I need some more daughter advice- this time from fellow atheists (1 Viewer)

[Andy Dufresne]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

If your kid needs religion to be a better person you ####ing failed as a parent.

no one said anything about "being a better person" but I agree 100%. If you're relying on religion to do that, you have problems.

What if they're problems that religion can solve?

Like what?

You honestly think that nothing good can come out of finding religion?

I'd love to see the list of things that religion can solve but would be otherwise unsolvable.

Didn't say that either.

 

[Henry Ford]

"We don't demand the parishioners' money. They give it of their own free will once we explain that God commanded it and they will go to hell if they don't. Also, sometimes we send them letters to remind them that they're behind and kick them out of the church if they don't pay."

 

[shadyridr]

Umm is your name Phil and are you a Russian spy by any chance?

 

[The Commish]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

If your kid needs religion to be a better person you ####ing failed as a parent.

no one said anything about "being a better person" but I agree 100%. If you're relying on religion to do that, you have problems.

What if they're problems that religion can solve?

Like?

 

[Card Trader]

As you can see in this thread, Christians are pretty nutty, but that's to be expected when there isn't a possible way to prove what you believe. It can be scary as a parent to see this warping of your child, but if you keep a dialogue with them they'll eventually see how ridiculous it all is. It's also not bad that they learn the "other side".

 

[Jayrod]

Brainwashing? Demanding tithes? Methods of enticing and influencing children?

You guys watch too many movies. A lot of people are idiots or corrupt or selfish or greedy and some of them are involved in churches. Teach your kids critical thinking skills. There are a lot more boogeymen out there that aren't even part of churches, how will you protect your kids from them?

Some pretty great people who have changed the world for good believed strongly in Jesus. Its really not a bad thing to be, even from the atheistic perspective. Its more the type of Christian that a person becomes that would be a cause for concern.

 

[timschochet]

As you can see in this thread, Christians are pretty nutty, but that's to be expected when there isn't a possible way to prove what you believe. It can be scary as a parent to see this warping of your child, but if you keep a dialogue with them they'll eventually see how ridiculous it all is. It's also not bad that they learn the "other side".

Well Commish tells me that I shouldn't discuss with her because I'm too stupid or uninformed to do so and would only come off sounding like a global warming skeptic of the most moronic type.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

If your kid needs religion to be a better person you ####ing failed as a parent.

no one said anything about "being a better person" but I agree 100%. If you're relying on religion to do that, you have problems.

What if they're problems that religion can solve?

Like?

Oh come ON.

 

[Cjw_55106]

"We don't demand the parishioners' money. They give it of their own free will once we explain that God commanded it and they will go to hell if they don't. Also, sometimes we send them letters to remind them that they're behind and kick them out of the church if they don't pay."

As a lawyer, Im sure you find it interesting that the letter wasnt shown in the article. They did manage to show a small portion of the letter with the signatures. Part of me thinks there was more to the letter and the story.

In any case, Ive never been to a church that knew how much money I made, so how would they know if I gave 10%? Furthermore, tons of people give cash. How is that accounted for? Finally, churches now have the ability to collect online donations, so whatever made up non-sense you are spewing about passing around the bucket and making sure your neighbors are giving is just that, non-sense.

 

[Jayrod]

"We don't demand the parishioners' money. They give it of their own free will once we explain that God commanded it and they will go to hell if they don't. Also, sometimes we send them letters to remind them that they're behind and kick them out of the church if they don't pay."

Nice find on that article. This is definitely an epidemic and not just an isolated incident. I'd probably make all kinds of sweeping generalizations about churches based on this report.

 

[The Commish]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

I already think of my daughter as a fine person. I also believe that religion can, for some people, be a very positive element in their lives. The actual existence of God is irrelevant to that fact, so I don't accept your premise.

I will go against the grain here and tell you to let her explore, but whatever you do, don't talk to her about it. Posts like this make it clear that you really don't understand the belief system. You will be as helpful as someone talking to her in a language she doesn't understand. That's not meant to be offensive, but I do think it's important that one understands the theology if they are going to try and rail against it. Otherwise you end up sounding like one of these idiots saying global warming can't exist because it's so freakin' cold outside. If you have family that is more in tune with the theology, perhaps you could have her speak with them?

