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Indefinite New England Patriots Thread (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter captain_amazing
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
I say this every year. Give me a list of the Patriots opening day roster and then we can have a real debate. All those that will suggest the sky is falling between now and September need to keep in mind that everything is part of a process.
If I had to guess, the Pats would have gone even further over the cap by franchising McCourty. From what I can tell, they need to TRIM $8 million in cap commitments by next week (and that does not account for the $4.5 million in cap space they need for Gostkowski) . . . which ultimately may have led them to outright releasing a player or two they wanted to retain by next week to get under the cap.
McCourty tweeted that he was working on his recruiting package earlier today, so one would be inclined to think that re-signing in NE was not imminent.
If I had to guess, the Pats would have gone even further over the cap by franchising McCourty. From what I can tell, they need to TRIM $8 million in cap commitments by next week (and that does not account for the $4.5 million in cap space they need for Gostkowski) . . . which ultimately may have led them to outright releasing a player or two they wanted to retain by next week to get under the cap.
McCourty tweeted that he was working on his recruiting package earlier today, so one would be inclined to think that re-signing in NE was not imminent.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
As a sidebar conversation, I think SB teams are at a disadvantage when it comes to trying to prep for the following season and get their salary cap situation in order.
Non playoff teams had their season end on 12/28 . . . giving them 72 days until the start of the new NFL year. SB teams get roughly half the time . . . only 37 days from the SB until the start of the new calendar year.
Certainly a team would rather win and worry about the following year in a reduced timeframe, but it does make life more difficult. Realistically, what were the Pats going to do? Hey Vince, put down the champagne and stop celebrating because if you don't restructure we are going to cut you. Not a lot of easy transitions in conversations from riding the duck boats to playing heavy handed to get guys to stay on the team.
Non playoff teams had their season end on 12/28 . . . giving them 72 days until the start of the new NFL year. SB teams get roughly half the time . . . only 37 days from the SB until the start of the new calendar year.
Certainly a team would rather win and worry about the following year in a reduced timeframe, but it does make life more difficult. Realistically, what were the Pats going to do? Hey Vince, put down the champagne and stop celebrating because if you don't restructure we are going to cut you. Not a lot of easy transitions in conversations from riding the duck boats to playing heavy handed to get guys to stay on the team.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Since most of the media doesn't fully understand how the salary cap works (all teams have to be under the cap by 3/10), NE is currently $12 million OVER the cap. There is no wiggle room in the NFL. Teams HAVE to get under the cap by that date. The easiest solution would be to cut Revis, as they would immediately be back in compliance by shaving $20 million off their cap). If they were able to redo his contract this week, my guess would be that he would still carry a $12 million cap hit for this year (he has $5 million that still has to be accounted for from his existing contract, but that could be spread out over the course of a new deal).
The point being, that even extending Revis they would still be over the cap (in my example by $4 million) and would need other guys to restructure or release players to get under the cap. And most importantly, they still would have no cap space (not yet at least) to retain McCourty. Bear all this in mind when there will be talk of adding guys like Andre Johnson or other players. They just don't have the cap space (until things change cap wise).
The point being, that even extending Revis they would still be over the cap (in my example by $4 million) and would need other guys to restructure or release players to get under the cap. And most importantly, they still would have no cap space (not yet at least) to retain McCourty. Bear all this in mind when there will be talk of adding guys like Andre Johnson or other players. They just don't have the cap space (until things change cap wise).
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
IMHO,
Unless, Wilfork and Mayo are willing to accept bottom of the barrel deals I think they are gone and if they keep Revis and Mcourty it wouldn't shock me to see Browner let go. I think they really want to keep Revis, and there is a good chance they will; however, if I had to bet on it, when push comes to shove I bet he is more interested in money than winning and sadly they won't be able to match what other teams will offer.
Unless, Wilfork and Mayo are willing to accept bottom of the barrel deals I think they are gone and if they keep Revis and Mcourty it wouldn't shock me to see Browner let go. I think they really want to keep Revis, and there is a good chance they will; however, if I had to bet on it, when push comes to shove I bet he is more interested in money than winning and sadly they won't be able to match what other teams will offer.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
I love all these guys, but I can't begrudge them going where they can do the most for themselves. I'm sorry to editorialize but I saw these this morning and it really ticked me off.
Danny Kanell @dannykanell 5h5 hours ago
.@Espngreeny it's simple really -- as a society we have moved away from doing things for the good of others to all about SELF
Danny Kanell @dannykanell 5h5 hours ago
Everyone wants to get "theirs" -- from the pro athlete getting his big max deal to college athlete saying a free education isn't enough
Danny Kanell @dannykanell 5h5 hours ago
How often do you see athletes choose teams to win championships anymore?? It's all about getting that max deal. #getpaid
Idiot. These people have a chance to better their lot and that of their families for generations. Up yours Danny. Plus being a JAG you never had that choice to make.
