Indefinite New England Patriots Thread (3 Viewers)

[Anarchy99]

Was poking around trying to better illustrate that the Patriots generally can beat mediocre teams and average QBs but struggle against better teams and better QBs (including mobile / running QBs). Their overall record is 33-26 since the start of the 2019 season (spanning play with Brady, Stidham, Hoyer, Newton, Jones, and Zappe at QB). Given that they started the 2019 season 8-0, that makes them 25-26 in the past 3 seasons (halfway point in 2019 to halfway point in 2022). Here's the team record against the opposiing QBs they've faced.

Sam Darnold (3-0)
Baker Mayfield (2-0)
Justin Herbert (2-0)
Zach Wilson (2-0)
Ben Roethlisberger (1-0)
Luke Falk (1-0)
Colt McCoy (1-0)
Daniel Jones (1-0)
Andy Dalton (1-0)
Derek Carr (1-0)
Joe Flacco (1-0)
Kyler Murray (1-0)
Davis Mills (1-0)
Mike White (1-0)
Matt Ryan (1-0)
Trevor Lawrence (1-0)
Mitchell Trubisky (1-0)
Jacoby Brissett (1-0)
Ryan Fitzpatrick (2-1)
Carson Wentz (1-1)
Dak Prescott (1-1)
Ryan Tannehill (1-1)
Jared Goff (1-1)
Lamar Jackson (1-2)
Josh Allen (3-4)
Russell Wilson (0-1)
Drew Lock (0-1)
Jimmy Garoppolo (0-1)
Jameis Winston (0-1)
Tom Brady (0-1)
Aaron Rodgers (0-1)
Justin Fields (0-1)
DeShaun Watson (0-2)
Patrick Mahome (0-2)
Tua Tagovailoa (0-4)

Other than 2 wins against Herbert and 3 wins (now mostly in the rear mirror) against Allen, they haven't exactly beaten the best of the best at QB. We can revisit if Jones is helping or hurting their cause and if the defense is better positioned heading into the tough part of their schedule down the stretch to win some tough games.

 

[Anarchy99]

It appears I am the only one that posts in this thread anymore, so why not one more?

Here's why I like the Pats on the road on a short week against Minnesota.

- No offense to Vikings fans, but MIN may be the weakest 8-2 team in league history. They are -2 on the season in point differential and -504 yards in yardage differential.
- Based on their performance and analytics, the Vikings projected record should be 4.9 - 5.1. Based on on-field numbers, NE would be expected to be 6.3-3.7. Even with an invisible offense, NE is +150 net yards on the season.
- Prior to getting whomped by DAL, the Vikings had won 7 straight one possession games (that tends to even out over time).
- The Pats defense has allowed an average of 30 yards per quarter over the past 8 quarters, only allowing 6 points in two games with 13 sacks. (Yes, Cousins/Cooks/Jefferson are in a whole different universe than Ehlinger/Jackson/Cambell or Wilson/Robinson/Mims).
- What just happened over the weekend? DAL beat MIN based on getting after Cousins (7 sacks), riding their two RB (226 YFS/4 TD), and going with a short passing game. Those are three things NE have the personnel for and do reasonably well. I'm guessing MIN won't be able to make many adjustments in a short week.
- MIN has allowed 154 rushing yds/gm in November. Even with Cook, MIN has been outrushed in that time by 32 yds/gm.
- In two previous games against NE, Cousins has averaged 209 passing yards and had 2 TD with 3 INT and a 69 passer rating.
- In the only game with Cousins playing for MIN vs. NE, Cousins had 201-1-2, Cook had 106 YFS, Diggs had 5-49-0, and Thielen had 5-28-1. NE won that game in 2018 by a 24-10 score.
- I posted yesterday that the magic number for NE is 17 points allowed. Since 2019 (Brady's last year in NE), in games when the defense has allowed 17 or fewer points, the Patriots have gone 31-1. In games when they have allowed 18 or more points, they are 4-25.
- I can see the NE defense getting a couple of turnovers and/or them getting in a field position battle that gets the Pats 3 or 4 FGs and a TD. The Pats still struggle to get points on the board, but playing in doors should help Folk get back on track. And I can see the defense limiting MIN to a TD and a couple of FG. Call me crazy, but I think the Pats can win this one if they don't turn the ball over, something like 19-13 or 16-13.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

- The Pats defense has allowed an average of 30 yards per quarter over the past 8 quarters, only allowing 6 points in two games with 13 sacks. - Since 2019 ... the defense has allowed 17 or fewer points, ... Patriots 31-1...

Zack Cox
@ZackCoxNESN
The Patriots' defense has been awesome. But their six wins this season have come against:
Zach Wilson (twice)
Sam Ehlinger
Jacoby Brissett
Jared Goff
Mitch Trubisky
They'll face a much tougher slate over these final seven weeks.

 

[Anarchy99]

- The Pats defense has allowed an average of 30 yards per quarter over the past 8 quarters, only allowing 6 points in two games with 13 sacks. - Since 2019 ... the defense has allowed 17 or fewer points, ... Patriots 31-1...

Zack Cox
@ZackCoxNESN
The Patriots' defense has been awesome. But their six wins this season have come against:
Zach Wilson (twice)
Sam Ehlinger
Jacoby Brissett
Jared Goff
Mitch Trubisky
They'll face a much tougher slate over these final seven weeks.

I am well aware the defense could be a mirage. And there's no doubt the offense will have to start putting up more points on the board if they expect to win some of their remaining games. They struggle against mobile / running QBs. The QBs left on the schedule are Allen x 2, Tua, Burrow, Cousins, Carr, and Murray. As I said yesterday, they could go 2-5 or 5-2 (or any other combination).

I think NE matches up well against MIN, they should be able to beat ARI and LV, and Burrow has never played against the Pats (first timers usually struggle against a BB defense). MIA with Tua have won a number of games in a row against NE, and I think they could beat MIA playing at home in a cold weather game. I expect them to lose both games with BUF. I can see them getting to 10 wins (and then fizzling out in the playoffs against a much better opponent).

 

[Anarchy99]

To further illustrate the defense has been getting lucky at times, viewing some All-22 film for some of their plays in recent games, there were multiple times when receivers had broken free and could have been able to go for big gainers or TDs . . . either by blown coverage, a defender biting on a fake, DBs bumping into each other, a CB slipping and falling, etc. But they have been getting so much pressure, the opposing QBs haven't had time to capitalize. That's the benefit of getting pressure. Quarterbacks don't have time to scan the entire field or have time for guys to get open. But better teams and established QB won't miss those wide-open guys very often. The defense won't give up only 100 yards of offense again . . . but they could certainly hold teams below their average production levels.

 

[Anarchy99]

Ty Law explained the biggest issue with New England right now this morning on the radio. The players still have a great deal of respect for BB, but they have lost respect for most of the other coaches. Essentially, they feel most of the decision-makers other than BB went to the clown college of coaching (and didn't even graduate). They don't know what they are doing, most of the players know more than they do, and the team looks bad when they get out coached each week. Bill keeps trying to coach up the coaches, but it's not working, and the players aren't listening to whatever the coaches are trying to get them to do. They'll still listen to Bill (and he explains things better than the other coaches), but that only makes it more obvious that the other coaches are in over their heads. Apparently, the other coaches can't agree on what should be happening (or don't grasp what Bill wants), so BB is way over extended and has to coach both sides of the ball, the position groups, oversee personnel packages, game prep, etc. For things to get better, Bill needs to bring in experienced coaches that specialize in certain areas and leave them coaching in those areas.

 

[Boston]

Ty Law explained the biggest issue with New England right now this morning on the radio. The players still have a great deal of respect for BB, but they have lost respect for most of the other coaches. Essentially, they feel most of the decision-makers other than BB went to the clown college of coaching (and didn't even graduate). They don't know what they are doing, most of the players know more than they do, and the team looks bad when they get out coached each week. Bill keeps trying to coach up the coaches, but it's not working, and the players aren't listening to whatever the coaches are trying to get them to do. They'll still listen to Bill (and he explains things better than the other coaches), but that only makes it more obvious that the other coaches are in over their heads. Apparently, the other coaches can't agree on what should be happening (or don't grasp what Bill wants), so BB is way over extended and has to coach both sides of the ball, the position groups, oversee personnel packages, game prep, etc. For things to get better, Bill needs to bring in experienced coaches that specialize in certain areas and leave them coaching in those areas.

Law is dead-on but unfortunately everyone except BB knew this in August…he has no one to blame for this debacle but himself…he owns it…now the $1,000,000 question/questions is, is he willing to do what needs to be done to fix it…is he willing to stop with the nepotism and demote/fire friends and family…is he willing to bring in some real outside voices and not lackeys…is he willing to admit that you can not build a team in 2022 the same way you did with Brady…I hope the answer to all of this is yes because he is still the best Coach that they can have but if he doesn’t he just can’t continue in his role…whenever BB has had an issue it is usually BB the GM letting down BB the Coach and there is zero doubt you can not have one without the other…things have to change in Foxboro and the first thing that needs to change is BB’s willingness to make changes…if he is not willing to then something’s gotta give.

 

[Anarchy99]

Ty Law explained the biggest issue with New England right now this morning on the radio. The players still have a great deal of respect for BB, but they have lost respect for most of the other coaches. Essentially, they feel most of the decision-makers other than BB went to the clown college of coaching (and didn't even graduate). They don't know what they are doing, most of the players know more than they do, and the team looks bad when they get out coached each week. Bill keeps trying to coach up the coaches, but it's not working, and the players aren't listening to whatever the coaches are trying to get them to do. They'll still listen to Bill (and he explains things better than the other coaches), but that only makes it more obvious that the other coaches are in over their heads. Apparently, the other coaches can't agree on what should be happening (or don't grasp what Bill wants), so BB is way over extended and has to coach both sides of the ball, the position groups, oversee personnel packages, game prep, etc. For things to get better, Bill needs to bring in experienced coaches that specialize in certain areas and leave them coaching in those areas.

