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JonBenet Ramsey 20 years later: my expert take on the crime (1 Viewer)

The Commish said:
This is for comments the German made in a subsequent interview.  Your comment above suggests there's a lawsuit based on the TV show.  Is that a different one?  I used that google thing you provided in the link (pretty cool) but it didn't spit out anything of use for me.....maybe I'm doing it wrong :shrug:  
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I don't know, man. You can figure it out.

 
Willie Neslon said:
The Commish said:
This is for comments the German made in a subsequent interview.  Your comment above suggests there's a lawsuit based on the TV show.  Is that a different one?  I used that google thing you provided in the link (pretty cool) but it didn't spit out anything of use for me.....maybe I'm doing it wrong :shrug:  
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I don't know, man. You can figure it out.
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It was your assertion :shrug:

I just wanted to read about it because the show made no such claims that I remembered.  The show provided possible explanations based on the evidence they were provided.  In the end doesn't matter...we're all left guessing.

 
Brother did it, mother covered it up despite Willie's inability to believe such a scenario for some crazy reason. 

 
RUSF18 said:
Brother did it, mother covered it up despite Willie's inability to believe such a scenario for some crazy reason. 
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Just doesn't make sense. She cares so much about one child she would cover up a murder for him but doesn't care enough about the other one to even call an ambulance?

 
Willie Neslon said:
Just doesn't make sense. She cares so much about one child she would cover up a murder for him but doesn't care enough about the other one to even call an ambulance?
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Yes, it sounds just as likely that she would do that as she would be the one to personally murder her own daughter over bedwetting etc which is what you believe. I honestly find it amazing that you can say one of those is likely true but the other is completely out of the realm of possibility. It just doesn't make sense.

 
Patsy was herself a beauty queen. Scored a rich older husband. All her life she's told how beautiful she is.  Now she's approaching 40 and recovering from cancer. She's not the beauty she was before. These days all she hears is what a gorgeous little girl JonBenet is. Patsy is the one who dresses her up, makes sure her hair and make up look great and JonBenet doesn't even appreciate it. JonBenet basks in the compliments while Patsy is only asked about her health, no more compliments for her. On Christmas night the bed wetting is the final straw and Patsy completely loses it, slamming JonBenet's head against the tub or bathroom wall. She may have even been trying to kill her then. She's thinking maybe life will be better for her if JonBenet is gone. She'll will be treated differently now. People will have sympathy for her. She'll be the only beauty in the family, nobody stealing compliments. Whacked out thoughts like that happening as she stages the murder scene. She screams to alert the husband as to what has happened. When does he realize what has happened? At what point does he decide to go with the kidnapping/ransom story? This is family #2 for him and he's already lost his adult daughter. Maybe he can't handle any more loss. He remarried fairly soon after Patsy died. This is a guy who doesn't like to be alone.

 
RUSF18 said:
Yes, it sounds just as likely that she would do that as she would be the one to personally murder her own daughter over bedwetting etc which is what you believe. I honestly find it amazing that you can say one of those is likely true but the other is completely out of the realm of possibility. It just doesn't make sense.
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This is me.  I wouldn't be surprised with either one being true.  It's just that if I HAD to bet on it, I'd go the brother route.  The evidence presented in that show is all I am going on.  I paid it zero attention prior to a few months ago, so the context of that show is the only way I've exposed myself to it.

 
RUSF18 said:
Yes, it sounds just as likely that she would do that as she would be the one to personally murder her own daughter over bedwetting etc which is what you believe. I honestly find it amazing that you can say one of those is likely true but the other is completely out of the realm of possibility. It just doesn't make sense.
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Bedwetting rage is a real thing as cited by the psychiatrist working with law enforcement on this case. 

 
RUSF18 said:
Yes, it sounds just as likely that she would do that as she would be the one to personally murder her own daughter over bedwetting etc which is what you believe. I honestly find it amazing that you can say one of those is likely true but the other is completely out of the realm of possibility. It just doesn't make sense.
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From a behavioral standpoint the actions of the parents don't make sense in this scenario. They had nothing to do with the murder and loved their little girl. So if she was severely injured or dead, they just leave her to die in the basement and then incriminate themselves in a coverup so they can shield their son from what? Getting psychological help? He just killed his 5 year old sister and the parents think the best way to proceed is he should just carry on in life like nothing happened? Wouldn't they fear that maybe something could happen to them? Wouldn't they know that they'd fall under suspicion if they went that route? Why would they open themselves up to that if they didn't have to? In the Patsy did it scenario the cover-up route makes sense as she's trying to save her own skin. She'd have gone to prison or worse. The brother had no history of violence, never roughhoused with the sister. In the middle of the night on Christmas he just whacks her in the head with a flashlight so hard it causes an 8 inch crack in her skull...then strangles her a few hours later?

