What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Its about the economy man (1 Viewer)

Look, it’s already a Ponzi scheme funded by higher earners. Lean into it. It works and provides a valuable backstop to our older generation. It’s also become a cornerstone of our system, it’s baked in like Medicare.  Long term solvency is vital.  Want to see risk for politicians? See what happens to those that let it fail from people like me who’ve paid into it for over 30 yrs. 
Understand, I've been paying in now for almost 25.  Honestly I'm fine if they take mine today if they'd quit making me pay more but that is a pipe dream.  It's like every entitlement program we have, you can't stop it once you start it.  We used the initial tax to pay people who never paid in, you can never end it after that point.

 
Look, it’s already a Ponzi scheme funded by higher earners. Lean into it. It works and provides a valuable backstop to our older generation. It’s also become a cornerstone of our system, it’s baked in like Medicare.  Long term solvency is vital.  Want to see risk for politicians? See what happens to those that let it fail from people like me who’ve paid into it for over 30 yrs. 
SS is fine.  Minor tweaks keep it afloat for a long time.  Medicare is the problem — the math is broken for Medicare.

 
We have awhile still but there will be some nice bond buying opportunities at the height of this inflation tightening curve.
Yea HYG is 5.6% yield. Not enough to go in on yet. Let me know when 7.25-7.5% gets there. Of course at those levels stocks would be a lot cheaper and a better bet to beat inflation. We broke the 200 day on the weekly chart. Support at 72 might be a good trade down at the 400 day. Covid lows later on might happen.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Basically.   Our politicians have all lost the ability to make tough short-term decisions that will benefit us all in the long run.
Isn't this simply a result of politicians reacting to what the public wants?  The public punishes politicians who make tough short-term decisions that benefit us in the long-term and reward politicians who kick the can down the road.

 
Isn't this simply a result of politicians reacting to what the public wants?  The public punishes politicians who make tough short-term decisions that benefit us in the long-term and reward politicians who kick the can down the road.
Sure.  But so what?  Do the right thing, not the easy thing.

 
Sure.  But so what?  Do the right thing, not the easy thing.
Sure, we can say that.  But play it out a bit...  The politicians who do the right thing (long-term benefit at cost of short-term pain) get voted out, replaced by those who promise to reverse course and give the public what they want now.  Yes, politicians suck and they are all terrible at explaining the idea of long-term benefit, but ultimately, it's the public who is to blame for preferring short-term solutions.

 
Sure, we can say that.  But play it out a bit...  The politicians who do the right thing (long-term benefit at cost of short-term pain) get voted out, replaced by those who promise to reverse course and give the public what they want now.  Yes, politicians suck and they are all terrible at explaining the idea of long-term benefit, but ultimately, it's the public who is to blame for preferring short-term solutions.
Yeah…none of them have the stones to do what George HW Bush did when he raised taxes because it was what was necessary. 

 
Not really.  Actuarially speaking, he’s going to live another 30-40 years.   That’s a long time horizon. It would be foolish to put too much into bonds with that horizon.
His life expectancy at age 55 is 25 years. Somewhere around 2% of males live over age 80. How do actuaries arrive at 30-40 years?

 
I know…he knew it would cost him re-election.  But he did it anyway.  Because it was what was needed.


What good is his word then...there's a big difference between saying "I will do everything I can not to raise taxes" and "read my lips, no new taxes."

 
Last edited by a moderator:
What good is his word then...there's a big difference between saying "I will do everything I can not to raise taxes" and "read my lips, no new taxes."
I think you are missing my point.   He knew that…he knew it would screw him.   But then when raising taxes was needed, he did it anyway because it was the right thing.

Im not even sure what you are trying to argue.

 
I think you are missing my point.   He knew that…he knew it would screw him.   But then when raising taxes was needed, he did it anyway because it was the right thing.

Im not even sure what you are trying to argue.


I am not missing the point.

 
You gave him credit for having stones when in-fact he lied during the campaign because he knew there was a chance he might have to do it.
 Yes. And yet…the stones are still doing it…despite knowing he would not be re-elected.   
 

