I Wish We As Society Would Do Less Criticizing Just For Being a Member Of A Political Party (1 Viewer)

[quick-hands]

I’ve always thought of Maurile as a conservative. Do you not?

He is not.    He a liberal.

 

[Desert_Power]

Gotcha, thx.

I think this illustrates part of the difficulty in putting people in buckets and the "this side" or "that side".  I think most of us are not naturally that way.

Immigration:  I don't support illegal immigration and I support protecting our border from illegal immigration.  There's a lot of grey in between and there are areas where I would disagree with Trump.  But I'm not sure why that opening position around illegal immigration should be seen as ill-liberal but I guess thats the category.

Gun Control:  I'd say I'm in the middle, which is to say I'm probably about as far away from "Trump" as I am from "Biden".  But in general gun control would seem ill-liberal and un-libertarian so if thats the "Trump" view its hard to see it as illiberal (albeit different from the stance of what we now call democrats/liberals).

LGBT+ rights & Law enforcement:  Again, I'd say I'm in the middle between the parties.

All this to say, it just feels odd to say that people who consider themselves socially liberal would be "very far away from Trump" on most issues and certainly these big ones.  I'm disagree with Trump on some, I disagree with Biden on some.

Gotcha, thx.

I think this illustrates part of the difficulty in putting people in buckets and the "this side" or "that side".  I think most of us are not naturally that way.

Immigration:  I don't support illegal immigration and I support protecting our border from illegal immigration.  There's a lot of grey in between and there are areas where I would disagree with Trump.  But I'm not sure why that opening position around illegal immigration should be seen as ill-liberal but I guess thats the category.

Gun Control:  I'd say I'm in the middle, which is to say I'm probably about as far away from "Trump" as I am from "Biden".  But in general gun control would seem ill-liberal and un-libertarian so if thats the "Trump" view its hard to see it as illiberal (albeit different from the stance of what we now call democrats/liberals).

LGBT+ rights & Law enforcement:  Again, I'd say I'm in the middle between the parties.

All this to say, it just feels odd to say that people who consider themselves socially liberal would be "very far away from Trump" on most issues and certainly these big ones.  I'm disagree with Trump on some, I disagree with Biden on some.

I agree that these buckets have moved a bit from the ~10-15 year ago period I have in my mind. Both parties are a lot less ideologically consistent than they used to be. Not trying to go point by point or bring up more controversial social issues around race. Appreciate you sharing your perspective. There is a lot of room to make progress on where people agree vs focusing on where they disagree, but that is rare in this hyper-partisan environment.

I will point out though that Trump very much curtailed legal migration and the progress of "Dreamers", which is what I had in mind mostly there. I'm about pro-immigration as it gets, but agree we should have much stricter enforcement of our borders/ports of entry. So I don't think saying you are against illegal immigration itself is necessarily illiberal. 

 

 

[Caveman33]

Gotcha, thx.

I think this illustrates part of the difficulty in putting people in buckets and the "this side" or "that side".  I think most of us are not naturally that way.

Immigration:  I don't support illegal immigration and I support protecting our border from illegal immigration.  There's a lot of grey in between and there are areas where I would disagree with Trump.  But I'm not sure why that opening position around illegal immigration should be seen as ill-liberal but I guess thats the category.

Gun Control:  I'd say I'm in the middle, which is to say I'm probably about as far away from "Trump" as I am from "Biden".  But in general gun control would seem ill-liberal and un-libertarian so if thats the "Trump" view its hard to see it as illiberal (albeit different from the stance of what we now call democrats/liberals).

LGBT+ rights & Law enforcement:  Again, I'd say I'm in the middle between the parties.

All this to say, it just feels odd to say that people who consider themselves socially liberal would be "very far away from Trump" on most issues and certainly these big ones.  I'm disagree with Trump on some, I disagree with Biden on some.

I'm fairly liberal on all of these. 

I support illegal immigration.  The illegality of it keeps many on good behavior and the difficulty ensures we receive a fitter bunch than average.  Basically cheap labor that puts more into the system than they take out.  Win, win.

I support a strict gun policy.  Maybe impossible to take back what we have already created.  Shotguns, single shot rifles and small handguns are all that should be needed for home/personal defense.  The enjoyment that semi automatics can bring to responsible owners has been destroyed by the irresponsible few.  (I'm good at drinking and driving but others aren't so none of us can do it.)

I support major reform within law enforcement.  Eliminate/restrict police unions, require individual officers to purchase their own insurance.  All settlements paid through insurance, police retirement fund.  Enhanced sentencing to officers found guilt in court, similar to the enhanced sentencing received by those who harm officers.

I support gay marriage but maybe little else on the LGBT front.  I think people should just go into whatever bathroom they feel comfortable and learn to handle the reactions they may experience.  Pronouns are a personal thing and I expect everyone to use whatever they are comfortable with.  I'm not sure if there should be enhanced sentencing for hate crimes.  I don't know if I trust the legal system to apply it equally and equitably.  When I am desperately trying to hurt someone, I will look for any way to attack.  If they are flaming, that will probably come up but only because I was already trying to hurt them.

 

[Insein]

The bolded is exactly what’s wrong with American Politics today.  
 

*not picking on you Blade, as massive chucks of society feel the same, it’s just a damn shame and it’s what will only continue to divide us

Media does a great job at the us or them mentality. It's why many minorities get attacked (verbally and sometimes physically) for something as simple as a vote for the wrong party.

 

[BladeRunner]

The problem with this is that "conservative" is a term that means different things to different people.  I'm a conservative in the Burkean sense, and the Democratic party is far, far more conservative than the Republican party in that regard.  I don't care much for the Democratic party on most issues, but they're not trying to overthrow our government and turn the US into Hungary, so at least they've got that going for them.

And you're okay with their far-left contingent growing larger and stronger every year?  I'm talking the AOC, Talib, Sanders, Warren types (there's more, but just listed them for now)?  You don't think that's a problem?  I do.  It shows me that the liberal base is growing more extreme by the year.

By voting for the Democrat Party, you're essentially giving those types power and emboldening them to move even further left, IMO.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

And you're okay with their far-left contingent growing larger and stronger every year?  I'm talking the AOC, Talib, Sanders, Warren types (there's more, but just listed them for now)?  You don't think that's a problem?  I do.  It shows me that the liberal base is growing more extreme by the year.

By voting for the Democrat Party, you're essentially giving those types power and emboldening them to move even further left, IMO.

Yes, I have problems with many of the folks you just named.  But they're not trying to overthrow the government.  If I'm forced to choose between a party that thinks it's normal for well-adjusted adults to sit in a circle and share their pronouns vs. a party that wants to abolish the government and replace it with something more overtly authoritarian, I'll pick the pronoun people every day of the week.  I can at least roll my eyes and have a little laugh at that.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

In other words, I see the Republican party as qualitatively more unhinged than the party whose leaders failed 4th grade sex ed.  That's really saying something.  

I've said this a joke before, but I honestly wonder sometimes if our national food supply wasn't somehow contaminated back in, I dunno, 2015 or so?  The speed with which both parties veered off into insanity is kind of hard to describe without resorting to explanations like ergot poisoning or something.  Probably social media is the modern equivalent of ergot, but it does feel like Russia slipped something into the water sometimes.

 

[Navin Johnson]

He is not.    He a liberal.

He thinks Biden is  progressive, or at least he did during the campaign. No way in he'll is he a liberal

 

[dkp993]

Media does a great job at the us or them mentality. It's why many minorities get attacked (verbally and sometimes physically) for something as simple as a vote for the wrong party.

Sure and I don’t necessarily disagree but IMO that’s not the media’s fault, it’s ours.  The media narratives wouldn’t exist if we didn’t support it.  

 

[quick-hands]

He thinks Biden is  progressive, or at least he did during the campaign. No way in he'll is he a liberal

Bidens policies are progressive.   Biden has dementia.

And he is in Xi's stooge.

 

[jwb]

In other words, I see the Republican party as qualitatively more unhinged than the party whose leaders failed 4th grade sex ed.  That's really saying something.  