That CBS special reminded me of the Kennedy assassination special on History(?) channel a few years ago where they concluded a secret service agent was responsible for the head shot when his gun accidentally discharged. Completely ridiculous. I guess you have to come up with crazy stuff to get the networks to buy your special.

 
Willie Neslon said:
From a behavioral standpoint the actions of the parents don't make sense in this scenario. They had nothing to do with the murder and loved their little girl. So if she was severely injured or dead, they just leave her to die in the basement and then incriminate themselves in a coverup so they can shield their son from what? Getting psychological help? He just killed his 5 year old sister and the parents think the best way to proceed is he should just carry on in life like nothing happened? Wouldn't they fear that maybe something could happen to them? Wouldn't they know that they'd fall under suspicion if they went that route? Why would they open themselves up to that if they didn't have to? In the Patsy did it scenario the cover-up route makes sense as she's trying to save her own skin. She'd have gone to prison or worse. The brother had no history of violence, never roughhoused with the sister. In the middle of the night on Christmas he just whacks her in the head with a flashlight so hard it causes an 8 inch crack in her skull...then strangles her a few hours later?

That CBS special reminded me of the Kennedy assassination special on History(?) channel a few years ago where they concluded a secret service agent was responsible for the head shot when his gun accidentally discharged. Completely ridiculous. I guess you have to come up with crazy stuff to get the networks to buy your special.
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Lump parts of the above, with parts of the below and you probably have your answer. (i.e. assume mom was as you described below and plop her into the scenario above)....a lot of your questions "go away" because the person below wouldn't give a #### about most of the things above.

Willie Neslon said:
Patsy was herself a beauty queen. Scored a rich older husband. All her life she's told how beautiful she is.  Now she's approaching 40 and recovering from cancer. She's not the beauty she was before. These days all she hears is what a gorgeous little girl JonBenet is. Patsy is the one who dresses her up, makes sure her hair and make up look great and JonBenet doesn't even appreciate it. JonBenet basks in the compliments while Patsy is only asked about her health, no more compliments for her. On Christmas night the bed wetting is the final straw and Patsy completely loses it, slamming JonBenet's head against the tub or bathroom wall. She may have even been trying to kill her then. She's thinking maybe life will be better for her if JonBenet is gone. She'll will be treated differently now. People will have sympathy for her. She'll be the only beauty in the family, nobody stealing compliments. Whacked out thoughts like that happening as she stages the murder scene. She screams to alert the husband as to what has happened. When does he realize what has happened? At what point does he decide to go with the kidnapping/ransom story? This is family #2 for him and he's already lost his adult daughter. Maybe he can't handle any more loss. He remarried fairly soon after Patsy died. This is a guy who doesn't like to be alone.
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Just an observation here....take it FWIW, but you seem to think it's either/or which tells me, you come to this with an already formed opinion looking for the evidence to support said opinion.  You jump immediately to motive and coming up with a story.  Genuine question....did you follow this prior to the latest special that was aired a few months ago?  I didn't and I certainly don't know enough about these individuals to determine what "logical" behavior would be out of them.  What's logical to you is irrelevant.  You can make up a million stories that makes sense to you.  But that's not the bar we measure the evidence to.

The story you've come up with, makes little sense to me and I can't wrap my head around it.  So if our standard is "what makes sense to me" then we're all SOL.

 
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The Commish said:
Lump parts of the above, with parts of the below and you probably have your answer. (i.e. assume mom was as you described below and plop her into the scenario above)....a lot of your questions "go away" because the person below wouldn't give a #### about most of the things above.

