What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

JT O'Sullivan (1 Viewer)

Al the QBs stunk last game, we'll see how they do as a group tomorrow. But I honestly thought JT looked like the best Martz type QB. He has a quick release and throws the ball before his WRs break. Alex on the other hand played very conservatively, made poor decisions and still seems to script his passes too much with his loopy delivery. Hill looked plain bad, but I've never been a Hill fan, he's a career backup QB.
I'm going to post text from the comments from a poster named Marcos regarding Smith, off of Kevin Lynch's blog. Tell me what you think of it:
In response to Chuck's question as to what the 49ers have done for Alex Smith in the previous Kevin post, Chuck you miss the point. Alex has the same issues he had the first day he walked on the 49er practice field. And that was 4 years ago. Whether he has had 1 or 5 OC's has no bearing on his inability to adjust or improve fundamental QB skills. These are not physical shortcomings they are mental. You would think that someone that has been in professional camps, practices and games for this length of time would absorb a certain amount just through osmosis. Look at the improvement that Shaun Hill has made and he has been buried on the depth chart everywhere he has been. You would think that the obstacles that Alex has had to deal with would actually help develop his ability to create but Smith is so rigid in his mental approach that he lacks the necessary qualities that most NFL QBs have: to make plays!In this past game, Starkey and Plummer commented numerous times that Alex appears uncomfortable under center, but seems in his element in the shotgun. He continues to have difficulties throwing to a spot or anticipating his receivers' moves. He leads safeties to his targets because he does not look them off and stares at his primary receiver. When plays breakdown he is lost and generally throws the ball out of bounds. He continues to employ a single escape move when pressured, he sprints out right.Better NFL QBs consider single coverage on a receiver as an open receiver, yet Alex becomes stymied if the receiver hasn't clearly beaten his man. This goes to accuracy. An NFL QB has to put the ball in an 12" box whether it is back shoulder, out front, low and away and let his receivers earn their money.I have been an Alex Smith supporter these last 3 years because he is a superior athlete, smart and other than his flap with Nolan last year, generally keeps his mouth shut or parrots the company line. With Alex the potential is obvious. But unless he learns to play football, clear his mind, react to what he sees and cut it loose, he will not have success in this league.
I always respect a fan's valid opinion, which is why I read this forum. Unless it's about Favre of course. :wink:Smith's hesitance comes from the philosophy of Nolan, being that he is trying to mold the 49ers into Baltimore West. That means all he wants from Smith is to not make take chances, and manage the game with a conservative approach. Really, you could have drafted a QB in the lower rounds if you wanted that. Nolan wanted to bring in Dilfer in his first year. Heck, Nolan said that he thought Dilfer played the best at the position he had ever seen, after a loss last season, after he threw Smith under the bus. Talk about salt being poured into Smith's wounds. But now, all of the sudden, Martz is here. How do you go from a game manager to an assassin in one training camp? Especially if you have weak fundamentals already? Turner scaled down his offense to emphasize Smith's natural abilities, which was his mobility, but it was no where near a dynamic offense, outside of the running game, and if Gore wasn't there, and you had to put the offense on Smith's back, well, we can only guess how that would work out. There is no way in hell Smith would win a QB shootout. The only time the 49ers scored more than 2 tds was against OAK in 2006. God Bless DET fan. I'll never exprerence their full pain, but the Yorks will probably retain Nolan, like the Fords retain Millen, and even worse, Nolan might post an 8-8 season, and we will also have our own Wayne Fontes too.
 
drummer said:
5Rings said:
drummer said:
Nolan convinced the Owners that the offense was the real problem for the 5-11 season,
It was. :goodposting:
The real problem was that Nolan's "plan" for offense finally came up and bit him in the behind. His main reason for Hostler was keep continuity with Smith, not because he had any acumen for the job. Was he handcuffed with Turner leaving late? Sure he was, but there was another guy on staff in Sullivan that actually had OC experience in AZ. Could he have done better than Hostler? I don't see how he could have done worse. The team could have been 3-13 if it wasn't for two plays in the first 2 games. Smith got hurt of course, but Nolan didn't recognize that, and refused to even after Julian Peterson pointed out he looked hurt after a SEA game. Hostler was Smith's QB coach. So by promoting Hostler, he took away continuity with Smith, and if Hostler would have remained Smith's QB coach, he could have backed Smith up when Nolan threw Smith under the bus. Let's not forget how Nolan like's to play favorites, especially on defense, and especially with Derek Smith, who was flat out horrible, but still started.

Hill saved Nolan's job by playing well in 2 meaningless games. Nolan had no clue of who he was, and he didn't start him until Dilfer got hurt.

