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Indefinite New England Patriots Thread (3 Viewers)

Boston said:
Well, as stated above I don't believe the McDaniel part until I see one of the legit guys like Bedard/Giardi/Curran/Breer/Perry report it (and I think you may have to add in Minnihane as he has some sources it appears)...the second part I can see to a point but everything I have read says Vrabel has the final say and since he agreed to this prior to accepting the job I don't see it as an issue.
Click to expand...
Bedard was on BST last week with Giles and Gasper. They played the interview clip I mentioned when Vrabel didn't diss McDaniels, but he didn't embrace or support him either. Bedard at the time mentioned McDaniels would be a safe OC pick, just like Vrabel was a safe HC pick. If you remember, he was leading the charge that the Kraft's would not be bringing in people they didn't know again, nor would they bring in people without experience again. They brought up that Maye might benefit by McDaniels sticking around (vs. an upstart OC potentially moving on to be a HC in a year or two). Bedard wasn't impressed by that argument, suggesting that settling for a guy that no other team was interested in instead of bringing in an innovator and someone in tune with a modernized offense didn't sound like a win. He also seemed to agree that based on the Vrabel interview, it didn't sound like McDaniels would have been Vrabel's first choice.

Is that a power struggle? A precursor or an omen of friction ahead? Who knows? But I did hear an extended radio interview with one of the Titans beat guys on the radio the other day. His opinion was that things weren't rosy with Vrabel in TEN, as he was regarded as someone really difficult to get along and work with. The reporter didn't really elaborate, so I couldn't tell if he meant getting along with players, coaches, upper management, or ownership (or a cobination). All he said was good luck with Vrabel . . . we would find out soon enough. I don't even pretend to follow the Titans, so I don't know who this guy was or what he was referring to. Maybe @Bri knows who I am talking about and might have more insight on how the Vrabel era went in TEN and why this guy was saying he was difficult to work with.
 
Anarchy99 said:
Boston said:
Well, as stated above I don't believe the McDaniel part until I see one of the legit guys like Bedard/Giardi/Curran/Breer/Perry report it (and I think you may have to add in Minnihane as he has some sources it appears)...the second part I can see to a point but everything I have read says Vrabel has the final say and since he agreed to this prior to accepting the job I don't see it as an issue.
Click to expand...
Bedard was on BST last week with Giles and Gasper. They played the interview clip I mentioned when Vrabel didn't diss McDaniels, but he didn't embrace or support him either. Bedard at the time mentioned McDaniels would be a safe OC pick, just like Vrabel was a safe HC pick. If you remember, he was leading the charge that the Kraft's would not be bringing in people they didn't know again, nor would they bring in people without experience again. They brought up that Maye might benefit by McDaniels sticking around (vs. an upstart OC potentially moving on to be a HC in a year or two). Bedard wasn't impressed by that argument, suggesting that settling for a guy that no other team was interested in instead of bringing in an innovator and someone in tune with a modernized offense didn't sound like a win. He also seemed to agree that based on the Vrabel interview, it didn't sound like McDaniels would have been Vrabel's first choice.

Is that a power struggle? A precursor or an omen of friction ahead? Who knows? But I did hear an extended radio interview with one of the Titans beat guys on the radio the other day. His opinion was that things weren't rosy with Vrabel in TEN, as he was regarded as someone really difficult to get along and work with. The reporter didn't really elaborate, so I couldn't tell if he meant getting along with players, coaches, upper management, or ownership (or a cobination). All he said was good luck with Vrabel . . . we would find out soon enough. I don't even pretend to follow the Titans, so I don't know who this guy was or what he was referring to. Maybe @Bri knows who I am talking about and might have more insight on how the Vrabel era went in TEN and why this guy was saying he was difficult to work with.
Click to expand...

Some quotes from Bedards's BSJ article yesterday:

*This was absolutely the right move by Mike Vrabel. It gives the head coach — and quarterback Drake Maye — the best chance at long-term success.
Sure, there might have been younger candidates with higher upside, like 28-year-old Vikings assistant offensive coordinator/QBs coach Grant Udinski, who Vrabel interviewed for the job this week. And Vrabel going back to his previously preferred route to the Sean McVay/Kyle Shanahan tree made a lot of sense. And it could have been awesome.
But for how long?
That's the key question, and perhaps why Vrabel arrived back at McDaniels.

*It's an oft-told story in the NFL. Head coaches without an offensive background often run into trouble as their offensive coordinators get head coaching jobs.

*With McDaniels' hiring, Vrabel isn't making the same mistake twice.
While I'm sure McDaniels would love a third crack at being a head coach — and he's still only 48, so you never know — it will likely take some time for that to happen again. That means McDaniels is in the fold for at least five years, if not longer.
And that's exactly what Vrabel needs, and it's perfect for Maye.

*This might not be the splashiest hire. You might have wanted some more excitement and a fresh-looking offense. Understandable.
But this feels like the right hire, for Vrabel and Maye. Add in that McDaniels, as a two-time head coach who was truly Belichick's head coach/offense during the latter years, can free up Vrabel to do his HC thing/help the defense, and the Patriots seem to be set up for long-term success. The chance to have the same head coach, offensive coordinator and quarterback together for a decade-plus is extremely rare, and seemed to work out fairly well the last time it happened here.
 
I hate to state the obvious, but the thought of Vrabel, McDaniels, and Maye being together for 5 years or longer is extremely presumptuous. Belichick, Patricia, Mac Jones, Van Pelt, Covington, Mayo, O'Brien, and others learned that if you don't win, you don't have a job. That's how things work in the NFL. The names of the coaches have all changed, but the names of the players have not.

