Is there a such thing as Clutch Ability? (1 Viewer)

[WhoDat]

If there is no such thing as having clutch ability, then why would you have flinched from time to time if and when Player A came up to the plate; got the ball for a shot; had the puck; was thrown the ball, etc. and you knew he was not the man for the job?

If there's no such thing as the Easter Bunny, why should kids get excited on Easter?Because someone believes a thing exists doesn't mean it exists. That's the point of the conversation. Does it really exist, or is it just a fabrication of selective memory?

And my point being that it is very much a real thing. Otherwise you do not get that oh, #### feeling when a certain player ends up with the ball in his hands at a critical point in the game.

 

[Liquid Tension]

How many people remember Brady's awful INT against the Dolphins on Monday Night? We often forget lots of things, so going just on memory is not going to work.

Here's an interesting stat. "Approximately fifty percent of those wrongly convicted were convicted based on eyewitness identification evidence....The "forgetting curve" describes the uneven rate at which information is forgotten, with a severe decline in recall occurring quickly, followed by a slower decline. Post-event information has been found to distort the memory, permanently altering it to conform with the post-event information received. One study found that the accuracy of an identification of students seen several times a week for ten weeks fell to sixty-nine percent after just two weeks, and to only forty-eight percent after one year. The ability to accurately identify a stranger with whom a witness had a single encounter lasting a brief period has been shown to be essentially nonexistent in less than one year."

When I hear "what are you talking about, of course XYZ is clutch", that paragraph above comes to mind. What we think we've seen and what we've seen are often too different things.

Maybe someone can answer this for me. I hear that Brady is clutch, but that he won't be clutch all the time. I hear that Manning is not clutch, but he won't be not clutch all the time.

Then in 10 playoff games, Manning has looked bad in 3, average in 4, and excellent in 3. In 11 playoff games, Brady has looked bad in 2, average in 5, and very good in 4.

Isn't it very likely that PlayoffBrady is the exact same as RegularBrady, and PlayoffPeyton is the exact same as RegularPeyton, but because of pretty small sample sizes, we're going to see results that are a bit off? Why isn't that more likely than Brady getting a 10% boost (or whatever number it is you like) and Manning taking a 10% hit in the playoffs?

If a coin went 6 heads out of 15, would you think the coin was an uneven coin?

there are some factors in line with what DJcolts is saying as well. Peyton may struggle against a Belichik team because a complex defense may throw him off more than a traditional game during the week. Maybe Peyton's style is actually way more productive than others against ordinary D's and he suffers about the same level against top D's? Who knows, but I am 100% sure that people have selective memory (as Chase points out) and if you like a player you overlook things and if you dislike a player you dwell on the negative and those thoughts become your reality.

 

[aposulli]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

 

[wannabee]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

There are some QBs I would not want for winning drive. Anyone want Brooks laughing in the huddle about an overthrow?

 

[Liquid Tension]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Nobody should be able to...Bt will THINK they can

 

[Lightning Fast Whip]

Regarding the Easter Bunny- Do the Kids REALLY get excited over the Easter Bunny or the Fact that the "Easter Bunny" PARENTS hid eggs and Candies out in the yard and they get to hunt and keep them. Parents act as the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus and RESULTS are the same. The fact it's the parents and not Easter Bunny,Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus does not change the result. If we were trying to specify what causes clutch ability and we got it wrong ala Easter Bunnyvs Parents it doesn't matter that we don't know the exact correct cause of it just that it does happen.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Least clutch

Norwood

Vanderjagt

Buckner .. oops wrong sport

.

.

.

Can I ask why Norwood was unclutch for missing a kick he NEVER completed in his entire career. I may have my facts wrong but if I am not mistaken he had never kicked a 45 (that is what it was right?) yard FG on grass/outside in his career. I will say this, he kicked that ball real well, he just shot it a little wide, he surely didn't choke as a choke would have been to hit a line drive and fall short.

 

[Liquid Tension]

If someone is "clutch" in that they perform better in key or important game situations, then why are they dogging it when it is not a "clutch" situation? Doesn't seem too professional to not be trying or performing your best at all times.

I'm dumbfounded as to why you do not beleive there is such a thing as "clutch"Clutch (adj.) cl-uch: The ability to maintain one's nerves in a situation of extreme pressure.

The fact is, and anyone who has been in any pressure packed game or situation can tell you, is that it's very common to get nervous. It really is no more complex than that IMO.

I believe some people for whatever reason just have the ability to "stay cool" and not to get nervous in these situations.

This attribute is evident in many athletes (Brady, Ortiz, today).

And I won't take it to the extreme and say you "either have it or you don't" (it's more of a sliding scale)...

but clealry this attribute is evident when you see guys like A-Rod constantly stirking out in pressure situations (save yesterday) and David Ortiz constantly coming through in tight games.

Not sure you have been paying attention? Take 6 random guys, in fact give them to me, 6 guys not already mentioned in baseball and I will look up their stats for you. Give me 3 guys you KNOW are clutch and 3 guys that aren't; I will do the HW on them.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd appreciate it if you left it to football, and maybe included some players besides guys who play(ed) in New England and Tiger Woods.If you can only name two football players with some particular trait, maybe such a trait doesn't exist.

And it's ironic that the second clutchest active football player on the planet once forgot how to kick field goals in the first half of the Super Bowl.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

There are some QBs I would not want for winning drive. Anyone want Brooks laughing in the huddle about an overthrow?

But if Aaron Brooks said "hey, that's Britney Spears" in the stands, and laughed, then they scored people would think he was super clutch.

 

[wannabee]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

There are some QBs I would not want for winning drive. Anyone want Brooks laughing in the huddle about an overthrow?

But if Aaron Brooks said "hey, that's Britney Spears" in the stands, and laughed, then they scored people would think he was super clutch.

ok. How many clutch drives has he succeeded on vs failed on? I will take the failed. You want the succeeded side?

 

[WhoDat]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Nobody should be able to...Bt will THINK they can

If the list could be limited to guys I played with or against, then I could give you a names. Speaking from my personal experiences as a football player and sometime coach, I could easily give you a list 10 deep of players I would or would not want on my side when it mattered most.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

There are some QBs I would not want for winning drive. Anyone want Brooks laughing in the huddle about an overthrow?

But if Aaron Brooks said "hey, that's Britney Spears" in the stands, and laughed, then they scored people would think he was super clutch.

ok. How many clutch drives has he succeeded on vs failed on? I will take the failed. You want the succeeded side?

