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Israel has committed too many crimes. It’s time to stop supporting them. (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Insomniac
Footballguy
Yep. As far as I can tell the only 2 people on this board that paid any attention to this story are you and me.
timschochet
Footballguy
I paid attention.Insomniac said:
My whole life I’ve been a firm supporter of Israel. That ends today. This was the final straw.
I think we should cut off all support until they change their behavior.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Maybe I missed something, but didn't you just post that the IDF investigation couldn't determine which side killed her?
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timschochet
Footballguy
So a bit of further explanation:
I was raised in a secular Jewish household, liberal Democrats, and strong supporters of the state of Israel. My father and grandparents were Holocaust survivors with family in Israel. I read Exodus by Leon Uris as a teenager and it shaped my thoughts- the Israelis were the good guys, and all through my life Palestinian acts of terrorism proved that they were the bad guys. Here, in a world with so many grays, was a clear black and white situation with moral clarity. Like so many other American Jews, I associated any criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.
All of this has eroded over time as Israeli behavior has gotten more and more indefensible. But for the longest time I clung to a position of trying to defend them anyhow. I can’t do it anymore. The heroes of Uris’ novel are all gone, replaced by people behaving in an evil way.
rockaction
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I'd urge you to change the title of this thread back to something less inflammatory and back to something that is more intellectually honest.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Mr. Scochet, TEAR DOWN THAT TITLE!
timschochet
Footballguy
Umm- I’m being intellectually honest.
Also, regarding your comments about leftism, I don’t think that has anything whatsoever to do with my thinking. It’s interesting that so many people in this country seem to be shaping their views on this issue based on their political philosophy, but I’m not doing that.
rockaction
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I think it is. We should no longer give money to the State of Israel until they start behaving in a fashion that we can morally support again. How’s that?
rockaction
Footballguy
You don't want my honest opinion about that because it would likely hurt your feelings.
timschochet
Footballguy
Specifically- stop all new settlements. End patrols of Gaza and the West Bank. Stop indiscriminately shooting Palestinians. Pull out of those territories.
timschochet
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't think, when looking at the Palestinians and their authority, that deferring to their grievances is wise or even serious, especially if one is looking for some semblance of democracy in the midst of all their agitation.
It's not so nuanced as people would have us believe. There are a lot of people that want Israeli land for their own because their religion dictates that they have it. By any means necessary. And that the realization of this land will further their realization of the caliphate, and a world under Islamic rule. Sharia, namely.
This isn't a right-wing talking point. This is what the Palestinian ruling authorities have wanted for a long time. They still want it.
timschochet
Footballguy
This deserves a very detailed response. But I’m on my way to my daughter’s college graduation so it will have to wait.
rockaction
Footballguy
Fair enough. Enjoy the family time, tim. And congratulations to you and your daughter.
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rockaction
Footballguy
ren hoek did. As did I. I just wouldn't comment on it because I believe nothing that comes out of that region, especially things where there are Palestinians gathered in any numbers. These people hide munitions under elementary schools that are strewn with anti-Israeli rhetoric from the time the children are old enough to eat solid food.Insomniac said:
timschochet
Footballguy
OK I finally have the chance to respond to this,
@rockaction you may have misunderstood me. I haven’t changed my mind about the Palestinians. I agree with most of what you wrote (I might quibble on a few details). But the Palestinians are largely extremist. While many of their complaints about Israel are justified, their “solutions” to these complaints are radical and often murderous and evil. I have no sympathy for people who blow up schools and hospitals and never will. We can’t work with such people. For there to be a two state solution (still the best of many terrible options) the Palestinians are going to have to change their leadership, along with many of their demands.
And let me be even further clear: anyone who damns Israel while at the same time making excuses for Palestinian terrorism and extremism is a terrible hypocrite. And if their language against Israel and it’s American supporters is rooted in anti-Semitism (and here I’m specifically referring to Ihlan Omer) then that person deserves universal condemnation.
