "legal" in name only. When a nation's economy collapses onto itself, from endless and long term low birth rate returns, people eventually starve and die. Essential social and government services shut down. Law and order disappear. New black markets and organized crime emerges. The worst parts of the human condition will thrive as the slaughter commences. Which is the fear of both Elon Musk and Jordan Peterson. And for those who will promote "immigration", that's not some magical fix all and boondoggle in it's own right. That issue comes with massive trade offs and push/pull of it's own.
As this is a topic I've lightly discussed with @ekbeats in the past, who is a good poster and a valuable contributor to the PSF, I welcome him into this thread to help discuss this matter.
In Japan, the question needs to be asked - What is the value of individual rights if it accelerates the pathway to the complete downfall of that society as a whole? Is that a society worth saving if you no longer have self agency and free will?
Should men and potential fathers everywhere, such as in Japan, have a legal voice and veto power on if abortions happen or not?
If Japan, specifically considering it's birth rate crisis, outlawed abortions completely, would anyone here have a problem with it? Or support it? Why or why not?
I'll leave this here for others to discuss.
Last edited by a moderator:
