"I think John Gruden is a SCUMBAG" (1 Viewer)

[Ron_Mexico]

Jan. 27 - 9:48 pm et - Rotoworld

Former Bucs DE Simeon Rice joined in the ripping of fired coach Jon Gruden in an interview with Sirius NFL Radio Tuesday.

"When Chris (Simms) damn near died on the field, he wanted to release him," said Rice. "I get hurt, my shoulder’s torn off the bone. This dude releases me. The list goes on. Keenan McCardell...Keyshawn Johnson...Joey Galloway...Brad Johnson...Jeff Garcia. I think Gruden is a scumbag."

.

 

[msommer]

I think Simeon is probably right

ETA: That obviously says nothing sbout the ability to coach or evaluate return on (future?) investment. It is about personality, only.

 

[Jason Wood]

Wow...that is indeed illuminating. It will be very interesting to see if Gruden is black listed from head coaching again; I've heard several people make the case he might be. I would love to have been a fly on the wall in Tampa to see some of the things that went on.

 

[Sinrman]

Well, I can understand it's personal for Rice. But hey, it's a business. All teams and coaches do it. Some might be a little more careful and nice about it, but they still do it. What good does a player who continuously gets injured do your team?

 

[mad sweeney]

What was it that Simeon Rice said about Tilman? I don't think he should be calling anyone else a scumbag.

 

[PewterFan]

Nobody else really picked him up after he was released, so I don't see what the problem is here. Rice isn't the best example of Gruden doing a player wrong.

 

[PatrickT]

What was it that Simeon Rice said about Tilman? I don't think he should be calling anyone else a scumbag.

Didn't know what you were talking about, so I googled it. Seems like Rice made good on whatever he said, unless I'm missing something.Rice: I mourn him

Nobody else really picked him up after he was released, so I don't see what the problem is here. Rice isn't the best example of Gruden doing a player wrong.

The beef is not THAT he let him go, it was HOW he let him go. I'm not making a case either way, but I caught part of that interview on Sirius and he gave a list of players that Gruden basically treated like dirt, were told one thing, then the opposite was done, were ignored, were mistreated due to injury, etc.Again, not making a case, just stating what Rice said.

 

[gump]

There seems to be a pattern forming here.

Yesterday, Pro Bowl OG Davin Joseph on Jim Rome said when asked about Clayton's quote on Gruden something close to "that's not true. Most of the players loved Gruden. He's a players coach." Derrick Brooks and Ronde Barber has echoed these sentiments.

Then you have the comments from Garcia, Clayton, and Rice.

I have been saying for years that there has to be some truth to the rumors we've been hearing in Tampa about Gruden's poor way of dealing with people in certain situations and his immaturity. We are seeing now more proof of that. But clearly it's with a certain type of person as well...the type of person who also needs to look in the mirror about their own ability to deal with certain situations and their maturity.

I think Gruden will learn to work better with malcontents, mature, and be a better coach for it going forward.

 

[PewterFan]

What was it that Simeon Rice said about Tilman? I don't think he should be calling anyone else a scumbag.

Didn't know what you were talking about, so I googled it. Seems like Rice made good on whatever he said, unless I'm missing something.Rice: I mourn him

Nobody else really picked him up after he was released, so I don't see what the problem is here. Rice isn't the best example of Gruden doing a player wrong.

The beef is not THAT he let him go, it was HOW he let him go. I'm not making a case either way, but I caught part of that interview on Sirius and he gave a list of players that Gruden basically treated like dirt, were told one thing, then the opposite was done, were ignored, were mistreated due to injury, etc.Again, not making a case, just stating what Rice said.

You're right.

 

[PatrickT]

There seems to be a pattern forming here.Yesterday, Pro Bowl OG Davin Joseph on Jim Rome said when asked about Clayton's quote on Gruden something close to "that's not true. Most of the players loved Gruden. He's a players coach." Derrick Brooks and Ronde Barber has echoed these sentiments.Then you have the comments from Garcia, Clayton, and Rice.I have been saying for years that there has to be some truth to the rumors we've been hearing in Tampa about Gruden's poor way of dealing with people in certain situations and his immaturity. We are seeing now more proof of that. But clearly it's with a certain type of person as well...the type of person who also needs to look in the mirror about their own ability to deal with certain situations and their maturity.I think Gruden will learn to work better with malcontents, mature, and be a better coach for it going forward.

You could well be right, but Garcia hardly strikes me as a malcontent and is a pretty public example of what Rice was talking about. But, it's a valid point about other players praising Gruden. Maybe he doesn't handle personality conflicts well.

 

[thatguy]

Sounds like some Gruden is just what the doctor ordered for TO. That would not end well.

 

[Wadsworth]

There seems to be a pattern forming here.

Yesterday, Pro Bowl OG Davin Joseph on Jim Rome said when asked about Clayton's quote on Gruden something close to "that's not true. Most of the players loved Gruden. He's a players coach." Derrick Brooks and Ronde Barber has echoed these sentiments.

Then you have the comments from Garcia, Clayton, and Rice.

I have been saying for years that there has to be some truth to the rumors we've been hearing in Tampa about Gruden's poor way of dealing with people in certain situations and his immaturity. We are seeing now more proof of that. But clearly it's with a certain type of person as well...the type of person who also needs to look in the mirror about their own ability to deal with certain situations and their maturity.

I think Gruden will learn to work better with malcontents, mature, and be a better coach for it going forward.

You could well be right, but Garcia hardly strikes me as a malcontent and is a pretty public example of what Rice was talking about. But, it's a valid point about other players praising Gruden. Maybe he doesn't handle personality conflicts well.

Parcell, Belicheck, and Coughlin among others have been accused of having similar problems with players, but as long as they win no one seems to care, including most of the players. We've seen it here in Jacksonville where Del Rio has run off a string of good players because he can't get along with them. No one cared about how he handled personality conflicts when they beat Pitt in the post season and played well against New England. Jump foward one 5-11 season and it's a pretty big issue around town.

 

[Twilight]

Of alll the pro athlete/coaches I've met in person, Gruden still stands out as the biggest ****. I have zero surprise that players are revealing their feelings about him now that he is out of Tampa.

 

[Phurfur]

What was it that Simeon Rice said about Tilman? I don't think he should be calling anyone else a scumbag.

Didn't know what you were talking about, so I googled it. Seems like Rice made good on whatever he said, unless I'm missing something.Rice: I mourn him

Nobody else really picked him up after he was released, so I don't see what the problem is here. Rice isn't the best example of Gruden doing a player wrong.

The beef is not THAT he let him go, it was HOW he let him go. I'm not making a case either way, but I caught part of that interview on Sirius and he gave a list of players that Gruden basically treated like dirt, were told one thing, then the opposite was done, were ignored, were mistreated due to injury, etc.Again, not making a case, just stating what Rice said.

Welcome to the real world, some of these players need to grow a pair. There is nothing worse than a bunch of whining millionaires. JMO

 

[Max Power]

Rice: I mourn him

Did anyone else catch the statistical error in that article?I missed this when it happened, but I wouldn't call Rice a Scumbag for saying what he said.

 

[mozzy84]

What was it that Simeon Rice said about Tilman? I don't think he should be calling anyone else a scumbag.

Didn't know what you were talking about, so I googled it. Seems like Rice made good on whatever he said, unless I'm missing something.Rice: I mourn him

Nobody else really picked him up after he was released, so I don't see what the problem is here. Rice isn't the best example of Gruden doing a player wrong.

The beef is not THAT he let him go, it was HOW he let him go. I'm not making a case either way, but I caught part of that interview on Sirius and he gave a list of players that Gruden basically treated like dirt, were told one thing, then the opposite was done, were ignored, were mistreated due to injury, etc.Again, not making a case, just stating what Rice said.

Welcome to the real world, some of these players need to grow a pair. There is nothing worse than a bunch of whining millionaires. JMO

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

I used to attend the Lions luncheon put on by the Econ Club of Detroit (haven't for the last two years). One time I sat with two former TBAY front office types at my table when Rod Mar came to DET his first year. These two had nothing nice to say about Gruden and how he treated people/players.

 

[QUEZILLA]

There seems to be a pattern forming here.Yesterday, Pro Bowl OG Davin Joseph on Jim Rome said when asked about Clayton's quote on Gruden something close to "that's not true. Most of the players loved Gruden. He's a players coach." Derrick Brooks and Ronde Barber has echoed these sentiments.Then you have the comments from Garcia, Clayton, and Rice.I have been saying for years that there has to be some truth to the rumors we've been hearing in Tampa about Gruden's poor way of dealing with people in certain situations and his immaturity. We are seeing now more proof of that. But clearly it's with a certain type of person as well...the type of person who also needs to look in the mirror about their own ability to deal with certain situations and their maturity.I think Gruden will learn to work better with malcontents, mature, and be a better coach for it going forward.

Guys who have said good things about Gruden,-Davin Joseph-D. Brooks-Barber-Antonio Bryant-Warrick DunnGuys who have said bad things about Gruden,-Michael Clayton-Simeon Rice-Keyshawn Johnson-Keenan McCardell-Jeff Garcia-Warren SappThere may be a few guys that I missed, and there are probably some guys who haven't made their feelings public. The interesting thing about all of these guys is the time they made these comments. The first group all made the positive comments coming off of a good season. The 2nd list made their comments during a low point in their career. -Clayton did better this year, but nothing special. He bashed him the night he got fired, and pretty much blamed him for sucking for the majority of his career. -Simeon Rice bashed him because we wouldn't keep paying him millions while he was injured. He went on to get cut by Denver, and Indy. -Keyshawn was always over rated. One of the best moves Bruce Allen made was hosing Dallas for him.-Keenan was old, and obviously towards the end of his career. -Garcia showed at the end of the season that he wasn't that great of a QB.-Sapp got pissed that the Bucs didn't talk to him when he became a FA, but at that time we were cap heavy, and he was at the end of his career as well. He never put up the sack numbers in Oakland as he did in TB.-Galloway never said anything in the open, but there was beef there as well.

 

[QUEZILLA]

RB coach Art Valero bashed Gruden to Pewter Report when he left. He promised him a job title, and then brought someone else in.

 

[Wadsworth]

There seems to be a pattern forming here.

Yesterday, Pro Bowl OG Davin Joseph on Jim Rome said when asked about Clayton's quote on Gruden something close to "that's not true. Most of the players loved Gruden. He's a players coach." Derrick Brooks and Ronde Barber has echoed these sentiments.

Then you have the comments from Garcia, Clayton, and Rice.

I have been saying for years that there has to be some truth to the rumors we've been hearing in Tampa about Gruden's poor way of dealing with people in certain situations and his immaturity. We are seeing now more proof of that. But clearly it's with a certain type of person as well...the type of person who also needs to look in the mirror about their own ability to deal with certain situations and their maturity.

I think Gruden will learn to work better with malcontents, mature, and be a better coach for it going forward.

Guys who have said good things about Gruden,

-Davin Joseph

-D. Brooks

-Barber

-Antonio Bryant

-Warrick Dunn

Guys who have said bad things about Gruden,

-Michael Clayton

-Simeon Rice

-Keyshawn Johnson

-Keenan McCardell

-Jeff Garcia

-Warren Sapp

There may be a few guys that I missed, and there are probably some guys who haven't made their feelings public. The interesting thing about all of these guys is the time they made these comments. The first group all made the positive comments coming off of a good season. The 2nd list made their comments during a low point in their career.

-Clayton did better this year, but nothing special. He bashed him the night he got fired, and pretty much blamed him for sucking for the majority of his career.

-Simeon Rice bashed him because we wouldn't keep paying him millions while he was injured. He went on to get cut by Denver, and Indy.

-Keyshawn was always over rated. One of the best moves Bruce Allen made was hosing Dallas for him.

-Keenan was old, and obviously towards the end of his career.

-Garcia showed at the end of the season that he wasn't that great of a QB.

-Sapp got pissed that the Bucs didn't talk to him when he became a FA, but at that time we were cap heavy, and he was at the end of his career as well. He never put up the sack numbers in Oakland as he did in TB.

-Galloway never said anything in the open, but there was beef there as well.

Antonio Bryant's opinion about whether someone is a jerk has value? And the rest of the guys on that good list are guys that Gruden kept, which means that it's more likely Gruden didn't break promises to them or treat them as poorly. Beyond that it's hard to get Brooks and Dunn to say something bad about anyone.

Keenan was getting old. But his bone with Gruden if I recall was that he was unhappy with his deal and Gruden told him to not make trouble short term and Gruden would make sure he got his money with a reworked contract. Gruden then changed his mind. Keenan being old doesn't mean it doesn't matter if you lie to him.

I think the bolded part says more than the rest of the post.

 

[gump]

Beyond that it's hard to get Brooks and Dunn to say something bad about anyone.

There are two sides to everything. One side is that Brooks and Dunn are good guys and are either going to say something positive or nothing at all. Another side is that Brooks and Dunn are mature and understand the world better than young punks who think they are owed something for being so great all their lives.Dunn certainly didn't hold back on Bobby Petrino.I'll also add that I've spoken to Rice's ex-position coach previously...he ripped him. Called him an arrogant 1-trick pony.We could go on and on...bottom line I think is Gruden certainly needs to improve his people skills. But there are some exaggerations out there as well.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

What was it that Simeon Rice said about Tilman? I don't think he should be calling anyone else a scumbag.

Didn't know what you were talking about, so I googled it. Seems like Rice made good on whatever he said, unless I'm missing something.Rice: I mourn him

Nobody else really picked him up after he was released, so I don't see what the problem is here. Rice isn't the best example of Gruden doing a player wrong.

The beef is not THAT he let him go, it was HOW he let him go. I'm not making a case either way, but I caught part of that interview on Sirius and he gave a list of players that Gruden basically treated like dirt, were told one thing, then the opposite was done, were ignored, were mistreated due to injury, etc.Again, not making a case, just stating what Rice said.

Welcome to the real world, some of these players need to grow a pair. There is nothing worse than a bunch of whining millionaires. JMO

 

[PatrickT]

What was it that Simeon Rice said about Tilman? I don't think he should be calling anyone else a scumbag.

Didn't know what you were talking about, so I googled it. Seems like Rice made good on whatever he said, unless I'm missing something.Rice: I mourn him

Nobody else really picked him up after he was released, so I don't see what the problem is here. Rice isn't the best example of Gruden doing a player wrong.

The beef is not THAT he let him go, it was HOW he let him go. I'm not making a case either way, but I caught part of that interview on Sirius and he gave a list of players that Gruden basically treated like dirt, were told one thing, then the opposite was done, were ignored, were mistreated due to injury, etc.Again, not making a case, just stating what Rice said.

Welcome to the real world, some of these players need to grow a pair. There is nothing worse than a bunch of whining millionaires. JMO

Under a lot of circumstances, I'd agree with you. But sometimes we get a little too caught up in the image and forget that these are just men, just like us, and would like to be treated as such. Petrino and the Falcons come instantly to mind. And, if Gruden really did what they claim, i.e. lied to them, promised them something and failed to deliver, degraded them for having the audacity to get hurt, and generally treated them like meat, well, I don't think it's whining.

 

[massraider]

Beyond that it's hard to get Brooks and Dunn to say something bad about anyone.

There are two sides to everything. One side is that Brooks and Dunn are good guys and are either going to say something positive or nothing at all. Another side is that Brooks and Dunn are mature and understand the world better than young punks who think they are owed something for being so great all their lives.

Young punks? Some of these guys aren't very young.If Gruden does have a pattern, it seems to be dishonesty. Players are being rather vocal about being mistreated, and we see coaches get fired all the time, and don't hear these comments. Something seems to be different about this guy. The backing of Gru by some players doesn't mean much to me. No one is expecting EVERY player to hate Gruden. But as the number of players that badmouth him rise, it kind of lends a bit more credibility to the notion that his player relationship skills leave a LOT to be desired.

Welcome to the real world, some of these players need to grow a pair. There is nothing worse than a bunch of whining millionaires. JMO

This has always been a dumb argument. First of all, anyone in any job would complain if they were mistreated. Second, are they whining, or are they answering questions from writers that are trying to get a sense of how despised Gruden was? Did all of these players run to the media? Or does it matter? I don't think it does. I think some people are just so bitter and petty that they don't want to hear that some NFL people aren't living the dream.

 

[Matt Waldman]

Just an observation about stars getting injured and Gruden not treating them well...Gruden seemed to be very much in Cadillac's corner when he went down and was never thought to play again, right?

I have no side on this Gruden thing, but wouldn't this show something different than what was alleged about him concerning injured players?

