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Is Tom Brady a top 5 QB all-time? (1 Viewer)

yes/ no

  • Yes

    Votes: 91 75.8%

  • No

    Votes: 27 22.5%

  • Other

    Votes: 2 1.7%
  • Total voters
    120
If you can read the ESPN story from last September and still feel like Brady/Belichick's accomplishments aren't tarnished then you truly are a homer

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart

This article absolutely destroys every argument and vindicates all of the accusers who were shouted down over the last 10 years.  We still don't know the whole truth, the NFL was complicit in destroying evidence and covering it up.  Those are facts.

Statistically is Brady top 5? Of course.  Top 3 at least, HOF first ballot, the whole deal.  But he is a cheater and so is his coach.  All these false equivalencies to salary cap misuse and stick 'em are ridiculous.  The Pats have an astounding organization-wide legacy of cheating that continues to this day.  The NFL has done everything they could to keep pushing it under the rug because it hurts the brand and calls into question at least 3 Super Bowl championships (all won by 3 points by the way).

This should be just as big, if not bigger, than Barry Bonds. 

 
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lombardi said:
If you can read the ESPN story from last September and still feel like Brady/Belichick's accomplishments aren't tarnished then you truly are a homer

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart

This article absolutely destroys every argument and vindicates all of the accusers who were shouted down over the last 10 years.  We still don't know the whole truth, the NFL was complicit in destroying evidence and covering it up.  Those are facts.

Statistically is Brady top 5? Of course.  Top 3 at least, HOF first ballot, the whole deal.  But he is a cheater and so is his coach.  All these false equivalencies to salary cap misuse and stick 'em are ridiculous.  The Pats have an astounding organization-wide legacy of cheating that continues to this day.  The NFL has done everything they could to keep pushing it under the rug because it hurts the brand and calls into question at least 3 Super Bowl championships (all won by 3 points by the way).

This should be just as big, if not bigger, than Barry Bonds. 
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One of the most amazing and damning things about that article is the Patriots' response.  Here is a long, detailed, well-researched effort that essentially accuses your organization of running a massive cheating scam including everything from stealing play sheets out of opponents' locker rooms to a massive organized effort to tape, decode and implement opponent playcalls that was 100x worse than people thought during the Spygate scandal ... and the Pats' response was "we didn't film a walk-through before the Super Bowl that one time."  It was for all intents and purposes an admission that the rest of the stuff in the article was true.

Think about that- they didn't even bother to contest the claim that they stole play sheets out of opponents' locker rooms, or that they rummaged through opponents' hotels for playbooks and scouting reports. That's not run of the mill cheating, that't bat#### insane.  And that's just the stuff Van Natta could get multiple sources admitting to- imagine what kind of crazy stuff they did (and presumably continue to do) that went unreported.

 
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I have always been a Marino guy and would argue for Marino to the death...

And I absolutely hated Brady early on..  i couldn't stand them beating the Rams in that SB, it was a disgusting bad beat.

However, Brady made me a believer.

I think he's not only a top 5 guy, but probably the best of all-time.. and I don't even like the Patriots.

Stats never tell the whole story...  the guy has done what the team has asked him to do for 15 years and in those years they've been to what.. 9 AFC championship games?

Sure he didn't have the gaudy numbers of Manning (and thus the MVP's)   but you can also have gaudy numbers on a mediocre to loser team..  see: Brees, Drew

In addition the numbers over time have been so skewed by rule changes and changes in the game.

IMO the ultimate stat guy was Marino because he was so far statistically ahead of his peers. 

Brady has been a winner with multiple different types of patriot teams (hard nosed defensive teams, balanced offense teams, high caliber offensive teams) and has played long enough to have that success over a few different cycles of NFL players/rules.

And he's still going..   Manning is done and "won" a superbowl on a team where he basically played like total garbage and was benched.

Brady seemingly could play at a high level another 2-3 seasons.. just adding to the legacy.

The "cheating" thing seems like the only thing that the brady haters can use against him... and frankly "deflated balls" and some video'd practices just aren't going to stick with him long term IMO.

 
How much better was Brady because his team stole play sheets and spied on practices than he would have been without that unfair advantage?  We will never know but he deserves an asterisk next to his name every bit as much as someone like Bonds in baseball. 