 
 Yes. And yet…the stones are still doing it…despite knowing he would not be re-elected.   
 


No stones would have been not making a campaign promise you knew you weren't going to keep...he got what he deserved for lying.

 
No stones would have been not making a campaign promise you knew you weren't going to keep...he got what he deserved for lying.
So your opinion was that he knew he would have to…and that he actually had a chance to not be elected in the first place?  He smoked Dukakis.

What he did was what took stones.  

 
His life expectancy at age 55 is 25 years. Somewhere around 2% of males live over age 80. How do actuaries arrive at 30-40 years?
Well, it’s a long story.  Depends on race, economic status, etc.  The average US white male who is 65 is expected to live to around 82 or 83.   By age 75, that climbs to almost 85.

Either way, I was off by about 5 years or so.  My bad, haven’t been an actuary in a long time.

edit to add:  a time horizon of 25-30 years is still a long investment horizon

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Understand, I've been paying in now for almost 25.  Honestly I'm fine if they take mine today if they'd quit making me pay more but that is a pipe dream.  It's like every entitlement program we have, you can't stop it once you start it.  We used the initial tax to pay people who never paid in, you can never end it after that point.


I would wager, tragically of course, that in my working life and across my entire career path and given all my companies, that I'm probably in the Top 5 to Top 10 in terms of total taxes paid for every regular FBG poster who has ever existed.

Here's my position. If I could say, "I paid a lot in taxes, but damn does this place have the best schools in the entire world and the best educational system in the entire world" then at least I could say something good happened from it. But I can't say that. All I see is staggering waste. I pay Gavin Newsom's salary. In fact, in the decade he was Lt Governor, I was paying his salary back then too. And while he was under fire for his recall, because he kept running the state in the ground and got caught at the French Laundry defying his own rules, he started giving away money to try to buy back votes. Not his money, tax payer money. My money. The money of other people here.

What no one is talking about is the entire class of "retirees" who have to basically "unretire"

Not only is that a devastating loss of voters for the Democrats, but it lends the impression of total hopeless for young people trying to carve out a career for themselves and starting out. What's the point if you can never retire, never buy a home, never do more than suffer check to check, never afford college practically speaking, always be a paycheck and a half away from being totally homeless and watch your future being destroyed while printing presses keep churning out new dollar bills.

Like most people who own their own companies, while I'm retired, I'm not always truly "retired" And I feel the pull day by day and more and more in the last two years of being dragged back into the fray. I paid my dues Shula. I really did suffer and fight. I put endless gobs of money into this system. And what was the ROI for our society? For my godson? For the children of my employees. For your kids. For the kids of the people here.

Did I really grind for decades upon decades so Pete Buttigieg could tell me how hard it was to take a three month government paid vacation, in the middle of a national crisis, while lecturing everyone on buying an electric car that most Americans can't afford?

Shula, you are a very thoughtful poster, very bipartisan when it comes to economics and finance. I'm actually in the more fortunate situation compared to most retirees. But I wanted to ask you about the impact of people who paid their dues and now have to drag themselves back out into this madness. I have my own companies, I have a soft landing, or as soft as it will get for being a geriatric. What about these other working class stiffs who have to go back out there with limited job skills or obsolete skills or can only take jobs that are brutal physically on them in their old age and health.

I want to ask you, at what point does America on an economic and financial basis, start to open up a ramp in threat point of ending up like other Third World countries?

 
Well, it’s a long story.  Depends on race, economic status, etc.  The average US white male who is 65 is expected to live to around 82 or 83.   By age 75, that climbs to almost 85.

Either way, I was off by about 5 years or so.  My bad, haven’t been an actuary in a long time.

edit to add:  a time horizon of 25-30 years is still a long investment horizon
Thanks. Still not sure I understand the numbers, both anecdotally and on a population level. Anyway, I agree it’s a long time.

 
De-risking isn't about returns.  
Buying bonds when rates are rising is the exact opposite of good investment advice. Sometimes increasing cash is de-risking. Stagflation is a tough investing environment. Traditional 60/40 might get you killed. Overweight energy energy. BP is still cheap. KMI is still cheap. Get bond like dividend payments with capital appreciation. Underweight bonds is the right call in this environment.