I could go on and on about how bad of a coach Nolan is, but this season will prove it anyway.
of course
 
Well by the looks of this, JTO is going to be the starter in SF. He threw a pick last night as well as a TD. He does he three turnovers this preseason though. But from the sounds of everything, its leaning that way. Interesting sleeper. I took him with my very last pick in my 2QB league. I'm really interested in seeing this develop.

link

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Smith's hesitance comes from the philosophy of Nolan, being that he is trying to mold the 49ers into Baltimore West. That means all he wants from Smith is to not make take chances, and manage the game with a conservative approach. Really, you could have drafted a QB in the lower rounds if you wanted that. Nolan wanted to bring in Dilfer in his first year. Heck, Nolan said that he thought Dilfer played the best at the position he had ever seen, after a loss last season, after he threw Smith under the bus. Talk about salt being poured into Smith's wounds. But now, all of the sudden, Martz is here. How do you go from a game manager to an assassin in one training camp? Especially if you have weak fundamentals already? Turner scaled down his offense to emphasize Smith's natural abilities, which was his mobility, but it was no where near a dynamic offense, outside of the running game, and if Gore wasn't there, and you had to put the offense on Smith's back, well, we can only guess how that would work out. There is no way in hell Smith would win a QB shootout. The only time the 49ers scored more than 2 tds was against OAK in 2006. God Bless DET fan. I'll never exprerence their full pain, but the Yorks will probably retain Nolan, like the Fords retain Millen, and even worse, Nolan might post an 8-8 season, and we will also have our own Wayne Fontes too.
I have to admit, the offense as a whole looked great last game. It also helped that the defense was outstanding (6 sacks, 2 TOs) and kept giving great field position to the O. I agree with you, the Niners will probably play well enough for Nolan to keep his job this year.Regarding Alex, if you watch closely, he totally stares down his receivers, he also waits too long for them to get into position and then tries to cannon the ball to them, often throwing off target. He doesn't anticipate receivers at all, and doesn't know the meaning of touch. I've always hated his delivery too, he brings the ball way down and ends up with a slow loopy delivery, which just gives his defenders more time to disrupt the pass. I think he had two balls batted away last night. He also overthrew an easy touch down to Jason Hill, and way under threw an easy touch down to Morgan. His accuracy stinks. I agree that he's a superior athlete, he has a strong arm, and can run quick, but maybe its his lack of accuracy that really causes his lack of confidence.
 
O'Sullivan is terrible. He did not impress me at all last night. His TD was on a blown coverage. He completed less than 50% of his passes. He makes terrible decisions. He played just like this for the Lions. He turns the ball over too much and does not have a great arm. The only reason he will start is because he knows the offense. He is a 3rd string caliber QB.

Alex Smith looked lost at times, but that is not too surprising considering the complexity of the Martz offense. He was thinking too much instead of just playing. Whether he ever "gets it" remains to be seen, but it's still too early to give up on him. And the changing coordinators every year is definitely a factor. How can it not be?

I do not think Hill has gotten much of a chance, although reports say he has not practiced well. It's hard to pass judgment on him right now.

The choice of who to start is all Martz. As far as I'm concerned, sell O'Sullivan high and buy the #2 QB (whoever it is) low. I really can't imagine him starting for long.

 
I guess the right question at this point would really be: what reason is there to believe O'Sullivan won't be the week one starter? This assumes of course you've been keeping up with the daily camp news the last 2 weeks and aren't relying on some month old write up somewhere.O'Sullivan has been taking all 1st team reps the last 8 or 9 practice days, started game one and will start game 2 of preseason, and Smith just hasn't looked good. Hill BTW is now completely out of the picture, getting no camp reps unless one of the other two guys is resting. Also, Smith is away from camp a couple of days due to the death of a good friend this week, though he'll play Saturday night.O'Sullivan is an unknown, but just because he has no pedigree, don't simply write him off as irrelevant. Warner and Bulger had no pedigree either. (And do read the Tefertiller article linked above. Good stuff.) O'Sullivan had a head start in the Martz system due to his DET days, and he's been decisive while Smith has been tentative. Smith hasn't been progressing as the team had hoped and has done nothing to close the gap. In fact that gap has widened between the two QBs, and in the minds of local writers who cover the team the competition is essentially over at this point. In addition, the team saves about $20MM in contract incentives if Smith doesn't start this year, so if they've made the decision that he's no longer their future, he may never see the field.So, unless something weird happens, O'Sullivan will be your week one starter. Whether he can keep the job is another matter, but we'll just have to see how that goes.
Thanks for this :goodposting:
 
O'Sullivan is terrible. He did not impress me at all last night. His TD was on a blown coverage. He completed less than 50% of his passes. He makes terrible decisions. He played just like this for the Lions. He turns the ball over too much and does not have a great arm. The only reason he will start is because he knows the offense. He is a 3rd string caliber QB. Alex Smith looked lost at times, but that is not too surprising considering the complexity of the Martz offense. He was thinking too much instead of just playing. Whether he ever "gets it" remains to be seen, but it's still too early to give up on him. And the changing coordinators every year is definitely a factor. How can it not be?I do not think Hill has gotten much of a chance, although reports say he has not practiced well. It's hard to pass judgment on him right now.The choice of who to start is all Martz. As far as I'm concerned, sell O'Sullivan high and buy the #2 QB (whoever it is) low. I really can't imagine him starting for long.
I completely agree. I think his interception last night is more indication of the type of QB he is than his touchdown. The guy's a collosal ####### too. This isnt the guy I want leading my team.One thing that's been said about Alex Smith is that he's never completely comfortable in an offense unless he understands it 100%. Considering the complexity of a Martz offense, it's no surprise he may be lagging. He's still the only QB on that roster that has any sort of upside, however.Hill's arm is just as terrible as O'Sullivan's.
 