Law is dead-on but unfortunately everyone except BB knew this in August…he has no one to blame for this debacle but himself…he owns it…now the $1,000,000 question/questions is, is he willing to do what needs to be done to fix it…is he willing to stop with the nepotism and demote/fire friends and family…is he willing to bring in some real outside voices and not lackeys…is he willing to admit that you can not build a team in 2022 the same way you did with Brady…I hope the answer to all of this is yes because he is still the best Coach that they can have but if he doesn’t he just can’t continue in his role…whenever BB has had an issue it is usually BB the GM letting down BB the Coach and there is zero doubt you can not have one without the other…things have to change in Foxboro and the first thing that needs to change is BB’s willingness to make changes…if he is not something’s gotta give.

You and I are really the only ones that debate some of this stuff, so we might as well continue. I agree that Bill can't coach like he did 20 years ago . . . the game is too different. So the bend but don't break, let the other team make mistakes, and win with defense and a conservative offense approach is a lot less likely to work these days. I agree that there were multiple drafts that were barren wastelands that put them in a bad spot and caused them to sign some free agents that didn't work out. However, I think they did a lot better in the last couple of drafts. Free agent signings work out / don't work out just like draft picks. They will likely have the ability to grab some free agent help again this upcoming offseason. The last batch of guys they brought in had a mixed bag of results (Judon worked out, Henry has been underutilized, Smith and Agholor were disasters, Bourne was great last year but got in Patricia's doghouse this year).

Bill is still good at finding guys that slid in the draft) or finding UDFAs). But he really hasn't great lately with his first-round picks . . . and by not great, I mean they have been bloody awful. Their first-round picks since 2013 have been . . .Cole Strange, Mac Jones, N'Keal Harry, Isaiah Wynn, Sony Michel, Malcom Brown, and Dominque Easley. They've had some decent second round picks in that time, but they have flushed plenty away as well (Joejuan Williams, Duke Dawson, Cyrus Jones, Jordan Richards, Aaron Dobson).

I am holding steadfast on my take that a shakeup in the coaching staff (mostly a legit OC), an upgraded OL, and one more playmaker on either side of the ball would get this team back to double digit wins and headed in the right direction. If they did that, then we could better assess what else they would need to do. But that would be a great start.

 

[Boston]

Ty Law explained the biggest issue with New England right now this morning on the radio. The players still have a great deal of respect for BB, but they have lost respect for most of the other coaches. Essentially, they feel most of the decision-makers other than BB went to the clown college of coaching (and didn't even graduate). They don't know what they are doing, most of the players know more than they do, and the team looks bad when they get out coached each week. Bill keeps trying to coach up the coaches, but it's not working, and the players aren't listening to whatever the coaches are trying to get them to do. They'll still listen to Bill (and he explains things better than the other coaches), but that only makes it more obvious that the other coaches are in over their heads. Apparently, the other coaches can't agree on what should be happening (or don't grasp what Bill wants), so BB is way over extended and has to coach both sides of the ball, the position groups, oversee personnel packages, game prep, etc. For things to get better, Bill needs to bring in experienced coaches that specialize in certain areas and leave them coaching in those areas.

Law is dead-on but unfortunately everyone except BB knew this in August…he has no one to blame for this debacle but himself…he owns it…now the $1,000,000 question/questions is, is he willing to do what needs to be done to fix it…is he willing to stop with the nepotism and demote/fire friends and family…is he willing to bring in some real outside voices and not lackeys…is he willing to admit that you can not build a team in 2022 the same way you did with Brady…I hope the answer to all of this is yes because he is still the best Coach that they can have but if he doesn’t he just can’t continue in his role…whenever BB has had an issue it is usually BB the GM letting down BB the Coach and there is zero doubt you can not have one without the other…things have to change in Foxboro and the first thing that needs to change is BB’s willingness to make changes…if he is not something’s gotta give.

You and I are really the only ones that debate some of this stuff, so we might as well continue. I agree that Bill can't coach like he did 20 years ago . . . the game is too different. So the bend but don't break, let the other team make mistakes, and win with defense and a conservative offense approach is a lot less likely to work these days. I agree that there were multiple drafts that were barren wastelands that put them in a bad spot and caused them to sign some free agents that didn't work out. However, I think they did a lot better in the last couple of drafts. Free agent signings work out / don't work out just like draft picks. They will likely have the ability to grab some free agent help again this upcoming offseason. The last batch of guys they brought in had a mixed bag of results (Judon worked out, Henry has been underutilized, Smith and Agholor were disasters, Bourne was great last year but got in Patricia's doghouse this year).

Bill is still good at finding guys that slid in the draft) or finding UDFAs). But he really hasn't great lately with his first-round picks . . . and by not great, I mean they have been bloody awful. Their first-round picks since 2013 have been . . .Cole Strange, Mac Jones, N'Keal Harry, Isaiah Wynn, Sony Michel, Malcom Brown, and Dominque Easley. They've had some decent second round picks in that time, but they have flushed plenty away as well (Joejuan Williams, Duke Dawson, Cyrus Jones, Jordan Richards, Aaron Dobson).

I am holding steadfast on my take that a shakeup in the coaching staff (mostly a legit OC), an upgraded OL, and one more playmaker on either side of the ball would get this team back to double digit wins and headed in the right direction. If they did that, then we could better assess what else they would need to do. But that would be a great start.

We will have a ton to talk about this off-season because there is a lot to do to get them to the level where they can actually compete with the legit teams…agree 100% they need more playmakers, especially in the passing game…first of all, there should be an open competition between Zappe and Mac, Mac has not done enough for the right not to have competition for that spot…not breaking new ground here but they desperately need a legit #1 WR (the Harry pick is such a killer), the O Line is suddenly very leaky and definitely not set-up for the future…small sample size but I like what I am seeing in Strong and the other Harris looks like he can play so outside of adding more depth they can focus elsewhere…on D they are solid but need more…Uche finally figuring things out has been big and it is very important Barmore reaches his potential as he was disappointing this year…Jack and Marcus Jones look like a keeper and Duggar just needs to stay on the field…with the right additions the D can take another step next year as right now they are a little bit of a paper tiger in that they still get exposed by the good offenses…between their picks and healthy cap situation they definitely have an avenue to improve but if they screw things up this off-season the ramifications of it the next few years will be brutal And it will definitely be the end of the BB era.

 

[Anarchy99]

Another thing Ty Law said was that there is exactly a 0% chance that BB will ever get fired / lose his job / be replaced. Law said NE is on the map because of BB and TB, and no way, no how will the Kraft's move on from him. They have too much respect for Bill, realize they won't find a replacement better than him, and he has made the franchise more money than they can count. Ty said it will be up to Bill to retire or want to move on to another team, but the Kraft's essentially will have him for as long as he is willing to coach. Law essentially called out any member of the media suggesting that Bill is coaching for his job, needs a playoff win, has to have a winning record to come back, etc. as full of doggy doo. He shut down any and all follow up questions by saying, "doesn't matter what the team does . . . Bill is there for as long as he wants to be." To Law, any talk of the Patriots moving on is BS hot takes / click bait.

We can ponder whether that's how things should be and what that means for the future of the team. I suppose the Kraft's could get Bill to resign and retire, but them putting their foot down and straight up firing him doesn't seem like it's in the cards. Maybe Ty is misinformed, but he was adamant about his stance.

 

[Anarchy99]

As bad as NE has been, if they win their last 2 games they will make the playoffs. They won’t beat the Bills in Week 18 if BUF is playing for a bye (they would lose to them no matter what the situation is).

Oddly enough, NE still would have a shot by beating MIA (potentially without Tua) and losing to the Bills. MIA would have to lose to the Jets, Titans would need to lose to the Jags, and PIT and LV would need to lose one of their remaining games. I don’t see the Raiders beating the Niners and Chiefs. And the Steelers play the Ravens and Browns. At 8-9, NE would be the total backdoor playoff team and one of the least deserving post season teams in recent memory.

It would be humorous to watch them get pasted against the Chiefs in the playoffs (probably as bad as the Bills playoff game last year). Mac might explode on national TV after their third delay of game penalty.

 

[Anarchy99]

This year, NE has beaten Mitchell Trubisky, Jared Goff, Jacoby Brissett, Zach Wilson x2, Sam Ehlinger, and Colt McCoy. Not exactly a murderer's row.

 

[Anarchy99]

News on the Patriots OC search. Bill O'Brien is still said to be the leading candidate (but nothing formal lined up yet). However, the Pats interviewed their current TE coach Nick Caley for the role. They have requested an interview with current MIN WR coach and former notable NFL WR Keenan McCardell. And they are said to be interviewing BB's first draft pick when he came to NE, former OT Adam Klemm. He formerly was the PIT OL coach and currently is an Assistant Coach for the U of Oregon.

 

[Anarchy99]

Bill O’Brien the new OC. And there was much rejoicing.

 

[brun]

Bill O’Brien the new OC. And there was much rejoicing.

Should be an improvement

 

[fatness]

Looks like some players were not happy with the Patriots coaching staff this season.

Inside the most dysfunctional Patriots season under Bill Belichick: ‘I’ve never seen anything like it’

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

From my perspective, the general public is convinced that Bill is just punching the clock on the road to 0.500 seasons to pass Don Shula, doesn't care about hiring good coaches, and has Kraft's support in "just hanging out" until he passes Shula. I call BS. Call me idealistic and tone-deaf as you like, I'm just fiercely loyal to the guy who created the empire....and I don't mean TB12.

 

[Boston]

From my perspective, the general public is convinced that Bill is just punching the clock on the road to 0.500 seasons to pass Don Shula, doesn't care about hiring good coaches, and has Kraft's support in "just hanging out" until he passes Shula. I call BS. Call me idealistic and tone-deaf as you like, I'm just fiercely loyal to the guy who created the empire....and I don't mean TB12.

I don't blame you for being loyal...we all should be...he is the greatest HC of all time and what he did for close to 20 years may never be matched...that being said the past 3 years have been mediocre at best...on one hand that is to be expected when you lose the greatest player of all time (who absolutely helped create this empire)...on the other hand if the HC/GM was not named BB there is a good chance he would have been fired after this year or at the least would have only 1 more year to get things headed in a better direction...the big issue I have is they appear to be somewhat directionless...the Coaching staff last year was a grade A embarrassment, the team plays so undisciplined at times now and the overall talent is about average and still has far too many holes that need to be addressed at almost every single position...BB was able to build and coach the team a certain way with Brady but now that he is gone he needs to create a new formula and right now he has not done a good job in figuring that out...the product on the field supports that.

 

[Anarchy99]

I agree life post-Brady has been difficult. But it’s not just Brady. IIRC, there are only a half dozen players left from the 2018 SB winning team.

The recent teams haven’t worked out as well, but as I mentioned multiple times, other teams have built way better teams than they used to. That part has nothing to do with NE. IMO, adding Brady to the recent rosters would still have left them as a .500-ish team.

Players aren’t as talented, coaches aren’t as good, play calling hasn’t been great, drafting and scouting fell off for awhile, etc. NE fans like to look at the two decades of sustained excellence as the baseline for normal. But where NE is now is where most of the league is. Other teams have been able to put together 2-3 good seasons in a row, but there aren’t many teams that are top shelf year in and year out (KC with Mahomes being one of the exceptions).

Bottom line, the puzzle pieces have fit well, the players haven’t executed as well, and the rest of the league got way better.

 

[Insomniac]

The Patriots team won consistently because they had some great players and also a number of guys that weren't going to the Hall of Fame but were in the top10 at their position. Brady was the biggest part but it wasn't all him. I look the last few years and I don't see any great players and not even many top 10 at their position types. Unless they have a great offseason, even with a real OC I don't see a team that should contend to make the playoffs.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Ty Law explained the biggest issue with New England right now this morning on the radio. The players still have a great deal of respect for BB, but they have lost respect for most of the other coaches. Essentially, they feel most of the decision-makers other than BB went to the clown college of coaching (and didn't even graduate). They don't know what they are doing, most of the players know more than they do, and the team looks bad when they get out coached each week. Bill keeps trying to coach up the coaches, but it's not working, and the players aren't listening to whatever the coaches are trying to get them to do. They'll still listen to Bill (and he explains things better than the other coaches), but that only makes it more obvious that the other coaches are in over their heads. Apparently, the other coaches can't agree on what should be happening (or don't grasp what Bill wants), so BB is way over extended and has to coach both sides of the ball, the position groups, oversee personnel packages, game prep, etc. For things to get better, Bill needs to bring in experienced coaches that specialize in certain areas and leave them coaching in those areas.

Law is dead-on but unfortunately everyone except BB knew this in August…he has no one to blame for this debacle but himself…he owns it…now the $1,000,000 question/questions is, is he willing to do what needs to be done to fix it…is he willing to stop with the nepotism and demote/fire friends and family…is he willing to bring in some real outside voices and not lackeys…is he willing to admit that you can not build a team in 2022 the same way you did with Brady…I hope the answer to all of this is yes because he is still the best Coach that they can have but if he doesn’t he just can’t continue in his role…whenever BB has had an issue it is usually BB the GM letting down BB the Coach and there is zero doubt you can not have one without the other…things have to change in Foxboro and the first thing that needs to change is BB’s willingness to make changes…if he is not willing to then something’s gotta give.

Brady took off after the team had leveraged the future. He signed up with TB which was stacked sans QB and won another ring. Then not so much fun after that.

2022 was a hot Mike Patricia mess, and I'll be a harsh critic of BB in 2023 if team doesn't win at least one playoff game. Until then, its all in Bill we trust for this guy.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

The Patriots team won consistently because they had some great players and also a number of guys that weren't going to the Hall of Fame but were in the top10 at their position. Brady was the biggest part but it wasn't all him. I look the last few years and I don't see any great players and not even many top 10 at their position types. Unless they have a great offseason, even with a real OC I don't see a team that should contend to make the playoffs.

Great players: Judon, Brown, Guy, Andrews, Stevenson
Top 10: Henry, Strange, Andrews, Godchaux, JJones, Dugger, Folk

I'm sure you could pick that list apart with PFF ratings, etc. but it was a "off the top of my head response". The roster is not a complete mess but does need some major fixes.

 

[Boston]

The Patriots team won consistently because they had some great players and also a number of guys that weren't going to the Hall of Fame but were in the top10 at their position. Brady was the biggest part but it wasn't all him. I look the last few years and I don't see any great players and not even many top 10 at their position types. Unless they have a great offseason, even with a real OC I don't see a team that should contend to make the playoffs.

Great players: Judon, Brown, Guy, Andrews, Stevenson
Top 10: Henry, Strange, Andrews, Godchaux, JJones, Dugger, Folk

I'm sure you could pick that list apart with PFF ratings, etc. but it was a "off the top of my head response". The roster is not a complete mess but does need some major fixes.

Lawrence Guy and Trent Brown are great players? Jonathan Jones is a top 10 CB in the league? Cole Strange is a top 10 Guard? Godchaux is a top 10 interior lineman?

 

[Boston]

The Patriots team won consistently because they had some great players and also a number of guys that weren't going to the Hall of Fame but were in the top10 at their position. Brady was the biggest part but it wasn't all him. I look the last few years and I don't see any great players and not even many top 10 at their position types. Unless they have a great offseason, even with a real OC I don't see a team that should contend to make the playoffs.