I've said this a joke before, but I honestly wonder sometimes if our national food supply wasn't somehow contaminated back in, I dunno, 2015 or so?  The speed with which both parties veered off into insanity is kind of hard to describe without resorting to explanations like ergot poisoning or something.  Probably social media is the modern equivalent of ergot, but it does feel like Russia slipped something into the water sometimes.

Definitely this. Social Media has changed the game with record speed. Without Facebook, we're not nearly as divided/partisan as we are now.

 

[Insein]

Sure and I don’t necessarily disagree but IMO that’s not the media’s fault, it’s ours.  The media narratives wouldn’t exist if we didn’t support it.  

I disagree. I feel it's the reverse. Without the media narratives, many of these ideas would be only for the lunatic fringe. Most people are pretty accepting of others. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Bidets policies are progressive.   

This is typical of progressives -- they all want us to be more like Europe, and they don't trust us to wipe our own asses properly.

 

[dkp993]

I disagree. I feel it's the reverse. Without the media narratives, many of these ideas would be only for the lunatic fringe. Most people are pretty accepting of others. 

They need our views and support to make a single dime.  The second we stop supporting newsmax or CNN’s of the world with our time is the second this divisive rhetoric stops.  The problem is that Americans are addicted to drama and huge chunks of our population has picked a team and deemed the other side as the enemy. So the newsmax’s and CNN’s of the world will continue to feed the bases.  But just like with Congress we are to blame.  We hold all the power yet feel and act powerless.  

 

[facook]

Sure and I don’t necessarily disagree but IMO that’s not the media’s fault, it’s ours.  The media narratives wouldn’t exist if we didn’t support it.  

I disagree. I feel it's the reverse. Without the media narratives, many of these ideas would be only for the lunatic fringe. Most people are pretty accepting of others. 

CNN currently running a "journalism piece" called "Being...AOC."  Not sure how they are able to talk with her _______ in their mouths.  Is that not a media narrative?  

They KNOW she is divisive, to put it mildly.  CNN is taking a side,  blow smoke up her skirt till it feels JUST right.  Not a narrative?

 

[dkp993]

CNN currently running a "journalism piece" called "Being...AOC."  Not sure how they are able to talk with her _______ in their mouths.  Is that not a media narrative?  

They KNOW she is divisive, to put it mildly.  CNN is taking a side,  blow smoke up her skirt till it feels JUST right.  Not a narrative?

Really not sure what your implying.  I said the media creates narratives, but they do it because it sells. If we weren’t buying they wouldn’t be selling it.  

 

[facook]

Really not sure what your implying.  I said the media create narratives,  but they do it because it sells. If we weren’t buying they wouldn’t be selling it.  

Just needed to vent.   

 

[Navin Johnson]

Bidens policies are progressive.   Biden has dementia.

And he is in Xi's stooge.

Which particular policies are progressive?

 

[tonydead]

Which particular policies are progressive?

You serious Clark?   Biden said he wont sign infastructure deal without the progressive reconciliation package. 

Although he promised differently earlier, so, maybe it's just demensia and he tries to repeat whatever they are whispering to him that day. 

 

[Navin Johnson]

You serious Clark?   Biden said he wont sign infastructure deal without the progressive reconciliation package. 

Although he promised differently earlier, so, maybe it's just demensia and he tries to repeat whatever they are whispering to him that day. 

So nothing?

 

[tonydead]

So nothing?

Progressive by proxy. 

 

[DropKick]

Really not sure what your implying.  I said the media create narratives,  but they do it because it sells. If we weren’t buying they wouldn’t be selling it.  

I really miss the "Bat Boy" from the National Enquirer

 

[quick-hands]

Which particular policies are progressive?

https://joebiden.com/joes-vision/

 

[KarmaPolice]

And you're okay with their far-left contingent growing larger and stronger every year?  I'm talking the AOC, Talib, Sanders, Warren types (there's more, but just listed them for now)?  You don't think that's a problem?  I do.  It shows me that the liberal base is growing more extreme by the year.

By voting for the Democrat Party, you're essentially giving those types power and emboldening them to move even further left, IMO.