Smith's hesitance comes from the philosophy of Nolan, being that he is trying to mold the 49ers into Baltimore West. That means all he wants from Smith is to not make take chances, and manage the game with a conservative approach. Really, you could have drafted a QB in the lower rounds if you wanted that. Nolan wanted to bring in Dilfer in his first year. Heck, Nolan said that he thought Dilfer played the best at the position he had ever seen, after a loss last season, after he threw Smith under the bus. Talk about salt being poured into Smith's wounds. But now, all of the sudden, Martz is here. How do you go from a game manager to an assassin in one training camp? Especially if you have weak fundamentals already? Turner scaled down his offense to emphasize Smith's natural abilities, which was his mobility, but it was no where near a dynamic offense, outside of the running game, and if Gore wasn't there, and you had to put the offense on Smith's back, well, we can only guess how that would work out. There is no way in hell Smith would win a QB shootout. The only time the 49ers scored more than 2 tds was against OAK in 2006. God Bless DET fan. I'll never exprerence their full pain, but the Yorks will probably retain Nolan, like the Fords retain Millen, and even worse, Nolan might post an 8-8 season, and we will also have our own Wayne Fontes too.
I have to admit, the offense as a whole looked great last game. It also helped that the defense was outstanding (6 sacks, 2 TOs) and kept giving great field position to the O. I agree with you, the Niners will probably play well enough for Nolan to keep his job this year.Regarding Alex, if you watch closely, he totally stares down his receivers, he also waits too long for them to get into position and then tries to cannon the ball to them, often throwing off target. He doesn't anticipate receivers at all, and doesn't know the meaning of touch. I've always hated his delivery too, he brings the ball way down and ends up with a slow loopy delivery, which just gives his defenders more time to disrupt the pass. I think he had two balls batted away last night. He also overthrew an easy touch down to Jason Hill, and way under threw an easy touch down to Morgan. His accuracy stinks. I agree that he's a superior athlete, he has a strong arm, and can run quick, but maybe its his lack of accuracy that really causes his lack of confidence.
The other thing Smith does that drives me nuts is he always scrambles to the right and BACKWARDS. So when he finally makes some pitiful attempt to throw the ball, it's got nothing on it and basically no chance. I'm not nearly as close to the situation as some of you guys, but I watch the Niners a lot (Gore owner) and Smith hasn't shown me much of anything. Hill was by far the best QB last year, and I'm not sure why he's not getting a fair shot.
 
Little JTO, you're really lookin' fine

Finding Morgan for a touchdown was a real good sign

Alex Smith ain't catchin' up now,

Listen to him why-ee-eye-ine,

C'mon and turn it on, wind it up, blow it out, JTO

Wa-wa...

 
Last edited by a moderator:
JT will start week one, I have little doubt. He has the experience in a complicated system that allows him to be more confident. Can Smith grow and gain the same confidence? That remains to be seen and I doubt it.

Bottom line is all 3 of these guys suck right now and Martz/Nolan will take JT to start as he gives them the best chance to win. I see the 9ers going to Smith as he becomes more confident with the schemes to give him one last shot before moving on with a QB in FA or in next years draft!

 
It looks like JTO and Morgan are connecting with each other, with JTO hitting Morgan in stride. Morgan, as well as the other WRs, have to adjust to Smith's ball. I'm still trying to remember when Smith threw a slant pattern. Again, I saw more of the Martz offense and formations with JTO at QB then I saw with the other 2 QBs last night. Smith looked like he reacted quicker than last game, but he still hangs his head after a missed play. I saw JTO get pissed at a WR running a wrong route. I also saw JTO get pissed at himself for leading Foster into getting clocked.

I guess I saw more fire in JTO than what I saw in Smith. That, as well as the other things mentioned, give JTO an edge with the guy who makes the decision, and that's Martz. I'm not saying both of these guys are very good. They're not, and the defense will have to carry the offense once again. JTO's INTs are a concern, but if he has bought into Martz's offense, whose past QBs threw a lot of INTs, then Martz will work with that.

JTO seems to fit into Martz's philosophy, and Smith is still carrying Nolan's philosophy. It's going to be interesting following the dynamic between both coaches. They both share the same agent, so that may help if there is any friction in the future, and it could come down to Nolan wanting to scale things down to cut the TOs down, run the ball more, and start the QB who makes less mistakes because you take less chances.

Forget about Hill. He isn't even in question at this point.

 
I saw more of the Martz offense and formations with JTO at QB then I saw with the other 2 QBs last night.
That is to be expected since O'Sullivan spent a year in this offense in 2007, while the other QBs are still trying to figure it out.
:D Also, remember that Smith's best friend committed suicide a week ago and the funeral was Friday in Smith's family's back yard - so Alex Smith had a whole lot other than football on his mind for this preseason game. Link

It's been an especially trying week for Smith. He disclosed that his closest friend, David Edwards, 24, committed suicide Sunday. Smith will miss today's practice in order to attend a service for Edwards in the San Diego area. He's scheduled to fly back to the Bay Area on Saturday in time for the game.

Edwards was a housemate at Smith's home in Los Gatos for two years before moving back to San Diego last year. The two had been friends since they were 14, and Edwards often vacationed with the Smith family. The Friday service will be in the Smiths' backyard in Bonita.