They still have one of (if not the) worst rosters in the league. I don't know how the team will do moving forward, but if they continue to be a Bottom 5 team, I can promise that this current regime won't last 5 or more years. Same thing with Maye. He could turn into the next big thing, but if he continues to lead a team that can't move the ball, is woefully unprepared, and rolls out untalented players, even he won't get a multi-year free pass. We can debate all we want about who is or isn't on the coaching staff . . . at this point that doesn't change that the roster has very few high impact players . . . and the front office has built up a lousy track record for bringing in talent.

IMO, the biggest problems were the lack of talent on the roster and the front office. Maybe they will make better decisions moving forward, but they need to hit on a lot more players this off-season or they could be in the same situation again next off-season (a terrible record and a lot of finger pointing).
 
MAC_32 said:
Boston said:
While I'm sure McDaniels would love a third crack at being a head coach — and he's still only 48, so you never know
Click to expand...
Never say never, but...

McDaniels is never gonna be a head coach again.
Click to expand...

Agreed...both times were a disaster...I could see a college job but not in the NFL...that ship has sailed...I heard Kyle Brandt say he will be part of the Norv Turner...excellent Coordinators who just aren't HC's.
 
Anarchy99 said:
Boston said:
Well, as stated above I don't believe the McDaniel part until I see one of the legit guys like Bedard/Giardi/Curran/Breer/Perry report it (and I think you may have to add in Minnihane as he has some sources it appears)...the second part I can see to a point but everything I have read says Vrabel has the final say and since he agreed to this prior to accepting the job I don't see it as an issue.
Click to expand...
Bedard was on BST last week with Giles and Gasper. They played the interview clip I mentioned when Vrabel didn't diss McDaniels, but he didn't embrace or support him either. Bedard at the time mentioned McDaniels would be a safe OC pick, just like Vrabel was a safe HC pick. If you remember, he was leading the charge that the Kraft's would not be bringing in people they didn't know again, nor would they bring in people without experience again. They brought up that Maye might benefit by McDaniels sticking around (vs. an upstart OC potentially moving on to be a HC in a year or two). Bedard wasn't impressed by that argument, suggesting that settling for a guy that no other team was interested in instead of bringing in an innovator and someone in tune with a modernized offense didn't sound like a win. He also seemed to agree that based on the Vrabel interview, it didn't sound like McDaniels would have been Vrabel's first choice.

Is that a power struggle? A precursor or an omen of friction ahead? Who knows? But I did hear an extended radio interview with one of the Titans beat guys on the radio the other day. His opinion was that things weren't rosy with Vrabel in TEN, as he was regarded as someone really difficult to get along and work with. The reporter didn't really elaborate, so I couldn't tell if he meant getting along with players, coaches, upper management, or ownership (or a cobination). All he said was good luck with Vrabel . . . we would find out soon enough. I don't even pretend to follow the Titans, so I don't know who this guy was or what he was referring to. Maybe @Bri knows who I am talking about and might have more insight on how the Vrabel era went in TEN and why this guy was saying he was difficult to work with.
Click to expand...
Typical new coach stuff. Mr agreeable day one and each year he got a bigger ego.
Like I said before it's like a tangible thing.

His "my guys" is typical of coaches hiring a staff. It was almost painful to watch him pretend Downing and Kelly were as good as Arthur and Lafleur.
The backup(!!!) Texans from a losing team being treated like gold as free agents was super out of touch.
The massive injuries and refusing to change habits and slowish starts and same refusing to change.

So this sets up a reporter with an obvious lob of a pitch follow-up question. He can't say "Tim Kelly is great" or whatever and not expect a reporter to second guess it like he made a proclamation so it's fact.

The Belichickian "we didn't do enough to win the game" statement. Did he think the presser was over after he said that?

He lobs them a pitch and gets grumpy when they hit it.

The Titans have an unusually experienced group of core reporters with 4-5 thirty years guys. He couldn't schmooze them.

All in all it wasn't that bad. He's a winner and he hates answering questions about losing often and it should be that way.

The end was very much a clone of Parcells wanting to buy the groceries. He had extra arrogance (just like his next door neighbor JRob) because he signed an extension. The ownership viewed it as too much. Go buy groceries elsewhere.

Reiss isn't going to be any different from Jim Wyatt. Bedard wont be different from Glennon etc.

In 2025, Vrabel will be easier for reporters to get along with. (I was in Q&A sessions with him even) He's got comfort calling out Mayo's players or Mayo's staff or whatever. Year two it's his guys and he gets sensitive.

It's predictable so it's tolerable. I wouldn't say it's a problem. I'm grumpy the team lost by 30. He's angry he answered Qs poorly..whatever, it meshes up.

It's just that ego. I swear it became a tangible thing.
 
Williams is always the same.
He might have a script or checklist in his head.

Let me tell you about his effort first.
We worked hard at this.
We watched film on that.
Executed well or didn't
We'll drill it til we get it perfect.
I have faith in that young man.

I remember him being "pushed" with further questions at an outside interview (video on Titans site) and he said do you mind if I show you? He was showing the reporter hand placement and..he will go into detail but he's a teacher so he's gonna teach with his response.

90% of the time it'll be the above. Simple and making sure you know he has faith in his player getting it done.

It's so predictable Vrabel can easily relate and have no worries or wonder if he said something wrong or any drama.
(Idk that McDaniels offers him the same. )

You'll hear some journeyman say that faith comment resonated or he's glad coach brought up his effort after being unnoticed on six teams and...he can definitely coach. He's 💯 a teacher first.