Agree with everything but the last part...this team can definitely make the playoffs with a good offseason...they were one win away with this year's mess (remember 7 teams now make the playoffs)...now, being a championship contender is a different story but the playoffs is very realistic and I will say right now that if they don't make the playoffs in 2023 there is a very good chance there will be a new HC in 2024.

 

[Insomniac]

The Patriots team won consistently because they had some great players and also a number of guys that weren't going to the Hall of Fame but were in the top10 at their position. Brady was the biggest part but it wasn't all him. I look the last few years and I don't see any great players and not even many top 10 at their position types. Unless they have a great offseason, even with a real OC I don't see a team that should contend to make the playoffs.

Great players: Judon, Brown, Guy, Andrews, Stevenson
Top 10: Henry, Strange, Andrews, Godchaux, JJones, Dugger, Folk

I'm sure you could pick that list apart with PFF ratings, etc. but it was a "off the top of my head response". The roster is not a complete mess but does need some major fixes.

What I mean by "Great" is Brady, Seymour, Law, Moss, Gronk, Revis...

 

[Anarchy99]

What does the future hold for PLAYER A?

In 2022, PLAYER A posted the following numbers: 67 receptions, 804 receiving yards, 6 TD, 12.0 Y/R, 57.4 yards/gm.
In 2021, PLAYER B posted the following numbers: 77 receptions, 982 receiving yards, 5 TD, 12.8 Y/R, 57.8 yards/gm.

PLAYER A is Jakobi Meyers, who for some reason, local media guys think could be back in NE for $8-10M a season.
PLAYER B was Christian Kirk in his final season with ARI. Kirk signed with JAC for 4/$72M with $37M guaranteed.

Meyers is said to be one of the best available WR in the weak free agent market (along with Juju). Other than Meyers liking NE, why would he re-sign here for a low dollar deal? PFF has his market value as 4 years/$50M. Given the limited receiver options in free agency, I could see Meyers getting more than that if he opted for the best deal. (The stupid lateral play may have cost him a few bucks in free agency.)

What would NE fans be willing to give him to keep him around?

 

[Boston]

What does the future hold for PLAYER A?

In 2022, PLAYER A posted the following numbers: 67 receptions, 804 receiving yards, 6 TD, 12.0 Y/R, 57.4 yards/gm.
In 2021, PLAYER B posted the following numbers: 77 receptions, 982 receiving yards, 5 TD, 12.8 Y/R, 57.8 yards/gm.

PLAYER A is Jakobi Meyers, who for some reason, local media guys think could be back in NE for $8-10M a season.
PLAYER B was Christian Kirk in his final season with ARI. Kirk signed with JAC for 4/$72M with $37M guaranteed.

Meyers is said to be one of the best available WR in the weak free agent market (along with Juju). Other than Meyers liking NE, why would he re-sign here for a low dollar deal? PFF has his market value as 4 years/$50M. Given the limited receiver options in free agency, I could see Meyers getting more than that if he opted for the best deal. (The stupid lateral play may have cost him a few bucks in free agency.)

What would NE fans be willing to give him to keep him around?

Plus he was an UDFA so this is his best chance to make big money...due to that I can't believe he would give a hometown discount and if he did it would probably have to be close.

Everyone likes Myers...great story and he has turned into a productive player...but IMO he is not the type of player you give a big contract to as he really doesn't do anything special...he just isn't worth it and with a razor thin FA group and a not anything too special rookie crop someone is going to overpay for him (I agree with you that 4/50 seems low with this landscape)...in all honesty I would just thank him for being a quality pro and let him walk and use that $ elsewhere unless he would be willing to do something like 4/40 which he probably won't...the Pats need to add more playmakers and that just isn't Jakobi's game.

 

[Anarchy99]

What does the future hold for PLAYER A?

In 2022, PLAYER A posted the following numbers: 67 receptions, 804 receiving yards, 6 TD, 12.0 Y/R, 57.4 yards/gm.
In 2021, PLAYER B posted the following numbers: 77 receptions, 982 receiving yards, 5 TD, 12.8 Y/R, 57.8 yards/gm.

PLAYER A is Jakobi Meyers, who for some reason, local media guys think could be back in NE for $8-10M a season.
PLAYER B was Christian Kirk in his final season with ARI. Kirk signed with JAC for 4/$72M with $37M guaranteed.

Meyers is said to be one of the best available WR in the weak free agent market (along with Juju). Other than Meyers liking NE, why would he re-sign here for a low dollar deal? PFF has his market value as 4 years/$50M. Given the limited receiver options in free agency, I could see Meyers getting more than that if he opted for the best deal. (The stupid lateral play may have cost him a few bucks in free agency.)

What would NE fans be willing to give him to keep him around?

Plus he was an UDFA so this is his best chance to make big money...due to that I can't believe he would give a hometown discount and if he did it would probably have to be close.

Everyone likes Myers...great story and he has turned into a productive player...but IMO he is not the type of player you give a big contract to as he really doesn't do anything special...he just isn't worth it and with a razor thin FA group and a not anything too special rookie crop someone is going to overpay for him (I agree with you that 4/50 seems low with this landscape)...in all honesty I would just thank him for being a quality pro and let him walk and use that $ elsewhere unless he would be willing to do something like 4/40 which he probably won't...the Pats need to add more playmakers and that just isn't Jakobi's game.