He was "really close with my family," Smith said. "So it's been difficult for everybody." He said, "It will be good to go down and see his old friends and family."
In short, I wouldn't read too much into O'Sullivan starting this preseason game - although I agree he's in the lead in the QB contest and have changed my rankings to reflect. Now, if Smith starts preseason week 3 and stinks, or O'Sullivan starts preseason week 3 again, THEN I'm a lot more certain the 49ers are going to go with O'Sullivan for the start of 2008 - and I may move him up my QB board a tad as a result. But this week has been skewed by an unforeseen tragedy affecting Smith. On the other hand, a person doesn't process their grief over a suicide in 2 weeks (or a month, or a year), so my personal opinion is Alex Smith probably won't be in a place to fully focus on football this month (at the minim - although others have pointed out that he might use this event to dedicate his season to his friend and emerge stronger than before - it is possible...).

My .02.

 
In short, I wouldn't read too much into O'Sullivan starting this preseason game - although I agree he's in the lead in the QB contest and have changed my rankings to reflect. Now, if Smith starts preseason week 3 and stinks, or O'Sullivan starts preseason week 3 again, THEN I'm a lot more certain the 49ers are going to go with O'Sullivan for the start of 2008 - and I may move him up my QB board a tad as a result. But this week has been skewed by an unforeseen tragedy affecting Smith.
Mark, it looks like you have either missed or glossed over the fact that JTO hasn't just started one preseason game because Smith was gone due to his friend's suicide, but that he has been the starter in practice, getting all 1st team reps for 2 full weeks now and has started both preseason games. I'm glad you've changed your rankings. Anyone stubbornly holding to outdated notions of Smith being the starter and ranking these guys accordingly is simply burying his head in the sand, and to still be posting rankings showing Smith as starter is a disservice to subscribers. Research the news from any Bay Area paper you like - Chronicle, Merc, Press Democrat, whatever - and it'll become clear that JTO is the week one starter even though Nolan hasn't officially named him.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
In short, I wouldn't read too much into O'Sullivan starting this preseason game - although I agree he's in the lead in the QB contest and have changed my rankings to reflect. Now, if Smith starts preseason week 3 and stinks, or O'Sullivan starts preseason week 3 again, THEN I'm a lot more certain the 49ers are going to go with O'Sullivan for the start of 2008 - and I may move him up my QB board a tad as a result. But this week has been skewed by an unforeseen tragedy affecting Smith.
Mark, it looks like you have either missed or glossed over the fact that JTO hasn't just started one preseason game because Smith was gone due to his friend's suicide, but that he has been the starter in practice, getting all 1st team reps for 2 full weeks now and has started both preseason games. I'm glad you've changed your rankings. Anyone stubbornly holding to outdated notions of Smith being the starter and ranking these guys accordingly is simply burying his head in the sand, and to still be posting rankings showing Smith as starter is a disservice to subscribers. Research the news from any Bay Area paper you like - Chronicle, Merc, Press Democrat, whatever - and it'll become clear that JTO is the week one starter even though Nolan hasn't officially named him.
I don't think they have a clear cut starter until they give Smith a chance to start with the first team offense. JTO is in there to get the offense acclimated to Martz's scheme. I think Martz was impressed on how well JTO bought into his offense in camp, and the reports from camp was that JTO looked the sharpest after he got significant snaps in camp. Despite his familiarity with Martz's offense, JTO still has nothing on Smith when it comes to actual game time. To me, it's like this: JTO is "raw", meaning that Martz can adapt him to his offense faster than having to try and correct Smith's tendencies that stem from horrid development. Turner adjusted things to fit Smith on where he was at, and he spent a lot of time with him before the 2006 season began. The actual competition was supposed to be between Smith and Hill. JTO came in and turned things upside down. I agree that Smith's personal tragedy had an influence on deciding if he started last night, but is doesn't discount the impact JTO has had in camp. If the competition was solely between Smith and Hill, Smith wins that one. Those were the choices Nolan had before JTO stepped into the picture. Hill just got a $6 million 3 year deal. I don't know what JTO makes, but I don't think he makes that kind of money in SF.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I disagree, drummer. I think that if they were wanting Smith to have a real chance of starting to begin the regular season, you would have seen him get first team reps in practice. That hasn't been happening. He wasn't getting those reps before his friend died, so I don't think he would have started last night regardless. I can't imagine them giving him the preseason week 3 start at this point, or the regular season week 1 start. Neither, apparently, can the local writers who follow the team. Anything is possible I suppose, but I'd be very surprised if this competition wasn't decided already by Martz about a week or so ago.

 
Just Turn Over had a decent game, despite throwing one of the worst INTs I've ever seen. I think JTO takes more chances and seems to play more on instinct than Smith. Shaun Hill flat out sucks, each of his passes look like a dead duck.
 