Wow. That's quite a leap even for you.

It really isn't based on this specific post. It's not like you don't have a history here. It's what's been presented to me in your posts collectively over time and it's all I have to go on. I'd love to be wrong about it

 

[dgreen]

In what way is it a legitimate concern? What do you mean by "demand" and how often do you think that happens?

I haven't done a scientific study of church practices, but the most recent numbers I've seen are that around 40% of evangelical pastors believe that tithing is required by the Bible. Is that no longer the case?

No idea. Whatever the % is, do you then assume that if the pastor believes that it's required then he "demands" (whatever that means) his members tithe?

Well, the spiritual leader of an organization (church) believes that tithing is required - in the same way that taking Jesus into your heart is required, in the same way that obeying the commandments is required.

Then he passes a gold bucket around the church, where you and your friends and neighbors in Christ can see who does and who doesn't follow the spiritual leader's teachings.

Yeah, I'll go with that being a demand.

I wouldn't consider that a demand, and certainly not a demand for the rest of your life, but I see what you are saying. Saying Jesus requires you give 10% and then passing around a bucket can be some pressure. Seems like a pretty easy problem to solve, though.

 

[Card Trader]

As you can see in this thread, Christians are pretty nutty, but that's to be expected when there isn't a possible way to prove what you believe. It can be scary as a parent to see this warping of your child, but if you keep a dialogue with them they'll eventually see how ridiculous it all is. It's also not bad that they learn the "other side".

Well Commish tells me that I shouldn't discuss with her because I'm too stupid or uninformed to do so and would only come off sounding like a global warming skeptic of the most moronic type.

Just let her go for a while, ask her about what she's learning. Go with her once (trust me once is enough!) so you can make sure they aren't too crazy. The problem is you can't argue with her, because the magic "F" word trumps any logical or scientifically proven fact you bring up. Just put seeds of doubt in her head without being combative.

 

[The Commish]

As you can see in this thread, Christians are pretty nutty, but that's to be expected when there isn't a possible way to prove what you believe. It can be scary as a parent to see this warping of your child, but if you keep a dialogue with them they'll eventually see how ridiculous it all is. It's also not bad that they learn the "other side".

Well Commish tells me that I shouldn't discuss with her because I'm too stupid or uninformed to do so and would only come off sounding like a global warming skeptic of the most moronic type.

yeah, i've never called you stupid

 

[timschochet]

Some pretty great people who have changed the world for good believed strongly in Jesus. Its really not a bad thing to be, even from the atheistic perspective. Its more the type of Christian that a person becomes that would be a cause for concern.

Hmm. this sounds pretty close to what I wrote in response to The Commish. I guess Jayrod doesn't know much about Christianity either.

 

[dgreen]

Ok I'm Christian just so you know. In your second paragraph you said they are free to believe. Yet now when they do, your thinking about squashing it. Let it run its course. Most Christians are good people believe it or not. Heck she may even convert you. Yes, she will probably worry you aren't going to heaven but that shouldn't bother you as you don't believe in heaven.

I'm divorced and Atheist. My ex-wife found religion after we split and is a very devout Baptist now.

My daughter (11.5) is very upset that we're not going to be in heaven together when we eventually die. When I said "If I live my life well and I am a good person, it shouldn't matter. If I'm wrong and there is a heaven, why wouldn't I get in there anyway?" and she came back the following day and said "My Mom said that you can't get into heaven until you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior."

That whole conversation bothers me on many different levels, even if I don't believe in heaven.

Would you mind expanding on this? I'm genuinely interested.

I have taken the approach her entire life of saying "You should focus on being a good person and listen to what people have to say about their religions. Go to church with your Mom. Ask questions. Be open-minded and when you get older, you'll figure it out for yourself."

I feel like, her Mom is scaring her with a "fire and brimstone" approach that isn't a fair trip to lay on a 10-11 year old kid. She is basically saying "Oh well. Your father is going to burn in hell for eternity." and I don't think it's fair for her to expect my kid to wrap her young mind around that.