Kelly would give Henry eight carries and be saying he knows best and now Vrabel has to say Henry is a huge part of the offense and will get more carries. You could see Vrabel cringe. He refused to say his buddy messed up and ....long time reporters getting another LOB thrown their way.
 
Sorry so long, just imagine being a a longtime reporter and the lobs. I think you'll imagine a correct uncomfortable scenario for all
 
I mentioned him earlier. John Streicher was the name I couldn't think of.
He's Vrabel's Ernie. The Pats hired him.
David and Boston and...ya know this guy and his big role and not big role hypocrisy even if ya don't.
He's another Ernie Adams.
There will be some other things but this is the "spitting image" vibe OMG did you learn under Belichick. It's so odd but true.
Assume he's Ernie and y'all will have him pegged
 
Bri said:
I mentioned him earlier. John Streicher was the name I couldn't think of.
He's Vrabel's Ernie. The Pats hired him.
David and Boston and...ya know this guy and his big role and not big role hypocrisy even if ya don't.
He's another Ernie Adams.
There will be some other things but this is the "spitting image" vibe OMG did you learn under Belichick. It's so odd but true.
Assume he's Ernie and y'all will have him pegged
Click to expand...

The true brilliance of Ernie is we think we know what he did...but we really don't know.
 
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I listened to Hoyer on the morning drive maybe half hour ago.
He had a rant about how he can't believe people are down on Josh McDaniels and all he's done etc.
As he was saying "we did"... I couldn't help but think umm Hoyer is exactly who Vrabel would want. That Pats resume with rings and he gets to claim he developed another OC.

Also he got a bit much trying to sell Cam Newton as such a great job by Josh.
 
Bri said:
I listened to Hoyer on the morning drive maybe half hour ago.
He had a rant about how he can't believe people are down on Josh McDaniels and all he's done etc.
As he was saying "we did"... I couldn't help but think umm Hoyer is exactly who Vrabel would want. That Pats resume with rings and he gets to claim he developed another OC.

Also he got a bit much trying to sell Cam Newton as such a great job by Josh.
Click to expand...

It feels like Hoyer is starting to carve out a role in the media so my guess is that is his career path…as for Cam…he was horrific in the passing game…was painful to watch and it was pretty unacceptable that that was BB’s first answer for the post-Brady era…that being said McDaniels got as much out of him as you could…not sure you could do better with what he had to work with.
 
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kyoun1e said:
Another Vrabel (and McVay) guy coming over. Keep it comin'.

www.patspulpit.com

Rams assistant John Streicher joining Patriots’ staff, Sean McVay confirms

John Streicher held the role of game management coordinator in 2024.
www.patspulpit.com www.patspulpit.com

As an aside, Phil Perry's mock taking an OT at #4 made me throw up in my mouth.
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Drafting for need rather than BPA would be a mistake. Campbell will probably be a solid pro OL, but projects more as a guard than a tackle, and you can count on one hand the guards in NFL history that would be worth 4th overall, usually interior OL not worth the premium. I'm hoping they can pay for Ronnie Stanley in free agency and then take Carter at 4 (or maybe Graham). I wouldn't mind Tet either.
 
kyoun1e said:
As an aside, Phil Perry's mock taking an OT at #4 made me throw up in my mouth.
Click to expand...
They did such a good job at losing . . . until they had to lose. A few weeks later and what did it get them? Most of the coaching staff has been thrown overboard, I suspect a lot of the roster will be turned over, and all the win did was hurt them. Forty years from now, will the players from that game reminisce and tell their grandkids about the time they beat the Bills backups in Week 18?
 
Anarchy99 said:
kyoun1e said:
As an aside, Phil Perry's mock taking an OT at #4 made me throw up in my mouth.
Click to expand...
They did such a good job at losing . . . until they had to lose. A few weeks later and what did it get them? Most of the coaching staff has been thrown overboard, I suspect a lot of the roster will be turned over, and all the win did was hurt them. Forty years from now, will the players from that game reminisce and tell their grandkids about the time they beat the Bills backups in Week 18?
Click to expand...

Joe Milton may…
 
Boston said:
Anarchy99 said:
kyoun1e said:
As an aside, Phil Perry's mock taking an OT at #4 made me throw up in my mouth.
Click to expand...
They did such a good job at losing . . . until they had to lose. A few weeks later and what did it get them? Most of the coaching staff has been thrown overboard, I suspect a lot of the roster will be turned over, and all the win did was hurt them. Forty years from now, will the players from that game reminisce and tell their grandkids about the time they beat the Bills backups in Week 18?
Click to expand...

Joe Milton may…
Click to expand...
Miles Battle too, he was posing and celebrating batting down those Mike White ducks to Keon Coleman like it was anything impressive.
 
Boston said:
www.nbcsports.com

Report: Patriots hire Browns assistant Ashton Grant as their QBs coach

The Patriots are hiring Ashton Grant as their quarterbacks coach, Jonathan Jones of CBS Sports reports.
www.nbcsports.com www.nbcsports.com
Click to expand...
Never heard of him until now. I’m assuming McDaniels is still the true QB coach and Grant is someone there to learn under him and maybe be a future OC down the line. He’s worked with AVP, O’Shea, and Vrabel in Cleveland so there’s some slight New England familiarity there.
 
Did y'all see the Williams quotes yesterday? Hear any briefs from interviews?

Several how he's never been a DC calling plays. Some people stopping short of calling him a simpleton BUT noting the players and other coaches love the guy?