I disagree, drummer. I think that if they were wanting Smith to have a real chance of starting to begin the regular season, you would have seen him get first team reps in practice. That hasn't been happening. He wasn't getting those reps before his friend died, so I don't think he would have started last night regardless. I can't imagine them giving him the preseason week 3 start at this point, or the regular season week 1 start. Neither, apparently, can the local writers who follow the team. Anything is possible I suppose, but I'd be very surprised if this competition wasn't decided already by Martz about a week or so ago.
I don't think they can totally write off Smith as the starter yet. I doesn't make sense in the pre-season. I seriously believe that Nolan thought Hill could compete for this job. If Tollner was the OC, sure. But if Tollner was the OC, it still would have been Smith's job. The X factor in all this is Martz, and his offense. You have to give Smith a true shot at it, even though to our eyes, he doesn't look ready for it. A start against CHI will force Smith to step it up. People always throw the Urban Meyer quote about Smith, and how he needs some time to "get it", meaning an offense, to become the total package. I'm still waiting for him to get the game. The problem is that he has had to "get" 3 different offenses. Martz would have to strip him down to nothing, and build him the Million Dollar QB back up again. But he does deserve a shot at it. Nolan owes him that after what he did to him last season, despite what Martz wants.

Just Turn Over had a decent game, despite throwing one of the worst INTs I've ever seen. I think JTO takes more chances and seems to play more on instinct than Smith. Shaun Hill flat out sucks, each of his passes look like a dead duck.
49er fans were already greasing themselves up with the anointing oil after those games late last season, overlooking his noodle arm. I didn't buy into Hill at all.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
O'Sullivan is dreadful. The guy is an Arena League QB talent (no Warner references please). Alex is good as gone in nothing more than a $$ play.

This debacle is the reason I won't touch Frank Gore with a 10-foot pole in Round 1.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
In short, I wouldn't read too much into O'Sullivan starting this preseason game - although I agree he's in the lead in the QB contest and have changed my rankings to reflect. Now, if Smith starts preseason week 3 and stinks, or O'Sullivan starts preseason week 3 again, THEN I'm a lot more certain the 49ers are going to go with O'Sullivan for the start of 2008 - and I may move him up my QB board a tad as a result. But this week has been skewed by an unforeseen tragedy affecting Smith.
Mark, it looks like you have either missed or glossed over the fact that JTO hasn't just started one preseason game because Smith was gone due to his friend's suicide, but that he has been the starter in practice, getting all 1st team reps for 2 full weeks now and has started both preseason games. I'm glad you've changed your rankings. Anyone stubbornly holding to outdated notions of Smith being the starter and ranking these guys accordingly is simply burying his head in the sand, and to still be posting rankings showing Smith as starter is a disservice to subscribers. Research the news from any Bay Area paper you like - Chronicle, Merc, Press Democrat, whatever - and it'll become clear that JTO is the week one starter even though Nolan hasn't officially named him.
As I stated, I do think that O'Sullivan is in the lead - enough to reflect this in my rankings. Now, I give more weight to the funeral/depression scenario than some wish to on the boards - another poster in the Alex Smith tragedy thread asserted (and I believe what he wrote as it makes sense to me), the coaches were telling the press in SF all week long "don't read anything into it" when the press were asking why JTO was getting all the first team reps - this was before Smith revealed on Thursday what happened with the suicide. So, essentially as I read the situation, Smith was being given room to work through his grief by the coaching staff (not necessarily being shuffled aside for not meeting expectations, as you seem to imply in your post).All the above said, though, I think Smith would really have to show some spark and ability in this new offense during presason week 3 to get in the lineup early on in regular season. I'm not sold on O'Sullivan as the full-season starter, but then I wasn't high on Smith or Hill before O'Sullivan emerged either (the 2 were, I think, 32-33 on my board to start spring OTAs). In short, I'm not leaping to draft any of these guys for my fantasy teams, though I might take a flyer on one in a very large, deep bench league (unlikely, though, honestly).

 
Here is an article from Lowell Cohn, and his take on the QB situation:

In Martz's 49er boot camp, Smith must step up

Published: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 at 6:19 p.m.

Last Modified: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 at 6:20 p.m.

SANTA CLARA

I interviewed 49ers offensive coordinator Mike Martz Wednesday morning. I don’t know Martz, but I know this much about him. He has to turn around the Niners’ offense fast.

He has to find a starting quarterback, and make the passing game work, and rescue the 49ers from the embarrassment they have been. I wondered if he would be talkative, open. He is not open about who will be the starting quarterback, although all signs point to J.T. O’Sullivan — more on that in a moment. It is pointless to ask Martz who the starter will be because he won’t answer and he’s tired of being asked and changes the subject.

Please read the complete transcript of my lengthy interview with him on my blog, the Cohn Zohn. For the purposes of this column. I will talk about the Niners’ quarterbacks and what Martz is looking for.

To that end, I will start with a wide receiver, rookie Robert Ortiz. He missed a ball in practice and Martz went out of his skull, screaming, pointing. “Get the (freaking) ball,” Martz shouted. “Don’t let it drop.”

It is also known that Martz can be brutal in quarterback meetings, blunt, harsh.

I bring up this harshness because so much is at stake for the Niners. They need a good quarterback or they will fail again and everyone will believe — know — the coaches and the organization don’t have a clue. So, Martz is putting the pressure on his three quarterbacks.

O’Sullivan doesn’t seem to mind. O’Sullivan has rotten manners with the media. Everything is a confrontation or a snide comment and, in that sense, he has a baseball player’s personality, not a football player’s. From what I understand. he isn’t a sweetie pie with the other quarterbacks, either. This is competition and he wants to win.

