Lawrence Taylor (1 Viewer)

[houndirish]

I need to know what people other than Giant fans think on this subject. I've been arguing with my roommate (a Jets fan) about how good Lawrence Taylor truly was. I've been making the argument that Lawrence Taylor was the best linebacker ever because he had a skill package that no one else in the NFL has ever had, including today. My friend has made the argument that there are better linebackers in the game today and that LT is only considered so highly because he changed the game.

I just need to know what general NFL people think. What people that can be unbiased think of LT's place in history.

He was simply the greatest defensive player I ever saw. I love the Steel Curtain, the old Raiders, the '85-'86 Bears as teams, but Taylor was a force of nature. Reggie White is the only one who came close in my book. Teams had to gameplan for LT more than any other player. (Maybe the only exception to that is Deion, who is the ONLY shutdown corner in the last 20 years.)I am 37, so I have seen a great number of very good players, but Taylor was the best, most disruptive defensive player I ever saw.

Ditto

 

[BoulderBob]

Give Urlacher cocaine and steroids and he'd come close...

Wrong. Please try again.

Fine, give him meth instead...Either way, its pretty hard to compare to a roided-up coke head.

Might as well build a robot, cause we aint gonna see anything like LT for some time.

 

[Koya]

Give Urlacher cocaine and steroids and he'd come close...

Wrong. Please try again.

Fine, give him meth instead...Either way, its pretty hard to compare to a roided-up coke head.

Might as well build a robot, cause we aint gonna see anything like LT for some time.

True. But you have to remember, those days he was coked up, it might have been after 48 hours of straight partying with a team meeting on Sat slipped in somewhere - or not.

 

[On The Rocks]

Lawrence Taylor, Any comparisons today?

Kate Moss

 

[Boston]

If your roommate is comparing LT to Joey Porter he should be put on fan probation because he is beyond clueless.

LT is easily the best defensive player I have ever seen. That's not a knock on guys like Lott, Mean Joe, Lewis and Sanders but a testament on how incredibly dominant LT was. He was the centerpiece of two championships, changed how a position was played and made opposing coaches change their gameplans. I believe he also made Ron Jaworski wet his pants...

LT was the complete package. He was the fastest, strongest and smartest player. He could cover, play the run, rush with speed and rush with power. He also intimidated the hell out of other teams (he was a legit bad ###) so he was a mental force as well. There was nothing he couldn't do...and that includes blowing an 8 eight ball on Saturday and getting two sacks on Sunday.

 

[Mik789fl]

Taylor changed the way the position is played. There are outside backers today who play the game "like" him but none are the disruptive force LT was. Joe Gibbs once said Taylor was the only defensive player he had to taylor(pardon the pun) his offensive game plan around. He was an intimidating pass rusher but his real forte was chasing a play from the back-side,I've been a fan for a long time and I've never seen anyone,on a consisitent basis,get down the line of scrimmage as fast as Taylor could and be around the football. His stamina was amazing,he went full tilt on EVERY play. His personal life has been up and down but in my opinion no defensive player before or after Taylor can compare.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

There is only one man who knows the answer to this question.

That man is Joe Theisman.

 

[jgrangers2]

There is only one man who knows the answer to this question.

That man is Joe Theisman.

Yeah, I think Joe Theismann would know about LT better than anyone. I think they should have them doing color commentary together next year.

 

[Ack88]

LT is the best football player I have ever seen, period. An absolute menace with a nonstop motor. He could not be blocked. No LB I have seen even comes close.

 

[jgrangers2]

LT is the best football player I have ever seen, period. An absolute menace with a nonstop motor. He could not be blocked. No LB I have seen even comes close.

That means a lot coming from, I'm assuming, a Cowboys fan.

 

[Sheriff66]

Here are the palyers that had the most impact on the game and on their opposition everytime they took the field IMO (no particular order here):

LT

Barry

Sayers

Unitas

Brown

Deion

Lott

White

Munoz

Moss

Deacon

I probably forgot a few, but the point is that your friend needs to have himself looked at by a team of docs, one simply cannot provide him with the amount of attention that he deserves.