They don't get it. Completely misunderstood.

*****

Lions stud DL said Williams always told them they had to win their battle and let the coaches worry about the rest.

A LB said either hit a gap or this is my zone. Stay focused on this. Coaches worry about the rest.

He IS making the game simple. He is creating team unity and obliterating finger pointing. He's instilling accountability and a means to have a follow-up discussion. He's setting up the staff to be able to bark out some simple phrase from the sideline too. Now he can bark at his coaches middle of the game too.

The best coaches are the best teachers and they make the game simple. If eleven guys win their battle, the D did great.

They'll watch tape. They'll go over everything per normal but it will always come back to win your battle or cover your zone.

Jim Miller caught it and was OMG I'd love to play for this guy. Kirwan explained the best coaches can do this.

When he was head coach for the preseason games he was mic'd up barking at the OL coach, the T isn't winning his battle. Then he was barking at the OC you can't send em (RB) there (because they're not winning their battle) til they start winning. Backup TE comes in, doubles the DE and they do a great job, he looks over at the offensive staff. Next play, RB runs right there and off to the races. Smiles among the coaches. Players high fiving and all after a big run.
That! That's what he's doing.

It's not easy to manage 53 players and 20 coaches and he's doing it right.
He's nothing of a simpleton. OMG was all that so unaware.

This is exactly what you want.
Vrabel does a lot like this too and he seemed to steal a page from Williams in doing this.
Bad games, you'll see coaches discussing hands or a stance or something on the sideline that you know they're coaching to fix it ASAP. Vrabel sometimes mentions KISS from coaches during his Steelers days. It's all exactly what you want.

The Pats might stink next year. One of the grrr thoughts is .500 is probably a next step when you're wanting to go to the playoffs but you know .500 is the next step.

If they are blown out. If there's a huge run. You will be sitting on your couch noticing coaches coaching on the sideline. This is eons better than watching a game seeing that and all the coaches seem to have their arms folded just standing there.

One common misery quote is "what are they doing?" You'll know now and it stinks to be an NFL fan and think that all the time so it's like alright at least they're working on this.

It'll look weird that some DL is happy and the game is out of hand. You'll know though. That dude got beat ten times and was part of the problem and now he's consistently winning his battle so...smile DL enjoy it because that's what we need the next game.

David and Boston and kyounte- I promise. You WILL find this guy refreshing. It's just easier to be a fan with him there. Skip all these negatives. They don't get it. They don't know how you felt seeing the miserable games. This is eons better.

I'll stop rambling about him in here. It's just OMG he hasn't coached a day and people talking negatively totally threw me.
 
Boston said:
www.nbcsports.com

Report: Patriots hire Browns assistant Ashton Grant as their QBs coach

The Patriots are hiring Ashton Grant as their quarterbacks coach, Jonathan Jones of CBS Sports reports.
www.nbcsports.com www.nbcsports.com
Click to expand...
Odd choice.
Intriguing no name so Vrabel gets credit for finding him and...I get it but sitting here I can only think of Browns QB struggles.
It's fine. I have no idea what went on at practice but their offense has been a mess since Baker's last year. It could have nothing to do with him.
I just prefer having a positive vibe.
 
Bri said:
Boston said:
www.nbcsports.com

Report: Patriots hire Browns assistant Ashton Grant as their QBs coach

The Patriots are hiring Ashton Grant as their quarterbacks coach, Jonathan Jones of CBS Sports reports.
www.nbcsports.com www.nbcsports.com
Click to expand...
Odd choice.
Intriguing no name so Vrabel gets credit for finding him and...I get it but sitting here I can only think of Browns QB struggles.
It's fine. I have no idea what went on at practice but their offense has been a mess since Baker's last year. It could have nothing to do with him.
I just prefer having a positive vibe.
Click to expand...
The Browns QB play was pretty good in 2023, obviously not so much in 2024. That said as a young assistant who was pretty much at the bottom of the offensive coaching hierarchy, it’s uncertain how much credit or blame he is responsible for the QB play. He seems like just a guy in training, someone that will help take a little of the responsibility off McDaniels (i.e. allow McDaniels to focus on Maye while Grant helps with the other QBs). Someone for Vrabel and Co. to groom for a few years as a potential offensive coordinator down the line.
 
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Lansdowne said:
Bri said:
Boston said:
www.nbcsports.com

Report: Patriots hire Browns assistant Ashton Grant as their QBs coach

The Patriots are hiring Ashton Grant as their quarterbacks coach, Jonathan Jones of CBS Sports reports.
www.nbcsports.com www.nbcsports.com
Click to expand...
Odd choice.
Intriguing no name so Vrabel gets credit for finding him and...I get it but sitting here I can only think of Browns QB struggles.
It's fine. I have no idea what went on at practice but their offense has been a mess since Baker's last year. It could have nothing to do with him.
I just prefer having a positive vibe.
Click to expand...
The Browns QB play was pretty good in 2023, obviously not so much in 2024. That said as a young assistant who was pretty much at the bottom of the offensive coaching hierarchy, it’s uncertain how much credit or blame he is responsible for the QB play. He seems like just a guy in training, someone that will help take a little of the responsibility off McDaniels (i.e. allow McDaniels to focus on Maye while Grant helps with the other QBs). Someone for Vrabel and Co. to groom for a few years as a potential offensive coordinator down the line.
Click to expand...

Wonder what his personality is…McDaniels can be prickly at times…not sure of his age but Grant graduated from Assumption in 2017 which means he’s probably around 30…my guess is he will be a nice counter-balance to McDaniels alpha personality for Maye.
 