 

[massraider]

Just an observation about stars getting injured and Gruden not treating them well...Gruden seemed to be very much in Cadillac's corner when he went down and was never thought to play again, right?

I have no side on this Gruden thing, but wouldn't this show something different than what was alleged about him concerning injured players?

No, it would show something different that what was alleged about him concerning one injured player.His handling of his QBs is really what what makes him look bad. You gotta be a pretty scummy character for Jeff Garcia to be unhappy. And that is just the latest guy. The Simms thing is pretty indefensible.

 

[todisco1]

His handling of his QBs is really what what makes him look bad. You gotta be a pretty scummy character for Jeff Garcia to be unhappy. And that is just the latest guy. The Simms thing is pretty indefensible.

I dunno. Garcia's had a few quotes that seemed to be a little off. IIRC when they we're signing Griese he said something along that lines of "That's fine, he can go sit on the bench too." Just a tad obnoxious. Nothing major, though.The Simms thing is bizarre, though. No real defense for that, though was Gruden in complete control of the situation or did the owner/GM have any say?

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Every time I read one of these quotes I wonder if there can be all this smoke and no fire. I mean, one malcontent or two, fine. But this is a number of players spanning a few years. None of them say he doesn't understand football; they all say he doesn't treat people well.

 

[teamroc]

Jan. 27 - 9:48 pm et - Rotoworld Former Bucs DE Simeon Rice joined in the ripping of fired coach Jon Gruden in an interview with Sirius NFL Radio Tuesday."When Chris (Simms) damn near died on the field, he wanted to release him," said Rice. "I get hurt, my shoulder’s torn off the bone. This dude releases me. The list goes on. Keenan McCardell...Keyshawn Johnson...Joey Galloway...Brad Johnson...Jeff Garcia. I think Gruden is a scumbag." .

Gruden was rice, Rice was done. Bronocs grabbed him and then cut him the same year. Sour grapes.

 

[BusMan]

link

Notes From Lombardi

FROM MICHAEL LOMBARDI:

17 January 2009

“The Curious Case of Why Jon Gruden was Fired”….

“Love you Bro” has been a familiar refrain here at the Post and on my old site when referring to Tampa Bay’s former head coach, Jon Gruden. The nickname is intended to poke a little fun at Gruden because no matter how long he has known someone or how much he might dislike a person, he always ends the conversation with “Love you, Bro.”

I first met Jon in 1997 when I was with the Eagles. I found him to be bright, energetic, and passionate, devoted to football, and someone I wanted to learn from and exchange ideas with. You could see he was going to be a head coach one day, and with his intelligence and fire, he would be great head coach. He would work his tail off at practice, devote hours to watching film and could communicate his message to the players in a unique style. He was fun to work with and fun to watch coach.

When I joined him in Oakland, I learned more about him as a person and coach. What came to the forefront was that Jon is never happy. He can never love his players — especially his quarterback. Jon always wants new, even when new is not necessarily better. He was instrumental in returning the Raiders to their glory days with the help of some key players, notably Rich Gannon, then went off to Tampa to have all the power and ability to run his own show. That’s where his downfall started.

In Tampa, his record is slightly above .500 (57-55). He’s a great sound bite for NFL Films, which has done a great job promoting the legend of Jon Gruden. The won-loss record doesn’t tell the whole story – it’s just numbers. Nevertheless, when you look at the core of the team, the foundation, Jon’s inability to truly “Love You, Bro” prevents him from being successful. He does not want to fall in love with any one player, and he is very hard on the players. (I promise you, Michael Clayton’s quotes were just the ones on the record; there were many similar to his that were off the record.)

I once referred to Gruden as the Larry Brown of the NFL. I meant that as a compliment because I love Brown, but when Brown, the well-traveled NBA coach, has control of the personnel on a team, he makes horrible decisions and hates the players he coaches. He wants new, but after new is over, he wants more new. Does that sound familiar?

From Brad Johnson to Chris Simms to Brian Griese to Luke McCown to Jeff Garcia, there was never stability at quarterback, the one position that is vital to a franchise. In addition, this is the one position that Gruden can coach as well as anyone in the league. Yet his refusal to fall in love (I called him the Warren Beatty of quarterbacks coaches a while back in a column) with a quarterback was his downfall in Tampa Bay.