You do not have Mel Blount on this list ???? They had to change the rules because of him, changed the way the CB position was played....Joey is a very good OLB, but to say he is as good as LT is silly, your friend must be 15 years old....

 

[DoctorDetroit]

LT is the best football player I have ever seen, period. An absolute menace with a nonstop motor. He could not be blocked. No LB I have seen even comes close.

No way anyone cracked up or not comes close to LT. Best defensive player in the merger era if not ever.

 

[Koya]

If you want to find someone to compare LT too, your only bet right now is Tiger Woods.

 

[Chitown Mole]

Closest thing I've seen to LT is Derrick Thomas....and he was not the player LT was. I'm 42 and have seen a ton of NFL players in my day.

 

[Sidewinder16]

Shawne Merriman

It's premature to mention him in the same high regard as LT, however, Shawne Merriman was the first name that popped into my head. As a rookie, he averaged a sack per game down the stretch and at 6'4" & 275 pounds he's a freaking animal. If Merriman keeps working hard he has the skills, size and speed to be a very special player. One who is extremely capable of creating much havoc for opposing quarterbacks.

On the Pro Bowl skills competition, Tom Jackson and Berman were commenting on Merriman's build/physicality. Jackson said he hasn't been so impressed with a guys build and strength since LT.FWIW

 

[cstu]

Shawne Merriman

It's premature to mention him in the same high regard as LT, however, Shawne Merriman was the first name that popped into my head. As a rookie, he averaged a sack per game down the stretch and at 6'4" & 275 pounds he's a freaking animal. If Merriman keeps working hard he has the skills, size and speed to be a very special player. One who is extremely capable of creating much havoc for opposing quarterbacks.

You can't help watch Light's Out and not think of Taylor. He's not on that level yet, but he has the ability to terrorize QB's and also drop back in coverage. It also helps that he's in a system ideally suited for his skills.

 

[cstu]

Taylor changed the way the position is played. There are outside backers today who play the game "like" him but none are the disruptive force LT was. Joe Gibbs once said Taylor was the only defensive player he had to taylor(pardon the pun) his offensive game plan around. He was an intimidating pass rusher but his real forte was chasing a play from the back-side,I've been a fan for a long time and I've never seen anyone,on a consisitent basis,get down the line of scrimmage as fast as Taylor could and be around the football. His stamina was amazing,he went full tilt on EVERY play. His personal life has been up and down but in my opinion no defensive player before or after Taylor can compare.

Maybe it shouldn't matter, but knowing about Taylor's coke problem really diminishes him in my eyes. Easy to be "full tilt" on every play when you're coked up.

 

[Koya]

Taylor changed the way the position is played. There are outside backers today who play the game "like" him but none are the disruptive force LT was. Joe Gibbs once said Taylor was the only defensive player he had to taylor(pardon the pun) his offensive game plan around. He was an intimidating pass rusher but his real forte was chasing a play from the back-side,I've been a fan for a long time and I've never seen anyone,on a consisitent basis,get down the line of scrimmage as fast as Taylor could and be around the football. His stamina was amazing,he went full tilt on EVERY play. His personal life has been up and down but in my opinion no defensive player before or after Taylor can compare.

Maybe it shouldn't matter, but knowing about Taylor's coke problem really diminishes him in my eyes. Easy to be "full tilt" on every play when you're coked up.

That is a cop out excuse I think. For one, he wasnt "coked up" on every play. Second, if you want to claim he was, how easy is it to come off one or two straight days of being coked up, only to have 2 sakes while dismantling the opposition?

 

[Bri]

You have no way of knowing if Coke enhanced his play or was a detriment to it. He didn't know either, read his book.