I've got no idea how he's done, so this might be interesting. How would you like to determine "clutch"?

 

[aposulli]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd appreciate it if you left it to football, and maybe included some players besides guys who play(ed) in New England and Tiger Woods.If you can only name two football players with some particular trait, maybe such a trait doesn't exist.

And it's ironic that the second clutchest active football player on the planet once forgot how to kick field goals in the first half of the Super Bowl.

Forgive me, but I live in N.E.Anyway, howabout Joe Montana, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Leinart

On the flipside: Donovan McNabb, Peyton Manning

(QBs handle the most pressure with the ball in their hands, losing a close game with mins. left)

 

[radballs]

I have written a couple of replies but I cannot get past the following example. If you played competitive team sports, then this should make sense.

You are playing your favorite team sport. The end of the game is drawing near and you have one last chance to win. Enter Player A. You have intimate knowledge of Player A's character and ability both inside and outside the lines. Player A ends up with the ball and or puck. As a person; player and team mate, your initial reaction is either going to be :X or Based on what you know about Player A you will have an inner reaction that is either negative or positive.

Dollars to donuts most everyone reading and posting has encountered this for themselves at some point. If there is no such thing as having clutch ability, then why would you have flinched from time to time if and when Player A came up to the plate; got the ball for a shot; had the puck; was thrown the ball, etc. and you knew he was not the man for the job?

Maybe it's not that Player A is clutch, but that he is your team's best player and he presents the best statistical chance of succeeding. If he can't do it nobody can, but maybe it's because he's the best not the most "clutch".

 

[aposulli]

I have written a couple of replies but I cannot get past the following example.  If you played competitive team sports, then this should make sense.   

You are playing your favorite team sport.  The end of the game is drawing near and you have one last chance to win.  Enter Player A.  You have intimate knowledge of Player A's character and ability both inside and outside the lines.  Player A ends up with the ball and or puck.  As a person; player and team mate, your initial reaction is either going to be  :X or    Based on what you know about Player A you will have an inner reaction that is either negative or positive. 

Dollars to donuts most everyone reading and posting has encountered this for themselves at some point.  If there is no such thing as having clutch ability, then why would you have flinched from time to time if and when Player A came up to the plate; got the ball for a shot; had the puck; was thrown the ball, etc. and you knew he was not the man for the job?

Maybe it's not that Player A is clutch, but that he is your team's best player and he presents the best statistical chance of succeeding. If he can't do it nobody can, but maybe it's because he's the best not the most "clutch".

Correct. (that's just not a great explanation of "clutch")

 

[wannabee]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

There are some QBs I would not want for winning drive. Anyone want Brooks laughing in the huddle about an overthrow?

But if Aaron Brooks said "hey, that's Britney Spears" in the stands, and laughed, then they scored people would think he was super clutch.

ok. How many clutch drives has he succeeded on vs failed on? I will take the failed. You want the succeeded side?

I've got no idea how he's done, so this might be interesting. How would you like to determine "clutch"?

Drives for chance of game winning FG or TD. He is talented and has had talent around him, so that should not be an excuse.

 

[Spartans Rule]

I have written a couple of replies but I cannot get past the following example.  If you played competitive team sports, then this should make sense.   

You are playing your favorite team sport.  The end of the game is drawing near and you have one last chance to win.  Enter Player A.  You have intimate knowledge of Player A's character and ability both inside and outside the lines.  Player A ends up with the ball and or puck.  As a person; player and team mate, your initial reaction is either going to be  :X or    Based on what you know about Player A you will have an inner reaction that is either negative or positive. 

Dollars to donuts most everyone reading and posting has encountered this for themselves at some point.  If there is no such thing as having clutch ability, then why would you have flinched from time to time if and when Player A came up to the plate; got the ball for a shot; had the puck; was thrown the ball, etc. and you knew he was not the man for the job?

Maybe it's not that Player A is clutch, but that he is your team's best player and he presents the best statistical chance of succeeding. If he can't do it nobody can, but maybe it's because he's the best not the most "clutch".

That was my experience with sports. If the game was on the line, I wanted our best hitter at the plate. Not because he was "clutch", but because he was good.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

There are some QBs I would not want for winning drive. Anyone want Brooks laughing in the huddle about an overthrow?

But if Aaron Brooks said "hey, that's Britney Spears" in the stands, and laughed, then they scored people would think he was super clutch.

ok. How many clutch drives has he succeeded on vs failed on? I will take the failed. You want the succeeded side?

I've got no idea how he's done, so this might be interesting. How would you like to determine "clutch"?

Drives for chance of game winning FG or TD. He is talented and has had talent around him, so that should not be an excuse.

Ok. How would you define chance for game winning FG or TD?All drives with less than 5 minutes to go and his team down by 8 or less?

From 2002-2004, Brooks was 40-70, 496 yards, 23 First Downs, 4 TDs, 3 INTs; he also rushed 8 times for 54 yards and three first downs. That looks almost identical to his season numbers over those times.

In 2005, Brooks was pretty bad all year, and was without McAllister and Horn as well. I left those numbers out, although Brooks was pretty ugly then too. Of course, one might argue that there are no "clutch" moments in a 3-13 season.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd appreciate it if you left it to football, and maybe included some players besides guys who play(ed) in New England and Tiger Woods.If you can only name two football players with some particular trait, maybe such a trait doesn't exist.

And it's ironic that the second clutchest active football player on the planet once forgot how to kick field goals in the first half of the Super Bowl.

Forgive me, but I live in N.E.Anyway, howabout Joe Montana, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Leinart

On the flipside: Donovan McNabb, Peyton Manning

(QBs handle the most pressure with the ball in their hands, losing a close game with mins. left)

Joe Montana isn't active, and neither is Matt Leinart. The last time I saw Roethlisberger was in the biggest game of his career, when he happenned to have the worst game of his career. The second worst game of his career was in the second biggest pressure game of his career.I find it very ironic that you're using Big Ben as an example of a clutch player. I don't believe clutch players really exist, and I'm a huge Big Ben fan. But he's been horrible in the biggest spots, for sure.

 

[wannabee]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

There are some QBs I would not want for winning drive. Anyone want Brooks laughing in the huddle about an overthrow?

But if Aaron Brooks said "hey, that's Britney Spears" in the stands, and laughed, then they scored people would think he was super clutch.

ok. How many clutch drives has he succeeded on vs failed on? I will take the failed. You want the succeeded side?

I've got no idea how he's done, so this might be interesting. How would you like to determine "clutch"?