 
Top 5? lol

Tom Brady has played in 10 AFC Championship games.

Like him or not, he's the GOAT.

Signed,

Patriots hater

 
Skoo said:
Top 5? lol

Tom Brady has played in 10 AFC Championship games.

Like him or not, he's the GOAT.

Signed,

Patriots hater
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But only 6 superbowls.  Let's be honest, most qbs would have excelled surrounded by so many great wide receivers and running backs.  

 
Dentist said:
The "cheating" thing seems like the only thing that the brady haters can use against him... and frankly "deflated balls" and some video'd practices just aren't going to stick with him long term IMO.
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Umm, ok.

I concede to your point. I agree, Brady is absolutely amazing... except for that cheating thing.  

And you can ask Armstrong, Bonds, and Ben Johnson about how quickly everyone forgets the cheating.

The only difference is that their leagues weren't complicit in the cover up to keep the tv contracts rolling in every few years.

 
This kinda thread is funny... If you were to take every player of all-time at their rookie year and say we are drafting 32 teams, every player is available, in no universe does Brady not go top 5. 

 
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The legacy question will be better answered upon retirement.  I mean he could go another three years, tossing another 100 T.D.'s against 30 Int.'s with another 12,000 yards, 2 AFC championships and another Super Bowl.  That would put him in the rarified 70,000 yard and 500 T.D. club and would have him tied or exceeded in titles by very few, and none for a few generations.  That to me would make him have a solid argument as greatest of all time, with a taint kicker.

Now on the other hand he could get caught cheating again, have the pressure of that cause him to beat his wife publicly, rat out the cheating of the Pats organization over the years, throw 40 Int.;'s against 6 T.D.'s before retiring with no more wins and 16 more losses.  In that case he drops out of the top 10, easily.

I suspect the former is much more likely than the latter. Upon retirement he will very likely be in my top 5 in spite of his shortcomings.

BTW, any truth to the rumor that Ron Jaworski has offered him 5 million if Brady will agree to become a jaw and chin donor to Jaworski?

 
lombardi said:
Umm, ok.

I concede to your point. I agree, Brady is absolutely amazing... except for that cheating thing.  

And you can ask Armstrong, Bonds, and Ben Johnson about how quickly everyone forgets the cheating.

The only difference is that their leagues weren't complicit in the cover up to keep the tv contracts rolling in every few years.
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an NFL cover-up is an entirely different issue.

Admittedly whether right or wrong, there are different types of "cheating" and how people view them.   Take drugs to get an edge..  people don't like that..  it feels really scammy.. as unforgivable as online poker scammers who have access to  your hole cards.

But if you use a little too much pine tar on your bat, deflate your balls, use a little extra stick'em on your gloves,  scuff up the baseball, steal signs, put vaseline on your jersey... whatever... that's almost always forgiven.

 
lombardi said:
If you can read the ESPN story from last September and still feel like Brady/Belichick's accomplishments aren't tarnished then you truly are a homer

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart

This article absolutely destroys every argument and vindicates all of the accusers who were shouted down over the last 10 years.  We still don't know the whole truth, the NFL was complicit in destroying evidence and covering it up.  Those are facts.

Statistically is Brady top 5? Of course.  Top 3 at least, HOF first ballot, the whole deal.  But he is a cheater and so is his coach.  All these false equivalencies to salary cap misuse and stick 'em are ridiculous.  The Pats have an astounding organization-wide legacy of cheating that continues to this day.  The NFL has done everything they could to keep pushing it under the rug because it hurts the brand and calls into question at least 3 Super Bowl championships (all won by 3 points by the way).

This should be just as big, if not bigger, than Barry Bonds. 
Click to expand...
Isn't that article is everything we have been arguing about for years?  Patriots were probably getting signals for years and teams were insanely pissed at how the commish decided to handle it - mostly the teams they beat en route to the SBs.  The fact that we don't know the whole truth just adds to the fire. 