 

[Purpulhippo999]

in response to Bri's questions:

derrick johnson looked fantastic in WEEK ONE against the jets, but beyond that he looked a little lost...i think he has great potential

 

[PMENFAN]

LT changed the league, because of the way Bill Belichick used him. He used Willie McGinest the same way, though McGinests skills aren't even close to LT's.

The way people are talking about him here, he was the waterboy running around, and that simply wasn't so. LT was great, but I don't see the chasm others do. Much of the dominance came because they also had Leonard Marshall, Jim Burt, Harry Carson and a number of other great D players to take care of in the front 7 of the Giants of the era.

LT didn't change the position, Bill Belichick did. He forced the 3 step drop, not the player. Again, he still uses it today.

I think Ray Lewis' dominance is moreso, because he controls the middle. Just like the Giant scheme was designed to put LT in position to make plays, so is the Ravens.

LT was great, and the first hybrid OLB/DE we saw, but let's not pretend that he was heads and shoulders above guys like Butkus, Lewis, Singletary, Reggie White, Deacon Jones. A place in history, to be sure, but if he was half as dominant as people are making him out to be, the Giants wouldn't have watched the 'Skins (83, 88, 92) make it to 3 SB's, with him playing (81-93), coming out of the same division. He was great, and dominant, but people are piling the accolades on a bit thick here.

A guiding force I always use when judging greatness is are they putting him in the position to be successful, and what is the supporting cast. LT had mounds of support here. It's why the Barry Sanders greatness is so impressive to me. He had horrible coaching and horrible talent around him, yet he still got it done.

As for the greatest FB player ever, I say John Elway.

 

[Mik789fl]

LT changed the league, because of the way Bill Belichick used him. He used Willie McGinest the same way, though McGinests skills aren't even close to LT's.

The way people are talking about him here, he was the waterboy running around, and that simply wasn't so. LT was great, but I don't see the chasm others do. Much of the dominance came because they also had Leonard Marshall, Jim Burt, Harry Carson and a number of other great D players to take care of in the front 7 of the Giants of the era.

LT didn't change the position, Bill Belichick did. He forced the 3 step drop, not the player. Again, he still uses it today.

I think Ray Lewis' dominance is moreso, because he controls the middle. Just like the Giant scheme was designed to put LT in position to make plays, so is the Ravens.

LT was great, and the first hybrid OLB/DE we saw, but let's not pretend that he was heads and shoulders above guys like Butkus, Lewis, Singletary, Reggie White, Deacon Jones. A place in history, to be sure, but if he was half as dominant as people are making him out to be, the Giants wouldn't have watched the 'Skins (83, 88, 92) make it to 3 SB's, with him playing (81-93), coming out of the same division. He was great, and dominant, but people are piling the accolades on a bit thick here.

A guiding force I always use when judging greatness is are they putting him in the position to be successful, and what is the supporting cast. LT had mounds of support here. It's why the Barry Sanders greatness is so impressive to me. He had horrible coaching and horrible talent around him, yet he still got it done.

As for the greatest FB player ever, I say John Elway.

I beg to differ. It was because of Taylor's skills that Bekichick could utilize the defenses he did and use Taylor the way he did. Yes,the rest of the Giants front 7 were very good at that time,but with Taylor taking up 2 and sometimes 3 blockers(and still making plays) guys like Carson and Banks could be freed up by schemes called by Belichick. Taylor's skills changed the position,Belichick and Parcells were just smart enough to realize that.

 

[jgrangers2]

LT changed the league, because of the way Bill Belichick used him. He used Willie McGinest the same way, though McGinests skills aren't even close to LT's.

The way people are talking about him here, he was the waterboy running around, and that simply wasn't so. LT was great, but I don't see the chasm others do. Much of the dominance came because they also had Leonard Marshall, Jim Burt, Harry Carson and a number of other great D players to take care of in the front 7 of the Giants of the era.

LT didn't change the position, Bill Belichick did. He forced the 3 step drop, not the player. Again, he still uses it today.

I think Ray Lewis' dominance is moreso, because he controls the middle. Just like the Giant scheme was designed to put LT in position to make plays, so is the Ravens.