Why doesn't the same apply for the growing numbers of far right, Q believers, getting voted into office?   Your R vote is a vote for them in the same why you just described above, correct?  

In the end I don't believe many believe the way you just posted above.   My vote for Biden was barely a vote for him, let alone a vote for AOC or Talib.   If I directly voted for them, then you have a point, but I have 0 clue why people would think that a vote for one person of a political party is a essentially a vote for anybody who identifies with that same political party.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

I disagree. I feel it's the reverse. Without the media narratives, many of these ideas would be only for the lunatic fringe. Most people are pretty accepting of others. 

Without us clicking on it, without us eating it up, it would eventually go away because they would be losing money.  IMO that is the main driver.   

Hell, just look how much people supposedly hate and complain about CNN and Fox, and just look at how much they are talked about an linked in all these threads.     

 

[Insein]

Without us clicking on it, without us eating it up, it would eventually go away because they would be losing money.  IMO that is the main driver.   

Hell, just look how much people supposedly hate and complain about CNN and Fox, and just look at how much they are talked about an linked in all these threads.     

I agree with that. Drama sells. I'm not sure more than 5 people on here actually watch those channels though but they do get brought up often. I guess it's proof that advertising and branding works. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

I agree with that. Drama sells. I'm not sure more than 5 people on here actually watch those channels though but they do get brought up often. I guess it's proof that advertising and branding works. 

IMO it's a bit more than five, but even if it was just that, it's telling how much time is spent talking about CNN and Fox.   On top of that, think about every time one of their links/articles are posted and people click on it in here - it amplifies the numbers that actually watch and click that stuff as those links are passed around and used all over.  

 

[Navin Johnson]

https://joebiden.com/joes-vision/

Go on...

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Why doesn't the same apply for the growing numbers of far right, Q believers, getting voted into office?   Your R vote is a vote for them in the same why you just described above, correct?  

In the end I don't believe many believe the way you just posted above.   My vote for Biden was barely a vote for him, let alone a vote for AOC or Talib.   If I directly voted for them, then you have a point, but I have 0 clue why people would think that a vote for one person of a political party is a essentially a vote for anybody who identifies with that same political party.  

I think a vote for any Democratic Senator can also be considered a vote to make Schumer majority leader.  Same with Republicans and McConnell.  And Pelosi/McCarthy in the House.  That’s why it would be very hard for me to vote for a Republican Senator or Congressman even if that person were awesome otherwise.

 

[quick-hands]

Go on...

"Build back better"

-Klaus Schwab

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think a vote for any Democratic Senator can also be considered a vote to make Schumer majority leader.  Same with Republicans and McConnell.  And Pelosi/McCarthy in the House.  That’s why it would be very hard for me to vote for a Republican Senator or Congressman even if that person were awesome otherwise.

Yeah, that's a good point.  

 

[Navin Johnson]

"Build back better"

-Klaus Schwab

Still nothing then?

 

[quick-hands]

Still nothing then?

What?   I gotta walk you down the road too.   I point u go read.    I'm 54 ill teach my kid.  Not you.   You educate yourself.

Finding out the history of build back better  and Klaus Schwab should stop the he is not progressive boolah boolah. 

 

[Navin Johnson]

What?   I gotta walk you down the road too.   I point u go read.    I'm 54 ill teach my kid.  Not you.   You educate yourself.

Finding out the history of build back better  and Klaus Schwab should stop the he is not progressive boolah boolah. 

You linked to a wall of text that had ACA as the first thing on the list.  Sorry, but making buying health insurance compulsory is not a progressive ideal.

You might want to start educating yourself on what is progressive and what is not.

 

[roadkill1292]

Matt Yglesias, with whom I disagree as often as not, whimsically suggested a few days ago that Republicans should outflank Dems by supporting universal health care and high tax rates on the rich, both of which are generally popular with the working class upon whom they increasingly count as their base voters.

It could even work for them in attracting more moderate conservatives back to the party - a demographic they've been hemorrhaging lately - but the flaw in the plan is that they would have to devise serious policy and candidates who can do that are struggling to win GOP primaries these days.