Drives for chance of game winning FG or TD. He is talented and has had talent around him, so that should not be an excuse.

Ok. How would you define chance for game winning FG or TD?All drives with less than 5 minutes to go and his team down by 8 or less?

From 2002-2004, Brooks was 40-70, 496 yards, 23 First Downs, 4 TDs, 3 INTs; he also rushed 8 times for 54 yards and three first downs. That looks almost identical to his season numbers over those times.

In 2005, Brooks was pretty bad all year, and was without McAllister and Horn as well. I left those numbers out, although Brooks was pretty ugly then too. Of course, one might argue that there are no "clutch" moments in a 3-13 season.

no. clutch for a QB has nothing to do with stats, but rather whether his team is successful in those situations. I do not want to penalize a QB audibilizing into a draw play to take advantage of the defense.

 

[aposulli]

If someone is "clutch" in that they perform better in key or important game situations, then why are they dogging it when it is not a "clutch" situation? Doesn't seem too professional to not be trying or performing your best at all times.

I'm dumbfounded as to why you do not beleive there is such a thing as "clutch"Clutch (adj.) cl-uch: The ability to maintain one's nerves in a situation of extreme pressure.

The fact is, and anyone who has been in any pressure packed game or situation can tell you, is that it's very common to get nervous. It really is no more complex than that IMO.

I believe some people for whatever reason just have the ability to "stay cool" and not to get nervous in these situations.

This attribute is evident in many athletes (Brady, Ortiz, today).

And I won't take it to the extreme and say you "either have it or you don't" (it's more of a sliding scale)...

but clealry this attribute is evident when you see guys like A-Rod constantly stirking out in pressure situations (save yesterday) and David Ortiz constantly coming through in tight games.

Just to expand on this....I think it would be silly to argue that pressure doesn't affect performance on the field.

The problem is, its nearly impossible to measure "clutch" ability unless you want to loosely base this attribute on success/failure rates alone. Which is fine, but in pressure packed situations, the line between success/failure may be ambiguous, and sample sizes are probably very small depending on how you define such a situation.

I'm willing to bet that if there were a way to measure pure performance as a continuous distibution, that MOST players' perf. would go down when pressure is higher. However there are players, i believe, who's performance may not decline in these situations

 

[Spartans Rule]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

There are some QBs I would not want for winning drive. Anyone want Brooks laughing in the huddle about an overthrow?

But if Aaron Brooks said "hey, that's Britney Spears" in the stands, and laughed, then they scored people would think he was super clutch.

ok. How many clutch drives has he succeeded on vs failed on? I will take the failed. You want the succeeded side?

I've got no idea how he's done, so this might be interesting. How would you like to determine "clutch"?

Drives for chance of game winning FG or TD. He is talented and has had talent around him, so that should not be an excuse.

Ok. How would you define chance for game winning FG or TD?All drives with less than 5 minutes to go and his team down by 8 or less?

From 2002-2004, Brooks was 40-70, 496 yards, 23 First Downs, 4 TDs, 3 INTs; he also rushed 8 times for 54 yards and three first downs. That looks almost identical to his season numbers over those times.

In 2005, Brooks was pretty bad all year, and was without McAllister and Horn as well. I left those numbers out, although Brooks was pretty ugly then too. Of course, one might argue that there are no "clutch" moments in a 3-13 season.

no. clutch for a QB has nothing to do with stats, but rather whether his team is successful in those situations. I do not want to penalize a QB audibilizing into a draw play to take advantage of the defense.

So if Aaron Brooks goes 9-for-9 for 87 yards, leading the Saints down to the 1, and hands off to Deuce who tries to dive over the line and fumbles the ball out the back of the end zone... that means Aaron Brooks isn't clutch?

 

[Lightning Fast Whip]

Don't we all remember the Guys or Girls from School (High School/College) that knew all the material, performed fine day to day in class but then couldn't answer the same types of questions on a Big Exam that they got right on their homework/quizes? Or couldn't get anywhere near the score you'd expect when they took a stressful important exam like the SAT. Some people just react differently when more is on the line. Do they not know what to do? Not really, they just can't do it when it matters most.

 

[aposulli]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

There are some QBs I would not want for winning drive. Anyone want Brooks laughing in the huddle about an overthrow?

But if Aaron Brooks said "hey, that's Britney Spears" in the stands, and laughed, then they scored people would think he was super clutch.

ok. How many clutch drives has he succeeded on vs failed on? I will take the failed. You want the succeeded side?

I've got no idea how he's done, so this might be interesting. How would you like to determine "clutch"?

Drives for chance of game winning FG or TD. He is talented and has had talent around him, so that should not be an excuse.

Ok. How would you define chance for game winning FG or TD?All drives with less than 5 minutes to go and his team down by 8 or less?

From 2002-2004, Brooks was 40-70, 496 yards, 23 First Downs, 4 TDs, 3 INTs; he also rushed 8 times for 54 yards and three first downs. That looks almost identical to his season numbers over those times.

In 2005, Brooks was pretty bad all year, and was without McAllister and Horn as well. I left those numbers out, although Brooks was pretty ugly then too. Of course, one might argue that there are no "clutch" moments in a 3-13 season.

no. clutch for a QB has nothing to do with stats, but rather whether his team is successful in those situations. I do not want to penalize a QB audibilizing into a draw play to take advantage of the defense.

So if Aaron Brooks goes 9-for-9 for 87 yards, leading the Saints down to the 1, and hands off to Deuce who tries to dive over the line and fumbles the ball out the back of the end zone... that means Aaron Brooks isn't clutch?

This is precicely what I was talking about when I said defining success/failure may be ambiguous

 

[Chase Stuart]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

There are some QBs I would not want for winning drive. Anyone want Brooks laughing in the huddle about an overthrow?

But if Aaron Brooks said "hey, that's Britney Spears" in the stands, and laughed, then they scored people would think he was super clutch.

ok. How many clutch drives has he succeeded on vs failed on? I will take the failed. You want the succeeded side?

I've got no idea how he's done, so this might be interesting. How would you like to determine "clutch"?

Drives for chance of game winning FG or TD. He is talented and has had talent around him, so that should not be an excuse.

Ok. How would you define chance for game winning FG or TD?All drives with less than 5 minutes to go and his team down by 8 or less?

From 2002-2004, Brooks was 40-70, 496 yards, 23 First Downs, 4 TDs, 3 INTs; he also rushed 8 times for 54 yards and three first downs. That looks almost identical to his season numbers over those times.