We have all read the reaction of the players on the record — some positive, some negative — but the one consistent theme when you’re talking about Gruden is that he loves football, but loves NO players. The negativity and the inconsistent message to the players never seemed to go over well. Gruden is the type of coach that needs to have consistent turnover in his roster. He needs new players every year and might be best suited for college football since graduation and the NFL draft promote the change he craves.

When Tampa hired Gruden, the one thing it had to expect was solid and consistent quarterback play for the franchise. In theory, Gruden could select a talented young player, develop him into the cornerstone of the franchise and enjoy consistent seasons challenging for the Super Bowl. However, this is all theory, as Gruden on his own will never fall in love with one player at the position.

Unless the front office or the owner refuses to submit to his constant change, no development will take place. He is incapable of falling in love with anyone. Love you bro he don’t.

 

[Die]

There seems to be a pattern forming here.

Yesterday, Pro Bowl OG Davin Joseph on Jim Rome said when asked about Clayton's quote on Gruden something close to "that's not true. Most of the players loved Gruden. He's a players coach." Derrick Brooks and Ronde Barber has echoed these sentiments.

Then you have the comments from Garcia, Clayton, and Rice.

I have been saying for years that there has to be some truth to the rumors we've been hearing in Tampa about Gruden's poor way of dealing with people in certain situations and his immaturity. We are seeing now more proof of that. But clearly it's with a certain type of person as well...the type of person who also needs to look in the mirror about their own ability to deal with certain situations and their maturity.

I think Gruden will learn to work better with malcontents, mature, and be a better coach for it going forward.

You could well be right, but Garcia hardly strikes me as a malcontent.

Well Jeff Garcia was released by the 49ers and promptly got arrested for drunk driving. Jeff Garcia had a very public feud with Butch Davis in Cleveland.http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1991516

But Garcia never seemed to click with teammates and admitted to having a hard time adjusting to Cleveland's lifestyle after spending his entire life in Northern California.

During the exhibition season, the 34-year-old complained that he wasn't getting enough playing time and that he was having trouble adjusting to new teammates and a new offense. Garcia made things worse by openly criticizing Davis and offensive coordinator Terry Robiskie, complaining that they weren't using him properly.

At one point, Davis called Garcia "skittish" in the pocket, a comment that angered the quarterback and expanded the rift between them.

 

[Die]

I always envisioned the Oakland Raiders as a bunch of wild eccentric guys that might be hard for some to get along with. Maybe he brought a little of that to Tampa.

 

[Wadsworth]

I just heard Shelton Quarles on a radio row interview. They asked him about Gruden and he said he was difficult on players at times but that he never a problem with him. He then said that Gruden mostly left the defensive players alone so it might have been different for the offensive guys.

 

[massraider]

Every time I read one of these quotes I wonder if there can be all this smoke and no fire. I mean, one malcontent or two, fine. But this is a number of players spanning a few years. None of them say he doesn't understand football; they all say he doesn't treat people well.

Exactly.

 

[gump]

Every time I read one of these quotes I wonder if there can be all this smoke and no fire. I mean, one malcontent or two, fine. But this is a number of players spanning a few years. None of them say he doesn't understand football; they all say he doesn't treat people well.

Exactly.

As I said...Tampa people (and I'm sure Raider people) have assumed there was something to it for years. Our hope was he would mature out of it. His football acumen was impressive for his young age....but not everyone knows how to lead people at a young age...especially a wide variety of multi-millionaires.I still think he can grow into a better coach...and I guarantee you someone will give him the change to.

 

[massraider]

Every time I read one of these quotes I wonder if there can be all this smoke and no fire. I mean, one malcontent or two, fine. But this is a number of players spanning a few years. None of them say he doesn't understand football; they all say he doesn't treat people well.

Exactly.

As I said...Tampa people (and I'm sure Raider people) have assumed there was something to it for years. Our hope was he would mature out of it. His football acumen was impressive for his young age....but not everyone knows how to lead people at a young age...especially a wide variety of multi-millionaires.I still think he can grow into a better coach...and I guarantee you someone will give him the change to.

I am not sure it will be as an NFL HC. Offensive coordinator? Sure. I think college might be the best chance for him, in the near future.