They were discussing Meyers the other day, and I think Breer said on the open market he could probably get 4 years for between $55-60M. There are a number of receivers in the $20-30M range these days, so I don't think that's an unreasonable number. But the radio guys thought that was way off base and felt the Pats could get him back for 3/$25M or 4/$30-32M. I don't see any way Meyers would entertain something like that. At this point, NE is likely better off finding a disgruntled WR on a team with limited cap space and trading for him.However, that likely means they will have to trade decent draft picks AND redo the deal. Hopkins might have been a candidate, but not sure he can co-exist with BOB. The only other player I can see in a similar category would be Michael Thomas, and I don't think he would be a great acquisition given his injury history. The Giants would surely be willing to part with Golladay, but I am not sure he is a true WR1 candidate.

 

[Insomniac]

I don't see how any player like Myers even considers taking a "hometown" discount. Of those who last long enough to get to FA the vast majority only get 1 chance at a big contract. Even the ones who get it usually have to accept paycuts as they get near the end. It would be one thing to take a little less to play on a team that could contend for the Super Bowl, but that's not what this version of the Patriots is.
On a contender I see Myers as a #2 or #3 WR. What are those guys getting these days?

 

[Anarchy99]

Slater re-ups for another year.

I am fascinated by the Patriots parking situation this year. Season ticket holders get to park near the stadium for $25 a game, prepaid for easy access and departure. Parking for everyone else across the street for free. Parking in furthest lot not only free, but people willing to stay two hours past game end will get a $50 Visa gift card. Yes, they will pay you to have a staggered exit time. Tickets are going up an average of $24 a ticket, but that is more than offset by discounted parking. They are really trying to cut down on the traffic abomination.

 

[ratbast]

Slater re-ups for another year.

I am fascinated by the Patriots parking situation this year. Season ticket holders get to park near the stadium for $25 a game, prepaid for easy access and departure. Parking for everyone else across the street for free. Parking in furthest lot not only free, but people willing to stay two hours past game end will get a $50 Visa gift card. Yes, they will pay you to have a staggered exit time. Tickets are going up an average of $24 a ticket, but that is more than offset by discounted parking. They are really trying to cut down on the traffic abomination.

Hope it works! Stadium traffic after games and concerts is awful. Taking game train from NStation is great!

 

[Anarchy99]

Rumblings coming out from the combine that NE is willing to trade their #14 pick to acquire a veteran WR.

They’ve needed a WR threat for years, so better late than never if this materializes. I am guessing this probably means Meyers already has suitors willing to pay him more than NE is willing to go.

Not sure who might be in the candidate pool of potential targets. Keenan Allen?

 

[Anarchy99]

Devin McCourty retires. Jake Bailey released.

 

[Boston]

Devin McCourty retires. Jake Bailey released.

Great career and a legit leader...definite team Hall-of-Famer (not NFL Hall-of-Famer to clarify)...no one got more mileage out of the Rutgers program than BB...also, easy to forgot he was originally drafted to play CB...no surprise he is retiring but this opens up another hole on the team.

 

[Anarchy99]

ATL graciously sends a 7th rounder for Jonnu (suckers!) Jonathan Jones coming back.

 

[Boston]

Jonathan Jones back...two-year deal for 20 mil...like everything about this...they have enough holes already on this team, did not need to lose him and it is not a back-breaking deal at all.

NFL free agency 2023: Patriots re-signing Jonathan Jones to 2-year, $20M deal with $13M guaranteed, per report

Jones joined New England as an undrafted free agent in 2016

www.cbssports.com

 

[rockaction]

ATL graciously sends a 7th rounder for Jonnu (suckers!) Jonathan Jones coming back.

No. Jonnu is way more than serviceable in Arthur Smith's system for a seventh rounder. The Falcons got a steal. It was a horrible signing by the Patriots. Just terrible. And they wasted him in Patricia's system.

 

[Boston]

ATL graciously sends a 7th rounder for Jonnu (suckers!) Jonathan Jones coming back.

No. Jonnu is way more than serviceable in Arthur Smith's system for a seventh rounder. The Falcons got a steal. It was a horrible signing by the Patriots. Just terrible. And they wasted him in Patricia's system.

He was awful in McDaniels system as well.

 

[greenmountaingoat]

It’s hard to pin down the suck. 21 Cam-Jones might have been a tough transition.. certainly never materialized in the way I was dreaming of. But it sure seemed like Jonnu never had a clue during his routes about wtf was supposed to be happening. Patricia/Judge sheetshow was bad for everyone.

 

[rockaction]

He was awful in McDaniels system as well.

Yeah, I know that. He came to camp late and never got a hold of a really complex offense. Can't fault him for that.

He'll do so much better in Atlanta where they'll play to his strengths (he's a dynamite run blocker for such an agile guy).

Honestly, I've always been a Smith fan and I blame the ineptitude and/or demands of the Patriots the past two years for his inability to get anything going.

 

[Boston]

He was awful in McDaniels system as well.