So the primary concern is that she has this idea of Hell in her mind at such a young age and that she believes that's where you're going? I can understand that. Maybe ask her to talk about some of the positive aspects of her faith rather than the negative? Oh, and definitely a good idea to make sure her answers don't start with "Mom says...". But, I'd also hope you don't want her answering questions with "Dad says..." either?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

This tithing discussion is weird. I agree with Henry that Commish's list of possible outcomes was far from exhaustive, though. At the very least, there are these two options:

1) There is no God, but Tim's daughter is happy, well-adjusted, and empathetic so no harm, no foul.

2) There is no God. Tim's daughter is less empathetic and less likely to trust her moral intuition as opposed to church dogma. Tim may decide that a conversation is in order.

 

[Henry Ford]

"We don't demand the parishioners' money. They give it of their own free will once we explain that God commanded it and they will go to hell if they don't. Also, sometimes we send them letters to remind them that they're behind and kick them out of the church if they don't pay."

As a lawyer, Im sure you find it interesting that the letter wasnt shown in the article. They did manage to show a small portion of the letter with the signatures. Part of me thinks there was more to the letter and the story.

In any case, Ive never been to a church that knew how much money I made, so how would they know if I gave 10%? Furthermore, tons of people give cash. How is that accounted for? Finally, churches now have the ability to collect online donations, so whatever made up non-sense you are spewing about passing around the bucket and making sure your neighbors are giving is just that, non-sense.

Sorry, it was the first result.

Here's a better one.

Here's a copy of the letter.

I'm sure churches do have the ability to collect online donations. What percentage of donations to churches do you think those account for?

 

[Henry Ford]

In what way is it a legitimate concern? What do you mean by "demand" and how often do you think that happens?

I haven't done a scientific study of church practices, but the most recent numbers I've seen are that around 40% of evangelical pastors believe that tithing is required by the Bible. Is that no longer the case?

No idea. Whatever the % is, do you then assume that if the pastor believes that it's required then he "demands" (whatever that means) his members tithe?

Well, the spiritual leader of an organization (church) believes that tithing is required - in the same way that taking Jesus into your heart is required, in the same way that obeying the commandments is required.

Then he passes a gold bucket around the church, where you and your friends and neighbors in Christ can see who does and who doesn't follow the spiritual leader's teachings.

Yeah, I'll go with that being a demand.

I wouldn't consider that a demand, and certainly not a demand for the rest of your life, but I see what you are saying. Saying Jesus requires you give 10% and then passing around a bucket can be some pressure. Seems like a pretty easy problem to solve, though.

I agree. But it's a problem. The original point being that Commish's list was a bit short on the possibilities.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Brainwashing? Demanding tithes? Methods of enticing and influencing children?

You guys watch too many movies.

Or maybe we were raised with religion.

 

[Cjw_55106]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

If your kid needs religion to be a better person you ####ing failed as a parent.

no one said anything about "being a better person" but I agree 100%. If you're relying on religion to do that, you have problems.

What if they're problems that religion can solve?

Like?

Unless it was you personally, you have no idea. I didnt go through it personally myself, but I have to trust the thousands of people that claim God saved them from addiction after nothing else worked. When you have a guy like Brian "Head" Welch who was addicted to meth and suddenly quits and he gives credit to Jesus, how do explain that? Call him a liar?

 

[Henry Ford]

This tithing discussion is weird. I agree with Henry that Commish's list of possible outcomes was far from exhaustive, though. At the very least, there are these two options:

1) There is no God, but Tim's daughter is happy, well-adjusted, and empathetic so no harm, no foul.

2) There is no God. Tim's daughter is less empathetic and less likely to trust her moral intuition as opposed to church dogma. Tim may decide that a conversation is in order.

3. There is a God. Tim's daughter enjoys movie and candy night at the church and eventually this religion thing fades away in her life like Pokemon cards or Barbie dolls.

4. There is no God. Tim's daughter enjoys movie and candy night at the church and eventually this religion thing fades away in her life like Pokemon cards or Barbie dolls.