LT was great, and the first hybrid OLB/DE we saw, but let's not pretend that he was heads and shoulders above guys like Butkus, Lewis, Singletary, Reggie White, Deacon Jones. A place in history, to be sure, but if he was half as dominant as people are making him out to be, the Giants wouldn't have watched the 'Skins (83, 88, 92) make it to 3 SB's, with him playing (81-93), coming out of the same division. He was great, and dominant, but people are piling the accolades on a bit thick here.

A guiding force I always use when judging greatness is are they putting him in the position to be successful, and what is the supporting cast. LT had mounds of support here. It's why the Barry Sanders greatness is so impressive to me. He had horrible coaching and horrible talent around him, yet he still got it done.

As for the greatest FB player ever, I say John Elway.

I completely disagree with your whole system point. Yes, LT had good players around him, but I think it was him who made the other players better, rather than the other way around. LT was constantly doubled, and sometimes, triple-teamed, yet he still managed to consistantly make the plays needed. As for Belichick's system, it was great, but it doesn't work without someone as talented as LT at the OLB position. Joe Gibbs changed his entire offensive scheme twice a year for LT, he has admitted that. The Joe Gibbs offense was born thanks to LT. He never gave LT the chance to get to the quarterback. Three step drop and the ball is out.I'll leave you with a story that I might have already posted here. One time, Joe Theismann, pre-snap, was looking around the field for #56. When he couldn't find him, he called timeout. It turned out LT was sitting on the sidelines taking the play off. That's the kind of player he was. He got into the minds of the opposing players and coaches on every play.

 

[PMENFAN]

Again I ask. If LT was as dominant as you guys portray, how do the Giants only make 2 Superbowls? Yes, they won both, but the Skins came out of the same division to win 3 in that span, and the Cowpatties one.

He was awesome, but keep it in perspective. To hear some of the talk about his dominance, there wasn't a TD scored while he was on the field. He was dominant, and did make it off of blocks, as all great players do, but he wasn't superhuman. Much like the Ravens system puts Ray Lewis in position to make plays, or the Pats do Willie McGinest, the Giants did with Taylor. Personally, I think Lewis is a better all around player. Taylor was a better pass rusher, but any other feat expected of a linebacker, Lewis is better at.

 

[Gravity]

As a JETS fan its hard to spit this out but LT was absolutely the best defensive player I have ever seen and possibly the best player I have ever seen.

Just completely Dominant.

Best play I have ever seen is probably his stop of Emmit on the goal line. You guys know what I mean.

 

[jgrangers2]

Again I ask. If LT was as dominant as you guys portray, how do the Giants only make 2 Superbowls? Yes, they won both, but the Skins came out of the same division to win 3 in that span, and the Cowpatties one.

He was awesome, but keep it in perspective. To hear some of the talk about his dominance, there wasn't a TD scored while he was on the field. He was dominant, and did make it off of blocks, as all great players do, but he wasn't superhuman. Much like the Ravens system puts Ray Lewis in position to make plays, or the Pats do Willie McGinest, the Giants did with Taylor. Personally, I think Lewis is a better all around player. Taylor was a better pass rusher, but any other feat expected of a linebacker, Lewis is better at.

That argument is ridiculous. It takes full teams to win, not singular players. How did the Oilers ever let anyone else win a cup in the 80's with Wayne Gretzky? How did the Lions and Barry Sanders not win a super Bowl if he was so dominant?LT chased down anyone with the ball, running backs included. He had better horizontal speed than any other linebacker in the history of the NFL. I don't know how many times I've seen LT run down a running back all the way on the other side of the field. Most OLB's aren't expected to do that. Ray Lewis is great, but I don't think that he ever got the same attention that LT had, the constant double and triple teams. Playing the middle, Ray Lewis would naturally be in on more plays than LT.

 

[jgrangers2]

As a JETS fan its hard to spit this out but LT was absolutely the best defensive player I have ever seen and possibly the best player I have ever seen.