Yeah, I know that. He came to camp late and never got a hold of a really complex offense. Can't fault him for that.

He'll do so much better in Atlanta where they'll play to his strengths (he's a dynamite run blocker for such an agile guy).

Honestly, I've always been a Smith fan and I blame the ineptitude and/or demands of the Patriots the past two years for his inability to get anything going.

He is a good run-blocker but is a liability everywhere else...a truly horrible signing for the Pats.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Did not like the signings of Agholor, Smith and Henry at the time, just terrible. They weren't good and the FO should have waited at least another year to start spending, but FO felt the pressure to do something, anything after TB won the SB without them. Just yuck.........

 

[menobrown]

I just read that TyQuan Thornthon is the only NE WR under contract. Is that true?

ETA-sorry, that’s under contract for 2024, my bad

 

[Boston]

Pats have a lot of work to do on offense...right now their top 3 WRs are Parker-Bourne-Thornton...not even sure who they have after Henry at TE...if Harris leaves, they will need another RB and if they don't believe in Strong or the other Harris it will have to be a solid one...and tackle is a position that needs a serious upgrade...I will try to be patient but I can't say I am overly confident in the direction this team is heading.

 

[IHEARTFF]

Pats have a lot of work to do on offense...right now their top 3 WRs are Parker-Bourne-Thornton...not even sure who they have after Henry at TE...if Harris leaves, they will need another RB and if they don't believe in Strong or the other Harris it will have to be a solid one...and tackle is a position that needs a serious upgrade...I will try to be patient but I can't say I am overly confident in the direction this team is heading.

I don't understand why they didnt want to keep Meyers. He was by far the best WR.

 

[Boston]

Pats have a lot of work to do on offense...right now their top 3 WRs are Parker-Bourne-Thornton...not even sure who they have after Henry at TE...if Harris leaves, they will need another RB and if they don't believe in Strong or the other Harris it will have to be a solid one...and tackle is a position that needs a serious upgrade...I will try to be patient but I can't say I am overly confident in the direction this team is heading.

I don't understand why they didnt want to keep Meyers. He was by far the best WR.

Originally, I thought they would lose him because he was going to get overpaid...he is good but absolutely not the type to overpay so I was good with letting him walk...the contract he got is a lot less than I thought he would get and very doable...my hope is it is because they are either getting an alpha like Hopkins or using a #1 on a WR like JSN...right now they are treading water until they get a legit #1...even if they had resigned Meyers that group was pretty mediocre...right now it is even worse so something has to give here.

 

[IHEARTFF]

Pats have a lot of work to do on offense...right now their top 3 WRs are Parker-Bourne-Thornton...not even sure who they have after Henry at TE...if Harris leaves, they will need another RB and if they don't believe in Strong or the other Harris it will have to be a solid one...and tackle is a position that needs a serious upgrade...I will try to be patient but I can't say I am overly confident in the direction this team is heading.

I don't understand why they didnt want to keep Meyers. He was by far the best WR.

Originally, I thought they would lose him because he was going to get overpaid...he is good but absolutely not the type to overpay so I was good with letting him walk...the contract he got is a lot less than I thought he would get and very doable...my hope is it is because they are either getting an alpha like Hopkins or using a #1 on a WR like JSN...right now they are treading water until they get a legit #1...even if they had resigned Meyers that group was pretty mediocre...right now it is even worse so something has to give here.

true if they are looking for a bigtime #1 I guess they cant afford to pay him too

 

[Boston]

Pats have a lot of work to do on offense...right now their top 3 WRs are Parker-Bourne-Thornton...not even sure who they have after Henry at TE...if Harris leaves, they will need another RB and if they don't believe in Strong or the other Harris it will have to be a solid one...and tackle is a position that needs a serious upgrade...I will try to be patient but I can't say I am overly confident in the direction this team is heading.

I don't understand why they didnt want to keep Meyers. He was by far the best WR.

Originally, I thought they would lose him because he was going to get overpaid...he is good but absolutely not the type to overpay so I was good with letting him walk...the contract he got is a lot less than I thought he would get and very doable...my hope is it is because they are either getting an alpha like Hopkins or using a #1 on a WR like JSN...right now they are treading water until they get a legit #1...even if they had resigned Meyers that group was pretty mediocre...right now it is even worse so something has to give here.

true if they are looking for a bigtime #1 I guess they cant afford to pay him too

That's at least what I am hoping...

 

[Boston]

Mike ReissESPN Staff Writer​

WR Jakobi Meyers' departure to the Raiders – on a 3-year, $33 million contract that includes $21 million guaranteed – is a surprising turn from a Patriots perspective. Meyers' projected financial market was expected to be more than $11 million per season. His defection also creates a void in the locker room, where Devin McCourty had identified Meyers as a future pillar from a leadership standpoint. DeVante Parker, Tyquan Thornton and Kendrick Bourne are the team's top three receivers.

 

[Boston]

An exciting start to free agency continues:

Report: Patriots tender RFA Myles Bryant at $2.6 million for 2023

Myles Bryant is coming back to the Patriots for the 2023 NFL season. Here are the details of his RFA tender.

www.nbcsports.com