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Is it a jerk move to intentionally scratch in pool? (1 Viewer)

-fish- said:
you're playing by the wrong rules if you think you can gain advantage by scratching.
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Straight 8. You're opponent is down to the 8-ball and you have no shot. By scratching you are forcing them to have to make a bank shot on the 8 to win.

 
I played a lot in my 20s and got to be pretty good. I can't recall ever scratching intentionally or thinking that would ever be a strategic move. The goal is to sink the colored balls in the 6 pockets on the table, so scratching makes you lose opportunities to do that. Maybe you're playing a different game.

 
Playing under the rules you described (cue in the kitchen and not ball in hand) then it is a complete and utter p#### move to scratch on purpose.

 
Harry Manback said:
Eminence said:
-fish- said:
you're playing by the wrong rules if you think you can gain advantage by scratching.
Click to expand...
Straight 8. You're opponent is down to the 8-ball and you have no shot. By scratching you are forcing them to have to make a bank shot on the 8 to win.
Click to expand...
Then your opponent has ball in hand and can most certainly set up a shot other than a bank shot.
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I think he means that the 8 is in the kitchen and a scratch would mean the opponent has to hit it down the table and back for a legal shot.

Still a douchey move, though.

 
bigums said:
Harry Manback said:
Eminence said:
-fish- said:
you're playing by the wrong rules if you think you can gain advantage by scratching.
Click to expand...
Straight 8. You're opponent is down to the 8-ball and you have no shot. By scratching you are forcing them to have to make a bank shot on the 8 to win.
Click to expand...
Then your opponent has ball in hand and can most certainly set up a shot other than a bank shot.
Click to expand...
I think he means that the 8 is in the kitchen and a scratch would mean the opponent has to hit it down the table and back for a legal shot.

Still a douchey move, though.
Click to expand...
What rules are those?

 
if you play ball in kitchen after a scratch I would assume everybody knows this is a strategy that can be implemented by anybody playing at any point in the game....if you think you are going to miss, the goal at almost any point of the game is to miss and not leave your competition with much of a shot.....scratching is just another means of accomplishing this....unfortunately taking a shot with zero intention of actually making one of your own balls is a strategy that is used often.....if the intent is the same, some would argue whats the difference bewtween intentionally scratching, and intentionally leaving your opponent without a shot in some other way.....

I wouldn't do it though.....there is in most cases a way of accomplishing what you want to do without just hitting it straight into the pocket....

 
Since it's already been alluded to, learn how to play 8-ball by the real rules (i.e. cue ball in hand after a scratch).

 
DocHolliday said:
Winning is all that matters. Do whatever it takes.
Click to expand...
Without further details, this is the only answer. You play within the rules. If the rules say it's ball-in-hand, then I doubt scratching is ever the best move. In other situations, I could see it...but 99% of the time, if you're decent, you'd prefer to try and get the ball to the area you want, rather than lettng the opponent set it where he wants, no matter how restrictive that area may be.

I played a lot in bars/strip clubs in my mid 20's. I played really unconventional pool...I couldn't hit hard and straight to save my life...but I could hit soft and accurately, and was REALLY good at seeing and making angles and crazy sharp cut shots. So I'd tap-tap-tap my way to a win a lot. It used to infuriate the guys who come in for show when I'd beat them. They'd be drilling balls into the corners and hitting all sorts of English (with limited success), and I'd just tap in shots slow and accruate. I'd make the ones I thought I could make, and when I didn't have a shot, I'd put it somewhere defensive. There were many times where I'd go down, and just take easy shots but make sure I never left the guy anything to shoot at, and he'd get so frustrated that he'd miss when he did have a shot.

It might not be conventional, but if it's within the rules, it's legal, and IMO, not a jerk move.

 
Fat Nick said:
DocHolliday said:
Winning is all that matters. Do whatever it takes.
Click to expand...
Without further details, this is the only answer. You play within the rules. If the rules say it's ball-in-hand, then I doubt scratching is ever the best move. In other situations, I could see it...but 99% of the time, if you're decent, you'd prefer to try and get the ball to the area you want, rather than lettng the opponent set it where he wants, no matter how restrictive that area may be.