I just think the truth is somewhere in between.  It is ignorant to ignore the other reports and stories from other teams that they were taping stuff, it wasn't a big deal, they were going through the garbage of opposing teams after they left to see if they could mine info, etc..  So I think it's silly to assume the Pats were the only team participating in this, but it's also probably not correct to think they were doing it at an equal level that other teams might have been.  They took it farther and were nailed for it, and now other teams believe that was the reason they won their Super Bowls.  Right or wrong, I agree, all of this has be included in the discussion when this topic gets brought up. 

When you say "tarnished" I get the feeling you think they should be excluded in the discussions of GOAT because of the punishments - maybe that's not what you are saying though.  What I think a lot of people are saying is that their ability to have a high level of success over the last 2 decades despite the cap, rule changes, and looking at how many different ways they have been able to have success with their ever changing personnel points to Brady's ability trumping all the other stuff. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
Isn't that article is everything we have been arguing about for years?  Patriots were probably getting signals for years and teams were insanely pissed at how the commish decided to handle it - mostly the teams they beat en route to the SBs.  The fact that we don't know the whole truth just adds to the fire. 

I just think the truth is somewhere in between.  It is ignorant to ignore the other reports and stories from other teams that they were taping stuff, it wasn't a big deal, they were going through the garbage of opposing teams after they left to see if they could mine info, etc..  So I think it's silly to assume the Pats were the only team participating in this, but it's also probably not correct to think they were doing it at an equal level that other teams might have been.  They took it farther and were nailed for it, and now other teams believe that was the reason they won their Super Bowls.  Right or wrong, I agree, all of this has be included in the discussion when this topic gets brought up. 

When you say "tarnished" I get the feeling you think they should be excluded in the discussions of GOAT because of the punishments - maybe that's not what you are saying though.  What I think a lot of people are saying is that their ability to have a high level of success over the last 2 decades despite the cap, rule changes, and looking at how many different ways they have been able to have success with their ever changing personnel points to Brady's ability trumping all the other stuff. 
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You can't watch Brady play the game and not think he is one of the greatest QB's ever.  The guy has the best deep ball I've ever seen in my life.  No amount of cheating or foreknowledge can make that just happen.  He is tough, he sees the whole field, he is an amazing QB.  

That's why it's so sad he had to cheat.  Much like Lance Armstrong. He may have been able to do what he did, or much of it, without the cheating.  But we'll never know.

His first 3 Super Bowls were pre-scandel.  So deep in the cheating years.  Those Super Bowls were won by 3 points each.  Is he just a great closer?  Super clutch?

I'm an Eagles fan.  I know that in that Super Bowl we looked like the superior team in the first half.  The second half everything changed. I remember the post game interviews, before we ever heard anyone ever say anything about spygate, a couple Eagles players said "it was like they were in our huddle" or "we got out coached, they played like they knew what was coming".  Was this because Belichick is such an amazing coach and adjusted?  Or is it a half time spent going over Eagles play calls and then knowing what was coming?

I also know that Andy Reid and McNabb combined for the slowest, most flabbergasting 2 minute drill I've ever seen.  It's so bad that years later they were interviewing some Patriots coaches and they said Belichick was freaking out because he thought they were tricking him.  He was screaming "what are they doing" because he thought it was so inexplicable that it was a set up for some kind of trick play.

So did the Eagles lost that Super Bowl? Absolutely.  Were they in that position because Brady and/or Belichick knew what plays were coming in ahead of time?  I think so.  Sadly, we'll never know.  The NFL destroyed tapes, didn't follow up, and buried that story as quickly as they could.

So I think "tarnished" is the right word.  Brady is great, his physical talent is undeniable, his toughness is evident, he is clutch.  But would he have top 5 numbers and all 3 of those Super Bowls without taping the other team, possibly taping walk throughs, stealing plays, and whatever other cheating went on in an organization where cheating was fine if you don't get caught?  We'll never know.

 
Been a long while since the master fisherman worked on his craft.  The bait's a little stinky, though.  Might play better in the SP, GB.  

 
lombardi said:
I'm an Eagles fan.  I know that in that Super Bowl we looked like the superior team in the first half.  The second half everything changed. I remember the post game interviews, before we ever heard anyone ever say anything about spygate, a couple Eagles players said "it was like they were in our huddle" or "we got out coached, they played like they knew what was coming".  Was this because Belichick is such an amazing coach and adjusted?  Or is it a half time spent going over Eagles play calls and then knowing what was coming?