In 2005, Brooks was pretty bad all year, and was without McAllister and Horn as well. I left those numbers out, although Brooks was pretty ugly then too. Of course, one might argue that there are no "clutch" moments in a 3-13 season.

no. clutch for a QB has nothing to do with stats, but rather whether his team is successful in those situations. I do not want to penalize a QB audibilizing into a draw play to take advantage of the defense.

Ok. I said there's no such thing as clutch. You said Aaron Brooks wasn't clutch. I showed numbers demonstrating that Brooks in the clutch is the same as regular ol Brooks. You say it has to do with team success. It's your turn to present some evidence showing that Brooks is not clutch.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Don't we all remember the Guys or Girls from School (High School/College) that knew all the material, performed fine day to day in class but then couldn't answer the same types of questions on a Big Exam that they got right on their homework/quizes? Or couldn't get anywhere near the score you'd expect when they took a stressful important exam like the SAT. Some people just react differently when more is on the line. Do they not know what to do? Not really, they just can't do it when it matters most.

Yes. They probably aren't in the top .01% of test takers in the world.

 

[GregR_2]

So if Aaron Brooks goes 9-for-9 for 87 yards, leading the Saints down to the 1, and hands off to Deuce who tries to dive over the line and fumbles the ball out the back of the end zone... that means Aaron Brooks isn't clutch?

That seems to be the standard used for Manning, so why not.

 

[aposulli]

Don't we all remember the Guys or Girls from School (High School/College) that knew all the material, performed fine day to day in class but then couldn't answer the same types of questions on a Big Exam that they got right on their homework/quizes? Or couldn't get anywhere near the score you'd expect when they took a stressful important exam like the SAT. Some people just react differently when more is on the line. Do they not know what to do? Not really, they just can't do it when it matters most.

Yes. They probably aren't in the top .01% of test takers in the world.

Maybe you in fact, sir, are clutch, and that is why you don't believe there is such a thing.::serious::

As for the MOST of the rest of us, pressure sure does affect performance in all aspcets of life, football included.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Don't we all remember the Guys or Girls from School (High School/College) that knew all the material, performed fine day to day in class but then couldn't answer the same types of questions on a Big Exam that they got right on their homework/quizes? Or couldn't get anywhere near the score you'd expect when they took a stressful important exam like the SAT. Some people just react differently when more is on the line. Do they not know what to do? Not really, they just can't do it when it matters most.

Yes. They probably aren't in the top .01% of test takers in the world.

Maybe you in fact, sir, are clutch, and that is why you don't believe there is such a thing.::serious::

As for the MOST of the rest of us, pressure sure does affect performance in all aspcets of life, football included.

I've found that I'm not very clutch at things I'm bad at most of the time. Sometimes I get lucky and it feels really nice.I'm a lot more clutch though on things I'm good at. Sometimes I don't do well but I can just blow that off to bad luck.

Pressure may affect performance in all aspects of life, but there are 21 other guys on the playing field also being affected by the pressure. And these guys are in the top 0.01% of football players in the world.

 

[Lightning Fast Whip]

Don't we all remember the Guys or Girls from School (High School/College) that knew all the material, performed fine day to day in class but then couldn't answer the same types of questions on a Big Exam that they got right on their homework/quizes? Or couldn't get anywhere near the score you'd expect when they took a stressful important exam like the SAT. Some people just react differently when more is on the line. Do they not know what to do? Not really, they just can't do it when it matters most.

Yes. They probably aren't in the top .01% of test takers in the world.

And some who do very well in NFL regular season aren't in Top % of NFL Playoff TEST TAKERS. Maybe a player of Mannings ability is rarely under stress regular season because he is so good he just rattles off answers easily. But playoffs are different pressure.

 

[aposulli]

Don't we all remember the Guys or Girls from School (High School/College) that knew all the material, performed fine day to day in class but then couldn't answer the same types of questions on a Big Exam that they got right on their homework/quizes? Or couldn't get anywhere near the score you'd expect when they took a stressful important exam like the SAT. Some people just react differently when more is on the line. Do they not know what to do? Not really, they just can't do it when it matters most.

Yes. They probably aren't in the top .01% of test takers in the world.

Maybe you in fact, sir, are clutch, and that is why you don't believe there is such a thing.::serious::

As for the MOST of the rest of us, pressure sure does affect performance in all aspcets of life, football included.

I've found that I'm not very clutch at things I'm bad at most of the time. Sometimes I get lucky and it feels really nice.I'm a lot more clutch though on things I'm good at. Sometimes I don't do well but I can just blow that off to bad luck.

Pressure may affect performance in all aspects of life, but there are 21 other guys on the playing field also being affected by the pressure. And these guys are in the top 0.01% of football players in the world.

That's why I believe there aren't a ton of outliers in terms of "clutchness".

 

[GregR_2]

I think most of the examples support drama being a bigger factor in what is clutch and what isn't, than any kind of definable standard. Take the TB game where the Colts came back. It's been mentioned as an example of a line of thinking like "When I saw that, I thought maybe Peyton had turned a corner."

It was a MNF, but Peyton has done great in plenty of those so why would his performance in this one be any more or less than those others? So what made it clutch? The fact it was a rare, exciting comeback. It was drama, not the game itself.

Was Kurt Warner driving the field in the SB to tie the game any less clutch than Tom Brady? I've yet to hear anyone mention it in any of these sorts of discussions about that game. If the Rams don't score on that drive they probably don't have a realistic shot at scoring again and will lose. What makes the final drive more clutch than the drive that kept the game close, other than the drama of it?

 

[Liquid Tension]

I think "clutch" is more people getting caught up in drama than it is something real. There are some people who handle pressure better than others, and even at the NFL level there are some guys who have slight advantages. I mean face, if talent were equal it no one would choose a guy with Aaaron Brooks' demeanor over a guy with Elway's demeanor. No one would choose a Philip Buchanon over a Ray Lewis.

But that's a small part in what goes on. I mean, take Brady's drive in the Pats first Super Bowl. Pats have been stagnant on offense all day. Something like 2 or 3 for 11 on third down completions. 1 scoring drive that can be attributed to the offense, while the other 10 points came primarily from the defense (INT for a TD and a turnover that gave the O the ball practically in FG range IIRC).

Ok, so what factors are most likely to play the largest role in the Pats final drive? That Brady suddenly becomes more accurate and makes better decisions when under more pressure? Or that the Rams dropped into prevent defense, allowing things like the 3 straight dump offs to RBs that let them move the ball? Or that Tom Brady is a very good QB and the last drive is the first one the handcuffs came off and he was allowed to play at his normal, non-clutch level?