Just an observation here....take it FWIW, but you seem to think it's either/or which tells me, you come to this with an already formed opinion looking for the evidence to support said opinion.  You jump immediately to motive and coming up with a story.  Genuine question....did you follow this prior to the latest special that was aired a few months ago?  I didn't and I certainly don't know enough about these individuals to determine what "logical" behavior would be out of them.  What's logical to you is irrelevant.  You can make up a million stories that makes sense to you.  But that's not the bar we measure the evidence to.

The story you've come up with, makes little sense to me and I can't wrap my head around it.  So if our standard is "what makes sense to me" then we're all SOL.
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I've read this a few times and don't know what you're trying to say. Sorry. No, I didn't follow any special. I posted a video, the theory from the detective on page one of the thread. He seems like a guy who's insight is worth something. You should start there.

 
Willie Neslon said:
Bedwetting rage is a real thing as cited by the psychiatrist working with law enforcement on this case. 
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I'm sure it is.  

Let's go through an exercise in order to better understand your thoughts on this case. Let's say there are 4 moms that can be described in the following manner:

Mom #1: The greatest mother in the history of the world. Some nerd invents an objective ranking system and a computer spits her out in the #1 slot.

Mom #2: Your average suburban mom. Loves her kids, takes care of them, but gets frustrated/angry/annoyed at certain times.

Mom #3: Watches one child bash her other child in the head with an object, basically killing her. In a panic, and in an effort to protect her other child, comes up with a story about a kidnapping, writes a ransom note, and stages a scene to make it look like her daughter wasn't killed by her son but in a much more graphic and very likely sexual matter.

Mom #4: Kills her own daughter in a moment of rage/jealousy/psychosis/whatever. Comes up with a story about a kidnapping, writes a ransom note, and stages a scene to make it look like she didn't kill her own daughter but it was done by a stranger in a much more graphic and very likely sexual matter.

Plot your assessments of these Moms on the following scale of Good to Bad:

Good Mom                                                                                                                                                                                                 Bad Mom

        I-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I

 
I'll go first. My assessment, spoilered, FWIW. 

Good Mom                                                                                                                                                                                                 Bad Mom

        I-1--2--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------34I
 
Willie Neslon said:
I've read this a few times and don't know what you're trying to say. Sorry. No, I didn't follow any special. I posted a video, the theory from the detective on page one of the thread. He seems like a guy who's insight is worth something. You should start there.
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I don't need to start anywhere :mellow:  

Quite simply, all you've done is come up with a few scenarios.  One you say makes sense to you one you say doesn't.  It's likely that neither is completely true the way you created them yet you are convinced you are correct and everyone else is wrong.  Now what?

 
The Commish said:
I don't need to start anywhere :mellow:  

Quite simply, all you've done is come up with a few scenarios.  One you say makes sense to you one you say doesn't.  It's likely that neither is completely true the way you created them yet you are convinced you are correct and everyone else is wrong.  Now what?
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OK, great.

 
wormburner said:
The best defense is an aggressive offense.
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Willie Neslon said:
I disagree.  If you did it or had anything to hide why open yourself up to a deposition?
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I'm just throwing spitballs, man, I don't have any idea.  With the info available to us, though, I think the intruder angle is pretty weak.  Putting the accuser/system on trial can be a useful defense.  It worked for O.J. and possibly for the Ramsey's.

 
The Commish said:
I don't need to start anywhere :mellow:  

Quite simply, all you've done is come up with a few scenarios.  One you say makes sense to you one you say doesn't.  It's likely that neither is completely true the way you created them yet you are convinced you are correct and everyone else is wrong.  Now what?
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Yes, but Willie's is an expert take.

 
AAABatteries said:
I know this is going to come across toolish but why do you any of your care?  It's been 20 ####### years.  I like the crime mystery stuff as much as anybody but this one has been beaten to death and it's not really that interesting.
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Perhaps not the best choice of wording.

 
Always figured the dad was molesting the daughter, and that's why he covered up - and potentially why mom or he killed her.  Bed wetting is a real warning sign after age 5 - it's not a definite, but with the pageant stuff and the fact that the ME said she'd been sexually violated multiple times in her life, really figured that was the deal.

 
Henry Ford said:
Always figured the dad was molesting the daughter, and that's why he covered up - and potentially why mom or he killed her.  Bed wetting is a real warning sign after age 5 - it's not a definite, but with the pageant stuff and the fact that the ME said she'd been sexually violated multiple times in her life, really figured that was the deal.
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No chance - Willie's on the case and his training tells him that this wasn't possible.