Anyway. I hope we sign them all. Sometimes the ancillary stuff from playing on a contender/nationally relevant team can make the math add up.
edit: Name an owner who's sacrificed.
Danny Kanell @dannykanell 5h5 hours ago
.@Espngreeny it's simple really -- as a society we have moved away from doing things for the good of others to all about SELF
Danny Kanell @dannykanell 5h5 hours ago
Everyone wants to get "theirs" -- from the pro athlete getting his big max deal to college athlete saying a free education isn't enough
Danny Kanell @dannykanell 5h5 hours ago
How often do you see athletes choose teams to win championships anymore?? It's all about getting that max deal. #getpaid
Idiot. These people have a chance to better their lot and that of their families for generations. Up yours Danny. Plus being a JAG you never had that choice to make.
Anyway. I hope we sign them all. Sometimes the ancillary stuff from playing on a contender/nationally relevant team can make the math add up.
edit: Name an owner who's sacrificed.
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Casting Couch
Footballguy
Agreed. Revis already has his ring. It may be back to the mercenary ways for him. Selling himself to the highest bidder. It's a shame, because he could win one or two more if he decides to stay.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
I'm not commenting on Kanell's opinions or comments.
But for me its not about Owner vs Player; there is a salary cap that all teams spend to, its about how much you assign to each position\player and building a competitive team.
I don't begrudge anyone anything, but some people (players) are more greedy than others.
Guys like Mcourty, Vereen certainly ought to go out and try and get everything they can.
Guys like Revis and Manning already have more money than god, how much do you need? I will be shocked if Manning takes significantly less, he isn't built that way, he wants every dime he can get no matter what even if he knows it means the quality of the team around him will suffer for it and affect his chances of winning. You would think at his age he would care more about winning than money, but I honestly don't think he does.
IMHO, guys like Brusci & Brady (there are others) take "a little" less because they value winning a little more than a lot of other guys do. They already have more money than they could have dreamed they would make and took less to stay in good situations, nothing wrong with that in my book and were I in their position I know I would od the same. To each his own, but don't greedily demand every ### #### penny a team can pay you and then whine about not having a defense..................feel me?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
IIRC, Brady cannot free up anything. He just redid his deal a couple of months ago, dropping his full guaranteed salaries to injury only guarantees in exchange for an extra $1 million each season. Players can only change their contracts once in a calendar year.
For whoever suggested cutting Browner, I don't think they do anything with him. He is relatively inexpensive for a CB. His base salary this year is only $1.9 million. That's peanuts for what he brings to the table. He carries a $4.8 million cap charge, but that is not bad for a starting CB.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
I hadn't given it much thought, but Zolak mentioned it as a possibility this morning, saying basically it may come down to releasing Browner if they want to keep Revis and Mcourty. Not saying it is likely, but it sounded like a possibility.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Unfortunately, the sports media members are a bit out of the loop on capology and the fine print that is involved with a lot of things. They may have some good talking points, but a lot of times they connect dots that are not connected. Arrington is a much more likely candidate to restructure, as his base salary is $3 million. They would save $1.625 million by releasing him.
They really can't cut Mayo now as he has an injury guarantee for $4.5 million. He is considered injured, so they would have to pay him $4.5 million to cut him (and eat that amount as a cap charge). A restructure is more likely (or they could hold on to him, make him pass a physical, put him on their active roster, and then release him . . . but he would likely not pass a physical yet).
They really can't cut Mayo now as he has an injury guarantee for $4.5 million. He is considered injured, so they would have to pay him $4.5 million to cut him (and eat that amount as a cap charge). A restructure is more likely (or they could hold on to him, make him pass a physical, put him on their active roster, and then release him . . . but he would likely not pass a physical yet).
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12punch
Footballguy
oh yeah, I forgot about that -- good catch.
I would've assumed it was league year, but being calendar year I looked it up and it was on 12/29!
yay!
these guys know what they're doing.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Cap savings for guys that I see that make some sort of sense to cut if they had to . . .
Revis $20M
Wilfork $7M
Solder $6.9M
Amendola $1.6M
Wendell $1.5M
Dennard $1M
I guess Browner would be a candidate after all (although it doesn't make a lot of sense other than a dump to clearing cap room) with a potential $4.8 million cap savings.
Cutting Mayo right now would actually cost the Pats $700K in an additional cap hit.
Revis $20M
Wilfork $7M
Solder $6.9M
Amendola $1.6M
Wendell $1.5M
Dennard $1M
I guess Browner would be a candidate after all (although it doesn't make a lot of sense other than a dump to clearing cap room) with a potential $4.8 million cap savings.
Cutting Mayo right now would actually cost the Pats $700K in an additional cap hit.