I think a reasonable person who is not caught up in the drama of that game would have a hard time saying "Brady's game elevates" is more responsible for it than "Brady is normally very good" and "it was a prevent defense".

Speaking of which, I think it's an insult to Brady when people try to use that SB and the clutch argument. Frankly it was a poor game for a QB overall. The playoff loss to Denver showed a dozen times better Brady's skill as a QB than did the SB win. But a lot of people will focus on the 1 drive in the SB and the big INT to Bailey in the loss and judge everything on that, because that's where the drama lay. But watching the game, Denver had some of the most ferocious blitzing I can recall seeing in a long time. I was expecting time and again to see him flattened, but he seemed to continually read the 7 and 8 man blitzes and get the ball off in time, and actually make completions and move the chains.

Watching that game gave me more of an appreciation for Brady's QB skills. I knew he was very good at eluding the rush even if he isn't "fast", but he really showed a whole new level to me out there in that game. I think I'd even give him the edge over Peyton now as best QB in the NFL, because of that game and because at the same time Peyton was facing similar pressure against the Steelers and had more trouble handling it.

I apologize for not responding to this earlier as it was a very good post. Maybe my contrarian mind (and possibly yours) has us trying to prove that a guy in a loss could play better than ever because it is too easy to say the guy won had a good game gets us going here Regardless, you painted a picture that I think has a lot to do with what happens to QB's. When ANY QB is under constant pressure they make mistakes. This happened to Brady even though he played very well up to that point. Most QB's can throw a ball to a spot at 30 yards when they can take a 5-7 step drop step up in the pocket and then throw without the learned memory of having to hurry because you have been hit 10 times already and sacked 3 times. Being able to take hits and keep coming back is what is really impressive. Ken Stabler was not that impressive to me because he read the paper waiting for his guys to get open; I never saw a QB stand flatfooted for 3 seconds every time he dropped back to pass.

Getting back to clutch play, I wonder if Manning having to play scrimmages against weaker defenses (his own) and then getting out there against the best D's makes it harder? I wonder if Brady only faces defenses like the Colts and Broncos it makes it easier? When he played Pitt we saw what happened. Can you imagine if that was Manning who threw that pick? He would be crucified.

 

[Lightning Fast Whip]

I think most of the examples support drama being a bigger factor in what is clutch and what isn't, than any kind of definable standard. Take the TB game where the Colts came back. It's been mentioned as an example of a line of thinking like "When I saw that, I thought maybe Peyton had turned a corner."

It was a MNF, but Peyton has done great in plenty of those so why would his performance in this one be any more or less than those others? So what made it clutch? The fact it was a rare, exciting comeback. It was drama, not the game itself.

Was Kurt Warner driving the field in the SB to tie the game any less clutch than Tom Brady? I've yet to hear anyone mention it in any of these sorts of discussions about that game. If the Rams don't score on that drive they probably don't have a realistic shot at scoring again and will lose. What makes the final drive more clutch than the drive that kept the game close, other than the drama of it?

I thought it was his most impressive performance up to that point of his career because1) It was Tampas Defense. This was NOT an average defense to make a comeback against with them knowing you'd be throwing. This was a perennial Top Defense especially vs Pass who had just come off a Superbowl win (Team imploded after this game but at the time Tampa looked like a good team with Great Def..Maybe this comeback accelerated their demise sort of like what St Louis comeback did in harming/stunting Seattles 2004 season)

2) It was a big comeback...multiple scores needed.

3) The defense as well as his offense appeared excited and looked like they believed Peyton and the Offense could pull it off even before they'd got within 8 points. Confidence of your teammates and belief in you from them helps the whole team raise it's game...even in future games. Coaches stress getting a team to buy in to what they are telling them...buying into your QB (even when losing badly) is as important as buying into your coaches.

4) Touchy/Feely kind of thing but I saw a new level of confidence in that game (vs a tough defense no less) I hadn't seen from Peyton up until that game in 2003.

A swagger in that second half that told me as a fan he was going to get it done. If he hadn't I'd have been surprised the way he was carrying himself and directing the offense. He had full control of that situation...and it was a difficult one against a tough defense. I know these aren't quantifiable things...but to me they were things I hadn't seen enough of out of Peyton to consider him among the Great QBs (beyond statistically) until that game.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Don't we all remember the Guys or Girls from School (High School/College) that knew all the material, performed fine day to day in class but then couldn't answer the same types of questions on a Big Exam that they got right on their homework/quizes? Or couldn't get anywhere near the score you'd expect when they took a stressful important exam like the SAT. Some people just react differently when more is on the line. Do they not know what to do? Not really, they just can't do it when it matters most.

As mentioned prior, these are world class athletes folks, not your high school team

 

[Liquid Tension]

Can someone give me a list of the top 10 clutchest active players, and the 10 top least clutch players?

Without limiting ti to football....Most clutch in today's game

1) David Ortiz

2) Tom Brady

3) Tiger Woods (maybe the only guy in the game of golf who does not beleive in pressure)

4) Adam Vinatieri

5) Ben Gordon

I'd imagine there are NASCAR/IRL drivers, as well as bowlers who belong on this list, but I do not know them

Least clutch is way too tough to say, but there are guys I remember being so nervous in certain situations, they develop mental blocks (i.e. Chuck Knoblach, Rick Ankiel)

There are some QBs I would not want for winning drive. Anyone want Brooks laughing in the huddle about an overthrow?

But if Aaron Brooks said "hey, that's Britney Spears" in the stands, and laughed, then they scored people would think he was super clutch.

ok. How many clutch drives has he succeeded on vs failed on? I will take the failed. You want the succeeded side?

I've got no idea how he's done, so this might be interesting. How would you like to determine "clutch"?

Drives for chance of game winning FG or TD. He is talented and has had talent around him, so that should not be an excuse.

Yeah, but being clutch would tell you that he performs better in these situations rather than "normal" circumstances. However, THERE IS ONE HUGE PROBLEM WITH THIS THINKING. Whenever a team has a chance to go down and score a tying or winning FG or even a TD late in the game, the chances of doing it become 33% higher. therefore you should expect a better outcome. this is why there are so many late drives after not moving the ball earlier in the game. Some is the stupid use of the prevent defense, but having an extra down is HUGE.