This makes him a Martz kind of player. Spit in everyone’s eye. Be tough. Don’t give a damn. Play your heart out. This personality is especially important in a quarterback. When O’Sullivan misses a pass in practice, he gets mad. When Alex Smith misses a pass — I swear he’s missing more and more — he drops his head, looks defeated, crawls into himself.

For goodness sake, get mad, Alex. Don’t show defeat. Lift up your head. Be like O’Sullivan.

Smith is a better quarterback than O’Sullivan but he is losing this quarterback competition on character, nerve, guts or whatever you want to call it. And that’s a shame. If O’Sullivan wins, the Niners will have a limited quarterback who does a few things well. But they will have a quarterback with guts. You would prefer a quarterback with guts and limited talent to a quarterback with talent and limited guts.

Think about that, Alex.

Now, I’m going to do something I almost never do. I’m going to reproduce dialogue between Martz and me, lots of it. You will hear him explain his tough-guy philosophy. Then draw your own conclusions.

“You have got to put pressure on these guys (the players in camp) as much as you can,” he said, “and make them deal with it. We don’t have time, we only have three weeks. So if this guy has talent — and they all have talent — what you don’t know is if they’ve got enough heart, strength in their character (he made a fist) to deal with the stress of playing this game at a high level.

“Otherwise you have a guy who did really well in practice and you get in a game and he kind of disappears on you. I put as much pressure on them as I can and some of them you see them and they’re resilient to it and you don’t have to mess with them.

“(Rookie wide receiver) Josh Morgan’s an example. I never mess with Josh. But some of these kids they come in here, the learning curve is very short here. We don’t have a lot of time and they don’t understand it. To get that full knowledge of what they can do — quarterbacks, too — you’ve got to produce fire and then when camp is over I become the teacher I was raised to be. That’s something I learned by necessity. You’ve got to find ways to put the pressure on them. It’s not real comfortable for me to do, but that’s what you have to do.”

Q: I think part of what’s going on with quarterbacks is putting them under duress. I wish Alex Smith would tell someone to go (screw) himself, tell you to go (screw) yourself. It would be good for him.

A: “I’m not sure that reaction is the right reaction. That part is not, but the toughness part, the assertiveness in the situation is what I’m looking for, what I’m always looking for. I’m not specifically talking about Alex. I’m talking about all the players. To get angry – emotion’s not what I’m looking for. It’s attitude. Emotion, go (screw) yourself, that’s not important. I want them to be resilient. If they fail at something, they’re resilient enough to bounce back and go out and do it again.

“Sometimes, it’s a tough road. They have to fight their way through it. It’s not an easy lesson when things have been going good your whole career — all these guys have been very successful — and the NFL is an elite league of the world. If you want to be the elite of the elite, then there’s a certain mental toughness and attitude, if you will, that’s required. Without that, you can never achieve that level of excellence that you aspire to. It’s not that emotion I’m looking for, it’s the toughness.

“Joe Montana’s a good example. Joe was a tough guy, assertive. He was very competitive. He wasn’t intimidated by anything. He probably thought there wasn’t anything he couldn’t deal with. And that’s what you’re looking for. A lot of things can bombard a guy and make him second-guess himself. What we’re trying to do is make them think, ‘I can do this, get out of my way.’”

I want to repeat: Martz was not speaking about Smith. He was speaking in general about the boot-camp nature of training camp. But, come on, this is the ultimate test for Smith against O’Sullivan, an inferior practitioner of the quarterback craft.

Smith is being tested. He needs to pass the test. He can’t second-guess himself. (I think he does.) He needs to believe, really believe, “I can do this. Get out of my way, JTO.”
This is why Smith needs to start against CHI. He needs an ultimate gut check. If he falters, then they can move on with JTO, and pick high in next years draft.Hey, it's a trainwreck, but with Martz on board, at least it will an exciting one to watch.

 
This is a "slight" thread hijack, but where are all the "Shaun Hill is the much better QB" proponents that thought he was so great and would have the job locked up if given a shot going into this year? I don't mean that in a bad way, simply to remind ourselves that things change VERY quickly in the NFL and short stints of success, even during the regular season, are not enough to guarantee future success.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
This is a "slight" thread hijack, but where are all the "Shaun Hill is the much better QB" proponents that thought he was so great and would have the job locked up if given a shot going into this year? I don't mean that in a bad way, simply to remind ourselves that things change VERY quickly in the NFL and short stints of success, even during the regular season, are not enough to guarantee future success.
I've known, and have said so on this board, that since the day Martz was hired, Hill does not have the arm strength to run a Martz offense. Hill could have been a Nolan starter, a caretaker a la Dilfer in the Ravens years, but not in a Martz offense. In last year's wins Hill had good numbers because he made the safe passes. That won't cut it in an offense that requires aggressively leading receivers to spots and taking shots downfield.
 