I also know that Andy Reid and McNabb combined for the slowest, most flabbergasting 2 minute drill I've ever seen.  It's so bad that years later they were interviewing some Patriots coaches and they said Belichick was freaking out because he thought they were tricking him.  He was screaming "what are they doing" because he thought it was so inexplicable that it was a set up for some kind of trick play.

So did the Eagles lost that Super Bowl? Absolutely.  Were they in that position because Brady and/or Belichick knew what plays were coming in ahead of time?  I think so.  Sadly, we'll never know.  The NFL destroyed tapes, didn't follow up, and buried that story as quickly as they could.
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The Eagles were blitz-happy that year.  No secret.  Of course the Pats knew what was coming.  The Eagles got outcoached because they were predictable.  Contrast that to what Denver did to the Pats this past AFCCG and it's night-and-day from the coaching side of things.

The other thing the Pats did to open the 3rd quarter was to isolate Deion Branch on Matt Ware in the slot.  Branch won MVP tearing that guy apart.  Much like the infamous 2 minute drill to end the game, the Eagles took their sweet time putting Sheldon Brown on Branch and when they finally did, Branch was held to just one catch the rest of the way and that catch should have been a pick, except for an amazing play by Branch to rip the pick away from Brown.  Eagles coaches were morons that day.

If you want to look for evidence of the Pats cheating their ways to titles, using SB39 doesn't come across as a good example.  At all.

 
lombardi said:
And you can ask Armstrong, Bonds, and Ben Johnson about how quickly everyone forgets the cheating.
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Not condoning what Brady and the Pats did but come on...there are shades of gray. Comparing deflate gate to any of the 3 above is like comparing a robber to a mass murder.

 
5 best I ever have seen with my own eyes and most or all their entire career:

1) Marino

2) Favre

3) Montana

4) Manning

5) Brady

6) Staubach

7) Elway

8) Brees

9) Warner

10) Rodgers

 
Buzzbait said:
Not condoning what Brady and the Pats did but come on...there are shades of gray. Comparing deflate gate to any of the 3 above is like comparing a robber to a mass murder.
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No, but spygate and all the other cheating in that article is not so gray. The only thing Deflategate did was confirm that nothing has changed.  What it really did was indict Brady.  Everyone assumed most of the other cheating was Belichick and Brady was along for the ride.  The actual infraction in deflategate was nothing compared to their previous cheating, it just showed us all Brady's character.... or lack thereof.

 
lombardi said:
No, but spygate and all the other cheating in that article is not so gray. The only thing Deflategate did was confirm that nothing has changed.  What it really did was indict Brady.  Everyone assumed most of the other cheating was Belichick and Brady was along for the ride.  The actual infraction in deflategate was nothing compared to their previous cheating, it just showed us all Brady's character.... or lack thereof.
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OK, he's not a guy of exactly high character. Fine. Regardless, nothing he's done comes close, IMO, to Armstrong or Bonds levels. That's another tier of crimes.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
Remember when LT2 was the consensus #1 fantasy pick every year even though he had never actually finished as the #1 scoring fantasy RB at the time?  Brady doesn't have to be first in any statistics to be one of the best if not the best.

I don't think there are any statistics that could convince me that Brady isn't one of the best ever.  Nor any scenario, really.  He's been a game manager when his team has needed a game manager, and he's been a "carry the team on your back" stud when the team needed a "carry us on your back" stud.

The ONLY argument that I think could be of any merit in arguing that Brady isn't one of the greats is if you argue that the Pats are all Belichick and we've never seen him play without an all-time great coach behind him.  That's a tough chicken and the egg argument to make and you could probably make the opposite argument with regards to whether or not Belichick is actually an all-time great without Brady, but it's the only approach that would be plausible if your intent was to argue that Brady is not an all-time great.

Signed,

Dolphins fan who hates the Pats.
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Agree and the QB/coach issue, to me, is like the old saying "show me a pro Bowl DE and I'll show you a pro bowl DB".  it's the teamwork of the two in the ultimate team game that make both more than they could ever be alone and that's how it should be. 