 

[Lightning Fast Whip]

Don't we all remember the Guys or Girls from School (High School/College) that knew all the material, performed fine day to day in class but then couldn't answer the same types of questions on a Big Exam that they got right on their homework/quizes? Or couldn't get anywhere near the score you'd expect when they took a stressful important exam like the SAT. Some people just react differently when more is on the line. Do they not know what to do? Not really, they just can't do it when it matters most.

As mentioned prior, these are world class athletes folks, not your high school team

Yep, But they are still human beings. They aren't robots or perfected in every way. They still have strengths and weaknesses. Not all of them are in Top .01% Mentally just because they are in Top .01% Athletically. And for a QB the mental part of the game becomes more important as they reach higher levels of competition. Why would some QBs be great for College and not even capable of being in NFL? Their level of Athletic talent could be so high they don't need to be the sharpest mentally? Because it's a Higher Level even than an Ohio State,Michigan,USC,Florida. Is not the Playoffs a higher lever than Regular season? Smaller Jump but the competition is higher in Playoffs with more on the line so increase in level of competition and pressure of a loss is increased as well. Teams do bother trying to test some mental things with Wonderlic and interviews and expect more out of QBs than other positions. If they had ways to separate how Ryan Leaf reacts to Pressure vs How Joe Montana reacts to it they would certainly run the test. And they'd do it regardless of whether both Montana and Leaf both qualified to be in .01% of guys who are/going to be in NFL

 

[Gandalf]

I can't offer any evidence except David Ortiz. But I believe in his clutchness. I think there is such a thing as clutch ability for some people. But it is probably so rare that it is impossible to prove statistically.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I think most of the examples support drama being a bigger factor in what is clutch and what isn't, than any kind of definable standard. Take the TB game where the Colts came back. It's been mentioned as an example of a line of thinking like "When I saw that, I thought maybe Peyton had turned a corner."

It was a MNF, but Peyton has done great in plenty of those so why would his performance in this one be any more or less than those others? So what made it clutch? The fact it was a rare, exciting comeback. It was drama, not the game itself.

Was Kurt Warner driving the field in the SB to tie the game any less clutch than Tom Brady? I've yet to hear anyone mention it in any of these sorts of discussions about that game. If the Rams don't score on that drive they probably don't have a realistic shot at scoring again and will lose. What makes the final drive more clutch than the drive that kept the game close, other than the drama of it?

I thought it was his most impressive performance up to that point of his career because1) It was Tampas Defense. This was NOT an average defense to make a comeback against with them knowing you'd be throwing. This was a perennial Top Defense especially vs Pass who had just come off a Superbowl win (Team imploded after this game but at the time Tampa looked like a good team with Great Def..Maybe this comeback accelerated their demise sort of like what St Louis comeback did in harming/stunting Seattles 2004 season)

2) It was a big comeback...multiple scores needed.

3) The defense as well as his offense appeared excited and looked like they believed Peyton and the Offense could pull it off even before they'd got within 8 points. Confidence of your teammates and belief in you from them helps the whole team raise it's game...even in future games. Coaches stress getting a team to buy in to what they are telling them...buying into your QB (even when losing badly) is as important as buying into your coaches.

4) Touchy/Feely kind of thing but I saw a new level of confidence in that game (vs a tough defense no less) I hadn't seen from Peyton up until that game in 2003.

A swagger in that second half that told me as a fan he was going to get it done. If he hadn't I'd have been surprised the way he was carrying himself and directing the offense. He had full control of that situation...and it was a difficult one against a tough defense. I know these aren't quantifiable things...but to me they were things I hadn't seen enough of out of Peyton to consider him among the Great QBs (beyond statistically) until that game.

If that's your criteria, you must have been floored watching Testaverde against the Dolphins on MNF. Now that was a tremendous performance. But since it's Testaverde, of course, it's not really worth remembering. I can only imagine what would have happened if Tom Brady did the identical thing. This board would probably explode.

 

[aposulli]

I think most of the examples support drama being a bigger factor in what is clutch and what isn't, than any kind of definable standard.  Take the TB game where the Colts came back.  It's been mentioned as an example of a line of thinking like "When I saw that, I thought maybe Peyton had turned a corner."

It was a MNF, but Peyton has done great in plenty of those so why would his performance in this one be any more or less than those others?  So what made it clutch?  The fact it was a rare, exciting comeback.  It was drama, not the game itself.

Was Kurt Warner driving the field in the SB to tie the game any less clutch than Tom Brady?  I've yet to hear anyone mention it in any of these sorts of discussions about that game.  If the Rams don't score on that drive they probably don't have a realistic shot at scoring again and will lose.  What makes the final drive more clutch than the drive that kept the game close, other than the drama of it?

I thought it was his most impressive performance up to that point of his career because1) It was Tampas Defense. This was NOT an average defense to make a comeback against with them knowing you'd be throwing. This was a perennial Top Defense especially vs Pass who had just come off a Superbowl win (Team imploded after this game but at the time Tampa looked like a good team with Great Def..Maybe this comeback accelerated their demise sort of like what St Louis comeback did in harming/stunting Seattles 2004 season)

2) It was a big comeback...multiple scores needed.

3) The defense as well as his offense appeared excited and looked like they believed Peyton and the Offense could pull it off even before they'd got within 8 points. Confidence of your teammates and belief in you from them helps the whole team raise it's game...even in future games. Coaches stress getting a team to buy in to what they are telling them...buying into your QB (even when losing badly) is as important as buying into your coaches.

4) Touchy/Feely kind of thing but I saw a new level of confidence in that game (vs a tough defense no less) I hadn't seen from Peyton up until that game in 2003.

A swagger in that second half that told me as a fan he was going to get it done. If he hadn't I'd have been surprised the way he was carrying himself and directing the offense. He had full control of that situation...and it was a difficult one against a tough defense. I know these aren't quantifiable things...but to me they were things I hadn't seen enough of out of Peyton to consider him among the Great QBs (beyond statistically) until that game.

If that's your criteria, you must have been floored watching Testaverde against the Dolphins on MNF. Now that was a tremendous performance. But since it's Testaverde, of course, it's not really worth remembering. I can only imagine what would have happened if Tom Brady did the identical thing. This board would probably explode.

pet peeve: Tom Brady?

 

[Lightning Fast Whip]

I think most of the examples support drama being a bigger factor in what is clutch and what isn't, than any kind of definable standard.   Take the TB game where the Colts came back.  It's been mentioned as an example of a line of thinking like "When I saw that, I thought maybe Peyton had turned a corner."