 

[McGarnicle]

I think you have to give her some latitude to learn about this stuff on her own, but I'd still do my best to put facts out there so that she has a counterpoint. The usual stuff -- poor/nonexistent evidence of a historical Jesus, issues with the authorship of the gospels, all the Christmas/salvation mythology being copied from older myths, etc. Try to create a distinction in her mind between all the happy feel-good stuff, and factual evidence. That's not going to be easy though, and it's going to require tact and patience. You're walking a tightrope since her friends are into it and they all seem really nice and the indoctrination is already underway. If they start telling her you're going to hell and drive a wedge between her and her family, then it reaches a tipping point and hopefully she makes the right choice. Good luck man, sounds awful.

 

[The Commish]

This tithing discussion is weird. I agree with Henry that Commish's list of possible outcomes was far from exhaustive, though. At the very least, there are these two options:

1) There is no God, but Tim's daughter is happy, well-adjusted, and empathetic so no harm, no foul.

2) There is no God. Tim's daughter is less empathetic and less likely to trust her moral intuition as opposed to church dogma. Tim may decide that a conversation is in order.

Of course...it was very high level. And of course I agree with your #2 as well....any time you are following religion over God's work in your heart, there's going to be a problem. That's the reason for me posting my #2 in the first place.

 

[The Commish]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

If your kid needs religion to be a better person you ####ing failed as a parent.

no one said anything about "being a better person" but I agree 100%. If you're relying on religion to do that, you have problems.

What if they're problems that religion can solve?

Like?

Unless it was you personally, you have no idea. I didnt go through it personally myself, but I have to trust the thousands of people that claim God saved them from addiction after nothing else worked. When you have a guy like Brian "Head" Welch who was addicted to meth and suddenly quits and he gives credit to Jesus, how do explain that? Call him a liar?

That's God, not religion. A distinction frequently overlooked here in the FFA that causes a ton of confusion.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

If your kid needs religion to be a better person you ####ing failed as a parent.

no one said anything about "being a better person" but I agree 100%. If you're relying on religion to do that, you have problems.

What if they're problems that religion can solve?

Like what?

You honestly think that nothing good can come out of finding religion?

I'd love to see the list of things that religion can solve but would be otherwise unsolvable.

Didn't say that either.

So why use religion to solve them then?

 

[Cjw_55106]

"We don't demand the parishioners' money. They give it of their own free will once we explain that God commanded it and they will go to hell if they don't. Also, sometimes we send them letters to remind them that they're behind and kick them out of the church if they don't pay."

As a lawyer, Im sure you find it interesting that the letter wasnt shown in the article. They did manage to show a small portion of the letter with the signatures. Part of me thinks there was more to the letter and the story.

In any case, Ive never been to a church that knew how much money I made, so how would they know if I gave 10%? Furthermore, tons of people give cash. How is that accounted for? Finally, churches now have the ability to collect online donations, so whatever made up non-sense you are spewing about passing around the bucket and making sure your neighbors are giving is just that, non-sense.

Sorry, it was the first result.

Here's a better one.

Here's a copy of the letter.

I'm sure churches do have the ability to collect online donations. What percentage of donations to churches do you think those account for?

Thank you for the re-post. It seems she didnt give money, nor participate so they removed her from the "active member" list. Non-members are always welcomed at every single church Ive ever been to. If one is not contributing, as they say, time, talent or treasure, why would they expect to be "active" members?

I have no clue as to how many people give on-line. I certainly wouldnt think anything about a guy sitting next to me not donating.

 

[Cjw_55106]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

If your kid needs religion to be a better person you ####ing failed as a parent.

no one said anything about "being a better person" but I agree 100%. If you're relying on religion to do that, you have problems.

What if they're problems that religion can solve?

Like?

Unless it was you personally, you have no idea. I didnt go through it personally myself, but I have to trust the thousands of people that claim God saved them from addiction after nothing else worked. When you have a guy like Brian "Head" Welch who was addicted to meth and suddenly quits and he gives credit to Jesus, how do explain that? Call him a liar?

That's God, not religion. A distinction frequently overlooked here in the FFA that causes a ton of confusion.

Fair enough, but for many people, they go hand in hand.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

If your kid needs religion to be a better person you ####ing failed as a parent.

no one said anything about "being a better person" but I agree 100%. If you're relying on religion to do that, you have problems.