 
Huh, it's almost like we shouldn't have gone out of our way to appoint a doveish fed chair in 2018, then slashed interest rates to nearly zero during a strong economy because we politicized the stock market, leaving that doveish fed chair with nothing to do to stimulate the economy other than promising to literally print unlimited money if, say, a worldwide pandemic were to hit while rates were already at zero.
2018?  Try 2008-2016.  We had ZIRP during that time and most of that time the economy was doing well.  It's easy to just blame Trump, but that problem goes right to Obama.  

 
2018?  Try 2008-2016.  We had ZIRP during that time and most of that time the economy was doing well.  It's easy to just blame Trump, but that problem goes right to Obama.  


Well there was this little thing called the great financial crisis we were coming out of at the start of that.  That was exactly what cutting rates is designed for. 

Though it's definitely fair to argue we should have raised sooner, and I would agree with that, but that was at least the fed acting on its own accord.  If you want to put some of the blame on Obama for not pressuring a raise then I'm fine with that.

Trump was different because he openly pressured the fed to cut rates since he selfishly politicized the stock market, and he was far more concerned with people being able to say "I don't like what he says, but my 401k!" for a little while longer than he was with the actual consequences.

Regardless, it's all just so bizarre to me to see inflation constantly blamed on Biden when we slashed rates and printed unlimited money well before Biden had even won the nomination.  Inflation is not a problem we created in 2021.  Not even close.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well, it’s a long story.  Depends on race, economic status, etc.  The average US white male who is 65 is expected to live to around 82 or 83.   By age 75, that climbs to almost 85.

Either way, I was off by about 5 years or so.  My bad, haven’t been an actuary in a long time.

edit to add:  a time horizon of 25-30 years is still a long investment horizon
Ouch

 
Regardless, it's all just so bizarre to me to see inflation constantly blamed on Biden when we slashed rates and printed unlimited money well before Biden had even won the nomination.  Inflation is not a problem we created in 2021.  Not even close.
It is very fair to blame Biden for his role in the inflation mess. Not so much in the cause, but 100% in lack of solutions.

a) out-of-control inflation has manifested under his watch (so it's his problem now to fix because "the buck stops with me")

b) massive denial/ignorance that inflation was ever even a problem (but transitory!)

c) he renominated the same dove-ish Fed Chair that admitted he has been way late in addressing the issue (so now Biden owns Fed policy)

d) $1.9 trillion further stimulus amidst strong GDP growth (stupid)

e) insistence that more spending is the solution (stupid)

f) Russian sanctions (this one will obviously stir emotions but nevertheless it was a choice. That choice has inflationary ramifications. And Biden made this choice).

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I would wager, tragically of course, that in my working life and across my entire career path and given all my companies, that I'm probably in the Top 5 to Top 10 in terms of total taxes paid for every regular FBG poster who has ever existed.

Here's my position. If I could say, "I paid a lot in taxes, but damn does this place have the best schools in the entire world and the best educational system in the entire world" then at least I could say something good happened from it. But I can't say that. All I see is staggering waste. I pay Gavin Newsom's salary. In fact, in the decade he was Lt Governor, I was paying his salary back then too. And while he was under fire for his recall, because he kept running the state in the ground and got caught at the French Laundry defying his own rules, he started giving away money to try to buy back votes. Not his money, tax payer money. My money. The money of other people here.

What no one is talking about is the entire class of "retirees" who have to basically "unretire"

Not only is that a devastating loss of voters for the Democrats, but it lends the impression of total hopeless for young people trying to carve out a career for themselves and starting out. What's the point if you can never retire, never buy a home, never do more than suffer check to check, never afford college practically speaking, always be a paycheck and a half away from being totally homeless and watch your future being destroyed while printing presses keep churning out new dollar bills.