It was a MNF, but Peyton has done great in plenty of those so why would his performance in this one be any more or less than those others?  So what made it clutch?  The fact it was a rare, exciting comeback.  It was drama, not the game itself.

Was Kurt Warner driving the field in the SB to tie the game any less clutch than Tom Brady?   I've yet to hear anyone mention it in any of these sorts of discussions about that game.  If the Rams don't score on that drive they probably don't have a realistic shot at scoring again and will lose.   What makes the final drive more clutch than the drive that kept the game close, other than the drama of it?

I thought it was his most impressive performance up to that point of his career because1) It was Tampas Defense. This was NOT an average defense to make a comeback against with them knowing you'd be throwing. This was a perennial Top Defense especially vs Pass who had just come off a Superbowl win (Team imploded after this game but at the time Tampa looked like a good team with Great Def..Maybe this comeback accelerated their demise sort of like what St Louis comeback did in harming/stunting Seattles 2004 season)

2) It was a big comeback...multiple scores needed.

3) The defense as well as his offense appeared excited and looked like they believed Peyton and the Offense could pull it off even before they'd got within 8 points. Confidence of your teammates and belief in you from them helps the whole team raise it's game...even in future games. Coaches stress getting a team to buy in to what they are telling them...buying into your QB (even when losing badly) is as important as buying into your coaches.

4) Touchy/Feely kind of thing but I saw a new level of confidence in that game (vs a tough defense no less) I hadn't seen from Peyton up until that game in 2003.

A swagger in that second half that told me as a fan he was going to get it done. If he hadn't I'd have been surprised the way he was carrying himself and directing the offense. He had full control of that situation...and it was a difficult one against a tough defense. I know these aren't quantifiable things...but to me they were things I hadn't seen enough of out of Peyton to consider him among the Great QBs (beyond statistically) until that game.

If that's your criteria, you must have been floored watching Testaverde against the Dolphins on MNF. Now that was a tremendous performance. But since it's Testaverde, of course, it's not really worth remembering. I can only imagine what would have happened if Tom Brady did the identical thing. This board would probably explode.

You seem like you like taking things to extremes...things happen within contextes- Testaverdes was a nice game. But he'd been playing what...over 10 years already. I wasn't thinking about him among the very best QBs. A good one with a good comeback win. Rank it somewhere in importance to deciding on Top QBs between Peytons Tampa comeback which was a signal/Flag that made me think he might/could join the elite soon in more than just Stats...and Frank Reichs Comeback vs Houston. I wasn't going to suddenly think Reichs made him a possibility to become a great QB just Like Testaverdes didn't raise him to debate of great QBs. They both got a bump imo in their status..but they were too far away to think they were now possibly in the running. For Peyton his work and age in 2003 were enough to think a great game might be a sign of something great in near future. For Peyton he has been better since 2003 even in discussion of the Great ones but still not the best imo. For Testaverde he should get some respect for what he did late in his career..but he was never among the Top QBs and was far enough away it never really came down to any moment that could have changed it imo. Reich even further away...but Holding both the NCAA and NFL Playoff records for largest comebacks is a feather in his hat and I suppose I'd give him a bump when comparing him to all time backup QBs because of it.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I think most of the examples support drama being a bigger factor in what is clutch and what isn't, than any kind of definable standard. Take the TB game where the Colts came back. It's been mentioned as an example of a line of thinking like "When I saw that, I thought maybe Peyton had turned a corner."

It was a MNF, but Peyton has done great in plenty of those so why would his performance in this one be any more or less than those others? So what made it clutch? The fact it was a rare, exciting comeback. It was drama, not the game itself.

Was Kurt Warner driving the field in the SB to tie the game any less clutch than Tom Brady? I've yet to hear anyone mention it in any of these sorts of discussions about that game. If the Rams don't score on that drive they probably don't have a realistic shot at scoring again and will lose. What makes the final drive more clutch than the drive that kept the game close, other than the drama of it?

I thought it was his most impressive performance up to that point of his career because1) It was Tampas Defense. This was NOT an average defense to make a comeback against with them knowing you'd be throwing. This was a perennial Top Defense especially vs Pass who had just come off a Superbowl win (Team imploded after this game but at the time Tampa looked like a good team with Great Def..Maybe this comeback accelerated their demise sort of like what St Louis comeback did in harming/stunting Seattles 2004 season)

2) It was a big comeback...multiple scores needed.

3) The defense as well as his offense appeared excited and looked like they believed Peyton and the Offense could pull it off even before they'd got within 8 points. Confidence of your teammates and belief in you from them helps the whole team raise it's game...even in future games. Coaches stress getting a team to buy in to what they are telling them...buying into your QB (even when losing badly) is as important as buying into your coaches.

4) Touchy/Feely kind of thing but I saw a new level of confidence in that game (vs a tough defense no less) I hadn't seen from Peyton up until that game in 2003.

A swagger in that second half that told me as a fan he was going to get it done. If he hadn't I'd have been surprised the way he was carrying himself and directing the offense. He had full control of that situation...and it was a difficult one against a tough defense. I know these aren't quantifiable things...but to me they were things I hadn't seen enough of out of Peyton to consider him among the Great QBs (beyond statistically) until that game.

If that's your criteria, you must have been floored watching Testaverde against the Dolphins on MNF. Now that was a tremendous performance. But since it's Testaverde, of course, it's not really worth remembering. I can only imagine what would have happened if Tom Brady did the identical thing. This board would probably explode.

You seem like you like taking things to extremes

Quite the contrary. I'm not the one claiming that Brady has this supernatural power that he turns on sometimes that maybe one other player in the NFL has (Vinatieri); or that Manning has this odd kyrptonite that no other player has that seems to come around at inopportune times.

 

[Liquid Tension]

That's why I believe there aren't a ton of outliers in terms of "clutchness".

Guys, this is why I used baseball to demonstrate my point. Because, at the most, the QB is 12% of your team, it is hard to pin point whether he was clutch or the team or another player or what. In baseball it is much easier because it is an individual sport and the individual performances make up the team outcome. It has been shown over and over that if you can find the rare (1%) of players where being clutch shows a statistical level of validity then you have to come to the conclusion that this player is very rare. So for every David Ortiz, there are 99 other players who show difference in their ability to elevate or choke. My conclusion is that while there are clearly clutch performances they are a bad predictor of future performance and therefore clutch ability either doesn't exist, or if it does exist it is not very significant at all. Remember, this is coming from a person who was on the other extreme before being enlightened.So with that conclusion do we think that football players are different than baseball players? I don't, therefore the conclusion is the same for football players.