Just completely Dominant.

Best play I have ever seen is probably his stop of Emmit on the goal line. You guys know what I mean.

My friend's a Jet fan, that's one of the reasons he refuses to believe that LT is the best.

 

[Workhorse]

Again I ask. If LT was as dominant as you guys portray, how do the Giants only make 2 Superbowls? Yes, they won both, but the Skins came out of the same division to win 3 in that span, and the Cowpatties one.

He was awesome, but keep it in perspective. To hear some of the talk about his dominance, there wasn't a TD scored while he was on the field. He was dominant, and did make it off of blocks, as all great players do, but he wasn't superhuman. Much like the Ravens system puts Ray Lewis in position to make plays, or the Pats do Willie McGinest, the Giants did with Taylor. Personally, I think Lewis is a better all around player. Taylor was a better pass rusher, but any other feat expected of a linebacker, Lewis is better at.

The system was created around LT, not the other way around. For a guy with his unique skillset, the Giants created that 3-4 where the front line was more of a "3+1". Ray Lewis is a fantastic football player to be sure (or at least, he was before he started getting dinged up) but LT was a better all around player.

You want a perfect illustration of how dominant LT was right off the bat?

1980: Giants ranked 27th in yardage allowed, and 24th in points allowed, en route to a 4-12 season. That team had defensive talent: Brad Van Pelt and Harry Carson as regular pro bowl caliber talent.

1981: LT's rookie year. The Giants leap to 4th in yardage allowed and 3rd in point allowed. Taylor was a one-man wrecking crew and the Giants vaulted to 9-7, even though they were still only the 22nd ranked offense in the league.

Ray Lewis didn't have nearly that kind of impact until Billick became head coach. In fact, those first few years of Lewis's career, the Ravens were an AWFUL defense.

 

[Koya]

Again I ask.  If LT was as dominant as you guys portray, how do the Giants only make 2 Superbowls?  Yes, they won both, but the Skins came out of the same division to win 3 in that span, and the Cowpatties one. 

He was awesome, but keep it in perspective.  To hear some of the talk about his dominance, there wasn't a TD scored while he was on the field.  He was dominant, and did make it off of blocks, as all great players do, but he wasn't superhuman.  Much like the Ravens system puts Ray Lewis in position to make plays, or the Pats do Willie McGinest, the Giants did with Taylor.  Personally, I think Lewis is a better all around player.  Taylor was a better pass rusher, but any other feat expected of a linebacker, Lewis is better at.

Taylor is in a sphere that Lewis never knew. You seem to speak from experience - may I ask how much of LT's career you saw/watched? The guy was so head and shoulders above everyone - it was HE who made Gary Reasons a really good LB.

Yeah, Gary Reasons.

Sure LT had some great players around him, but he was a better LB than Montana was a QB - and Montana is top 3 mind you.

Speaking of Montana, you blame LT for "only" winning 2 superbowls. I guess HoF coach Gibbs and Joe Montana's 9er's not to mention one of if not the best overall defense ever in the Bears have nothing to do with that.

If an LT came around today, when teams are unable to stockpile as many greats as those old Bears, or those 9ers, LT would be able to put a clinic on almost weekly - heck, he did so against some of the best teams ever back in the day.

You say how Belichick "made" LT - I ask you... how many players does it take to even get close (and not that close) to what LT brings you? For your three step and there result ala Beli, you need disguised blitzes with a really smart LBs to read the play and watch it develop, some speed from a DE or OLB to rush the passer, and a great leader in the defensive backfield and also the LB core to be able to recognize and pursue on both pass and run plays.

So yeah, Beli can bring a little of what LT brought - he only needs about 4-6 players to do it now. And it still doesnt work nearly as well.

Now, the Giants are my fav team, but the Ravens are #2. I believe Lewis might be the best D player of his era.

But he could not hold LT's jockstrap. LT = different universe. The only comparison I can think of in football is Jim Brown.