But none of this has anything to do with my opinion about Israel. Just because the Palestinians have acted badly doesn’t mean the Israelis haven’t acted badly. They have. They have committed awful, criminal acts. And frankly this means more to me than the Palestinian bad acts because I expect more from the Israelis. And so I can’t support them any longer.
rockaction
Footballguy
I think this is an error on your part. I think that Palestinian bad acts are just as important because they are predicated on destabilization through terrorist acts and deeds. They agitate to seek the destruction of Israel at all costs. I don't see how that can be discounted when judging the response. The bus bombings in the nineties, the terrorists in Tel Aviv and in Jerusalem basically throughout its existence since the late sixties. Suicide bombers from the West Bank and other places. The PLO in the eighties. Black September in Munich in '72. Over and over and over we see Jewish people, even outside of the state of Israel, threatened and terrorized by Palestinians.
It seems odd that we judge a community like Israel with such condemnation and scorn, both in Europe and in the West. It is a land threatened so readily and so easily by their stateless neighbors. That we see fit to blame Israel boggles my mind. I do not see a standard that anyone could meet when stateless neighbors are rejected refugee status by culturally similar neighbors, refuse any bipartite solution about the land in question, insist on a right of return, and when not granted that, firebomb civilians.
What exactly should Israel do? I'd love to hear it.
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timschochet
Footballguy
They should stop shooting journalists and covering it up. They should stop shooting innocent Palestinians. Kill the bad guys. But if you can’t kill the bad guys without killing innocent people at the same time, or you can’t tell the difference, don’t do it. Its morally evil, in the year 2022, to kill innocent civilians. It can’t be justified.
Most importantly, the Israelis should stop building settlements in Gaza or the West Bank or anywhere near the Old City of Jerusalem and pull out of the ones already built.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
timschochet changed the title to Israel has committed too many crimes. It’s time to stop supporting them.
*****
When did "you" become "we"?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I want zero part in your evolution towards antisemitism. If that's your personal path, that's your choice, feel free not to drag anyone else there with you. Particularly my fellow Conservatives.
@rockaction is right. Your thread title leans in an overtly negative way. I generally don't get too hung up in thread titles, but there is actually some cultural sensitivity to be played out here regarding Israel and antisemitism.
A simple "OP/ED" prefix would have cleaned up much of the problem. Then again, several people went right after Rock with the gas crisis thread, from "Death Of Democrats" to demanding something else. No one believes Rock was being literal. It was just the same radicals being pedantic to enforce silence against the moving goal posts of activist leftist group think's vision of punishable "wrong think"
rockaction
Footballguy
Thanks, GG, but I think maybe one or two people raised tepid concerns, and one of them was Joe because he has to look at it from an owner's perspective. But he did not -- I repeat did not -- ask me to change it. I changed it because it was less artful than the current title, which was suggested to me by none other than a non-woke guy named Dropkick, IIRC.
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
quick-hands
Footballguy
Move out of California. You are in occupied territory Tim. Set an example. Give you family business away to native Californian's. Or dont tell others what to do.
quick-hands
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
This made me laugh.
For years, my entire family believed that any criticism of Israel was anti-Semitic. It appears that this belief has been bought into by elements of the conservative movement. It’s especially ironic that you used the phrase “group think” later in your post.
timschochet
Footballguy
Unfortunately our ancestors committed our crimes against the native population of California in the 19th century. Does that make any criticism of Israel coming from Americans hypocritical? Historically, I suppose it could. But it doesn’t make it any less justified.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
To be honest, I don't really care about that stuff. Winners write the history books and make the rules.
And I agree, Israel can be criticized but I think you're taking it a step too far. The countries that are against Israel cannot be negotiated with and will not be negotiated with because they have one goal: and that is the entire destruction and elimination of Jews and Israel.
timschochet
Footballguy
I’ve made your argument in the past- I’ve come to believe it’s wrong and too simplistic. But that doesn’t matter. What matters is, even if you’re right, it doesn’t excuse the bad stuff that Israel is doing. Israel can withdraw from the occupied territories tomorrow and it’s sovereignty won’t be threatened. It doesn’t matter that Israel’s enemies want to destroy it because they face nuclear annihilation if they do. Israel will not be destroyed.