This is a "slight" thread hijack, but where are all the "Shaun Hill is the much better QB" proponents that thought he was so great and would have the job locked up if given a shot going into this year? I don't mean that in a bad way, simply to remind ourselves that things change VERY quickly in the NFL and short stints of success, even during the regular season, are not enough to guarantee future success.
I've known, and have said so on this board, that since the day Martz was hired, Hill does not have the arm strength to run a Martz offense. Hill could have been a Nolan starter, a caretaker a la Dilfer in the Ravens years, but not in a Martz offense. In last year's wins Hill had good numbers because he made the safe passes. That won't cut it in an offense that requires aggressively leading receivers to spots and taking shots downfield.
I think the Martz hiring was a desperate move by Nolan, and I'm repeating myself in this thread on that. It's not a graduated move that will solidify the OC position, because Martz will get another serious look as an HC somewhere in the near future. The Yorks of course could replace Nolan with Martz, but I doubt they would hire Martz due to his past FO craziness in Ram's Park. The Yorks are probably well aware of that. They had just "promoted" Scot McGlouhan to GM, and I think Martz would want a lot of control of personnel if he was hired as HC. Nolan had absolute authority there, and still does, no matter how they re-arranged the deck chairs, so hiring Martz would put a thorn in ScotM's side, if he had to fire Nolan. Smith is ScotM's boy, so you can see how this is working out already. I think after the Hostler debacle, Nolan figured a high profile offensive mind like Martz would cure his bad decision in Hostler. It's really one extreme to the other. Martz's hiring has already raised the expectations high amongst the fan base. Fans are already blaming Nolan for starting JTO, when it's really Martz's call, and it should be. Here is a quote from Nolan about JTO:
But Nolan also gave O'Sullivan another public thumbs-up."It reinforces what I thought about him," Nolan said, "and that's real key."
I doubt he knew anything about what JTO could do. What does this all mean in regards to Hill? Matt Maiocco pointed out his pecking order, in regards to who is whose QB: ScotM : SmithNolan : HillMartz : JTO. Nolan didn't even know what Hill brought to the team until he had to start him due to Dilfer's concussion. He didn't want to start Hill when Dilfer was stinking it up before he got injured. I agree with you that Hill fits more into Nolan's idea of ball control offense. What's funny is that Nolan hired an OC that so far has took Hill completely out of the picture. I don't know how my posts fit into a FF players forecast, but all I can say is that the sky looks gloomier that normal in the City by the Bay.
 
It's now been announced by Nolan that JTO will start preseason game 3.
Little JTO, you're really lookin' awfultwo weeks in a row turnovers by the drawerfulwith this team its hard to get to the red zone,but due to you it ends up blown,C'mon and turn it on, wind it up, blow it out, JTOWa-wa... :popcorn: :popcorn:BTW--I agree with Drummer
 
Yeah I was reading the comments section from the Santa Rosa newspapers and fans there seem really unhappy. It was a lot of defending Alex Smith, trashing Mike Nolan, with a little bit of Raiders' fans starting trouble peppered in.
Bay Area talk radio is bad too regarding Nolan. When he first came to town, his self assured style was welcomed with open arms. Now folks view him as a lot of hot air and bad decisions. Losing will do that.I'm a SF / OAK homer so I keep up with the local stuff, but I'm a FF fan mostly and try to keep an overall perspective. It really looks like Nolan is deferring to Martz on the QB thing, and if O'Sullivan gets the call and fails it's on Martz. The whole bunch will be looking for jobs if this turns into a train wreck though, including Martz, Nolan, O'Sullivan, and Smith.

But the problem with Smith (according to SF Chronicle, who I work for) is that Martz absolutely requires making quick decisions and getting the ball out, throwing to spots and trusting that the WR will be there and open. Smith just hesitates and holds the ball way too long, waiting to see a WR actually open before he turns it loose. Too tentative, too afraid of mistakes. The Martz system keeps fewer players in to block, puts more guys out on routes, and the indecisiveness will get a QB killed. Even a QB like Warner and Bulger, who knew what they were doing in that system, got killed more than QBs in safer systems.

Smith, whether due to still not understanding the plays and routes, or lack of confidence, or whatever, has looked lost. He's currently just not startable. With preseason game 3 being the game where regular season starters are set, I just don't see Smith having the time to turn it around. On top of that, his best friend committed suicide a few days ago and he's lost more camp time due to that. And who knows where his head is with that going on now.
besides indecisiveness, won't a below average offensive line also get a QB killed in this system? JTO looks good now against plain vanilla Ds, but once the games are for real, and they try to blitz the crap out of him, how confident are you that the offensive line can provide the protection necessary?
 
Some news, and insights, from the local blog writers:

Matt Barrows

The 49ers had a couple of high-profile observers at practice today. Both John and Jed York were on the sideline through most of the session and were joined by chief contract negotiator Paraag Marathe midway through. The Yorks, of course, have plenty of money invested in two quarterbacks -- Alex Smith and Shaun Hill -- who appear destined to start the regular season on the sideline. After practice, Nolan was asked whether that investment figures into the team's decision on picking a quarterback.

Said Nolan: "This decision's going to be based on who we feel at this point gives us the best chance to win. That's what we'll do. But the other things ...." Later he was asked a similar question about concerns about salary-cap ramifications. "When you get into the long road, yes," he said. "But on the short term -- when you're just taking it one game at a time during the season -- no. But in the long haul, you do."
A couple of things that come to my mind about this: One: Smith's incentive $$$. From what I understand, if Smith doesn't start this season, the team saves a a lot of $$$ due to a incentive clause packaged in Smith's deal.