What if they're problems that religion can solve?

Like what?

You honestly think that nothing good can come out of finding religion?

I'd love to see the list of things that religion can solve but would be otherwise unsolvable.

Didn't say that either.

So why use religion to solve them then?

Why not?If someone gets off drugs because of religious, not secular, means why fires it matter? Same for vice versa.

 

[CBusAlex]

I'd tell her she's not allowed to go, then respond to any further attempts to discuss the topic by throwing up the horns and hissing at her.

 

[Henry Ford]

"We don't demand the parishioners' money. They give it of their own free will once we explain that God commanded it and they will go to hell if they don't. Also, sometimes we send them letters to remind them that they're behind and kick them out of the church if they don't pay."

As a lawyer, Im sure you find it interesting that the letter wasnt shown in the article. They did manage to show a small portion of the letter with the signatures. Part of me thinks there was more to the letter and the story.

In any case, Ive never been to a church that knew how much money I made, so how would they know if I gave 10%? Furthermore, tons of people give cash. How is that accounted for? Finally, churches now have the ability to collect online donations, so whatever made up non-sense you are spewing about passing around the bucket and making sure your neighbors are giving is just that, non-sense.

Sorry, it was the first result.

Here's a better one.

Here's a copy of the letter.

I'm sure churches do have the ability to collect online donations. What percentage of donations to churches do you think those account for?

Thank you for the re-post. It seems she didnt give money, nor participate so they removed her from the "active member" list. Non-members are always welcomed at every single church Ive ever been to. If one is not contributing, as they say, time, talent or treasure, why would they expect to be "active" members?

I have no clue as to how many people give on-line. I certainly wouldnt think anything about a guy sitting next to me not donating.

The last sentence of the letter you wanted to see says "...is no longer a member of the First African Baptist Church of Bainbridge, Georgia, nor able to or expected to participate in any engagements, worship opportunities ..."

Seems pretty messed up.

 

[Jayrod]

sweet sig

 

[Cjw_55106]

"We don't demand the parishioners' money. They give it of their own free will once we explain that God commanded it and they will go to hell if they don't. Also, sometimes we send them letters to remind them that they're behind and kick them out of the church if they don't pay."

As a lawyer, Im sure you find it interesting that the letter wasnt shown in the article. They did manage to show a small portion of the letter with the signatures. Part of me thinks there was more to the letter and the story.

In any case, Ive never been to a church that knew how much money I made, so how would they know if I gave 10%? Furthermore, tons of people give cash. How is that accounted for? Finally, churches now have the ability to collect online donations, so whatever made up non-sense you are spewing about passing around the bucket and making sure your neighbors are giving is just that, non-sense.

Sorry, it was the first result.

Here's a better one.

Here's a copy of the letter.

I'm sure churches do have the ability to collect online donations. What percentage of donations to churches do you think those account for?

Thank you for the re-post. It seems she didnt give money, nor participate so they removed her from the "active member" list. Non-members are always welcomed at every single church Ive ever been to. If one is not contributing, as they say, time, talent or treasure, why would they expect to be "active" members?

I have no clue as to how many people give on-line. I certainly wouldnt think anything about a guy sitting next to me not donating.

The last sentence of the letter you wanted to see says "...is no longer a member of the First African Baptist Church of Bainbridge, Georgia, nor able to or expected to participate in any engagements, worship opportunities ..."

Seems pretty messed up.

I would agree, that isnt right.

 

[Jayrod]

"We don't demand the parishioners' money. They give it of their own free will once we explain that God commanded it and they will go to hell if they don't. Also, sometimes we send them letters to remind them that they're behind and kick them out of the church if they don't pay."

As a lawyer, Im sure you find it interesting that the letter wasnt shown in the article. They did manage to show a small portion of the letter with the signatures. Part of me thinks there was more to the letter and the story.

In any case, Ive never been to a church that knew how much money I made, so how would they know if I gave 10%? Furthermore, tons of people give cash. How is that accounted for? Finally, churches now have the ability to collect online donations, so whatever made up non-sense you are spewing about passing around the bucket and making sure your neighbors are giving is just that, non-sense.