Insomniac
Footballguy
Who commented on this story besides myself prior to my comment ?
@whoknew @Navin Johnson so my apologies to Navin. I didn't see anything in this topic from Ren or Tim or you in this topic until after I made the comment.
My comments on this were entirely related to this specific incident. It's my belief that someone in the IDF deliberately targeted this woman. I don't believe it was ordered by anyone higher up. There also are videos of the attack on the woman's funeral that completely disgust me.
There should be an investigation, but there won't be because both US parties are completely behind Israel no matter what they do.
There are no "good guys" here.
rockaction
Footballguy
ren definitely did, just in another thread. He was quite vocal in his belief that Israel acted criminally and that it was being swept under the rug because of Israel's influence over our government.
I remained silent, as I said, because I don't trust anything that comes out of the news over there regarding Al-Jazeera journalists when it comes to Israel. I have no idea whether the woman was targeted or not. Something tells that if she was, she was more than just a journalist. These are the people that hide munitions factories in schools. I believe nothing that they tell me. On the other hand, you have a democratically elected government with basic human rights for its own citizens upon which you're casting aspersions. I would slow down and be really careful about taking up cause with the Palestinians.
Now, could this have been a grave error or an act of violence by Israel towards a reporter? Possibly. America had its Abu Ghraib and its torture in the Middle East, something to be ashamed of and disgusted by. Perhaps this is something similar in nature. I don't know. What I do know is I don't trust Al-Jazeera to give me the straight dope on the Palestine/Israel tensions.
quick-hands
Footballguy
So you get a free pass cuz the rules of the game changed. Show some cajones. Lead by example. Or stop talking
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
It may have been wrong back then, but it isnt wrong anymore because it can never be made right.
timschochet
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
As more facts come out, this seems to get worse and worse.
'They were shooting directly at the journalists': New evidence suggests Shireen Abu Akleh was killed in targeted attack by Israeli forces
...
But an investigation by CNN offers new evidence — including two videos of the scene of the shooting — that there was no active combat, nor any Palestinian militants, near Abu Akleh in the moments leading up to her death. Videos obtained by CNN, corroborated by testimony from eight eyewitnesses, an audio forensic analyst and an explosive weapons expert, suggest that Abu Akleh was shot dead in a targeted attack by Israeli forces.
'They were shooting directly at the journalists': New evidence suggests Shireen Abu Akleh was killed in targeted attack by Israeli forces
...
But an investigation by CNN offers new evidence — including two videos of the scene of the shooting — that there was no active combat, nor any Palestinian militants, near Abu Akleh in the moments leading up to her death. Videos obtained by CNN, corroborated by testimony from eight eyewitnesses, an audio forensic analyst and an explosive weapons expert, suggest that Abu Akleh was shot dead in a targeted attack by Israeli forces.
Toby2ElectricBugaloo
Footballguy
Man, I wish @ren hoek was still around so I could enjoy the exquisite irony of him praising CNN for keeping the story alive.
'They were shooting directly at the journalists': New evidence suggests Shireen Abu Akleh was killed in targeted attack by Israeli forces
Anyway, not sure what's been going on with tim for the last 23 pages, but if this account is true and the Israeli government doesn't show any accountability or regret you can count me among the Jews who no longer support the state of Israel in anything remotely resembling its current form. I've visited the country three times so I have a real bond with the place and its people, but this is absolutely beyond the pale.
'They were shooting directly at the journalists': New evidence suggests Shireen Abu Akleh was killed in targeted attack by Israeli forces
Anyway, not sure what's been going on with tim for the last 23 pages, but if this account is true and the Israeli government doesn't show any accountability or regret you can count me among the Jews who no longer support the state of Israel in anything remotely resembling its current form. I've visited the country three times so I have a real bond with the place and its people, but this is absolutely beyond the pale.
timschochet
Footballguy
Exactly the way I feel Toby. Unlike you I’ve never been, but I have family and close ties. And I just can’t support them any longer.