Some things are about intangibles and you can't measure it but you recognize the greatness of it when you see it.  Tom Brady and his career is like that.  We can measure the rings and argue that's what it is all about.  We can argue the arm and say a guy like Marino had no rings but what a prelease/arm.  It doesn't really matter. When you put it all together at the end of the day, you must simply know that Brady's career is one of the top, most iconic in the league's history. 

 
i don't even think what they claim he did (and may have actually done)  in deflating the ball is something anyone other than Roger Goodell would characterize as cheating, anymore than roughing up a baseball or putting pine tar on your bat handle in baseball is cheating.

for generations, QB's broke in the ball and kickers did all kinds of funny things to the ball,     BFD

 
I could see Brady retiring with 5 Super Bowl victories, 7 Conference championships with 12 appearances, what 14 division titles, or would it be more, 70,000 yards and 500 T.D.'s.  Those are some impressive numbers.   I wonder if he can make it to that level.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I could see Brady retiring with 5 Super Bowl victories, 7 Conference championships with 12 appearances, what 14 division titles, or would it be more, 70,000 yards and 500 T.D.'s.  Those are some impressive numbers.   I wonder if he can make it to that level.
Click to expand...
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here...

 
Joe T said:
Think the answer is cut and dry?  Think again.

Tom Brady is a great QB and in the group of best of all-time, but is he solidly in the top 5?  If you look at NFL MVPs, he is behind Manning (5), Unitas (3), and Favre (3), and tied with Steve Young (2), Kurt Warner (2), Aaron Rodgers (2), and Joe Montana (2).  In that group alone, he is probably 7th or 8th and that group does not include the likes of Marino, Elway, Bradshaw, Brees and others.

In all-time passing yards, Brady is 5th behind Manning, Favre, Marino, and Brees.  In touchdown passes, Brady is again behind Manning and Favre and tied with Brees.  If you went on career passer rating, Brady would be 6th behind Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Romo, Steve Young, and Peyton Manning.  Statistically speaking, Brady is not solidly in the top 5.

Then comes the question of playing for the Patriots who have been found guilty of cheating by the NFL twice.  This tarnishes most of the team accomplishments that Brady has been part of as a Patriot.  Given a level playing field, there is no way to know how many games he would have won.  So you really have to throw out most of the wins and losses because the results are really unknown.  And the other quarterbacks in the discussion didn't have the ill-gained advantages that Tom did on the field of play.

I think he is a borderline top 5 QB of all-time, but the cheating has me leaning toward pushing him to 6th or 7th on the all-time list.
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You do realize the taping in Spygate wasn't illegal until 2007 right?  So I'm not sure how you say it tarnishes the first 3 Superbowls. 

And honestly when you can't decide who had a better career between Warner and Brady you're either trolling or you didn't watch them both play (that's me giving you the benefit of the doubt you might have Warner ranked above and Brady tied with Young).

 
Joe T said:
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here...
Click to expand...
Fair enough.  Just wild speculation, but then so is all speculation on a legacy as yet unwritten.  One could speculate that he  also could be  the first person ever banned from all record books if he screws the pooch one more time.

 
lombardi said:
The guy has the best deep ball I've ever seen in my life.
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Have you watched much NFL football? I rank Brady in the top tier, but this seems like a pretty serious overstatement.

 
Niles Standish said:
You do realize the taping in Spygate wasn't illegal until 2007 right?  So I'm not sure how you say it tarnishes the first 3 Superbowls. 

And honestly when you can't decide who had a better career between Warner and Brady you're either trolling or you didn't watch them both play (that's me giving you the benefit of the doubt you might have Warner ranked above and Brady tied with Young).
Click to expand...
There were guidelines in place as to what for/when/where the taping was allowed for years before that.  However, it seems like it was enforced about as much as the PSI of footballs.  Teams complained, the memo reminder was put out, and the Pats still did it. 

 
Al Gore would have never invented the Internet if he knew it would lead to threads debating topics that don't really have a debate

please don't debate "Is Belichick a top 5 coach of all time" either or "is our sun a top 5 star in Earth's history" 

signed,

Jets Fan who really does not like the Patriots

 
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