Vrabel & Company certainly have their work cut out for them. Looking over the last 2 regular seasons combined, there were 4 teams with 25+ wins (DET 27, KC 25, BAL 25, PHI 25 . . . BUF was next at 24). There were also 4 teams with fewer than 10 wins (NYG 9, TEN 9, NEP 8, and CAR 7).

On the points differential front, there were 3 teams at +200 points or more . . . BAL +360, BUF +297, and DET +288 (KCC was only ranked 8th at +136). On the low end of the scale, there were 4 teams at -200 points or worse . . . TEN -211, NEP -258, NYG -283, and CAR -373. Not gonna lie, the fact that NE is on both of these bottom feeder lists with their new head coach coming from one of the other teams also on the bottom feeder lists doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

Thinking positively, since the 2017 season, there were 18 teams that gained 5 wins from one season to the next. There were 3 last year (WAS +8, MIN +7, and LAC +6). The biggest gainer over that time was the Niners, who improved by 9 wins from 2018 to 2019. Quick turnarounds happen more frequently than you'd think (although most teams struggle to stay as playoff contenders consistently).

Listening to talk radio these days, the expectations for the new regime seem to be on the high side. Lots of talk of them either making the wildcard or at least competing for a WC spot on Week 18 next year . . . with 10 wins or more and a playoff win the following year. Hard to make any predictions until we know who's on the roster, but that seems more like wishful thinking to me.
 
Anarchy99 said:
Vrabel & Company certainly have their work cut out for them. Looking over the last 2 regular seasons combined, there were 4 teams with 25+ wins (DET 27, KC 25, BAL 25, PHI 25 . . . BUF was next at 24). There were also 4 teams with fewer than 10 wins (NYG 9, TEN 9, NEP 8, and CAR 7).

On the points differential front, there were 3 teams at +200 points or more . . . BAL +360, BUF +297, and DET +288 (KCC was only ranked 8th at +136). On the low end of the scale, there were 4 teams at -200 points or worse . . . TEN -211, NEP -258, NYG -283, and CAR -373. Not gonna lie, the fact that NE is on both of these bottom feeder lists with their new head coach coming from one of the other teams also on the bottom feeder lists doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

Thinking positively, since the 2017 season, there were 18 teams that gained 5 wins from one season to the next. There were 3 last year (WAS +8, MIN +7, and LAC +6). The biggest gainer over that time was the Niners, who improved by 9 wins from 2018 to 2019. Quick turnarounds happen more frequently than you'd think (although most teams struggle to stay as playoff contenders consistently).

Listening to talk radio these days, the expectations for the new regime seem to be on the high side. Lots of talk of them either making the wildcard or at least competing for a WC spot on Week 18 next year . . . with 10 wins or more and a playoff win the following year. Hard to make any predictions until we know who's on the roster, but that seems more like wishful thinking to me.
Click to expand...

I don’t know how anyone can make a prediction…yes, I fully expect the coaching to be light-years better but until we see what happens with the roster it is a complete unknown…their roster is so weak that even if they nail this off-season I think competing for a wildcard is very much wishful thinking…big picture if they can win 6 or 7 games and be a team that no one wants to play with a solid foundation of good young players I will consider the season a huge success…gotta walk before you can run.
 
Boston said:
Anarchy99 said:
Vrabel & Company certainly have their work cut out for them. Looking over the last 2 regular seasons combined, there were 4 teams with 25+ wins (DET 27, KC 25, BAL 25, PHI 25 . . . BUF was next at 24). There were also 4 teams with fewer than 10 wins (NYG 9, TEN 9, NEP 8, and CAR 7).

On the points differential front, there were 3 teams at +200 points or more . . . BAL +360, BUF +297, and DET +288 (KCC was only ranked 8th at +136). On the low end of the scale, there were 4 teams at -200 points or worse . . . TEN -211, NEP -258, NYG -283, and CAR -373. Not gonna lie, the fact that NE is on both of these bottom feeder lists with their new head coach coming from one of the other teams also on the bottom feeder lists doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

Thinking positively, since the 2017 season, there were 18 teams that gained 5 wins from one season to the next. There were 3 last year (WAS +8, MIN +7, and LAC +6). The biggest gainer over that time was the Niners, who improved by 9 wins from 2018 to 2019. Quick turnarounds happen more frequently than you'd think (although most teams struggle to stay as playoff contenders consistently).

Listening to talk radio these days, the expectations for the new regime seem to be on the high side. Lots of talk of them either making the wildcard or at least competing for a WC spot on Week 18 next year . . . with 10 wins or more and a playoff win the following year. Hard to make any predictions until we know who's on the roster, but that seems more like wishful thinking to me.
Click to expand...

I don’t know how anyone can make a prediction…yes, I fully expect the coaching to be light-years better but until we see what happens with the roster it is a complete unknown…their roster is so weak that even if they nail this off-season I think competing for a wildcard is very much wishful thinking…big picture if they can win 6 or 7 games and be a team that no one wants to play with a solid foundation of good young players I will consider the season a huge success…gotta walk before you can run.
Click to expand...
The Pats were a 4-win team this season and there were a good handful of close losses that could've been wins with better coaching. That's also taking into account they were very fortunate to win against the Bengals and Jets. Could've been a 2-win season with the team as is, could've been an 8+ win season if they'd been coached up by Vrabel's staff. It's all hypothetical but there's some optimism and some hope for the first time in what feels like a very long time.
 