That doesn’t mean that I have to support Palestinians, or extremism or terrorism. And it doesn’t make us antisemite as one poster ridiculously asserted-lol. It just means I think we should stop aiding Israel.
Toby2ElectricBugaloo
Footballguy
On my last visit I ended up smoking hash with a Palestinian who told me about his experiences in Jerusalem as a second-class citizen, so the visit thing goes both ways.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Hey Tobias… hope all is well friend !
I actually posted about it in the media criticism thread. Agreed, absolutely sickening.
As for CNN, they literally hired a former AIPAC editor to broadcast the news for them (Wolf Blitzer). Most cable news services are demonstrably propaganda networks so I don’t think they should be getting credit any time soon. It’s good they reported on this but they’re about as guilty as anyone of reporting on “clashes” between IDF soldiers and Palestinian kids throwing rocks.
quick-hands
Footballguy
I don't know. The older your daughters got the more leftist you've become. Not liberal. Leftist.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Dang. So just to get this straight... Jewish thinker dares to question Isreal in a serious way and is villified and lazily cast as a Palestinian supporter as a result. Are we not allowed to question Isreal at all without being cast as Palestinian fanboys? Is it the manner in which he questioned Isreal that has you guys at arms?
Before you answer, just so I have some context about your potential biases, are you Jewish? I ask only for context to try to understand where you are coming from. While I am a non-denominational God worshipper, many of my best and dearest friends are Jewish or Muslim, so I have no dog here. I'm just curious if you might, to help me understand your stances.
Before you answer, just so I have some context about your potential biases, are you Jewish? I ask only for context to try to understand where you are coming from. While I am a non-denominational God worshipper, many of my best and dearest friends are Jewish or Muslim, so I have no dog here. I'm just curious if you might, to help me understand your stances.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
He's projecting. Most that equate anything against Israel as anti-Semitism are using the accusation to cover the fact that they simply don't like non-white people.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I think it is ridiculous to name all critics of the nation of Israel as anti-Semitic. Clearly that isn't the case for anyone who thinks the state of Israel has done some bad things. And I don't disagree with some of the criticism.
However, Israel is like no other nation on the planet. They are literally surrounded by nations who have millions of people who have declared war on the Jews and are committed to their complete annihilation. No other people group has to directly deal with that much overt hate on the planet. Nobody.
So for that reason, I give them a long leash in how they deal with outsiders. Quite frankly, and I believe this is their internal stance, what we think doesn't matter. We don't know what we don't know. They don't get some kind of blanket immunity to criticism, but I'm very, very slow to criticize how they choose to defend themselves.
However, Israel is like no other nation on the planet. They are literally surrounded by nations who have millions of people who have declared war on the Jews and are committed to their complete annihilation. No other people group has to directly deal with that much overt hate on the planet. Nobody.
So for that reason, I give them a long leash in how they deal with outsiders. Quite frankly, and I believe this is their internal stance, what we think doesn't matter. We don't know what we don't know. They don't get some kind of blanket immunity to criticism, but I'm very, very slow to criticize how they choose to defend themselves.
Gopher State
Footballguy
Biden’s response to the recent events was we will need to investigate these events. Biden is 100 percent for supporting them. Nothing will change.
timschochet
Footballguy
I agree with a lot of this and it’s why I’ve always, until now, been a supporter and given them a very long leash. But at least for me there is a limit to that leash and they’ve gone way past it. I say we stop supporting them until and unless they show they’re back in the fold of decent, civilized free nations- the way they used to be.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
drive by post:
If we irradiate Jerusalem and make it uninhabitable by humans, what will the western religion idiots fight about next?
If we irradiate Jerusalem and make it uninhabitable by humans, what will the western religion idiots fight about next?
whoknew
Footballguy
How about when they murder an American citizen/journalist and then cover it up? Can we criticize them then?
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Pretty sure all parties in the middle east melodrama have committed haenous crimes in support of their dogmatic "faith-based" obsession with Israel/Palestine. Oil and Jesus do not mix. #irradiatejerusalemnow.
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