I played a lot in bars/strip clubs in my mid 20's. I played really unconventional pool...I couldn't hit hard and straight to save my life...but I could hit soft and accurately, and was REALLY good at seeing and making angles and crazy sharp cut shots. So I'd tap-tap-tap my way to a win a lot. It used to infuriate the guys who come in for show when I'd beat them. They'd be drilling balls into the corners and hitting all sorts of English (with limited success), and I'd just tap in shots slow and accruate. I'd make the ones I thought I could make, and when I didn't have a shot, I'd put it somewhere defensive. There were many times where I'd go down, and just take easy shots but make sure I never left the guy anything to shoot at, and he'd get so frustrated that he'd miss when he did have a shot.

It might not be conventional, but if it's within the rules, it's legal, and IMO, not a jerk move.
Click to expand...
BIG difference between a safety and intentional scratch, IMO.

Intentional scratch is a ##### move..... SHOULD be playing ball in hand, anyway. Someday maybe Em will take the training wheels off.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Fat Nick said:
DocHolliday said:
Winning is all that matters. Do whatever it takes.
Click to expand...
Without further details, this is the only answer. You play within the rules. If the rules say it's ball-in-hand, then I doubt scratching is ever the best move. In other situations, I could see it...but 99% of the time, if you're decent, you'd prefer to try and get the ball to the area you want, rather than lettng the opponent set it where he wants, no matter how restrictive that area may be.

I played a lot in bars/strip clubs in my mid 20's. I played really unconventional pool...I couldn't hit hard and straight to save my life...but I could hit soft and accurately, and was REALLY good at seeing and making angles and crazy sharp cut shots. So I'd tap-tap-tap my way to a win a lot. It used to infuriate the guys who come in for show when I'd beat them. They'd be drilling balls into the corners and hitting all sorts of English (with limited success), and I'd just tap in shots slow and accruate. I'd make the ones I thought I could make, and when I didn't have a shot, I'd put it somewhere defensive. There were many times where I'd go down, and just take easy shots but make sure I never left the guy anything to shoot at, and he'd get so frustrated that he'd miss when he did have a shot.

It might not be conventional, but if it's within the rules, it's legal, and IMO, not a jerk move.
Click to expand...
You had me at strip clubs.

 
Any player worth their stripes can make a better shot than a scratch in billiards. If you cannot, you are not yet good at billiards.

Having said that, wanna play a few games for cash?

 
[icon] said:
Fat Nick said:
DocHolliday said:
Winning is all that matters. Do whatever it takes.
Click to expand...
Without further details, this is the only answer. You play within the rules. If the rules say it's ball-in-hand, then I doubt scratching is ever the best move. In other situations, I could see it...but 99% of the time, if you're decent, you'd prefer to try and get the ball to the area you want, rather than lettng the opponent set it where he wants, no matter how restrictive that area may be.

I played a lot in bars/strip clubs in my mid 20's. I played really unconventional pool...I couldn't hit hard and straight to save my life...but I could hit soft and accurately, and was REALLY good at seeing and making angles and crazy sharp cut shots. So I'd tap-tap-tap my way to a win a lot. It used to infuriate the guys who come in for show when I'd beat them. They'd be drilling balls into the corners and hitting all sorts of English (with limited success), and I'd just tap in shots slow and accruate. I'd make the ones I thought I could make, and when I didn't have a shot, I'd put it somewhere defensive. There were many times where I'd go down, and just take easy shots but make sure I never left the guy anything to shoot at, and he'd get so frustrated that he'd miss when he did have a shot.

It might not be conventional, but if it's within the rules, it's legal, and IMO, not a jerk move.
Click to expand...
BIG difference between a safety and intentional scratch, IMO.

Intentional scratch is a ##### move..... SHOULD be playing ball in hand, anyway. Someday maybe Em will take the training wheels off.
Click to expand...
Don't disagree at all re. ball-in-hand. That's how I usually played, but the OP didn't specify. I'm sure that at some point I've played somewhere where it wasn't that way, and I've intentionally scratched when the his ball was behind the spot requiring a long bank. It's not illegal to do, and I'm playing by the rules to win.

Again, my take is that if it's within the rules, and I think the harder shot is from whatever the outcome is from scratching vs. playing a safety, then I'll scratch. If you don't like it, change the rules.

 
TheAristocrat said:
Any player worth their stripes can make a better shot than a scratch in billiards. If you cannot, you are not yet good at billiards.