Sorry, it was the first result.

Here's a better one.

Here's a copy of the letter.

I'm sure churches do have the ability to collect online donations. What percentage of donations to churches do you think those account for?

Thank you for the re-post. It seems she didnt give money, nor participate so they removed her from the "active member" list. Non-members are always welcomed at every single church Ive ever been to. If one is not contributing, as they say, time, talent or treasure, why would they expect to be "active" members?

I have no clue as to how many people give on-line. I certainly wouldnt think anything about a guy sitting next to me not donating.

The last sentence of the letter you wanted to see says "...is no longer a member of the First African Baptist Church of Bainbridge, Georgia, nor able to or expected to participate in any engagements, worship opportunities ..."

Seems pretty messed up.

That is messed up.

 

[McGarnicle]

I'd tell her she's not allowed to go, then respond to any further attempts to discuss the topic by throwing up the horns and hissing at her.

 

[Chadstroma]

I will post from a perspective that you may or may not find useful.

My perspective: I grew up with limited church interactions. I would not say that I was an atheist per se but more agnostic than anything with the open concession that God very well may not exist just as much as he might. I remember having more than a couple of conversations in my youth mocking Christians for their beliefs in various areas.

In H.S. a friend of mine 'had' to go to his families churches youth group. He did not want to go alone so he asked me to go. I had no interest in it but another friend of ours went with him. They come back telling me that there were a bunch of hot chicks there so the following week- I was there. It was fun and there were hot chicks so we kept going. About 6 months later there was a summer camp trip and again I went looking for hot chicks. While there I came into a personal relationship with Christ. My whole world changed.

My family members ranged from agnostic to apathetic atheist to even 'enthusiastically' atheist. As I interacted and grew in my faith- there was a huge fear for me in how I handled this with my family members. My grandfather who was the family member who I would describe as 'enthusiastically' atheist is a family member I was very close to and the most fearful of when it came to my faith. All my family members, including my grandfather, pretty much respected my faith and no one challenged me or caused drama over it. I think because of how close we are my grandfather basically took the position of 'whatever makes you happy' but this was only briefly discussed once. Although there was never any drama over my families views- I think my fear caused problems on my side. I would not share certain things out of fear of upsetting someone. I did not ask them to come to certain events because of fear of causing problems. So, in some aspects, it took the closest people out of a huge part of my life. I regret that in terms of allowing that fear to change aspects of our relationships.

I also saw kids go through things that were not as good as my own experience. Where family members actively tried to stop their faith- keep them from church and so forth. It was a horrible experience for the kids and really caused major problems with the relationships between them and their families. I don't know of any of them that it changed their faith.

My advice: She knows your position. She loves you. She is developing her own faith. Interact with her and be willing to be a part of that with her even if you do not believe yourself. There really is nothing much you can do to make her stop believing but there is plenty you can do to hurt the relationship. But even if you don't do anything to try to stop it- you could be missing out on a big part of her life as she moves forward if you just let it be her thing and don't interact with her on that level.

 

[timschochet]

I will post from a perspective that you may or may not find useful.

My perspective: I grew up with limited church interactions. I would not say that I was an atheist per se but more agnostic than anything with the open concession that God very well may not exist just as much as he might. I remember having more than a couple of conversations in my youth mocking Christians for their beliefs in various areas.

In H.S. a friend of mine 'had' to go to his families churches youth group. He did not want to go alone so he asked me to go. I had no interest in it but another friend of ours went with him. They come back telling me that there were a bunch of hot chicks there so the following week- I was there. It was fun and there were hot chicks so we kept going. About 6 months later there was a summer camp trip and again I went looking for hot chicks. While there I came into a personal relationship with Christ. My whole world changed.