Lansdowne said:
Boston said:
Anarchy99 said:
Vrabel & Company certainly have their work cut out for them. Looking over the last 2 regular seasons combined, there were 4 teams with 25+ wins (DET 27, KC 25, BAL 25, PHI 25 . . . BUF was next at 24). There were also 4 teams with fewer than 10 wins (NYG 9, TEN 9, NEP 8, and CAR 7).

On the points differential front, there were 3 teams at +200 points or more . . . BAL +360, BUF +297, and DET +288 (KCC was only ranked 8th at +136). On the low end of the scale, there were 4 teams at -200 points or worse . . . TEN -211, NEP -258, NYG -283, and CAR -373. Not gonna lie, the fact that NE is on both of these bottom feeder lists with their new head coach coming from one of the other teams also on the bottom feeder lists doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

Thinking positively, since the 2017 season, there were 18 teams that gained 5 wins from one season to the next. There were 3 last year (WAS +8, MIN +7, and LAC +6). The biggest gainer over that time was the Niners, who improved by 9 wins from 2018 to 2019. Quick turnarounds happen more frequently than you'd think (although most teams struggle to stay as playoff contenders consistently).

Listening to talk radio these days, the expectations for the new regime seem to be on the high side. Lots of talk of them either making the wildcard or at least competing for a WC spot on Week 18 next year . . . with 10 wins or more and a playoff win the following year. Hard to make any predictions until we know who's on the roster, but that seems more like wishful thinking to me.
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I don’t know how anyone can make a prediction…yes, I fully expect the coaching to be light-years better but until we see what happens with the roster it is a complete unknown…their roster is so weak that even if they nail this off-season I think competing for a wildcard is very much wishful thinking…big picture if they can win 6 or 7 games and be a team that no one wants to play with a solid foundation of good young players I will consider the season a huge success…gotta walk before you can run.
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The Pats were a 4-win team this season and there were a good handful of close losses that could've been wins with better coaching. That's also taking into account they were very fortunate to win against the Bengals and Jets. Could've been a 2-win season with the team as is, could've been an 8+ win season if they'd been coached up by Vrabel's staff. It's all hypothetical but there's some optimism and some hope for the first time in what feels like a very long time.
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Totally agree about the optimism…right now I am very happy about the off-season…just trying to be realistic until I see what happens on the personnel-side of things…they can make a lot of noise in free agency but they are not gonna get out of this hole until they have a couple of lights out drafts.
 
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Boston said:
I don’t know how anyone can make a prediction
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The logic behind the discussion was NE would improve by 1) doing much better in the draft and hitting on multiple difference makers, 2) bringing in at least one elite free agent with several other players coming in to provide significant help with the rest of their cap dollars, and 3) gaining 1-2 wins from having a capable coaching staff. That paints a pretty rosy picture of what could happen . . . but as we all know, it rarely is that easy.

What I mostly think is getting way overblown is pointing out successes from back in the day. Vrabel 3 rings. McDaniels and the Kraft's both with 6 rings. Neither the team nor the coaches have had much recent success, and the state of the roster is about as far away from SB contention worthy as you can get. Using this logic (past success = present day success), Vrabel should still be coaching the Titans, who would be preparing to face the Chiefs . . . who might not even be there because McDaniels turned around the Raiders.

Lansdowne said:
It's all hypothetical but there's some optimism and some hope for the first time in what feels like a very long time.
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The hope is coming from making changes. That's natural . . . but as we have been discussing, there haven't been any changes to the roster, so realistically, not a ton has changed. I'm not sure how many more winnable games there were this year. Bad teams find ways to lose. Good teams find ways to win. They went 3-6 in games decided by one score. Maybe they could have won 1 or 2 more (or lost 1 or 2 more). Water under the bridge at this point.
 
Anarchy99 said:
Vrabel & Company certainly have their work cut out for them. Looking over the last 2 regular seasons combined, there were 4 teams with 25+ wins (DET 27, KC 25, BAL 25, PHI 25 . . . BUF was next at 24). There were also 4 teams with fewer than 10 wins (NYG 9, TEN 9, NEP 8, and CAR 7).

On the points differential front, there were 3 teams at +200 points or more . . . BAL +360, BUF +297, and DET +288 (KCC was only ranked 8th at +136). On the low end of the scale, there were 4 teams at -200 points or worse . . . TEN -211, NEP -258, NYG -283, and CAR -373. Not gonna lie, the fact that NE is on both of these bottom feeder lists with their new head coach coming from one of the other teams also on the bottom feeder lists doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

Thinking positively, since the 2017 season, there were 18 teams that gained 5 wins from one season to the next. There were 3 last year (WAS +8, MIN +7, and LAC +6). The biggest gainer over that time was the Niners, who improved by 9 wins from 2018 to 2019. Quick turnarounds happen more frequently than you'd think (although most teams struggle to stay as playoff contenders consistently).

Listening to talk radio these days, the expectations for the new regime seem to be on the high side. Lots of talk of them either making the wildcard or at least competing for a WC spot on Week 18 next year . . . with 10 wins or more and a playoff win the following year. Hard to make any predictions until we know who's on the roster, but that seems more like wishful thinking to me.
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The schedule seems pretty favorable.

I'm hoping for six wins, but what is clearly visible is a positive trajectory the last third of the season...win or lose.
 
kyoun1e said:
The schedule seems pretty favorable.
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This is the best argument for NE having a better record next season. Every year is different, and teams will change from year to year, but the Pats will play 8 teams that won 5 or fewer games this past season (NYJ x 2, CAR, NOS, LVR, CLE, TEN, NYG).
 