Having said that, wanna play a few games for cash?
Click to expand...
Playing ball-in-hand, I agree...but if you're playing behind-the-line placement, it's not about skill,it's about the rule that you have to play to the other side of the line first. Even if you can leave the ball wherever you want, there is no rule after a normal safety shot that he has to play across a line.

Take this scenario with behind-the-line rules...8 ball is 1 inch from the corner pocket, behind the line. You've got 1 ball left, and it's hugging the rail on the opposite end. The cue is lined up with your ball, making a cut shot nearly impossible, and it's against the rail, making a bank back very very hard. What do you do? No matter where you place the ball with a safety, your opponent has a clear shot at the 8 ball. But...if you scratch, it goes to behind-the-line. The first play has to be in front of the line, so he has to bank all the way to the opposite rail before he can sink the 8. That's a much much harder shot.

 
Yes, jerk move, unmanly, also unsportsmanlike, also more fun for yourself if you try to nail a killer truck shot.

However snooker is different - anyone ecmver play that?

 
Stinkin Ref said:
if you play ball in kitchen after a scratch I would assume everybody knows this is a strategy that can be implemented by anybody playing at any point in the game....if you think you are going to miss, the goal at almost any point of the game is to miss and not leave your competition with much of a shot.....scratching is just another means of accomplishing this....unfortunately taking a shot with zero intention of actually making one of your own balls is a strategy that is used often.....if the intent is the same, some would argue whats the difference bewtween intentionally scratching, and intentionally leaving your opponent without a shot in some other way.....

I wouldn't do it though.....there is in most cases a way of accomplishing what you want to do without just hitting it straight into the pocket....
Click to expand...
:goodposting: You have at least one more ball on the table, or else you'd have just lost by scratching on the 8 yourself. So the shark move is to position the cue ball behind your ball (in relation to the 8) and make the opponent have to "kick at" the 8

 
Fat Nick said:
TheAristocrat said:
Any player worth their stripes can make a better shot than a scratch in billiards. If you cannot, you are not yet good at billiards.

Having said that, wanna play a few games for cash?
Click to expand...
Playing ball-in-hand, I agree...but if you're playing behind-the-line placement, it's not about skill,it's about the rule that you have to play to the other side of the line first. Even if you can leave the ball wherever you want, there is no rule after a normal safety shot that he has to play across a line.

Take this scenario with behind-the-line rules...8 ball is 1 inch from the corner pocket, behind the line. You've got 1 ball left, and it's hugging the rail on the opposite end. The cue is lined up with your ball, making a cut shot nearly impossible, and it's against the rail, making a bank back very very hard. What do you do? No matter where you place the ball with a safety, your opponent has a clear shot at the 8 ball. But...if you scratch, it goes to behind-the-line. The first play has to be in front of the line, so he has to bank all the way to the opposite rail before he can sink the 8. That's a much much harder shot.
Click to expand...
I would still make a play on my ball and attempt to place my ball between the cue and the 8 and tight to that same pocket. There are very, very few scenarios that I would even contemplate intentional scratches. There are just too many ways to play a ball off the rail to do something so silly.

Additionally, I have more tricky shots in my bag than most dudes. I grew up with a 10 foot table and played for money against some sketchy folks for decent cash when suspended from high school.

I still play for money occasionally when I can. Give me three hours on a ten foot table and I wouldn't be worried about playing against too many of you.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
TheAristocrat said:
Fat Nick said:
TheAristocrat said:
Any player worth their stripes can make a better shot than a scratch in billiards. If you cannot, you are not yet good at billiards.

Having said that, wanna play a few games for cash?
Click to expand...
Playing ball-in-hand, I agree...but if you're playing behind-the-line placement, it's not about skill,it's about the rule that you have to play to the other side of the line first. Even if you can leave the ball wherever you want, there is no rule after a normal safety shot that he has to play across a line.

Take this scenario with behind-the-line rules...8 ball is 1 inch from the corner pocket, behind the line. You've got 1 ball left, and it's hugging the rail on the opposite end. The cue is lined up with your ball, making a cut shot nearly impossible, and it's against the rail, making a bank back very very hard. What do you do? No matter where you place the ball with a safety, your opponent has a clear shot at the 8 ball. But...if you scratch, it goes to behind-the-line. The first play has to be in front of the line, so he has to bank all the way to the opposite rail before he can sink the 8. That's a much much harder shot.
Click to expand...
I would still make a play on my ball and attempt to place my ball between the cue and the 8 and tight to that same pocket. There are very, very few scenarios that I would even contemplate intentional scratches. There are just too many ways to play a ball off the rail to do something so silly.