 

[Lightning Fast Whip]

Claiming there is no such thing as differences in how NFL players respond to critical or crucial situations seems an extreme position. Claiming there are still differences in how players respond to these situations/pressures despite them reaching the NFL seems less extreme to me then they all are immune to pressure if they made an NFL Roster.

That a difference in Mental Makeup exists between even NFL QBs that effects how they respond under pressure does not seem like a big leap. Denying it's existance seems like a huge leap

...does a starting NFL QB gets some immunity shot...so they all are vaccinated against pressure and differing ways people respond to it?

 

[Chase Stuart]

Claiming there is no such thing as differences in how NFL players respond to critical or crucial situations seems an extreme position. Claiming there are still differences in how players respond to these situations/pressures despite them reaching the NFL seems less extreme to me then they all are immune to pressure if they made an NFL Roster.

That a difference in Mental Makeup exists between even NFL QBs that effects how they respond under pressure does not seem like a big leap. Denying it's existance seems like a huge leap

...does a starting NFL QB gets some immunity shot...so they all are vaccinated against pressure and differing ways people respond to it?

Maybe I'm not making it clear, but I think there's quite a bit of pressure on the QB every week. If QBs were under tremendous pressure in the playoffs, wouldn't league-wide scoring and passing numbers in the playoffs generally be lower (after accounting for SOS) than during the regular season?

 

[CalBear]

And it's ironic that the second clutchest active football player on the planet once forgot how to kick field goals in the first half of the Super Bowl.

And also missed one in the fourth quarter of a playoff game in 2005.

 

[Lightning Fast Whip]

Claiming there is no such thing as differences in how NFL players respond to critical or crucial situations seems an extreme position. Claiming there are still differences in how players respond to these situations/pressures despite them reaching the NFL seems less extreme to me then they all are immune to pressure if they made an NFL Roster.

That a difference in Mental Makeup exists between even NFL QBs that effects how they respond under pressure does not seem like a big leap. Denying it's existance seems like a huge leap

...does a starting NFL QB gets some immunity shot...so they all are vaccinated against pressure and differing ways people respond to it?

Maybe I'm not making it clear, but I think there's quite a bit of pressure on the QB every week. If QBs were under tremendous pressure in the playoffs, wouldn't league-wide scoring and passing numbers in the playoffs generally be lower (after accounting for SOS) than during the regular season?

One thing I've posted about- that is for a guy like Peyton I believe he has a high confidence level in what he can accomplish during a regular season already. Thus he has even less pressure on him during the regular season than an average QB. He just plays his game with minimal pressure...he knows he and his team is/are better than his opponents most weeks and they'll be in the playoffs.But in the Playoffs he does run into a number of kinds of pressure from one loss and out, better defenses, differing schemes 3-4, his own reputation in playoffs ..being an extra monkey on his back, to his own doubts which being 3-6 in playoffs can't help his confidence, to fan expectations when they have a great regular season and have been told they have the best QB in the league and they expect him to play like it no matter the opponent.

 

[ookook]

There is surely a trait related to performance under pressure...let us call it "stress tolerance" for simplicity. Some people will tend to do worse, some about the same, and some even better when there is evaluative pressure. That is why it is an individual difference and it is observed in the academic and employment arenas just as much as sports.

But there are some things in the NFL that have been mentioned that decrease the relevance (or relationship to success in "clutch situations").

First, there is range restriction. If you were not fairly tolerant of stres you woul dnot get there. This means differences in this context will be harder to observe...but not that they are not there. However, it also means they may matter less.

Second, the situations being compared (normal NFL playing and game-breakers) are actually somewhat similar on the extent they are stressful. That is, it is not like we are comparing non-stressful to very stressful. We are comparing very stressful to very very stressful. This also makes differences hard to observe.

Third, the judgments made by fans are pretty biased and full of self-fulfilling prophesy and selective processing.

With all of that said, I have started to wonder about McNabb a bit...but not Manning.

I could care less about Brady as I do not consider him a top QB

 

[Chase Stuart]

Claiming there is no such thing as differences in how NFL players respond to critical or crucial situations seems an extreme position. Claiming there are still differences in how players respond to these situations/pressures despite them reaching the NFL seems less extreme to me then they all are immune to pressure if they made an NFL Roster.

That a difference in Mental Makeup exists between even NFL QBs that effects how they respond under pressure does not seem like a big leap. Denying it's existance seems like a huge leap

...does a starting NFL QB gets some immunity shot...so they all are vaccinated against pressure and differing ways people respond to it?

Maybe I'm not making it clear, but I think there's quite a bit of pressure on the QB every week. If QBs were under tremendous pressure in the playoffs, wouldn't league-wide scoring and passing numbers in the playoffs generally be lower (after accounting for SOS) than during the regular season?

One thing I've posted about- that is for a guy like Peyton I believe he has a high confidence level in what he can accomplish during a regular season already. Thus he has even less pressure on him during the regular season than an average QB. He just plays his game with minimal pressure...he knows he and his team is/are better than his opponents most weeks and they'll be in the playoffs.But in the Playoffs he does run into a number of kinds of pressure from one loss and out, better defenses, differing schemes 3-4, his own reputation in playoffs ..being an extra monkey on his back, to his own doubts which being 3-6 in playoffs can't help his confidence, to fan expectations when they have a great regular season and have been told they have the best QB in the league and they expect him to play like it no matter the opponent.

This sounds well and good, but look at guys like Duncan, Wade, Nowitzki and LeBron in the NBA playoffs this year. Or any number of SPs with great performances in recent playoff history.Perhaps more than ever, Manning this year didn't have a lot of pressure on his back, because he had a great all around team. There's more pressure and you "try to do too much" when you need a superhuman performance to win.

The Colts lost this year not because Manning is sux0r, or because he choked in the playoffs. They lost because these things happen, and they played an excellent team. Losing to the SB champs is hardly embarrassing. If they played that game 7 times, Indy would probably have won 4 of those games. But losing any one of them, especially a close game, doesn't mean Manning or the Colts couldn't live up to the playoff hype.

No team can be expected to win the Super Bowl in any given season, even after making the playoffs. They have at least three games to win; and I don't think any team in recent history is 80% likely to win every playoff game. So on average, even the best team won't win the Super Bowl more often than not.

I'd have given the Colts a 55% chance of winning that game, so losing it doesn't really mean too much. And in case you think this is all revisionist history, check here.