12punch
Footballguy
debartolo
that said, I agree it gets kind of ridiculous expecting guys to turn down millions so you can trash talk your buddy at the watercooler on mondays.
I really hope we get mccourty and revis back, but let them do whatever they want with their lives, like everybody else does.
I have no idea wtf kanell does for a living besides twittering, but I can pretty much guarantee you he'd take an extra 5m to work elsewhere.
it's great that brady takes a below market deal to stay here, and we're all lucky for that, and hopefully appreciative, but this is basically his hobby at this point.
the only players who annoy me are the deion branches --- if leaks are at all accurate, the pats made that guy a more than fair offer that was actually more than he was worth, and despite still being under contract he forced his way out of town for a couple extra bux and screwed the whole team in the process.
if some guy wants to take a better offer in fa, I can't begrudge him that.
whether it's the jets, or seattle.
Cutting Arrington would be a bonus even if we didn't save a dime in cap space. The guy was abused like a rented mule in the SB before he was benched. I could live without him being around next year. Browner is a steal given his cap # and is worth a hell of a lot more than he is getting.
ETA: WTF we have Wilfork on the books still for 7 mil is beyond me. That should be the first deal redone or adios Vince and thanks for everything.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Vince got an incentive laden deal that contained a lot of clauses and bonuses. His 2014 salary was only $1.4 million. He got $2 million in weight and roster bonuses. He also got $2.5 million in snaps played and making the playoffs bonuses.
That made his cap number $8.9 million for this year. He is due a $4 million roster bonus on 3/10, so they need to move quickly if they want to dig out of the hole they made with trying to juggle Vince and his cap charges.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
Curious about McCourty. Anybody see a sea change happening in terms of remuneration for smart, versatile safeties? I just wonder if Bill will lead the way on this. So much more time spent in sub packages nowadays. Plus the rise of the slot guys.
12punch
Footballguy
Revis $20M - definitely cutting that number
Wilfork $7M - this is interesting because vince has been the mvp of our defense for a number of years, they just gave him that deal less than 12 months ago, and people are talking about cutting him
I think roster bonuses are treated like salary for cap accounting, so maybe they can convert that 4.5m roster bonus into something that spreads and maybe push 2-3m into next year?
Solder $6.9M - didn't they just pick that option year up? I don't see them cutting their LT, but an extension could possibly shave that down a few million
Amendola $1.6M - I might be a bigger amendola fan than many of my fellow pats fans, and while it might not seem like he's worth the money, I think he's definitely worth keeping at that savings --- maybe they can get him to shave down a million, or something like that
Wendell $1.5M
Dennard $1M - probably has to be considered a bubble guy
12punch
Footballguy
I don't think that's really fair to either guy.
I know we all probably have this image of hobbs getting burned over the top in the endzone, or getting called for dpi trying to defend some dude a foot taller than he was, but to be fair to the guy, there were certainly worse alternatives, and he was a pretty tough little *******, playing hurt even on special teams.
guy can't help it if he's 4'6".
arrington is a slot corner, and he's a good slot corner if you keep him inside, but maybe not always so consistent on bigger guys outside.
as already mentioned, how'd he do in the games leading up to the superbowl?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
McCourty still wants to be and thinks he will be a Patriot, so that is a good sign.
However, he could command top dollar as a free agent if he so chooses. There are no other top tier safeties on the market and the incoming class of safeties (from what I have heard) is considered extremely week. With tons of teams having tens of millions in cap space, someone could pay him $10 million a year. He has been ranked in the top couple of safeties based on performance metrics since switching over from CB.
He will take a home town discount, but I doubt he plays for 50 cents on the dollar just to stick with the Patriots.
Agreed they are different players as Arrington is primarily a slot cb but they both have a penchant for coming up small in big games.12punch said:
I also know that Arrington was the weak link in the chain as both GB & Seattle exploited him repeatedly. Baltimore exploited him too. Indy was abysmal in every aspect so I don't credit him for much in that game.
I just don't have much faith in him after his showing vs those teams. If we lose Revis we all of a sudden go from a secondary that is a strength to one that is a liability. Arrington to me is no more than a situational/ nickle back at best. The days of winning SB's with Troy Brown and Randall Gay on the back end are over.
From everything I have heard McCourty is getting ready to put out his resume to other teams and doesn't think he will be back in NE. It's hard to know what to believe. I think McCourty will get far more on the open market than the Pats will be willing to pay for a fs. My gut feeling is the Pats know they most likely can't keep him, especially if they intend on keeping Revis.Anarchy99 said:
Anarchy99
Footballguy
That's not how I interpreted what he said. I viewed his comments as he may have to start considering other options and there is a greater chance he plays on another team today than there was two days ago.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
They can't cut Mayo today, but he will be cut or restructured before the season starts imho.Anarchy99 said:
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Where is anyone saying he needs to pass a physical before next week, or even that he will be cut before next week? I specifically said before the season starts.