Like most people who own their own companies, while I'm retired, I'm not always truly "retired" And I feel the pull day by day and more and more in the last two years of being dragged back into the fray. I paid my dues Shula. I really did suffer and fight. I put endless gobs of money into this system. And what was the ROI for our society? For my godson? For the children of my employees. For your kids. For the kids of the people here.

Did I really grind for decades upon decades so Pete Buttigieg could tell me how hard it was to take a three month government paid vacation, in the middle of a national crisis, while lecturing everyone on buying an electric car that most Americans can't afford?

Shula, you are a very thoughtful poster, very bipartisan when it comes to economics and finance. I'm actually in the more fortunate situation compared to most retirees. But I wanted to ask you about the impact of people who paid their dues and now have to drag themselves back out into this madness. I have my own companies, I have a soft landing, or as soft as it will get for being a geriatric. What about these other working class stiffs who have to go back out there with limited job skills or obsolete skills or can only take jobs that are brutal physically on them in their old age and health.

I want to ask you, at what point does America on an economic and financial basis, start to open up a ramp in threat point of ending up like other Third World countries?
Ever since Nixon and China shook hands with China in 1971 we have been on this trajectory you describe. Reversing this trend is what MAGA is all about. I guess if your supply lines and labor are based in China MAGA is a threat to your profits. We have to get our independence back. This is why I bought INTC this week. Bringing jobs to OH and making America great again. Not the dependent weakling we are now.

 
If the economy is your most important issue, then it would be suboptimal to vote for Trump. He had a terrible track record with the economy. Looking at Reagan to present, he presided over a rise in unemployment from 4.8% to 6.7% losing 2.9 million jobs; he ran publicly held federal debt way up (entire existence of this country's public debt up until Trump's term: $14.4 trillion, added during Trumps 4 years: $7.2 trillion); S&P 500 rose 40% during his term, but this is actually the second worst increase beating out W and paling in comparison to the big numbers Clinton (182.1%) and Obama (117.7%) put up; and he had the worst GDP growth over his term of all of these recent presidents with just 4% growth, which was over 30% with both Reagan and Clinton. The second worst was HW Bush with 9.2%. Oh, and the inflation of today has it's roots in the tariffs Trump put in place as much as it does with Russia/Ukraine.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
It is very fair to blame Biden for his role in the inflation mess. Not so much in the cause, but 100% in lack of solutions.

a) out-of-control inflation has manifested under his watch (so it's his problem now to fix because "the buck stops with me")

b) massive denial/ignorance that inflation was ever even a problem (but transitory!)

c) he renominated the same dove-ish Fed Chair that admitted he has been way late in addressing the issue (so now Biden owns Fed policy)

d) $1.9 trillion further stimulus amidst strong GDP growth (stupid)

e) insistence that more spending is the solution (stupid)

f) Russian sanctions (this one will obviously stir emotions but nevertheless it was a choice. That choice has inflationary ramifications. And Biden made this choice).


Sure these things haven't exactly helped, but it's a far cry from what you'll typically see from the right which is that this was 100% Biden's fault and were it not for him we wouldn't be in this mess.

It's like someone getting hit by a car, then run over by a bus, then shot in the heart, and people blame the paramedic for using the wrong kind of band-aid on the corpse.  That person was already dead, and this inflation was already written.

Regarding point "c" directly, that is typically how this is supposed to work.  It is very unusual for a president to nominate a new fed chair in their first term even when the prior chair was appointed by the other "team", as it's meant to insulate the fed from partisan politics.  That's what makes Trump putting Powell in there in the first place even more egregious than just putting in a dove-ish chair.  He was openly bucking the tradition of NOT politicizing the fed by openly politicizing the fed for his own gains.  That shouldn't necessarily be surprising given that it was a staple of his (he did the same with the AG, FBI, etc), but in this particular case directly and heavily contributed to the mess we're in now.

 
Ur buyin cheap baby!

I hear ya on gas.  It's going close to $6 here in Oregon......time to pedal my ### around more I guess

 
FreeBaGeL said:
Sure these things haven't exactly helped, but it's a far cry from what you'll typically see from the right which is that this was 100% Biden's fault and were it not for him we wouldn't be in this mess.