BEDWETTING RAGE!!

 
The flashlight is interesting to me.  Why is it out...being used often?  Why was that what was potentially used?

I think the crap-on-the-wall-smearing brother was using the flashlight to go in and experiment with the little sister. He doesnt want to turn on the lights in the house to alert parents.  She wets bed from this.  Maybe she struggles...he smacks her with it.  And probably still experiments with her...chokes her to death and mom finds the aftermath.  Instead of losing two kids...husband hides her body and wife makes up the ransom note.

 
tdoss said:
I think the crap-on-the-wall-smearing brother was using the flashlight to go in and experiment with the little sister. He doesnt want to turn on the lights in the house to alert parents.  She wets bed from this.  Maybe she struggles...he smacks her with it.  And probably still experiments with her...chokes her to death and mom finds the aftermath.  Instead of losing two kids...husband hides her body and wife makes up the ransom note.
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Too far fetched, imo. No evidence of the flashlight being used like that.

 
Willie Neslon said:
Too far fetched, imo. No evidence of the flashlight being used like that.
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Did you just imply that there's no evidence of the flashlight being used as a.......flashlight? Because that's the only thing I see the flashlight being used for in tdoss' scenario.

I don't find any of the scenarios posted in here to be any more likely than another.

 
tdoss said:
The flashlight is interesting to me.  Why is it out...being used often?  Why was that what was potentially used?

I think the crap-on-the-wall-smearing brother was using the flashlight to go in and experiment with the little sister. He doesnt want to turn on the lights in the house to alert parents.  She wets bed from this.  Maybe she struggles...he smacks her with it.  And probably still experiments with her...chokes her to death and mom finds the aftermath.  Instead of losing two kids...husband hides her body and wife makes up the ransom note.
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 It's an educated guess based on the experiments done on the special.  The results were almost identical to the actual injuries the little girl sustained.  

 
Ruffrodys05 said:
Did you just imply that there's no evidence of the flashlight being used as a.......flashlight? Because that's the only thing I see the flashlight being used for in tdoss' scenario.

I don't find any of the scenarios posted in here to be any more likely than another.
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That's because you're not an expert.

 
The Commish said:
 It's an educated guess based on the experiments done on the special.  The results were almost identical to the actual injuries the little girl sustained.  
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Right...I was asking why or who would use the flashlight to bash her skull?

I'm proposing because the brother had it cause he was creeping into her room and had it in hand.

 
Reason why i don't think it was the brother is because he was 9 years old and would have broken.  He was interviewed by detectives and i don't care how smart a 9-year-old is they will break.  Also, 9-year-olds can't keep secrets, he woulda blabbed to his friends and other classmates.

 
ILUVBEER99 said:
Reason why i don't think it was the brother is because he was 9 years old and would have broken.  He was interviewed by detectives and i don't care how smart a 9-year-old is they will break.  Also, 9-year-olds can't keep secrets, he woulda blabbed to his friends and other classmates.
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Agreed.

 
ILUVBEER99 said:
Reason why i don't think it was the brother is because he was 9 years old and would have broken.  He was interviewed by detectives and i don't care how smart a 9-year-old is they will break.  Also, 9-year-olds can't keep secrets, he woulda blabbed to his friends and other classmates.
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Meh.

How much can you interrogate a kid?

Need parent's permission and they're probably present entire time.  Probably lawyer advising as well.

 
tdoss said:
Right...I was asking why or who would use the flashlight to bash her skull?

I'm proposing because the brother had it cause he was creeping into her room and had it in hand.
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Could be easier than that.  It was sitting out and he decided to hit her with it because she took his food or some such.  Brother was interviewed by a behavior psychologist that felt something wasn't right, but only got one shot because that's all the parents would allow.  Not sure if he went to subsequent sessions with someone else or not.  Wasn't mentioned in the special.  

 
The Commish said:
Could be easier than that.  It was sitting out and he decided to hit her with it because she took his food or some such.  Brother was interviewed by a behavior psychologist that felt something wasn't right, but only got one shot because that's all the parents would allow.  Not sure if he went to subsequent sessions with someone else or not.  Wasn't mentioned in the special.  
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I pointed out earlier in the thread that the guy is clearly a stone cold murderer.

 
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