He wasnt just the best. He was literally above the rest, in everyway. Didnt do some things better than everyone, he did everything so much better than anyone it is still hard to believe.

Luckily, we have tapes/video to remind us. And the accounts of those who faced him.

 

[Bri]

You say how Belichick "made" LT - I ask you... how many players does it take to even get close (and not that close) to what LT brings you?  For your three step and there result ala Beli, you need disguised blitzes with a really smart LBs to read the play and watch it develop, some speed from a DE or OLB to rush the passer, and a great leader in the defensive backfield and also the LB core to be able to recognize and pursue on both pass and run plays.

I believe Arnsparger was brought in by Parcells after his first horrid season as a coach and how they used LT was his baby.I'd also say that a LB like LT allowed BB to try things/schemes no other defensive coach could and that may have been the start in BB's wonderful creativity.

 

[56]

This thread should have been a poll, with the choices:

A) YES- LT was clearly the best defensive player ever to step on any field.

B) NO- I have no idea what I am talking about. Please refrain from taking me seriously ever again.

There is no comparison, question or debate. None. LT might even be the only undisputed champion in terms of "Greatest Ever" sports arguments.

Seriously, you say Mantle, I say Mayes. You say Jabbar, I say Chamberlain. You say Howe, I say Gretzky, etc. etc. and on and on until someone says LT, to which the correct response is silence.

 

[jgrangers2]

This thread should have been a poll, with the choices:

A) YES- LT was clearly the best defensive player ever to step on any field.

B) NO- I have no idea what I am talking about. Please refrain from taking me seriously ever again.

There is no comparison, question or debate. None. LT might even be the only undisputed champion in terms of "Greatest Ever" sports arguments.

Seriously, you say Mantle, I say Mayes. You say Jabbar, I say Chamberlain. You say Howe, I say Gretzky, etc. etc. and on and on until someone says LT, to which the correct response is silence.

I think that there is an argument for guys like Butkus, Ronnie Lott, Mike Singletary or even Deion Sanders. However, 90% of genuine NFL fans will probably tell you that it's Lawrence Taylor. That's judging from the general reaction to this thread.

 

[jgrangers2]

I've shown my friend what most of you true, longtime football fans have said about LT. Yet, he still won't listen. He's discrediting everything that pretty much doesn't say he's right. He's listening to the guys who talk about Ray Lewis and that's about it, even though they're the vast minority. Anyway, thanks for your guys help on this. I have learned much more about LT than I previously knew.

 

[radballs.]

As for the other linebackers, sure he had Carson and Banks (not to mention Pepper Johnson) but if you took LT out of that mix, those guys weren't nearly as productive.

I think you're mistaken. I think they were effective and because of that many people wanted Mara+Co to get rid of troublemaker LT when he was suspended.

Didn't read the whole thread yet and LT definitely opened up things for his defensive teammates, but Banks was an ### whupper in '86. I think the '86 Giants are the second best defensive team ever behind the '85 Bears, but LT wasn't the only thing making that engine run.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

None........nobody in the NFL can compare to him. There are some who had parts of his game at times.........but nobody can bring it like he could daily, weekly, and yearly.

 

[jgrangers2]

As for the other linebackers, sure he had Carson and Banks (not to mention Pepper Johnson) but if you took LT out of that mix, those guys weren't nearly as productive.

I think you're mistaken. I think they were effective and because of that many people wanted Mara+Co to get rid of troublemaker LT when he was suspended.

Didn't read the whole thread yet and LT definitely opened up things for his defensive teammates, but Banks was an ### whupper in '86. I think the '86 Giants are the second best defensive team ever behind the '85 Bears, but LT wasn't the only thing making that engine run.

Guys like Banks and Carson were great linebackers, but LT was the heart and soul of that team. Take him out and that defense gets much worse. Just look at the numbers after he got there. The Giant moved up something like 20 spots in total defense in his first year.

 

[Sea Bass]

Lafu Tatufu, aka LT3