Additionally, I have more tricky shots in my bag than most dudes. I grew up with a 10 foot table and played for money against some sketchy folks for decent cash when suspended from high school.

I still play for money occasionally when I can. Give me three hours on a ten foot table and I wouldn't be worried about playing against too many of you.
Click to expand...
Totally different game than the 6-7' bar tables. I used to own a bar table years ago, and got quite good. Unless someone got lucky, I could run the table for hours at the local bars. But I would be very average on 10 foot tables.

 
Intentionally scratching while making contact with one of your balls? Fair I guess.

Scratching while not making contact with one of you balls? Ball in hand.

I suck at pool unless I've had about 6 beers.

 
jwb said:
TheAristocrat said:
Fat Nick said:
TheAristocrat said:
Any player worth their stripes can make a better shot than a scratch in billiards. If you cannot, you are not yet good at billiards.

Having said that, wanna play a few games for cash?
Click to expand...
Playing ball-in-hand, I agree...but if you're playing behind-the-line placement, it's not about skill,it's about the rule that you have to play to the other side of the line first. Even if you can leave the ball wherever you want, there is no rule after a normal safety shot that he has to play across a line.

Take this scenario with behind-the-line rules...8 ball is 1 inch from the corner pocket, behind the line. You've got 1 ball left, and it's hugging the rail on the opposite end. The cue is lined up with your ball, making a cut shot nearly impossible, and it's against the rail, making a bank back very very hard. What do you do? No matter where you place the ball with a safety, your opponent has a clear shot at the 8 ball. But...if you scratch, it goes to behind-the-line. The first play has to be in front of the line, so he has to bank all the way to the opposite rail before he can sink the 8. That's a much much harder shot.
Click to expand...
I would still make a play on my ball and attempt to place my ball between the cue and the 8 and tight to that same pocket. There are very, very few scenarios that I would even contemplate intentional scratches. There are just too many ways to play a ball off the rail to do something so silly.

Additionally, I have more tricky shots in my bag than most dudes. I grew up with a 10 foot table and played for money against some sketchy folks for decent cash when suspended from high school.

I still play for money occasionally when I can. Give me three hours on a ten foot table and I wouldn't be worried about playing against too many of you.
Click to expand...
Totally different game than the 6-7' bar tables. I used to own a bar table years ago, and got quite good. Unless someone got lucky, I could run the table for hours at the local bars. But I would be very average on 10 foot tables.
Click to expand...
I absolutely love the feeling of playing on a ten foot for a few hours before playing bar pool. After the ten foot table, there are no long shots and I'm typically dialed in on placement (or "leaves"), banking, and breaks immediately. This is not to say I wouldn't lose at all, ever, but that I can play at a high enough level to not be worried about 95% of people and nearly 99% of bar patrons. Even with all of my balls left on the table and they only have the eight, I would still think I'd be right around 50-50 to win.

Man, I love this game. If it weren't amateur night, I would want to hit a bar pool game tonight.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Most leagues use Valley rules where you get ball in hand. I've never understood 8-ball period let alone behind the line after a scratch.

 
Kind of surprised at the level of passion the "ball in hand" vs "ball in kitchen" rule inspires.

 
Thorn said:
Kind of surprised at the level of passion the "ball in hand" vs "ball in kitchen" rule inspires.
Click to expand...
I think if you're playing a casual game, or against novice players, bar rules make sense. That includes ball-in-hand in the kitchen after scratches, and not penalizing for non-scratch fouls.

But in a competitive situation, or a game in which both players have a certain level of proficiency, true ball-in-hand after any foul makes more sense.

 
Jack White said:
Thorn said:
Kind of surprised at the level of passion the "ball in hand" vs "ball in kitchen" rule inspires.
Click to expand...
I think if you're playing a casual game, or against novice players, bar rules make sense. That includes ball-in-hand in the kitchen after scratches, and not penalizing for non-scratch fouls.

But in a competitive situation, or a game in which both players have a certain level of proficiency, true ball-in-hand after any foul makes more sense.
Click to expand...
Completely agree.

 
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