Two: But, IIRC, one of the things Nolan convinced the Yorks of, when he was trying to keep his job after last season, was that he would do everything he could to salvage both his relationship with Smith, and Smith's career as a QB. Now, he is the #2 QB behind a guy they don't know much of.

Some salary figures of the 3 QBs:

Alex Smith: $9.916 million

Shaun Hill: $1.7 million

J.T. O'Sullivan: $491,000

From Matt Maiocco's blog, about his roster predictions, and a juicy little tidbit, about JTO's contract situation:

Question: If you mean March 2, 2009, then does that mean that at the end of the season, any other team can sign O'Sullivan before March 2, 2009, when the 49ers are able to sign him? Don't the 49ers have some form of protection from that?

Instant 49ers: I wrote in an earlier blog that the 49ers are prohibited from signing O'Sullivan to a contract extension prior to March 2 (2009) because he signed a one-year veteran-minimum deal. Per league rules, he has to hit the free-agent market. No team can sign him prior to March 2. This has happened in the past, too. The 49ers worked out handshake agreements with Moran Norris and Joe Nedney, who were in identical situations in the past. Both Norris and Nedney re-signed with the 49ers shortly after the beginning of free agency in those years.

But there's added intrigue with this situation. Let's say O'Sullivan has a very good season and Mike Martz lands a head-coaching job elsewhere next year. Then, O'Sullivan can easily follow Martz to his new location. Then, the 49ers could be looking for a new coordinator and a new quarterback.
If the 49ers hit bottom again, you could have a situation where Nolan, Martz, Smith, and JTO are all gone next year. I don't know if any of this has any value to FF players, but it's pretty interesting stuff for 49er fans.ETA: On Ralph and Tom's KNBR show, Maiocco said that both coaches were in some sort of "panic" mode, and they think JTO gives them the best shot at winning now.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
A bit of Niner news regarding the qb situation and some other things:

JT - He looked OK. I mean just OK in the first quarter against the 1st string Green Bay DBs. Against the 2nd stringers he looked like a world beater. I liked his scrambling ability, although not Steve Young like, at least he was able to evade the defense. I do feel maybe he should consider sliding instead of trying to gain that extra yard with a head first plunge. I do like that JT gets the ball out quickly, but I worry against top flight DBs. On that INT to Woodson, he was looking straight at his intended target. Also before the 59yard pass to Morgan, I thought he was having problems with the deep ball.

Alex Smith - Alex seems to be below OK, I will not offer him excuses, he looks good with the check downs, but how sick are you of seeing that out of him. He underthrew receivers, and missed a wide-open Hill in the end zone. Yeah yeah maybe I couldn’t have gotten the ball to Hill either, but I am not the one fighting to be the #1 QB. That being said, JT needed the 2nd quarter and the Green Bay second string DBs to get going, so it is not fair to judge Alex based on 1 quarter of work. I really would have been more encouraged if he made some of those throws though. When Alex runs the team, I feel there is a lack of explosion. He is more likely to not lose the game for us rather than win the game.

Shaun Hill - I felt he overthrew some receivers, but because of Rossums TD return, he did not get enough reps as I would have liked.

O-line - I was very happy with the O-line. They looked good in pass protection and made the running backs job easier. Happy to see Jonas Jenning take the field, anyone got an over/under on how many games he will play for us this season?

Gore - Frank looks ready for the season. I like how he was hitting the hole. I also like what Martz is doing with him, having him line-up as a receiver, or motioning him out of the backfield. I hope they try to throw Frank some deep balls this season.

Foster - I think very highly of him backing up Frank. As much as I like Robinson, Deshaun is a proven commodity, and solidifies the position. I liked how he ran in the game, even jumping over a defender but i would have liked to see him punch it in with more authority.

Vernon Davis - He caught some nice passes early, but as he usually does, he vanishes. Also he needs to block better, that block he threw for Walker was sad.

Receivers - Which wideouts do you wanna keep? I am hoping for the following 6…Bruce, Johnson, Battle, Morgan, Hill, and Zeigler. I think the writing is on the wall for Lelie. Good to see Bruce out there, but I think he was only thrown to once, and may not be 100%. As the bandwagon is building steam, Morgan looks like a keeper ala Marques Colston. I hope they give this kid every opportunity to play when the real season starts. Also props to Jason Hill and Zeigler, our future in the wideout position is bright.

Defense - Ray McDonald looks like he was apply a good amount of pressure. Was this the product of Justin Smith? Overall, I liked the pressure the D-line was putting on Rodgers. Banta-Cain got some run against the 3rd stringers and produced, I hope he can get it going on against tougher competition. I am concerned about Spikes, I hope it is that he was just not in game shape yet or not used to the defensive schemes. The DBs were just ok, as much as I like Harris, he is getting to that age where they start slowing down and I am not big fan of Strickland and Spencer so here is hoping he can hold the fort for us this season.

Special Teams - They looked pretty good except in the 2nd half when they were giving up some long returns. Rossum got a late TD, but was not doing much until then. Here is hoping he can find pay dirt when it matters. Good news is at least he bring a certain credibility to our return game. I do question what they are doing with Schmitt? Aren’t we happy with the combo of Nedney and Lee?

From a local blogger/newswriter.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top