It's like someone getting hit by a car, then run over by a bus, then shot in the heart, and people blame the paramedic for using the wrong kind of band-aid on the corpse.  That person was already dead, and this inflation was already written.

Regarding point "c" directly, that is typically how this is supposed to work.  It is very unusual for a president to nominate a new fed chair in their first term even when the prior chair was appointed by the other "team", as it's meant to insulate the fed from partisan politics.  That's what makes Trump putting Powell in there in the first place even more egregious than just putting in a dove-ish chair.  He was openly bucking the tradition of NOT politicizing the fed by openly politicizing the fed for his own gains.  That shouldn't necessarily be surprising given that it was a staple of his (he did the same with the AG, FBI, etc), but in this particular case directly and heavily contributed to the mess we're in now.
I could care less "what you'll typically see from the right."

And "typically how this is supposed to work?" Being president is not some recipe handed down from grandma. Each new administration has unique challenges that are theirs alone to figure out. 

What I laid out are Biden-specific causes, policy errors and lack of progress in solutions that are his and his alone. Own them and fix them or sayonara and good riddance.

 
I could care less "what you'll typically see from the right."


But those are the standards you are applying.  This isn't a 1 year fix so saying "it's his fault because he didn't fix it in his first year" isn't a reasonable standard.  Biden didn't create the inflation problem, though the majority of the right will claim he did.  That's my only point.

And "typically how this is supposed to work?" Being president is not some recipe handed down from grandma. Each new administration has unique challenges that are theirs alone to figure out. 


Biden absolutely made the right choice to protect the political neutrality of the fed.  Confirming Trump's new precedent of assigning/pressuring it into the political will of the president every 4 years would have been an utter disaster long-term.  A new fed chair with every new president that sets policies in the interest of making the guy who appointed him look good rather than setting polices in order to do what they believe most helps the country.

Imagine the Supreme court if the president had the power to replace justices at any time they wanted.

Biden strongly confirming that the fed is to be left to its own devices, outside of his own political optics was absolutely the correct choice, especially since it's not like anything done since then would have had any impact on actual inflation yet anyway.

 
But those are the standards you are applying.  This isn't a 1 year fix so saying "it's his fault because he didn't fix it in his first year" isn't a reasonable standard.  Biden didn't create the inflation problem, though the majority of the right will claim he did.  That's my only point.

Biden absolutely made the right choice to protect the political neutrality of the fed.  Confirming Trump's new precedent of assigning/pressuring it into the political will of the president every 4 years would have been an utter disaster long-term.  A new fed chair with every new president that sets policies in the interest of making the guy who appointed him look good rather than setting polices in order to do what they believe most helps the country.

Imagine the Supreme court if the president had the power to replace justices at any time they wanted.

Biden strongly confirming that the fed is to be left to its own devices, outside of his own political optics was absolutely the correct choice, especially since it's not like anything done since then would have had any impact on actual inflation yet anyway.
I am absolutely not applying the standards of "the right." I am applying the standards of the Average Joe/Jane who doesn't own stock whose real wages and purchasing power are declining on a daily basis. They don't care a hoot about all the left/right political theater.

And Powell wasn't renominated because of "political neutrality." That's horrible. He was nominated because Biden was hoping and praying the inflation problem would simply go away (but transitory!) and therefore Powell presented the lowest political and stock market risk to his presidency. Larry Summers (passed over by Obama) and others were easily as well qualified as Powell, would also guarantee political neutrality, and have more Volcker-esque hawkish stances on inflation.

Presidents should nominate the Fed Chair best qualified for the current and expected future challenges of the job. If that's the same person as before, awesome. If not, have the balls to make a change.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
FreeBaGeL said:
Well there was this little thing called the great financial crisis we were coming out of at the start of that.  That was exactly what cutting rates is designed for. 

Though it's definitely fair to argue we should have raised sooner, and I would agree with that, but that was at least the fed acting on its own accord.  If you want to put some of the blame on Obama for not pressuring a raise then I'm fine with that.