My family members ranged from agnostic to apathetic atheist to even 'enthusiastically' atheist. As I interacted and grew in my faith- there was a huge fear for me in how I handled this with my family members. My grandfather who was the family member who I would describe as 'enthusiastically' atheist is a family member I was very close to and the most fearful of when it came to my faith. All my family members, including my grandfather, pretty much respected my faith and no one challenged me or caused drama over it. I think because of how close we are my grandfather basically took the position of 'whatever makes you happy' but this was only briefly discussed once. Although there was never any drama over my families views- I think my fear caused problems on my side. I would not share certain things out of fear of upsetting someone. I did not ask them to come to certain events because of fear of causing problems. So, in some aspects, it took the closest people out of a huge part of my life. I regret that in terms of allowing that fear to change aspects of our relationships.

I also saw kids go through things that were not as good as my own experience. Where family members actively tried to stop their faith- keep them from church and so forth. It was a horrible experience for the kids and really caused major problems with the relationships between them and their families. I don't know of any of them that it changed their faith.

My advice: She knows your position. She loves you. She is developing her own faith. Interact with her and be willing to be a part of that with her even if you do not believe yourself. There really is nothing much you can do to make her stop believing but there is plenty you can do to hurt the relationship. But even if you don't do anything to try to stop it- you could be missing out on a big part of her life as she moves forward if you just let it be her thing and don't interact with her on that level.

Chad, great post and I really appreciate the thoughtful feedback.

 

[dgreen]

"We don't demand the parishioners' money. They give it of their own free will once we explain that God commanded it and they will go to hell if they don't. Also, sometimes we send them letters to remind them that they're behind and kick them out of the church if they don't pay."

As a lawyer, Im sure you find it interesting that the letter wasnt shown in the article. They did manage to show a small portion of the letter with the signatures. Part of me thinks there was more to the letter and the story.

In any case, Ive never been to a church that knew how much money I made, so how would they know if I gave 10%? Furthermore, tons of people give cash. How is that accounted for? Finally, churches now have the ability to collect online donations, so whatever made up non-sense you are spewing about passing around the bucket and making sure your neighbors are giving is just that, non-sense.

Sorry, it was the first result.

Here's a better one.

Here's a copy of the letter.

I'm sure churches do have the ability to collect online donations. What percentage of donations to churches do you think those account for?

My church is around 30% of the total revenue is from online donations. The vast majority are checks with only a few % in cash.

 

[spreagle]

Ok I'm Christian just so you know. In your second paragraph you said they are free to believe. Yet now when they do, your thinking about squashing it. Let it run its course. Most Christians are good people believe it or not. Heck she may even convert you. Yes, she will probably worry you aren't going to heaven but that shouldn't bother you as you don't believe in heaven.

I'm divorced and Atheist. My ex-wife found religion after we split and is a very devout Baptist now.

My daughter (11.5) is very upset that we're not going to be in heaven together when we eventually die. When I said "If I live my life well and I am a good person, it shouldn't matter. If I'm wrong and there is a heaven, why wouldn't I get in there anyway?" and she came back the following day and said "My Mom said that you can't get into heaven until you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior."

That whole conversation bothers me on many different levels, even if I don't believe in heaven.

Would you mind expanding on this? I'm genuinely interested.

I have taken the approach her entire life of saying "You should focus on being a good person and listen to what people have to say about their religions. Go to church with your Mom. Ask questions. Be open-minded and when you get older, you'll figure it out for yourself."

I feel like, her Mom is scaring her with a "fire and brimstone" approach that isn't a fair trip to lay on a 10-11 year old kid. She is basically saying "Oh well. Your father is going to burn in hell for eternity." and I don't think it's fair for her to expect my kid to wrap her young mind around that.

I can't understand the "burn in hell in eternity" threat either. Seems like eventually you'd get used to burning and maybe even grow to enjoy the sensation of burning. As an Earthly example, I've owned Christian Michael and been burned for what seems like an eternity and eventually I've grown to actually like it and can't imagine not having Michael on my roster to burn me.

 

[The Commish]

Fair enough, but for many people, they go hand in hand.

But they shouldn't. And if people insist that they do, I have a hard time believing they are interested in any sort of meaningful dialogue. There is a significant difference.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Agnostic (UU) here, and we tell my two daughters the same thing. If you mean it, you have to let her explore. Make sure she isnt being improperly influenced, but give her the freedom to decide for herself.

You in the DC area?

Yep

 

[tommyboy]

I agree with FGIALC, go with her once to see what kind of church it is.