As for the 4.5 million, I don't think it applies if he passes a physical before the season starts; at least that is the way it appears from what Miguel wrote:
http://www.patsfans.com/salary-cap/?p=1354
Lots of options listed, such as this one:
Cut or Trade Jerod Mayo after June 1:
That means the Pats would carry his $6.25 million salary and his $187,500 roster bonus on their books until June 2nd. After June 1st he would be traded. His 2015 cap number would then drop from $10,287,500 to $3,850,000 ($3.6 million signing bonus proration;$250,000 offseason workout) – gross cap savings in 2015 of $6,437,500, net cap savings of $5,852,500 since by June a player with a $585,000 salary would take his place in the Top 51. Please note that I am presuming that Mayo by rehabbing would qualify for earning his offseason workout bonus.
Mayo’s 2016 cap number would go from $10,087,500 to $2,400,000.
Mayo’s 2017 cap number would go from $9,187,500 to zero.
Current Deal Cut or Traded after June 1 Salary $6,250,000 46-man active Roster Bonus $187,500 2012 Option Bonus Proration $2,400,000 $2,400,000 2011 Signing Bonus Proration $1,200,000 $1,200,000 OffSeason Workout Bonus $250,000 $250,000 Totals $10,287,500 $3,850,000 2015 Gross Cap Savings $6,437,500
As I said from the start, imho Mayo either restructures or he is gone.
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Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
Old Smiley
Footballguy
Well, there goes Vince. A great Pat.
Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter 17m17 minutes ago
Big news from big contributor: RT @wilfork75: Morning guys ... Please read below this will be my only statement... http://fb.me/7bI3MB19Q
Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter 17m17 minutes ago
Big news from big contributor: RT @wilfork75: Morning guys ... Please read below this will be my only statement... http://fb.me/7bI3MB19Q
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bostonfred
Footballguy
Bummer.
Hu-Tang Clan
Footballguy
Old Smiley
Footballguy
Bill Simmons @BillSimmons 10m10 minutes ago
Best 12 Pats of my lifetime: Brady, Hannah, Tippett, Wilfork, Coates, Gronk, Haynes, Law, Morgan, McGinest, Armstrong, Vinatieri.
Best 12 Pats of my lifetime: Brady, Hannah, Tippett, Wilfork, Coates, Gronk, Haynes, Law, Morgan, McGinest, Armstrong, Vinatieri.
AngryPatriot
Footballguy
He could be back for less money. He's been great but I think there was a drop-off last year and what, maybe a year or 2 left in the tank for a 1st and 2nd down guy... This is not too surprising. I think losing Vereen would tough but that depends on who they pickup. Sign McCourty and Revis!!! Then move from there.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Vince, for as great as he was, just was not worth $9 million a season at this point. Letting him go will sane NE $7 million against the cap.
I don't see any way he returns, as he could have restructured and taken less to stick around. Once the Pats opt out and eat the related salary cap hit, or wouldn't make sense for either team to start over. Vince could have converted salary and roster bonuses to guarantees money to spread out the cap hit by staying. NE could have avoide a cap hit by keeping him. Both sides would lose in starting the negotiating process from scratch.
As we have seen the past few season, the going rate for ten year bets in their thirties on the DL has been about $4 million a year. Good luck and God bless to Vince. He was one of the Patriots greats. Just not $9 million great at this stage.
I don't see any way he returns, as he could have restructured and taken less to stick around. Once the Pats opt out and eat the related salary cap hit, or wouldn't make sense for either team to start over. Vince could have converted salary and roster bonuses to guarantees money to spread out the cap hit by staying. NE could have avoide a cap hit by keeping him. Both sides would lose in starting the negotiating process from scratch.
As we have seen the past few season, the going rate for ten year bets in their thirties on the DL has been about $4 million a year. Good luck and God bless to Vince. He was one of the Patriots greats. Just not $9 million great at this stage.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
I understand the move from the Patriots.Old Smiley said:
Touching and classy goodbye from Vince. He'll be missed.
Hu-Tang Clan
Footballguy
I hope Vince just hangs them up going out on top. I don't want to see him go sign with a crappy team to get another paycheque and just not look the same out there.
Isn't the salary cap hit minimal? I'm reading that it's less than $1M and they'll save just over $8M.
I would say it's likely, but it's entirely possible that he goes back if he finds a cool market for his services.
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Road Warriors
Footballguy
Looking at patscap.com it looks like the timing is critcal to the cap savings. He's due a roster bonus at the start of the league year. The cap number he's carrying 8.9m, and it looks like they save about 7m on the cap if they don't pay that.
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Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
nice call
wat gtfo
yeah, I don't see that happening, but i probably said the same thing before a lot of moves they made, so maybe I should ####