Going back 10 years, not many teams have had back-to-back seasons with 4 or fewer wins. Most of the time, those teams did better the third year.

ARI had 4, 4, and then 8 wins.
CIN had 2, 4, and then 10 wins.
CLE had 3, 1, and then 0 wins (but 7 the season after that).
HOU had 4, 4, and then 3 wins (but 10 the season after that).
JAC had 1, 3, and then 9 wins.
NYJ had 2, 4, then 7 wins.
TEN had 2, 3, then 9 wins.
WAS had 3, 4, then 9 wins.
 
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During Callahan's recent interview he said how he fixed the injury situation was simply to add more trainers. He doubled the number of trainers Vrabel had.

On the radio they were saying Vrabel never had a top CB like Gonzalez and how they're unsure how he'll incorporate that into the defense. I didn't get that that.
He did. Adoree was as talented as any corner, possibly ever. Fulton was mid first round IIRC. They each had an excellent season of shut down work. Young Adoree was the best I've ever seen on Tyreek Hill. He followed Cheetah everywhere and actually went step for step with the speedy Hill and throughout the game I kept saying I knew he was fast but I didn't know he was that fast.

Titans had a CB reclamation project years before under Mularkey. Forget his name, OK St CB, highly rated but career spiraling. Mularkey and the DB coach talked constantly about how important confidence was for DBs going against the best of the best athletes in the world. They had to believe they could shut down this 6-4 WR that can leap out of a gym, run like the wind, catch a ping pong ball out of thin air etc. So this CB was a pleasant surprise and then he batted a ball that got caught. A week or so later and he intercepted it but fumbled on the return. He got absolutely lit up the next two games and was cut and no one picked him up. I was taken back by how easy it was to fix him and then how fast that all transpired.

Back to Adoree and Fulton. Vrabel rode them. If they held a top WR to like 3 for 30 he'd say something like yeah he did alright. If they didn't play well he called em out in the press and I didn't like that. They would get injured more often and with each I wondered if that was on Vrabel. Not...just that after everything he had said if each just wasn't inclined to push it and play through injuries as often as we'd expect.
Adoree hasn't looked as good as he did as a young player. He was pretty questionable with NYG.
Fulton did well with the Chargers this year. Above average though, not top CB type. He had a couple interviews where he didn't directly call out Vrabel, but said how he appreciated how Harbaugh and the DB coach handle things.

I do wonder about Vrabel and Gonzalez. He doesn't need to handle him with kids gloves but how about just treat him the same as everyone else?

Titans always said they'd keep whichever top CB but I don't think they ever did. I was always figuring the non public point of view was it's cheaper to draft a top CB than to pay one after year five.
 
Another thing I was remembering- during camp Vrabel has some plans with star players. It was always reported w Henry but he gave the same treatment to maybe seven players per year.
He works em like a dog for a day or two and then for a day or two they're on the sideline doing next to nothing light work stuff.

In season, he is sooo "offended" so let down if one of these gems doesn't play well.

Whenever a name player is in Bussin' they've always got stories like this too. Why call me out like that and how It'll be a harder than usual week of practice til ya get Vrabel off your back by playing well. This is not to say they didn't live Vrabes. They shine on him a lot. It was just something "the boys" always mention in that show.
 
Radio yesterday mentioned what I said earlier, Titans and Pats likely to be in a low key bidding war to add Marcus Mariota. Commanders surely want to keep him. How much will the free agent get that doesn't even play and isn't expected to play?

Vrabel loves him every bit that the Titans do.

That's going to be a curious free agency.
 
Bri said:
Radio yesterday mentioned what I said earlier, Titans and Pats likely to be in a low key bidding war to add Marcus Mariota. Commanders surely want to keep him. How much will the free agent get that doesn't even play and isn't expected to play?

Vrabel loves him every bit that the Titans do.

That's going to be a curious free agency.
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That's interesting.

Wouldn't think they'd bother with Milton in the fold and having another offseason to develop.
 
kyoun1e said:
Bri said:
Radio yesterday mentioned what I said earlier, Titans and Pats likely to be in a low key bidding war to add Marcus Mariota. Commanders surely want to keep him. How much will the free agent get that doesn't even play and isn't expected to play?

Vrabel loves him every bit that the Titans do.

That's going to be a curious free agency.
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That's interesting.

Wouldn't think they'd bother with Milton in the fold and having another offseason to develop.
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His HS coach was phenomenal. I don't remember 6? pro QBs? Belichick went to visit him and Saban quickly followed making him an offer to be Alabama's offensive consultant/QB coach. Tua, Mac, Young...idk if Milroe maybe as frosh.
Anywho, Mariota seems to also have a gift with the young QBs and he's an absolute gem for the locker room. Such an OMG good guy that still credits his mother and everyone else for any success.

The concept is he's doing what he was taught and Jayden Daniels raves about him.
There's no reason he can't influence Maye and Milton.

He's starting to remind me of Kellen Moore switching from QB to QB coach at like 28. Idk how old Mariota is but there's that same weird "well if he's good at it, why not" vibe.
 
Bri said:
kyoun1e said:
Bri said:
Radio yesterday mentioned what I said earlier, Titans and Pats likely to be in a low key bidding war to add Marcus Mariota. Commanders surely want to keep him. How much will the free agent get that doesn't even play and isn't expected to play?

Vrabel loves him every bit that the Titans do.

That's going to be a curious free agency.
Click to expand...
That's interesting.