Although then you might have to go to another as comparison if you've never been to many Christian services.

You should probably go every Sunday to lots of different churches, just to test them out

 

[Dan Lambskin]

I agree you have to let her make her own choices but be prepared to end up with a kooky daughter that lets her religion completely influence her beliefs and not be open minded about anything in the future

 

[mr roboto]

I really wish I could have attended some of these hyper controlling Strawman Baptist churches. Sounds like some fertile ground for making money. . Guess the 25 or so congregations I've either attended or know personally the pastors and leaders are really missing out on all the big money racketeering.

 

[The Commish]

I really wish I could have attended some of these hyper controlling Strawman Baptist churches. Sounds like some fertile ground for making money. . Guess the 25 or so congregations I've either attended or know personally the pastors and leaders are really missing out on all the big money racketeering.

I've been to one or two....even stumbled into a snake handling church....that was a hoot.

 

[McGarnicle]

Ok I'm Christian just so you know. In your second paragraph you said they are free to believe. Yet now when they do, your thinking about squashing it. Let it run its course. Most Christians are good people believe it or not. Heck she may even convert you. Yes, she will probably worry you aren't going to heaven but that shouldn't bother you as you don't believe in heaven.

I'm divorced and Atheist. My ex-wife found religion after we split and is a very devout Baptist now.

My daughter (11.5) is very upset that we're not going to be in heaven together when we eventually die. When I said "If I live my life well and I am a good person, it shouldn't matter. If I'm wrong and there is a heaven, why wouldn't I get in there anyway?" and she came back the following day and said "My Mom said that you can't get into heaven until you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior."

That whole conversation bothers me on many different levels, even if I don't believe in heaven.

Would you mind expanding on this? I'm genuinely interested.

I have taken the approach her entire life of saying "You should focus on being a good person and listen to what people have to say about their religions. Go to church with your Mom. Ask questions. Be open-minded and when you get older, you'll figure it out for yourself."

I feel like, her Mom is scaring her with a "fire and brimstone" approach that isn't a fair trip to lay on a 10-11 year old kid. She is basically saying "Oh well. Your father is going to burn in hell for eternity." and I don't think it's fair for her to expect my kid to wrap her young mind around that.

I can't understand the "burn in hell in eternity" threat either. Seems like eventually you'd get used to burning and maybe even grow to enjoy the sensation of burning. As an Earthly example, I've owned Christian Michael and been burned for what seems like an eternity and eventually I've grown to actually like it and can't imagine not having Michael on my roster to burn me.

 

[comfortably numb]

I told my daughter she is free to date any boy regardless of color.

She brought home a black kid.

What should I do?

 

[CBusAlex]

I told my daughter she is free to date any boy regardless of color.

She brought home a black kid.

What should I do?

I'd tell her she's not allowed to go, then respond to any further attempts to discuss the topic by throwing up the horns and hissing at her.

 

[timschochet]

Again, I appreciate all of the thoughtful responses. I'm going to let this play out. I'm not sure, at this point, that I want to discuss it with her. If she wants to discuss it with me, fine. But in my entire life I have never put myself in the position of trying to convince a religious person as to why I am an atheist, (at least outside of the internet; here anything goes) and I really prefer not to start with my daughter. As some people have noted, religion really comes down to faith anyhow, and how can one argue faith?

I'm also not comfortable at this point with the idea of going with her to the church. I'm not sure what purpose that would serve. I don't want to giver her the idea that I'd be open to becoming Christian, nor do I want to appear disapproving. The church seems religious (along the lines of a Calvary Chapel) but it doesn't seem cultish.

I guess we'll just see where this all goes...

 

[Henry Ford]

I really wish I could have attended some of these hyper controlling Strawman Baptist churches. Sounds like some fertile ground for making money. . Guess the 25 or so congregations I've either attended or know personally the pastors and leaders are really missing out on all the big money racketeering.

Yeah. I also didn't check out my kids' day cares before sending them there, because it's such a low chance that it's run by someone who treats kids like ####. I figure, send 'em there and stop worrying. The chance that it's a bad environment for my kid is low enough that I shouldn't bother to be concerned.