Trump was different because he openly pressured the fed to cut rates since he selfishly politicized the stock market, and he was far more concerned with people being able to say "I don't like what he says, but my 401k!" for a little while longer than he was with the actual consequences.

Regardless, it's all just so bizarre to me to see inflation constantly blamed on Biden when we slashed rates and printed unlimited money well before Biden had even won the nomination.  Inflation is not a problem we created in 2021.  Not even close.
ZIRP was carried on way, way too long and there really isn't any pushback on that.  It was a massive mistake that the Fed has owned up to.  Trump did not succeed in his pressure - I highly disagree with his methods there.  His reasoning, though, was correct - Obama got the most dovish financial system for his entire tenure.   

Inflation kicked up with Biden's spending.  It just did.  It was the straw that broke the camel's back.  However, he had departments of economists to help make sure this doesn't happen and he pushed through reckless spending (and wanted to do more with BBB) anyway.  No slack - his desk, his actions, his fault.

 
GordonGekko said:
I would wager, tragically of course, that in my working life and across my entire career path and given all my companies, that I'm probably in the Top 5 to Top 10 in terms of total taxes paid for every regular FBG poster who has ever existed.

Here's my position. If I could say, "I paid a lot in taxes, but damn does this place have the best schools in the entire world and the best educational system in the entire world" then at least I could say something good happened from it. But I can't say that. All I see is staggering waste. I pay Gavin Newsom's salary. In fact, in the decade he was Lt Governor, I was paying his salary back then too. And while he was under fire for his recall, because he kept running the state in the ground and got caught at the French Laundry defying his own rules, he started giving away money to try to buy back votes. Not his money, tax payer money. My money. The money of other people here.

What no one is talking about is the entire class of "retirees" who have to basically "unretire"

Not only is that a devastating loss of voters for the Democrats, but it lends the impression of total hopeless for young people trying to carve out a career for themselves and starting out. What's the point if you can never retire, never buy a home, never do more than suffer check to check, never afford college practically speaking, always be a paycheck and a half away from being totally homeless and watch your future being destroyed while printing presses keep churning out new dollar bills.

Like most people who own their own companies, while I'm retired, I'm not always truly "retired" And I feel the pull day by day and more and more in the last two years of being dragged back into the fray. I paid my dues Shula. I really did suffer and fight. I put endless gobs of money into this system. And what was the ROI for our society? For my godson? For the children of my employees. For your kids. For the kids of the people here.

Did I really grind for decades upon decades so Pete Buttigieg could tell me how hard it was to take a three month government paid vacation, in the middle of a national crisis, while lecturing everyone on buying an electric car that most Americans can't afford?

Shula, you are a very thoughtful poster, very bipartisan when it comes to economics and finance. I'm actually in the more fortunate situation compared to most retirees. But I wanted to ask you about the impact of people who paid their dues and now have to drag themselves back out into this madness. I have my own companies, I have a soft landing, or as soft as it will get for being a geriatric. What about these other working class stiffs who have to go back out there with limited job skills or obsolete skills or can only take jobs that are brutal physically on them in their old age and health.

I want to ask you, at what point does America on an economic and financial basis, start to open up a ramp in threat point of ending up like other Third World countries?
That’s a very difficult question to answer, especially after a long day. Obviously in the most simplistic terms, inflation is the current driver of our problems in this area. Not the only one, but near term it’s what’s causing Americans who are retired or close to retiring the biggest problems. If you were planning to retire soon, the only way you can today is if you really were still working because you wanted to and had plenty of leeway and excess in your retirement funds. Otherwise inflation and the market turbulence has pushed that date off.
 

Perhaps worse are those who just recently retired thinking they had enough, but now with inflation that just isn’t the case anymore. For those people they gave up their job and now suddenly are seeing 10% roughly cost of living increase in only a year and a substantial reduction of assets still exposed to the market. Like someone said here the other day, moving to bonds isn’t about the return, it’s a risk off play for those who need it. 

 
The Democrat Party can paint the Republicans as extremists all they want but Americans are going to blame them every time they have to pump gas or go to the grocery store. The Republicans might not need to spend a dime on the 2022 election cycle.  

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top