Wouldn't think they'd bother with Milton in the fold and having another offseason to develop.
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His HS coach was phenomenal. I don't remember 6? pro QBs? Belichick went to visit him and Saban quickly followed making him an offer to be Alabama's offensive consultant/QB coach. Tua, Mac, Young...idk if Milroe maybe as frosh.
Anywho, Mariota seems to also have a gift with the young QBs and he's an absolute gem for the locker room. Such an OMG good guy that still credits his mother and everyone else for any success.

The concept is he's doing what he was taught and Jayden Daniels raves about him.
There's no reason he can't influence Maye and Milton.

He's starting to remind me of Kellen Moore switching from QB to QB coach at like 28. Idk how old Mariota is but there's that same weird "well if he's good at it, why not" vibe.
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www.si.com

Commanders' Marcus Mariota Integral to Jayden Daniels' Success

In a league where rookies often face the harshest learning curves, Washington Commanders rookie quarterback Jayden Daniels has found an anchor in veteran Marcus
www.si.com www.si.com

Then here

x.com

x.com x.com

Vrabel would love that and know that's what ya get from him. He's always been this quiet introvert leader but here LB Wagner and TE Ertz and whoever else are mentioned- just stay consistent, do your job, prepare....all the coach speak but the backup QB is making sure everyone is on the same page. I'm overstating this video a bit but this stuff is so common.

He even said something like if I can't be QB1 then I need to be the best teammate I can be and...OMG coaches eat that right up
 
Hires coming fast and furious.

On the surface, Doug Marrone as the O-line coordinator has to be a good thing. Wasn't he the Jags HC back when Fournette was pounding the ball there?
 
kyoun1e said:
Hires coming fast and furious.

On the surface, Doug Marrone as the O-line coordinator has to be a good thing. Wasn't he the Jags HC back when Fournette was pounding the ball there?
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RB history under Marrone . . .

2002 - NYJ OL Coach - Curtis Martin (Combined for 1450 YFS / 7 TD)
2003 - NYJ OL Coach - Martin (1575 / 3)
2004 - NYJ OL Coach - Martin (1950 / 14)
2005 - NYJ OL Coach - Martin & Cedric Houston (1200 / 7)
2006 - NOS OC - Deuce McAllister & Reggie Bush (2550 / 18)
2007 - NOS OC - Bush & Aaron Stecker (1650 / 11)
2008 - NOS OC - Pierre Thomas & Bush (1750 / 18)
2013 - BUF HC - CJ Spiller & Fred Jackson (2400 YFS / 12)
2014 - BUF HC - Jackson (1025 / 3)
2016 - JAC Asst / HC - TJ Yeldon & Chris Ivory (1400 / 5)
2017 - JAC HC - Fournette & Ivory (1900 / 12)
2018 - JAC HC - Yeldon & Fournette (1500 / 11)
2019 - JAC HC - Fournette (1675 / 3)
2020 - JAC HC - James Robinson (1400 / 10)
2022 - NOS OL Coach - Alvin Kamara (1400 / 4)
2023 - NOS OL Coach - Kamara & Jamaal Williams (1525 / 7)
 
I have to admit, NE very much intrigues me for 2025 as a sleeper team in the AFC. Past the superficial similarities of young QB, new HC on his 2nd life we just witnessed in DC.

I certainly think this team will be much more in lockstep related to playing a certain 'brand' of football that Vrabel establishes. And as much as Mayo was in over his head, I never felt like the team quit on him which IMO is a testament to the legacy of The Patriot Way.

Obviously we have to see the personnel they bring in because the elephant in the room is a poor talent base. But .500 area is within reason here.
 
Lansdowne said:
Very happy with the OL (Doug Marrone) and TE (Thomas Brown) hires. Crossing my fingers for Brian Hartline for WR.
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Marrone coached the OL at BC with OBrien as HC.
He's a former tackle.
I think he's an exceptional talent evaluator from a coach's perspective. He'll say things like this guy may do this well, but since he can't do that well, then XYZ will always be an issue.

Suppose many Pats were bad and needed to be replaced. They can't replace the whole roster in one year. Some times they're going to have to keep what the can deal with and cut what's the biggest concern.

He's going to be explaining this to Vrabel in meetings.
In season, same weakness, he'll be saying how the defense is likely to attack those.

He's a fascinating interview that will probably give you a lot to chew on once he's dug in.

His problem has really been that he's not always blessed with the ability to overcome. The Jags and Bills couldn't always stop what we knew was coming and it got frustrating for their fans. Vrabel has his own thoughts and he has people for that though. I think he's an excellent addition.

You're guaranteed now to cut some OL and DL that probably bugged you in 2024. You can certainly find comfort in that right now- it's just a matter of time.

The Titans have had a long time tradition (regardless of HC) where the red zone coordinator was a thing and they would often be the next OC. This is a smash mouth coordinator position. It has been wildly successful. Callahan wrecked the 15? year tradition. Vrabel probably uses it. As long as you've got a smash mouth style, you can try things and not fear messing up so much. Run Henry here, have George dive, CJ race to the corner, etc. It's a very simple way to give an up n coming coordinator an opportunity to call plays. Not getting three points is part of "winning football" and Vrabes will say that.

If the Pats don't have a guy he thinks is this role, I'd guess Marrone does it until he finds this guy. You'll see the extra tackle, the FB, the good blocking TE...you'll know they just put the big boys out there to smash some people.

It's very important to Vrabel and something many of us can't stand just like him is OCs getting cute in the red zone.

I'm positive this if a feel good hire for you guys too. Look for Marrone to attend some of these college all star things and pro days and I bet what he says speaks right to your prior frustration and is of some comfort
 
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